President-elect Trump considers potential Apple manufacturing in US a 'real achievement'

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  • Reply 21 of 133
    schlack said:
    But if he succeeds in brining manufacturing back but companies use mostly robots and automation to be competitive globally, what has Trump really achieved jobs wise? Don't get me wrong, I think we should have manufacturing capabilities built up here, even if automated, it's good for economics and national security, but does it directly help with jobs as much as Trump thinks?
    I would almost argue that maintaining trade with China, especially on devices like phones rather than critical things like oil, will be better for national security. China is less likely to do anything silly if they are relying on the US for the employment of millions of factory workers. It's difficult to apply sanctions to a country you have no interaction with.
    patchythepiratebaconstangpalomine
  • Reply 22 of 133
    rob53 said:
    Trump is missing the point. It's not possible because there aren't enough people with the necessary skills. One example previously talked about by Cook were tool & die makers, an essential part of any product assembly (where you're making a large number of devices). People just aren't going into this trade in the US simply because most products are made overseas. There's no job market.

    Is Trump going to allow Apple to bring in thousands of foreign workers because there aren't enough in the US? Is he going to create incentives for people in the US to choose these as a career? Will he allow Apple to delay manufacturing until such time that there are enough people in the US trained in the various disciplines required (which would take years)?

    This is not something you can do overnight (if you can at all).
    They certainly are "enough people with the necessary skills". What isn't available is the amount of those people at a low enough price that would seem acceptable to most companies when the same task can be accomplished for a lower price elsewhere.
    No there aren't. The manufacturing process for electronic devices doesn't take a college graduate, it takes someone willing to stand/sit on an assembly line and do menial tasks. All the people in Detroit know about this type of work but they worked on larger things. Mobile devices are small and take people who are able to deal with small things. It also takes a lot of people, like 50K or more, who can come and do the work for a fixed period of time before moving to another electronics assembly firm. The US has too many MBAs and other "workers" who could never do these jobs. It's just like all the gardeners and field workers Trump wants to send back across the border. Americans choose not to do this type of work, especially without at least minimum wage and a health and retirement plan. 

    The worst thing about Trump's statement is this one, "Tim, you know one of the things that will be a real achievement for me is when I get Apple to build a big plant in the United States, or many big plants in the United States," which shows he really doesn't care about supporting the country only getting his "star" on Pennsylvania Ave. The President is supposed to be concerned about the people of the US not themselves. All his other hyperbole shows he's simply going to try and do whatever he can to promote big business, including his own, at the expense of all the citizens, including all those who voted for him. 
    You obviously live in a large city. There are tons of people living outside cities than can do those very things. The problem isn't the skills, it's the cost. American minimum wage laws, for example, practically makes it impossible for labor cost in the US to ever become price competitive to places elsewhere. The oversaturation of MBA and other college degrees is trait of large cities.
    edited November 2016 SpamSandwich
  • Reply 23 of 133
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,007member
    Why there is no mention of Mac Pro?  Isn't it manufactured in US?  Am I out of the loop? Is it a flop? 
    tallest skilargonautbaconstang
  • Reply 24 of 133
    rob53 said:
    Trump is missing the point. It's not possible because there aren't enough people with the necessary skills. One example previously talked about by Cook were tool & die makers, an essential part of any product assembly (where you're making a large number of devices). People just aren't going into this trade in the US simply because most products are made overseas. There's no job market.

    Is Trump going to allow Apple to bring in thousands of foreign workers because there aren't enough in the US? Is he going to create incentives for people in the US to choose these as a career? Will he allow Apple to delay manufacturing until such time that there are enough people in the US trained in the various disciplines required (which would take years)?

    This is not something you can do overnight (if you can at all).
    They certainly are "enough people with the necessary skills". What isn't available is the amount of those people at a low enough price that would seem acceptable to most companies when the same task can be accomplished for a lower price elsewhere.
    No there aren't. The manufacturing process for electronic devices doesn't take a college graduate, it takes someone willing to stand/sit on an assembly line and do menial tasks. All the people in Detroit know about this type of work but they worked on larger things. Mobile devices are small and take people who are able to deal with small things. It also takes a lot of people, like 50K or more, who can come and do the work for a fixed period of time before moving to another electronics assembly firm. The US has too many MBAs and other "workers" who could never do these jobs. It's just like all the gardeners and field workers Trump wants to send back across the border. Americans choose not to do this type of work, especially without at least minimum wage and a health and retirement plan. 

    The worst thing about Trump's statement is this one, "Tim, you know one of the things that will be a real achievement for me is when I get Apple to build a big plant in the United States, or many big plants in the United States," which shows he really doesn't care about supporting the country only getting his "star" on Pennsylvania Ave. The President is supposed to be concerned about the people of the US not themselves. All his other hyperbole shows he's simply going to try and do whatever he can to promote big business, including his own, at the expense of all the citizens, including all those who voted for him. 
    You obviously live in a large city. There are tons of people living outside cities than can do those very things. The problem isn't the skills, it's the cost. American minimum wage laws, for example, practically makes it impossible for labor cost in the US to ever become price competitive to places elsewhere. The oversaturation of MBA and other college degrees is trait of large cities.
    So how would abolishing or temporary waiver of the minimum wage play out economically? disregard the political effects for the time being 
    baconstang
  • Reply 25 of 133
    What an idiot. If he truly believes that..

    Ugh.
    hlee1169baconstangsinophiliapalominehmmjony0
  • Reply 26 of 133
    FatmanFatman Posts: 313member
    Bring manufacturing back home to the US - even if the factories are run by robots. We've been handing China our technology plans and manufacturing IP for decades to a point where they are more knowledgeable than the US. It's a shame. Easier said than done - incentives should be given to educational institutions that encourage design, fabrication, manufacturing, logistics, procurement, operations, etc. Otherwise we will continue to be a nation of services - flipping burgers made on Chinese grills using Chinese meat!
    tallest skil
  • Reply 27 of 133
    What an idiot. If he truly believes that..

    Ugh.
    That he is. But all he had to do was get up on stage and say make America great again and all the kool-aid drinkers drank it up.
    singularitymazda 3sroundaboutnowhlee1169baconstangsinophiliahmmjony0
  • Reply 28 of 133
    Owning Apple stock is turning into nothing but bad luck. Apple seems to be everyone's target as to what has gone wrong with America. Apple is no different from any of the other tech companies having products manufactured and assembled overseas. Wall Street is constantly on Apple's back due to declining profit margins and bringing manufacturing to America is going to put a huge burden on Apple's profit machine. It appears as though Apple's share price might be heading toward the $80 range if this nonsense keeps up. Of all the tech companies on the planet, Trump just has to go after Apple. I'm sure there must be plenty of American companies using overseas employees. Trump is getting his revenge on Apple because Tim Cook was supporting Hillary for president. Nice going, Tim.
    hlee1169
  • Reply 29 of 133
    Trump is missing the point. It's not possible because there aren't enough people with the necessary skills. One example previously talked about by Cook were tool & die makers, an essential part of any product assembly (where you're making a large number of devices). People just aren't going into this trade in the US simply because most products are made overseas. There's no job market.

    Is Trump going to allow Apple to bring in thousands of foreign workers because there aren't enough in the US? Is he going to create incentives for people in the US to choose these as a career? Will he allow Apple to delay manufacturing until such time that there are enough people in the US trained in the various disciplines required (which would take years)?

    This is not something you can do overnight (if you can at all).
    I completely agree. We also have to replicate the components supply chain right here -- flying the hundreds of different pieces over from Asia to assemble here is not only expensive, it is also prone to all sorts of logistical risks. Incidentally, given the extremely low unemployment in the US currently, we don't have enough of a labor pool to draw from so as to be able to achieve any reasonable scale.
    hlee1169
  • Reply 30 of 133

    vvswarup said:
    Trump is barking up the wrong tree. It's not in Tim Cook's hands where iPhones are made. People like to think Apple closed down its American factories and moved them to China to save money. That's not what happened. Apple closed down every single one of its factories in the entire world. Apple doesn't want to be in manufacturing. Apple designs all the components for its devices. It then pays component manufacturers to make them according to Apple's specifications. Those component manufacturers are located all over the world. Some of them are even in the USA.

    Bottom line is that Apple cannot "move manufacturing back to the USA" because it doesn't own any manufacturing plants to begin with. 
    But Apple does want to manufacture it's own products if it reaches cost parity with outsourcing it to others.
    Achieving cost parity will be impossibly difficult.
    hlee1169
  • Reply 31 of 133
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,007member
    China reacted strongly because Trump threatens to impose 45% tariff.  China hide the fact it has been heavily taxing iPhone causing iPhone to lose market share to domestic copycats. 
    tallest skilpalomine
  • Reply 32 of 133
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    Of course, they have to plan contingencies just in case he goes "full retard" (sic), but that doesn't mean it would be a good thing for Apple or even the US.

    Considering high tariffs would be the only real way of forcing Apple to do this and the incredible implications on the rest of the supply chain,
    and the logistical straight jacket this would entail for no benefit to either the USA (either low paying jobs or robotics),
    Apple clients or even those few workers working in those fucking factories,

    Also, lets not forget that if there were tariffs on foreign goods, there would also be tariffs on those manufactured US goods too.
    Trade wars worked so well in the 1930s that all sort of trade treaties were signed post WWII

    The important thing is:  would doing this actually be beneficial for the US. The answer is almost certainly NO.

    As a segway,

    Just reading his assertions a president cannot have a conflict of interest (he can, its just the remedies are very very few).
    He's going to fucking enrich himself and all his cronies directly from the US treasury, cut out the middleman entirely..

    He's an amoral sociopath and the people who will be most hurt will be his own voters which is entirely fitting since this is the GOP mode of operation.
    edited November 2016 taniwhasinophiliapalomine
  • Reply 33 of 133
    evilution said:
    If you get robots to make the products, the costs shouldn't be much higher. Plus you get less leaks.
    Steven Job's ultimate vision, dating back to his time with NeXT, was to have machines building machines, so I bet Apple has been investing heavily into supply chain automation (logistics automation). The Liam is probably one of the manifestation of this.
    All of our NeXTStation and NeXTCube systems assembled were fully automated back in 1991. This didn't lower the cost of the machines. it was entertaining for investors to see, but the cost of the main components made by third parties [first Optical Disc drive, etc] were insanely high, thus destroying any chance of NeXTSTEP making any impact on the industry.

    When we went to Apple Steve never once discussed repeating that mistake. Improving costs by the third parties have driven price points down as innovation went up. It's one of the main reason Apple invests so much into patents on manufacturing.
    patchythepirate
  • Reply 34 of 133
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,007member
    foggyhill said:
    STFU asshole president, man I am already tired of his shit and he's not even in power.
    Have you read his craptastic jerkoff tweets!!!

    Of course, they have to plan contingencies just in case he goes "full retard" (sic), but that doesn't mean it would be a good thing for Apple or even the US.

    Considering high tariffs would be the only real way of forcing Apple to do this and the incredible implications on the rest of the supply chain,
    and the logistical straight jacket this would entail for no benefit to either the USA (either low paying jobs or robotics),
    Apple clients or even those few workers working in those fucking factories,

    Maybe hiring those "mexicans" would be the only way to produce these things without using robots and they'd be done in the southern US, not the rust belt.
    This kind of work would be highly seasonal so I guess hiring people used to seasonal work would work great.... /s

    Also, lets not forget that if there were tariffs on foreign goods, there would also be tariffs on those manufactured US goods too.
    Trade wars worked so god damn well in the 1930s that all sort of trade treaties were signed post WWII

    The important thing is :  would doing this actually be beneficial for the god damn US. The answer is almost certainly NO.

    As a segway,

    Just reading his assertions a president cannot have a god damn conflict of interest (he can, its just the remedies are very very few).
    He's going to fucking enrich himself and all his cronies directly from the US treasury, cut out the middleman entirely..

    He's an amoral sociopath and the people who will be most hurt will be his own voters which is entirely fitting since this is the GOP mode of operation.
    Hilary lost the electoral votes but wins the popular votes by two million votes.  I think it is primarily due to the unpopular Obamacare among the worker in the industrial states of Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, etc.  Next year their premiums will jump and Hilary made little effort to address this issue. 
    awilliams87
  • Reply 35 of 133
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,095member
    Owning Apple stock is turning into nothing but bad luck. Apple seems to be everyone's target as to what has gone wrong with America. Apple is no different from any of the other tech companies having products manufactured and assembled overseas. Wall Street is constantly on Apple's back due to declining profit margins and bringing manufacturing to America is going to put a huge burden on Apple's profit machine. It appears as though Apple's share price might be heading toward the $80 range if this nonsense keeps up. Of all the tech companies on the planet, Trump just has to go after Apple. I'm sure there must be plenty of American companies using overseas employees. Trump is getting his revenge on Apple because Tim Cook was supporting Hillary for president. Nice going, Tim.
    If you are trying to make a point isn't it always best to go after the "Big Dog"? When big oil was in the news it was always "EXXON!!" not Marathon. 
  • Reply 36 of 133
    rob53 said:
    Trump is missing the point. It's not possible because there aren't enough people with the necessary skills. One example previously talked about by Cook were tool & die makers, an essential part of any product assembly (where you're making a large number of devices). People just aren't going into this trade in the US simply because most products are made overseas. There's no job market.

    Is Trump going to allow Apple to bring in thousands of foreign workers because there aren't enough in the US? Is he going to create incentives for people in the US to choose these as a career? Will he allow Apple to delay manufacturing until such time that there are enough people in the US trained in the various disciplines required (which would take years)?

    This is not something you can do overnight (if you can at all).
    They certainly are "enough people with the necessary skills". What isn't available is the amount of those people at a low enough price that would seem acceptable to most companies when the same task can be accomplished for a lower price elsewhere.
    No there aren't. The manufacturing process for electronic devices doesn't take a college graduate, it takes someone willing to stand/sit on an assembly line and do menial tasks. All the people in Detroit know about this type of work but they worked on larger things. Mobile devices are small and take people who are able to deal with small things. It also takes a lot of people, like 50K or more, who can come and do the work for a fixed period of time before moving to another electronics assembly firm. The US has too many MBAs and other "workers" who could never do these jobs. It's just like all the gardeners and field workers Trump wants to send back across the border. Americans choose not to do this type of work, especially without at least minimum wage and a health and retirement plan. 

    The worst thing about Trump's statement is this one, "Tim, you know one of the things that will be a real achievement for me is when I get Apple to build a big plant in the United States, or many big plants in the United States," which shows he really doesn't care about supporting the country only getting his "star" on Pennsylvania Ave. The President is supposed to be concerned about the people of the US not themselves. All his other hyperbole shows he's simply going to try and do whatever he can to promote big business, including his own, at the expense of all the citizens, including all those who voted for him. 
    You obviously live in a large city. There are tons of people living outside cities than can do those very things. The problem isn't the skills, it's the cost. American minimum wage laws, for example, practically makes it impossible for labor cost in the US to ever become price competitive to places elsewhere. The oversaturation of MBA and other college degrees is trait of large cities.
    Sounds like you would be happy to accept a job in the US with chinese wages. Go to it ! Set an example :smile: or is it perhaps your sense of entitlement that makes you think twice ??? 
    sinophilia
  • Reply 37 of 133
    Great news. Where to put the first plant? Gary, Indiana could use a little love, but I've always loved the sound of Chattanooga. 

    Detroit, Flint, Chicago, Ambridge...

    Ya' know, this has all been done before:

    Background. By the early 1950s, it was readily apparent to anyone paying attention that American inner cities were descending into a state of crisis. Upper- and middle-class families were rapidly fleeing urban centers for the burgeoning suburbs, and masses of uneducated blacks fleeing the rural South for big cities were finding that America’s traditional proving grounds for social advancement—its cities—were becoming havens of chronic poverty marked by declining social services and a rising tide of violence.

    ...

    A critical learning experience, Gray Areas set up directly the next leap forward in the fight against urban poverty. That leap would be made soon after, and its principal movers would be Senator Robert Kennedy, Franklin Thomas, and the Ford Foundation.

    Kennedy, the junior Senator from New York and former Attorney General, had first worked to shore up failing urban communities in the early 1960s, when he served as Attorney General and chairman of the President’s Committee on Juvenile Delinquency. In February 1966, Senator Kennedy was invited by community leaders from Brooklyn’s run-down Bedford-Stuyvesant district to tour the neighborhood and discuss community development. Moved by the community’s problems, Kennedy saw, in Bedford-Stuyvesant, an ideal place to attempt a major intervention bringing together the public and private sectors in support of the efforts of the community to improve its lot. At the time, the median income in Bedford-Stuyvesant was $1,500 below the city average;513 it was the most overcrowded neighborhood in the entire United States; and more than half of the neighborhood’s employed men held unskilled, low-wage jobs. Bedford-Stuyvesant’s population was 80 percent black and 15 percent Hispanic, and was without any effective political support in the city or national government.514

    https://cspcs.sanford.duke.edu/sites/default/files/descriptive/bedford-stuyvesant.pdf 


    One of the problems mentioned, then and now is the lack of vocational skills and training to fill the jobs that were created.


    This too, has been done before:
    In a special message to the Congress, on May 25, 1961, President John F. Kennedy told the legislators that "Large scale unemployment during a recession is bad enough, but large scale unemployment during a period of prosperity would be intolerable." Four days later, he transmitted a bill to Congress that dealt with just such a situation. The Manpower Development and Training Act of 1962 endeavored to train and retrain thousands of workers unemployed because of automation and technological change.

    https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/history/mono-mdtatext

    Maybe, just maybe the US [government] has a once-in-a-century opportunity to resolve these problems, starting with a clean slate.

    I can envision a public/private effort to accomplish this in a time certain at a specified cost.   IMO, this would require a project Czar -- something different than a Administration or Congressional committee.

    Maybe, Trump is planning to use Mitt Romney in a post like this -- he certainly has the track record (2002 Winter Olympics: successful, on-time, below cost).   

    I am certain that there are quite a few people (regardless of political party) who could do a great job as Jobs Czar!

    edited November 2016
  • Reply 38 of 133
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,791member
    tzeshan said:
    Hilary lost the electoral votes but wins the popular votes by two million votes.  I think it is primarily due to the unpopular Obamacare among the worker in the industrial states of Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, etc.  Next year their premiums will jump and Hilary made little effort to address this issue. 
    Nah, it doesn't have anything to do with industrial states and Affordable Care Act because any company that has more than 50 employees is mandated to provide healthcare. Those states are no different than any other when it comes small businesses where the workers may be required to buy their own insurance.

    When you have only terrible choices it is anyone's election to win or lose. It was more about Trump's promise to bring manufacturing back to the rust belt that tipped the scales. Of course it is easier said than done.
    awilliams87palomine
  • Reply 39 of 133
    jlanddjlandd Posts: 873member
    We'll never get anywhere with someone who makes things up and passes them off as fact. "Everyone is saying x" when actually no one is saying x.  He keeps talking about "My plan" and "I want to" as if Apple and everyone else needs to finally get with the program he has been the champion of forever.  He wasn't even swift enough to shift his tie manufacturing to one of the many in the US just for the campaign.
    anantksundarampalomine
  • Reply 40 of 133
    Manufacturing engineers.  Of the one million people making iPhones, how many of them are manufacturing engineers?  In the ten years time that one billion iPhones have been built, let's say a couple hundred thousand manufacturing engineers have been trained.  Maybe Donald Trump will be so kind as to get his magic pixie want and go around rural Pennsylvania and Austin Texas, and Janesville Wisconsin and say "Ding!  You're a manufacturing engineer!!  Go forth and build iPhones in the USA". So easy.
    anantksundaram
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