Microsoft touts Surface success, claims more MacBook switchers than ever

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  • Reply 61 of 86
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 1,032member
    Apple is in dire straights. Okay, most Mac users will not move to Windows. But, with the Surface, Apple will not be gaining Windows switchers, and definitely will be losing any chance of getting corporate buy-in, and will not be getting blow-back from Mac users asking to BYO. 

    I've been around long enough to see unassailable companies die a relatively quick death or become shells of former self because they failed to see the competition and respond: 
    Nokia, Blackberry, CD stores, video stores, Dec, Wordperfect, Sun, Cray, CDC, Univac, Burroughs, Datacraft, Harris, BBN, Xerox, HP, NCR, Novell, TI, Kodak, Radio Shack, Heathkit, (all these I've professionally relied on over the years and expected to be forever in existence), and many more whose names escape me at the moment. 

    Apple is getting eaten alive by companies with a lot less resources than Apple, coming up with solutions, imperfect though they may be, to problems which their customers want to solve. 
    firefly7475avon b7mainyehc
  • Reply 62 of 86
    genovelle said:
    So basically. If they had 15 people switch last year and now they have 20, the can say more and more people. The problem is they can't disclose the numbers because you would just laugh at them. Report the actual sales if you want to show how much better people like your product. 
    could this be said about Apple Watch? 
    firefly7475
  • Reply 63 of 86
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,926member
    cropr said:
    What a company never tells is how many people are switching in the other direction.
    Suppose 1000 people switch from Macbook to Surface but 900 people switch from Surface to Macbook. If Microsoft "forgot" to mention the second figure, what is the first figure really worth?
    Tim Cook also uses this trick. According to him, every quarter more and more people are switching from Android to iOS, and yet the average market share of Android has only been growing the last 3 years at the expense of the iOS marketshare.
    Only real sales figures provide correct information.     
    But market share isn't a closed box. Folks could be upgrading from a flip phone to Android. That would decrease iPhone market share but it doesn't change the fact Android to iPhone > iPhone to Android. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 64 of 86
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,926member
    AppleZulu said:
    Funny how people here were more forgiving when Apple refused to disclose Apple Watch numbers.
    Apple wasn't making comparative claims about Apple Watch vs other brands or devices, and then failing to provide the specific numbers to back it up. They have been making claims about it selling well, without providing the numbers to back it up. You can choose to believe them or not, but their claim has no impact on any competitors. no harm, no foul.
    But Apple has made claims about Android switcher's to iOS without anything to back it up. 
    But Apple has said the percentage of new iPhone buyers switched from Apple. 

    http://www.macworld.com/article/2998392/ios/tim-cook-says-30-percent-of-iphone-buyers-are-switching-from-android.html ;
  • Reply 65 of 86
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,926member
    larryjw said:
    Apple is in dire straights. Okay, most Mac users will not move to Windows. But, with the Surface, Apple will not be gaining Windows switchers, and definitely will be losing any chance of getting corporate buy-in, and will not be getting blow-back from Mac users asking to BYO. 

    I've been around long enough to see unassailable companies die a relatively quick death or become shells of former self because they failed to see the competition and respond: 
    Nokia, Blackberry, CD stores, video stores, Dec, Wordperfect, Sun, Cray, CDC, Univac, Burroughs, Datacraft, Harris, BBN, Xerox, HP, NCR, Novell, TI, Kodak, Radio Shack, Heathkit, (all these I've professionally relied on over the years and expected to be forever in existence), and many more whose names escape me at the moment. 

    Apple is getting eaten alive by companies with a lot less resources than Apple, coming up with solutions, imperfect though they may be, to problems which their customers want to solve. 
    This is s joke post, right?

    According to the tech press, Apple has been dying for 40 years now and is on the verge of bankruptcy. 

    The Surface isn't the only PC. Apple will get switchers from people tired of Dell, HP, etc. 

    did you know IBM has switch to Apple? 

    How again are they getting eaten alive? 
  • Reply 66 of 86
    eightzero said:
    The surface ads crack me up. An artist or designer touts the surface because they "can't write on the screen of a mac" Uh....you can't write on the screen of your TV either. Why are you comparing your surface to a mac and not the iPad? Oh wait...because reasons.
    I think the comparison is fair. A Surface is able to accommodate workflows in a "pro" environment much better than an iPad can, simply because it runs an OS that supports mainstream software and has the ability to conveniently access assets not originating on the device. It does exactly what it claims, straddling the divide between tablet and laptop. The iPad may be a better tablet, but when what the user needs is a computer, the Surface seems like a pretty good compromise.

    If I was forced to choose between an iPad and a Surface to do the work I now do on a Mac, I'd probably go with the Surface. I'm sure I could figure out a way to do my work on an iPad, but it would be a lot easier on a surface.

    Compromises in hardware are everywhere. My particular needs would be best met by a desktop, but I like the portability of a laptop so I compromise and get the best laptop I can buy. Compromising a "perfect" tablet experience to get a machine that can also be a decent traditional computer seems perfectly reasonable to me.
    firefly7475
  • Reply 67 of 86
    linkman said:

    The Surface tries to be a tablet and a laptop and fails at both. Apple figured out that the same OS doesn't do well for both tasks so they put iOS on the iPad instead of OS X.

    That's a popular talking point, but nobody ever seems to mention any specifics.

    How does the Surface fail as a tablet? What does it not do well? How does it fail as a laptop? What are its shortcomings? I'm not taking a position here, I simply don't know because I've never used one. What leads you to judge it a failure on either front?

    WHY is it a bad idea to run a desktop OS on a portable? Why is a device with a detachable touchscreen any less suitable for a desktop OS than a laptop? I run the same OS on my desktop and laptop, why would running on my tablet be a bad idea?

    I just bought the most maxed out 2016 MacBook Pro I could buy so I've demonstrated where I'm most comfortable for now, but at work I use Windows machines all day and I gotta tell ya, a touchscreen is a really nice bonus. I wish my Mac had one. I also wish I could use my iPad Pro in the same environment and performing the same tasks as I do with my Macs, but it just doesn't work. Having a tablet than can also be a computer, or a computer that can double as a tablet, sounds like a really handy idea to me.

    So what am I missing?
  • Reply 68 of 86

    [...] In fact, I've found most people expressing such "concern" aren't pros or don't even use a MP.

    Sure, like some Avid editors I know, whose company got fed up with Apple and went with HP workstations for all their Nitris updates a few years ago. I guess their concern is invalid because "they don't even USE Mac Pros."

    Anymore.
    edited December 2016 jSnively
  • Reply 69 of 86
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    linkman said:

    The Surface tries to be a tablet and a laptop and fails at both. Apple figured out that the same OS doesn't do well for both tasks so they put iOS on the iPad instead of OS X.

    That's a popular talking point, but nobody ever seems to mention any specifics.

    How does the Surface fail as a tablet? What does it not do well? How does it fail as a laptop? What are its shortcomings? I'm not taking a position here, I simply don't know because I've never used one. What leads you to judge it a failure on either front?

    WHY is it a bad idea to run a desktop OS on a portable? Why is a device with a detachable touchscreen any less suitable for a desktop OS than a laptop? I run the same OS on my desktop and laptop, why would running on my tablet be a bad idea?

    I just bought the most maxed out 2016 MacBook Pro I could buy so I've demonstrated where I'm most comfortable for now, but at work I use Windows machines all day and I gotta tell ya, a touchscreen is a really nice bonus. I wish my Mac had one. I also wish I could use my iPad Pro in the same environment and performing the same tasks as I do with my Macs, but it just doesn't work. Having a tablet than can also be a computer, or a computer that can double as a tablet, sounds like a really handy idea to me.

    So what am I missing?
    It fails because in laptop form the onscreen elements take up too much room, and then it tablet form the application menus are hard to get your big fingers on. Not enough apps have been converted to the new structure. 

    Secondly, tapping on the screen in laptop mode feels very unnatural and needs subtle adjustment depending on the angle of the screen. It was also a little bit laggy, but not uncomfortably so. I'm also not sure if this was a hardware or software problem, or just because I'm used to the smooth response I get from my old iPad. 

    I had to use one a while back. In the end it was easier to leave it in laptop mode. 

    Still, I would expect Apple to lose lots of older users after each significant switch, so this hardly surprising. This isn't a problem as long as they pick up younger users to replace them. 

    The touchbar is a key indicator of what Apple believes the new generation is looking for in a professional machine. These kids have grown up typing on flat surfaces, so Apple will be looking to take advantage of that in their next generation of devices. 

    edited December 2016 linkman
  • Reply 70 of 86
    larryjw said:
    Apple is in dire straights. Okay, most Mac users will not move to Windows. But, with the Surface, Apple will not be gaining Windows switchers, and definitely will be losing any chance of getting corporate buy-in, and will not be getting blow-back from Mac users asking to BYO. 

    I've been around long enough to see unassailable companies die a relatively quick death or become shells of former self because they failed to see the competition and respond: 
    Nokia, Blackberry, CD stores, video stores, Dec, Wordperfect, Sun, Cray, CDC, Univac, Burroughs, Datacraft, Harris, BBN, Xerox, HP, NCR, Novell, TI, Kodak, Radio Shack, Heathkit, (all these I've professionally relied on over the years and expected to be forever in existence), and many more whose names escape me at the moment. 

    Apple is getting eaten alive by companies with a lot less resources than Apple, coming up with solutions, imperfect though they may be, to problems which their customers want to solve. 

    Apple can't, by default, be getting eaten alive when they're grabbing most of the profits in the industry. It looks like this won't be changing any time soon. 
  • Reply 71 of 86
    Why you should not use windows 10

    Basically it spies on you and you can't disable that

    https://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html

    Rayz2016
  • Reply 72 of 86
    Rayz2016 said:

    It fails because in laptop form the onscreen elements take up too much room, and then it tablet form the application menus are hard to get your big fingers on. Not enough apps have been converted to the new structure.


    Holy Hands On, Batman! Feedback from someone who has actually USED one?! Hooray!

    Seriously, thanks! That's helpful.

    I actually found your observations encouraging, because it doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with it that couldn't be fixed with UI tweaks. Maybe if it really takes off developers will create dual-UI titles that allow users to switch between "precision cursor mode" and "fat finger mode."

    In my work I have the choice of finger or mouse, so it's easy to overlook that particular limitation. I can see how it would be tougher to use if the mouse were not present. I'd still like touch capability on my laptop though, because with that I *do* have the option of using a pointing device for things that are not well suited to poking.

    Rayz2016 said:

    The touchbar is a key indicator of what Apple believes the new generation is looking for in a professional machine. These kids have grown up typing on flat surfaces, so Apple will be looking to take advantage of that in their next generation of devices. 


    I'm old (54) so maybe I'm outside the target demographic, which may explain why I'm still waiting to be impressed by the Touch Bar. Before I got the machine it struck me as an awesome idea -- keys that can transform themselves into just about anything one could want -- but in practice it hasn't really moved me. I don't DISlike it, but if it disappeared and was replaced with ordinary keys I don't think I'd miss it.

    On the other hand, when we got our first touch SCREEN computer at work about a year ago, that was an epiphany. When I have to fire a cue in a hurry I don't have to hunt for the mouse, I can just reach to where my eyes are already pointed and hit it. It's great.
  • Reply 73 of 86
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    The Mac division of Apple DOES need to be wary of the world of Microsoft:
    1)  By switching to Intel technology they no longer have any claim to producing a superior gadget.   Everything of importance in a Mac is off the shelf hardware.  There is no longer anyway to distinguish itself.

    2)  Apple has dug itself a price hole by limiting its Mac products to an OS that is scrapped every 5 years.   That makes any Mac older than 5 (maybe 6) years old so much scrap.   Microsoft supports their OS's for double that time and plus, it is possible (actually easy) to load their more recent OS's onto older equipment which makes owning that equipment much more cost effective.  I have 15 year old desktop units and 10 year old laptops currently working just fine.

    3)  Most computer users are increasingly only using internet/cloud based software.  That makes sophisticated hardware/software systems harder to justify.

    To counter balance all those limitations, Apple has its eco-system and reputation for security and reliability.  I would argue that that eco-system and reputation are and will be the primary selling point for Macs to the mass market it needs to survive.

  • Reply 74 of 86
    linkmanlinkman Posts: 1,040member
    linkman said:

    The Surface tries to be a tablet and a laptop and fails at both. Apple figured out that the same OS doesn't do well for both tasks so they put iOS on the iPad instead of OS X.

    That's a popular talking point, but nobody ever seems to mention any specifics.

    How does the Surface fail as a tablet? What does it not do well? How does it fail as a laptop? What are its shortcomings? I'm not taking a position here, I simply don't know because I've never used one. What leads you to judge it a failure on either front?

    WHY is it a bad idea to run a desktop OS on a portable? Why is a device with a detachable touchscreen any less suitable for a desktop OS than a laptop? I run the same OS on my desktop and laptop, why would running on my tablet be a bad idea?

    I just bought the most maxed out 2016 MacBook Pro I could buy so I've demonstrated where I'm most comfortable for now, but at work I use Windows machines all day and I gotta tell ya, a touchscreen is a really nice bonus. I wish my Mac had one. I also wish I could use my iPad Pro in the same environment and performing the same tasks as I do with my Macs, but it just doesn't work. Having a tablet than can also be a computer, or a computer that can double as a tablet, sounds like a really handy idea to me.

    So what am I missing?
    Rayz2016 came up with most of my talking points and wrote them quite nicely. A lot of the problems are also with the Windows OS interactions. Imagine taking your MBP and shrinking the screen down to 8" (because the native resolution on the Surface has so many pixels and things don't work well if you resize). But since Windows 10 wasn't well tailored for the mobile form factor a lot of the touch aspects don't play along well -- it really wants you to use a multi button mouse or trackpad. So what happens? You end up reverting to the keyboard and trackpad all the time. You might as well use a laptop instead with its fine keyboard. The Surface's trackpad leaves much to be desired when compared to the one on any Mac with multi touch.

    I have had several times where I used the pen on the Surface. The UI was so tiny that fingers were useless and repeatedly pinching/spreading got very unproductive. I've never yearned for a pen on an iPad nor a Mac (I have not used the iPad Pro).

    I've found few people that actually use a laptop's touch screen. Since the keyboard and trackpad are much closer to their hands it's a faster and more convenient motion to use those instead of reaching up to the screen. Switching to the pen temporarily really hinders productivity. I almost never use a laptop's touch screen even though it's on my work laptop.

    I see several people at work that have a Surface and an iPad. The Surfaces never get into mobile use; they always take their iPads. About the only time I ever see them undocked is when they are leaving for the day and of course the keyboard always comes along. And a wireless mouse too!

    But in the end, it's almost like a Jeep thing. Y'all wouldn't understand unless you had one.
  • Reply 75 of 86
    Bwahahaha, NOT...   The Surface Pro nor Surface Book will never beat the MacBook Pro.  That's hilarious.  Mac users have an enormous investment in Apple hardware and software are not going to make the leap to Microsoft hardware running Win10.  At least not anyone serious about professional use scenarios.  The complaints of the MacBook Pro not being professional enough are overblown.  There have been compromises to reduce the thickness and extend the battery life of the MacBook Pro.   The competition, doesn't have anything close without being a lot thicker, heavier and with less battery life.  A MacBook Pro is a web developers dream machine, at least modern DevOps, Cloud developers and UX designers.  There is a reason Microsoft supports Linux on Azure, ported SQL Server to Linux, and brought some Linux/POSIX like features to Win10 command line and fixed their 1990's Command Prompt and added PowerShell and .NET cross platform abilities.  Not to mention the Office 2016 for Mac rewrite.  They are struggling to stay relevant in an increasingly Unix/Linux based world.  They are making strides on their server platform offering the ability to right size virtual machines and adding full Docker support, etc.  Cloud is stomping traditional Windows development like a tsunami. They've known for some time they are in big trouble and all of their steps since Balmer's ouster show they have been trying to adapt to the new reality.  

    Adobe Creative Cloud users could go Win10 as they can use either but there are more tools than just CC and the Mac platform is highly reliable.  Win10 is vastly improved over nightmares like Vista and 8/8.1 but still it's Windows.  Microsoft is learning as they offer much improved trackpad tech and producing the hardware and the OS offer advantages that Apple has had for decades.  The new Surface Studio is impressive but at $2,999 you can get a more powerful Mac Pro even though it's not been updated in a few years.  Still the Mac Pro is rather powerful indeed for those who can actually push it to its extremes.  It would run circles around the Surface Studio clunker with a giant touch screen.  Pffft, who cares about a giant touch screen?  Maybe .01% would use it effectively.  
  • Reply 76 of 86
    frank777frank777 Posts: 5,839member
    Win10 is vastly improved over nightmares like Vista and 8/8.1 but still it's Windows.

    This more than anything, is Microsoft's problem.

    Windows is still far and way the world's premiere platform for viruses and spyware. The biggest story in the world last month was the hacking of computers belonging to the U.S. Democratic Party. This is no time to be leaving a relatively safe platform to face a horde of Windows viruses and spyware. I cannot understand why Microsoft never developed a second OS that gave up full Windows compatibility for security. There must be enough people concerned about security to make such a niche OS profitable.

    Honestly, I am concerned with the rising prices of Apple gear and the general direction the company's taking under Cook.

    If I thought Windows was a secure platform, I would probably take the Surface laptop or the Dell XPS 15 out for a spin.
  • Reply 77 of 86
    Lol. 

    Nobody is is switching from the sleekest, best laptop money can buy to that clunky piece of junk. 

    The He surface is neither a great laptop nor a great tablet, but it's ok at both. That docking mechanism is ridiculous though. It makes the whole device feel like cheap garbage.  

    The one or two people that switched (from their 8 year old MBP mind you) instantly regretted it. 
  • Reply 78 of 86
    linkman said:

    The Surface tries to be a tablet and a laptop and fails at both. Apple figured out that the same OS doesn't do well for both tasks so they put iOS on the iPad instead of OS X.

    That's a popular talking point, but nobody ever seems to mention any specifics.

    How does the Surface fail as a tablet? What does it not do well? How does it fail as a laptop? What are its shortcomings? I'm not taking a position here, I simply don't know because I've never used one. What leads you to judge it a failure on either front?

    The fastest way to describe it would be to say performing more tablet-like tasks on a Surface Pro is like taking photos with your smartphone. The photos that come out of a smartphone are relatively terrible, however in most cases they are "good enough", and the convenience and reduced cost of having the one device trumps the desire for capturing the best photos possible.

    Looking at the Surface Pro in particular, it is neither a laptop nor is it a tablet. That characterisation is incorrect and if you think in those terms you'll never understand the device (it doesn't help that Microsoft themselves heavily pushed this narrative).

    Imagine a 3-way Venn diagrams outlining all the features one could perform on a computing device. Laptops are best at performing laptop tasks - like writing or pro video editing etc. Tablets are best at performing tablet tasks - reading a book, playing mobile games, checking Facebook etc. The Surface Pro is a hybrid or a 2-in-1. It's best at performing 2-in-1 tasks - document editing, drawing, taking notes, media consumption etc.

    The overlapping areas contain tasks you can perform on multiple devices, to varying degrees.

    When looking to purchase, a user would hopefully consider their own unique needs and purchase the device or devices which covers those needs the best.

    The kicker for me was actually the development of large-screen smartphones. The tasks I once required a dedicated tablet for (email triage, Facebook, messaging etc) are handled more elegantly and conveniently on a smartphone. However I still appreciate a couple of tablet-like functions (like being able to take notes in a meeting or prop my screen up on an airplane tray table and read or watch a movie) which is why I've gone the 2-in-1 route.

    nht
  • Reply 79 of 86
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    knowitall said:
    One fact is that MS released project 'bash' (yes its actually called like that, like pressing Start to Exit) to have an Ubuntu Linux subsystem (that's binary compatible, at least on Intel systems) to prevent web developers to leave Windows in droves ...
    It's called project bash because it ports the bash shell onto Windows.  Which is pretty danged awesome for them to do if you are a multiplatform developer.  Even if I kinda think that powershell is better...but having bash on windows, OS X and linux means that any shell scripts I write might work cleanly across all three.  How useful that will be is still TBD and depends on how much more they will develop bash.

    It's a shame that project astoria died but its nice pieces survive.
    jSnively
  • Reply 80 of 86
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Rayz2016 said:
    linkman said:

    The Surface tries to be a tablet and a laptop and fails at both. Apple figured out that the same OS doesn't do well for both tasks so they put iOS on the iPad instead of OS X.

    That's a popular talking point, but nobody ever seems to mention any specifics.

    How does the Surface fail as a tablet? What does it not do well? How does it fail as a laptop? What are its shortcomings? I'm not taking a position here, I simply don't know because I've never used one. What leads you to judge it a failure on either front?

    WHY is it a bad idea to run a desktop OS on a portable? Why is a device with a detachable touchscreen any less suitable for a desktop OS than a laptop? I run the same OS on my desktop and laptop, why would running on my tablet be a bad idea?

    I just bought the most maxed out 2016 MacBook Pro I could buy so I've demonstrated where I'm most comfortable for now, but at work I use Windows machines all day and I gotta tell ya, a touchscreen is a really nice bonus. I wish my Mac had one. I also wish I could use my iPad Pro in the same environment and performing the same tasks as I do with my Macs, but it just doesn't work. Having a tablet than can also be a computer, or a computer that can double as a tablet, sounds like a really handy idea to me.

    So what am I missing?
    It fails because in laptop form the onscreen elements take up too much room, and then it tablet form the application menus are hard to get your big fingers on. Not enough apps have been converted to the new structure. 
    In laptop mode you don't use the tablet UI but the normal Windows desktop.  The onscreen elements are correctly sized for desktop usage.

    In tablet form you don't use the desktop unless you have to.  Then you use the pen because you need a more accurate pointing device than fingers.

    As far as tablet apps go I pretty much have equivalents for all the apps I have on the iPad.  The difference is I also have the full fledged desktop versions on call.
    Secondly, tapping on the screen in laptop mode feels very unnatural and needs subtle adjustment depending on the angle of the screen. 
    This hasn't been my experience.  I have both a Surface Book (the older one) and a MBP.  I would welcome a MacOS version of the Surface and dump the iPad, the Surface and the MBP in favor of a MacOS SurfaceBook and iMac.
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