US Treasury guidance could stop Apple from recouping Irish taxes at home

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in General Discussion
The U.S. Treasury Department on Thursday issued new legal guidance that might prevent Apple from recouping any back taxes owed in Ireland by claiming them against taxes it would normally pay in America.




"We are closing another tax loophole that contributes to the erosion of our tax base," said the Treasury's Assistant Secretary for Tax Policy, Mark Mazur, in a statement seen by Reuters. The guidance limits the scope with which multinational corporations can apply to have foreign tax credits count against their U.S. taxes.

The European Commission recently concluded that Irish tax deals with Apple constituted illegal state aid, and ordered the country to collect $14.5 billion in back taxes from the Cupertino, Calif., company. Both Apple and the Irish government are planning to appeal the decision, the latter because it's worried about losing appeal with foreign businesses. Apple has already made commitments to stay in the country.

Although the Irish government has since moved to close some loopholes, for many years Apple was able to funnel billions in international revenue and pay minimal taxes. In 2014, the iPhone maker paid just 0.005 percent on its European profits, a minute fraction of Ireland's standard corporate tax rate.

While it's uncertain if the new Treasury guidance will impact Apple, a spokesperson for the agency specifically mentioned wanting to counter credits companies might claim after state aid investigations.
dysamoriasingularity
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 46
    rob53rob53 Posts: 1,867member
    Biting the hand that feeds you. Apple pays a ton of taxes already in the US and the greedy government wants more. Why don't they go after all those 1%'s who find all sorts of loopholes to pay next to nothing? Of wait, it's easier to just go after Apple.

    Can you point me to the actual amount of taxes Apple paid Ireland in 2014? I don't want the numbers by the corrupt EU commission, I want Ireland's numbers.

    As for state aid, I see every state in the US making various deals with all corporations to locate in their state. Are these forms of legal state aid or just good business?
    edited September 2016 radster360davennolamacguyjony0badmonk
  • Reply 2 of 46
    e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,071member
    Title is wrong, it would just delay the tax recoup until Apple brings the taxed money back to the US.
    anantksundaramwreighven
  • Reply 3 of 46
    Good. Either pay your effing taxes or reduce your tax burden by reinvesting in R&D.
    dysamoriaronn
  • Reply 4 of 46
    rob53 said:
    Biting the hand that feeds you. Apple pays a ton of taxes already in the US and the greedy government wants more. Why don't they go after all those 1%'s who find all sorts of loopholes to pay next to nothing? Of wait, it's easier to just go after Apple.

    Can you point me to the actual amount of taxes Apple paid Ireland in 2014? I don't want the numbers by the corrupt EU commission, I want Ireland's numbers.

    As for state aid, I see every state in the US making various deals with all corporations to locate in their state. Are these forms of legal state aid or just good business?
    They don't pay a ton of taxes. Relative to their massive win fall profits they pay the bare minimum the current tax code allows with all its loop-holes. Close the loop-holes and Apple would invest ten fold more domestically than pay those taxes. That would produce far more growth than what is happening. Repeat and rinse to GE and everyone else tax dodging.
    dysamoriaronn
  • Reply 5 of 46
    sricesrice Posts: 112member
    Wow, thats some serious BS US Treasury.  So I guess hell will freeze over before AAPL brings its cash home -- cause they sure aren't doing to be double taxed on that money.  Bunch o' dummies.
    badmonk
  • Reply 6 of 46
    rob53 said:
    Biting the hand that feeds you. Apple pays a ton of taxes already in the US and the greedy government wants more. Why don't they go after all those 1%'s who find all sorts of loopholes to pay next to nothing? Of wait, it's easier to just go after Apple.

    Can you point me to the actual amount of taxes Apple paid Ireland in 2014? I don't want the numbers by the corrupt EU commission, I want Ireland's numbers.

    As for state aid, I see every state in the US making various deals with all corporations to locate in their state. Are these forms of legal state aid or just good business?
    They don't pay a ton of taxes. Relative to their massive win fall profits they pay the bare minimum the current tax code allows with all its loop-holes. Close the loop-holes and Apple would invest ten fold more domestically than pay those taxes. That would produce far more growth than what is happening. Repeat and rinse to GE and everyone else tax dodging.
    Groan. Not again. When you pay more than -- or can point to a person or a business that pays more than -- the 'bare minimum' that is legally required, please come back and tell us. Until then, the intellectually honest thing to do would be to stay quiet on this topic.
    davennolamacguyjony0badmonk
  • Reply 7 of 46

    e1618978 said:
    Title is wrong, it would just delay the tax recoup until Apple brings the taxed money back to the US.
    Spot on. Otherwise, this will be challenged in court by thousands of US companies (and then government will likely lose, since it would upend the bargain implicit in pretty much everything in the tax code).

    The issue will be moot within a year, since Cook has promised to bring a lot of it back. I am guessing that Apple will bring enough back to be able to take a tax credit for any additional amounts paid to the EU. This is a fight between the EU and Ireland (and now between the EU and the US), and Apple, caught in the middle, is simply being unfairly and egregiously maligned.

    (Btw, cue the handout-seekers that will inevitable show up in this thread).
    edited September 2016 ai46cwingrav
  • Reply 8 of 46
    rob53 said:
    Biting the hand that feeds you. Apple pays a ton of taxes already in the US and the greedy government wants more. Why don't they go after all those 1%'s who find all sorts of loopholes to pay next to nothing? Of wait, it's easier to just go after Apple.

    Can you point me to the actual amount of taxes Apple paid Ireland in 2014? I don't want the numbers by the corrupt EU commission, I want Ireland's numbers.

    As for state aid, I see every state in the US making various deals with all corporations to locate in their state. Are these forms of legal state aid or just good business?
    They don't pay a ton of taxes. Relative to their massive win fall profits they pay the bare minimum the current tax code allows with all its loop-holes. Close the loop-holes and Apple would invest ten fold more domestically than pay those taxes. That would produce far more growth than what is happening. Repeat and rinse to GE and everyone else tax dodging.
    I'm pretty sure Apple doesn't have any windfall profits to be taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windfall_profits_tax
  • Reply 9 of 46
    In 2014, the iPhone maker paid just 0.005 percent on its European profits, a minute fraction of Ireland's standard corporate tax rate.

    This should say "According to the EU report and specifically refuted by Tim Cook, ..." He's said flat out that he has no idea how they came up with that completely erroneous 0.005 percent figure.
    wreighvenai46cwingrav
  • Reply 10 of 46
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 18,599member

    e1618978 said:
    Title is wrong, it would just delay the tax recoup until Apple brings the taxed money back to the US.
    Spot on. Otherwise, this will be challenged in court by thousands of US companies (and then government will likely lose, since it would upend the bargain implicit in pretty much everything in the tax code).

    The issue will be moot within a year, since Cook has promised to bring a lot of it back. I am guessing that Apple will bring enough back to be able to take a tax credit for any additional amounts paid to the EU. This is a fight between the EU and Ireland (and now between the EU and the US), and Apple, caught in the middle, is simply being unfairly and egregiously maligned.

    (Btw, cue the handout-seekers that will inevitable show up in this thread).
    I don't believe he's promised to bring back a single penny yet has he? If my reading was correct anything Apple might "bring home", and what Mr. Cook was referring to, is predicated on a corporate tax holiday next year isn't it? No holiday then maybe nothing is repatriated. 
    edited September 2016 ronn
  • Reply 11 of 46
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,360member
    Good. Either pay your effing taxes or reduce your tax burden by reinvesting in R&D.
    What are you, a communist or something?

    Apple pays what it owes. It is under no obligation to pay more than what's required under the law.

    Apple is not a charity, it is a for profit corporation.


    teejay2012nolamacguyjony0badmonk
  • Reply 12 of 46
    "Handout-seekers" being people that think corporations and wealthy citizens should pay more into the system, calling it "socialism", "communism", or other Cold War propaganda nonsense. [rolls eyes]
    gatorguysingularity
  • Reply 13 of 46
    Love Apple products but you do shady shit, you gotta pay. Hiding all their money and screwing the nation that makes their billions possible is some seriously shady shit. 

    They got the money, heck I hope the government drops the gavel on them and Google and Facebbol and every rich SOB that screws us. Fuck that shit.

    ronn
  • Reply 14 of 46
    apple ][ said:
    Good. Either pay your effing taxes or reduce your tax burden by reinvesting in R&D.
    What are you, a communist or something?

    Apple pays what it owes. It is under no obligation to pay more than what's required under the law.

    Apple is not a charity, it is a for profit corporation.


    Yeah and...
    that doesn't change one damn thing. Pay what you owe instead of raising debt to pay dividends. Seriously fucked up morals and hopefully the justice dept comes and smacks some sense into them with some serious penalties. Like BAMM!
    ronn
  • Reply 15 of 46
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 2,373moderator
    sog35 said:
    rob53 said:
    Biting the hand that feeds you. Apple pays a ton of taxes already in the US and the greedy government wants more. Why don't they go after all those 1%'s who find all sorts of loopholes to pay next to nothing? Of wait, it's easier to just go after Apple.

    Can you point me to the actual amount of taxes Apple paid Ireland in 2014? I don't want the numbers by the corrupt EU commission, I want Ireland's numbers.

    As for state aid, I see every state in the US making various deals with all corporations to locate in their state. Are these forms of legal state aid or just good business?
    They don't pay a ton of taxes. Relative to their massive win fall profits they pay the bare minimum the current tax code allows with all its loop-holes. Close the loop-holes and Apple would invest ten fold more domestically than pay those taxes. That would produce far more growth than what is happening. Repeat and rinse to GE and everyone else tax dodging.
    Apple paid 25% tax rate company wide in 2015

    So STFU about Apple not paying taxes.

    So is 25% low?

    Well those profits Apple makes goes to shareholders who have to pay anywhere from 15-39% taxes on dividends or capital gains.

    So Apple owners end up paying 35-50% tax rates. So STFU.
    It's not even Apple owners who pay.  All taxes are paid by consumers.  Businesses simply set prices to cover all business expenses, and that includes taxes.  A company like Apple, with products in such demand as they are, have more leverage than any to pass along tax expenses to its customers.  
    ronne1618978
  • Reply 16 of 46
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 2,373moderator
    qwwera said:
    Love Apple products but you do shady shit, you gotta pay. Hiding all their money and screwing the nation that makes their billions possible is some seriously shady shit. 

    They got the money, heck I hope the government drops the gavel on them and Google and Facebbol and every rich SOB that screws us. Fuck that shit.

    That's some seriously shady shit hiding your earnings in a 401(K) account.  

    Because you do know that delaying repatriation of foreign earnings is essentially the same as holding a portion of your earnings in a 401(K). Both are perfectly legal.  Both make sense as they afford the owner of the money to defer a tax obligation (not avoid, not dodge, not cheat).  Defer.  Perfectly legally.  

    You might have issue with the Irish tax structure that allowed Apple and other businesses to pay a low tax rate to Ireland, but that's a totally separate issue versus Apple holding foreign revenues and earnings overseas. Totally different.  You know that, right?
    edited September 2016 e1618978ai46jony0
  • Reply 17 of 46
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 18,599member
    qwwera said:
    Love Apple products but you do shady shit, you gotta pay. Hiding all their money and screwing the nation that makes their billions possible is some seriously shady shit. 

    They got the money, heck I hope the government drops the gavel on them and Google and Facebbol and every rich SOB that screws us. Fuck that shit.

    That's some seriously shady shit hiding your earnings in a 401(K) account.  

    Because you do know that delaying repatriation of foreign earnings is essentially the same as holding a portion of your earnings in a 401(K). Both are perfectly legal.  Both make sense as they afford the owner of the money to defer a tax obligation (not avoid, not dodge, not cheat).  Defer.  Perfectly legally.  

    You might have issue with the Irish tax structure that allowed Apple and other businesses to pay a low tax rate to Ireland, but that's a totally separate issue versus Apple holding foreign revenues and earnings overseas. Totally different.  You know that, right?
    I'll assume you were unaware that Apple did not make any allowance for even deferred taxes on upwards of $100B in "overseas profits".  That's according to Apple themselves which would certainly give at least the impression they were avoiding/dodging corporate taxes on nearly half their cash stash. I wouldn't call it cheating tho as it does look as tho whatever tax avoidance structure they used was legal. 
    edited September 2016 qwwera
  • Reply 18 of 46
    rcfarcfa Posts: 689member
    People who don't know corporate and tax law should just shut the f* up.
    Apple is legally obliged to pay the least taxes possible and maximize profits, or else they open themselves up to shareholders law suits.
    The only people to blame are the legislators for writing the tax laws; but those are the people crying the loudest to deflect from their responsibility, so they can continue and continue taking lobbyists money.

    As far as US corporations go, Apple pays a lot of taxes, not just in absolute terms, but also in percentage terms; some huge, profitable corporations literally pay ZERO taxes, but people keep picking on Apple, because it makes for better headlines piggybacking one's articles on a high name recognition brand.
    edited September 2016 ai46palominenolamacguyjony0
  • Reply 19 of 46
    rcfa said:
    People who don't know corporate and tax law should just shut the f* up.
    Apple is legally obliged to pay the least taxes possible and maximize profits, or else they open themselves up to shareholders law suits.
    The only people to blame are the legislators for writing the tax laws; but those are the people crying the loudest to deflect from their responsibility, so they can continue and continue taking lobbyists money.

    As far as US corporations go, Apple pays a lot of taxes, not just in absolute terms, but also in percentage terms; some huge, profitable corporations literally pay ZERO taxes, but people keep picking on Apple, because it makes for better headlines piggybacking one's articles on a high name recognition brand.
    ...You mean you THINK people don't know corporate greed.
  • Reply 20 of 46
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 18,599member
    rcfa said:
    People who don't know corporate and tax law should just shut the f* up.
    Apple is legally obliged to pay the least taxes possible and maximize profits, or else they open themselves up to shareholders law suits.
    I keep reading posts saying that but is it true? Honest question because I don't think it is. 

    EDIT: Nevermind. It is not true. Corporations are not required to maximize profits. Instead they are to operate in the best interests of the shareholders.  Look into the business judgment rule (sometimes called doctrine) which pretty much guarantees any shareholder filing a lawsuit over Apple paying taxes would quickly see his lawsuit dismissed as long as Apple's directors weren't doing so for personal gain.

    Perhaps you don't know corporate and tax law as clearly as you thought you did. 
    edited September 2016 singularity
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