Mac losing focus of Jony Ive, others in Apple management - report

2456

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 104
    blastdoor said:
    Ouch.
    I personally don't understand how Apple as the largest company in the world with no concerns about cash flow can't have multiple successful product teams going.
    How hard is it for them to put out a decent looking updated monitor for example?
    The culture there sounds brutal too...?

    My hypothesis has been that there is a senior management bottleneck for the Mac. More specifically, I have guessed that Jony Ive needs to sign off on products before they move forward and that he just doesn't give a crap about the Mac, so teams cannot move forward. 

    There have also been articles speculating that Apple's functional organization contribute to this problem. 

    I certainly don't want Apple to end up with independent, competing product divisions. They need to keep a unified structure in order to produce a unified ecosystem. But the current structure clearly needs refinement. Adding a bit more parallelism to the organization, so that multiple products can move forward simultaneously without running into a senior management bottleneck, does not require separate profit/loss statements for every product. It just requires a decision from Tim Cook that maybe we don't need Jony Ive to sign off on everything. 

    It's almost as if Apple is structured as a single core CPU that is now running up against the limits of clock speed scaling. They need to figure out a way to add parallelism. They need to go multi-core, but still with a single OS. 
    From other things I've read it seems like Ive is mostly focused on Campus 2 and Apple's retail stores now. Note that the two people who took over his management duties report directly to Tim Cook. Apple also has an SVP of hardware engineering. What is his role? I have a hard time believing Apple can't update the guts of the Mac Pro or add TB3 to the iMac because Ive doesn't care about the Mac anymore.
    StrangeDaysration al
  • Reply 22 of 104
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    The Mac line now exists in a stable, level playing field of commodity level products...  Like washing machines...
    That was further propagated when Apple abandoned inhouse/proprietary hardware for off the shelf Intel stuff....

    I liken the Mac line to automobile manufacturers in the 50's and 60's:   There was little room for innovation -- so they simply kept adding more and more chrome and, occasionally, putting a really big engine in a small car....

    Meanwhile Apple and Apple fans are chained to an ideology where Apple designs 'insanely great products that change people's lives'.
    That's a bit like comparing a 1968 GTO to a 1968 Chevelle 396....   Both served a niche market but neither was insanely great (rather just a variation of a standard, run of the mill product) and neither changed people's lives -- and most people puddled around in their Chevy Impala, Pontiac Lemans or Ford Galaxy and got to the same place the GTO's got to at about the same time.
    1983pscooter63
  • Reply 23 of 104
    jkichlinejkichline Posts: 1,365member
    So here's my thought... it probably doesn't take three years to design the enclosure of the new MacBook Pro and the other components that encompass the design.  Chances are really good that they had the design already finished long ahead of time, but that other engineering teams were working on it.  I think you need to look at the things that were designed in the new laptop.

    First, it's very thin.  The screen is remarkably thin.  I can't imagine the sort of engineering it would take to do that while still maintaining rigidity and add a much better and brighter display.  In addition, the new hinge is all metal and again, works flawlessly.  I'm not saying these are huge, mind-blowing improvements, but it did take design and patents to make it work the way it does.

    You have a device that much thinner, and yet made of metal and perfectly solid feeling.  You have a completely redesigned keyboard that many reviewers are now saying is better that the original MacBook Pro keyboard.  You have a huge touchpad (OK that probably didn't take a lot of work) and then the TouchBar.  That took a lot of engineering whether you think of it as a gimmick or not.  You still have basically a self-contained computer running the TouchBar and TouchID and an OLED display.  Again, that stuff doesn't just "happen".

    So I sincerely doubt that the Apple industrial team has left the proverbial building.  Instead, they probably had a lot of these components already designed and had to wait for a number of technological "stars" to align, specifically Intel.  In the meantime, they would be best suited working on other projects instead of designing the next design of laptop expected in 2020.  Maybe, just maybe Apple is working on other things that are pushing technology and design forward. Things that you don't even see coming.  Maybe Apple already knows that laptops are "here to stay" but they are not on the forefront of where technology is headed.  Apple wants to skate the puck where it will be in the future.
    StrangeDaysapple jockeyration alpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 104
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member

    nht said:
    As nice as the A10 may be it can't do what the high end Core i7 does for the Mac
    I don't see how that's a valid argument. the A10 was designed for a very specific type of use. In no way does the existence of the A10 imply that Apple tried as hard as they might but it was the closest they could get to the performance of a "high end Core i7" in a Mac. Clearly their goal for that chip wasn't to compete with the fastest Mac.
    apple jockeyai46ration al
  • Reply 25 of 104
    blastdoor said:
    seankill said:
    Seems about right. Can't even do a spec bump for the Mac Pro.

    I needed a desktop (haven't had one is 10 years), went with a PC, faster, much faster, and saved 1000$ (counting dual 4K monitors). Win10 is pretty good so far, just have to disable a bunch of junk.

    I still think I will buy Apple Macbooks though.
    I'm curious to hear a Mac user's perspective on Win10. I haven't used Windows since XP. 

    Some things that I particularly like about the Mac relative to XP are:

    1. Spaces (or whatever you want to call it these days)
    2. Very smooth multitasking (I found that I had to fiddle with processor affinity and process priorities to get a windows PC to run smoothly when all logical cores were maxed out)
    3. The accessibility Zoom feature
    4. Awesome multi-touch trackpads
    5. Single menu bar at the top plus general efficient use of window space (I guess that will probably never change in Windows)
    6. Windows was always just ugly; macOS just looks more elegant to my eye

    How does a high-end Windows 10 PC stack up on these things? 
    1. I want to say I've seen this feature in Windows 10 but am still getting up to speed on loading software. Not knowing enough since I just got it 6 days ago, I can't comment. 

    2. I would give the edge to OSX, the one thing I have liked on Win since Windows  is the ability to drag a window to the edge of the screen and it will automatically go to split screen. It seems slight faster than the OSX way. The processor I have handles multitasking fine, noticably better than my 2012 retina, I would imagine it is a draw on updated Mac hardware in an iMac.

    3. Can't comment as i don't really use these features but I would be willing to guess OSX has the edge here, Apple usually excels at accessibility.

    4. As I bought a desktop, I don't have a touchpad. I found the mouse seems to be a little better experience but I use a Windows/OSX mouse for my Macbook, probably not optimized for OSX. I would bet gold that OSX (or MacOS) has better touchpad controls, they always have. Part of the reason I would stick with Apple for laptops.

    5. This one is a draw to me, preference driven.

    6) I would argue Windows 10 is somewhat better looking than Win 7 but I do agree that OSX (MacOS) is much better looking and elegant. I still love my 2012 Macbook Retina.

    I bought this PC for CAD, gaming, and other engineering related tasks, it serves this purpose well while an iMac would still require windows to meet my needs. The machine is custom speced from the top down which is always a huge plus for me. Next time, I will assemble it myself.
    The PC made sense for my use, if you don't intend on using it for these items, stick to MacOS. I just wasn't willing to pay for such outdated hardware; hopefully Apple will start updating these things more, even if it is just the GPU.

    edited December 2016
  • Reply 26 of 104
    I question the sources but some of this does not surprise me at all. While Apple still pushes out great products they lack excitement. Ask me how often I use the toucher on my new MacBookPro? Hardly at all. It is a gimmick. Truth hurts I know but let's call it like it is.
    Ah, yes, the good ol' "because I don't use it, no one does, therefore it's junk" argument. Classic.
    palomineStrangeDaysration aldysamorianetmage
  • Reply 27 of 104
    jkichline said:
    So here's my thought... it probably doesn't take three years to design the enclosure of the new MacBook Pro and the other components that encompass the design.  Chances are really good that they had the design already finished long ahead of time, but that other engineering teams were working on it.  I think you need to look at the things that were designed in the new laptop.

    First, it's very thin.  The screen is remarkably thin.  I can't imagine the sort of engineering it would take to do that while still maintaining rigidity and add a much better and brighter display.  In addition, the new hinge is all metal and again, works flawlessly.  I'm not saying these are huge, mind-blowing improvements, but it did take design and patents to make it work the way it does.

    You have a device that much thinner, and yet made of metal and perfectly solid feeling.  You have a completely redesigned keyboard that many reviewers are now saying is better that the original MacBook Pro keyboard.  You have a huge touchpad (OK that probably didn't take a lot of work) and then the TouchBar.  That took a lot of engineering whether you think of it as a gimmick or not.  You still have basically a self-contained computer running the TouchBar and TouchID and an OLED display.  Again, that stuff doesn't just "happen".

    So I sincerely doubt that the Apple industrial team has left the proverbial building.  Instead, they probably had a lot of these components already designed and had to wait for a number of technological "stars" to align, specifically Intel.  In the meantime, they would be best suited working on other projects instead of designing the next design of laptop expected in 2020.  Maybe, just maybe Apple is working on other things that are pushing technology and design forward. Things that you don't even see coming.  Maybe Apple already knows that laptops are "here to stay" but they are not on the forefront of where technology is headed.  Apple wants to skate the puck where it will be in the future.
    An industrial designer I follow on Twitter (who is a fan of Apple but doesn't have any qualms about calling the company out) calls the new rMBP a "stunning machine in execution and details".  If Apple's ID team didn't care about the Mac anymore why would they go through the effort of redesigning the machine and adding the touchbar?  In the Bloomberg story it claims engineers were working on a battery pack design that would have boosted battery life but marketing decided they couldn't miss the holiday shopping season so engineering had to revert to an older design. Clearly Apple skipping an Intel generation came back to bite them in the ass.
    Apple engineers wanted to use higher capacity battery packs shaped to the insides of the laptop versus the standard square cells found in most machines. The design would have boosted battery life.
    In the run-up to the MacBook Pro’s planned debut this year, the new battery failed a key test, according to a person familiar with the situation. Rather than delay the launch and risk missing the crucial holiday shopping season, Apple decided to revert to an older design.



  • Reply 28 of 104
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    blastdoor said:
    Ouch.
    I personally don't understand how Apple as the largest company in the world with no concerns about cash flow can't have multiple successful product teams going.
    How hard is it for them to put out a decent looking updated monitor for example?
    The culture there sounds brutal too...?

    My hypothesis has been that there is a senior management bottleneck for the Mac. More specifically, I have guessed that Jony Ive needs to sign off on products before they move forward and that he just doesn't give a crap about the Mac, so teams cannot move forward. 

    There have also been articles speculating that Apple's functional organization contribute to this problem. 

    I certainly don't want Apple to end up with independent, competing product divisions. They need to keep a unified structure in order to produce a unified ecosystem. But the current structure clearly needs refinement. Adding a bit more parallelism to the organization, so that multiple products can move forward simultaneously without running into a senior management bottleneck, does not require separate profit/loss statements for every product. It just requires a decision from Tim Cook that maybe we don't need Jony Ive to sign off on everything. 

    It's almost as if Apple is structured as a single core CPU that is now running up against the limits of clock speed scaling. They need to figure out a way to add parallelism. They need to go multi-core, but still with a single OS. 
    From other things I've read it seems like Ive is mostly focused on Campus 2 and Apple's retail stores now. Note that the two people who took over his management duties report directly to Tim Cook. Apple also has an SVP of hardware engineering. What is his role? I have a hard time believing Apple can't update the guts of the Mac Pro or add TB3 to the iMac because Ive doesn't care about the Mac anymore.
    There may be on VP or SVP of hardware engineering but the hardware engineering teams are product based. The Mac engineering team != the iPhone or iPad team. Not in hardware.

    In software it is different, although the term fuctional is not quite true either. As there are teams but cross OS teams - Mail etc.
    ration al
  • Reply 29 of 104
    appexappex Posts: 687member
    Great, Apple. Demonstrate it with facts: first functionality, and then and only then, external form-factor-design.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 30 of 104
    wozwozwozwoz Posts: 255member
    You don't need a report to tell you this - it is obvious. They are too busy choosing the shade of gold on the next iPhone to worry about real computing. Sometimes I think they are losing the plot.
    avon b7apple jockeydysamorianetmage
  • Reply 31 of 104
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 2,834member
    seankill said:
    blastdoor said:
    seankill said:
    Seems about right. Can't even do a spec bump for the Mac Pro.

    I needed a desktop (haven't had one is 10 years), went with a PC, faster, much faster, and saved 1000$ (counting dual 4K monitors). Win10 is pretty good so far, just have to disable a bunch of junk.

    I still think I will buy Apple Macbooks though.
    I'm curious to hear a Mac user's perspective on Win10. I haven't used Windows since XP. 

    Some things that I particularly like about the Mac relative to XP are:

    1. Spaces (or whatever you want to call it these days)
    2. Very smooth multitasking (I found that I had to fiddle with processor affinity and process priorities to get a windows PC to run smoothly when all logical cores were maxed out)
    3. The accessibility Zoom feature
    4. Awesome multi-touch trackpads
    5. Single menu bar at the top plus general efficient use of window space (I guess that will probably never change in Windows)
    6. Windows was always just ugly; macOS just looks more elegant to my eye

    How does a high-end Windows 10 PC stack up on these things? 
    1. I want to say I've seen this feature in Windows 10 but am still getting up to speed on loading software. Not knowing enough since I just got it 6 days ago, I can't comment. 

    2. I would give the edge to OSX, the one thing I have liked on Win since Windows  is the ability to drag a window to the edge of the screen and it will automatically go to split screen. It seems slight faster than the OSX way. The processor I have handles multitasking fine, noticably better than my 2012 retina, I would imagine it is a draw on updated Mac hardware in an iMac.

    3. Can't comment as i don't really use these features but I would be willing to guess OSX has the edge here, Apple usually excels at accessibility.

    4. As I bought a desktop, I don't have a touchpad. I found the mouse seems to be a little better experience but I use a Windows/OSX mouse for my Macbook, probably not optimized for OSX. I would bet gold that OSX (or MacOS) has better touchpad controls, they always have. Part of the reason I would stick with Apple for laptops.

    5. This one is a draw to me, preference driven.

    6) I would argue Windows 10 is somewhat better looking than Win 7 but I do agree that OSX (MacOS) is much better looking and elegant. I still love my 2012 Macbook Retina.

    I bought this PC for CAD, gaming, and other engineering related tasks, it serves this purpose well while an iMac would still require windows to meet my needs. The machine is custom speced from the top down which is always a huge plus for me. Next time, I will assemble it myself.
    The PC made sense for my use, if you don't intend on using it for these items, stick to MacOS. I just wasn't willing to pay for such outdated hardware; hopefully Apple will start updating these things more, even if it is just the GPU.

    Thanks.... I guess my takeaway is that I might still not be happy with Windows as my primary computer OS, but I'll keep investigating. 

    Another option for me is to get a Linux box and offload my heavy CPU lifting to that. I'm fortunate that the software I use is available for Linux. I could just use a Mac as the front end. But my first choice would be to stick to a single platform/ecosystem, and my first choice among ecosystems is Apple (actually, I don't think there really is a credible alternative ecosystem). 
  • Reply 32 of 104
    jvmbjvmb Posts: 59member
    sog35 said:
    the refresh has been slow because there is nothing to refresh. No new chips from intel and no new technology to push.
    According to Apple, everyone should switch to USB-C, unless you use a Mac Mini or pro. Apparently their laptops need 5K ultra fine monitors, but their desktops don't need that. 
    dysamoria
  • Reply 33 of 104
    cali said:
    Didn't the new MacBook sell the most units ever?

    why all the doom?
    There was no mention of units sold, just total sales in $ amounts. 
    dysamoria
  • Reply 34 of 104
    smaffei said:
    Certainly appears that the professional Mac is going the way of the dodo at Apple. Which to seems self defeating to me considering the only way to develop iOS apps is to use a Mac. (Yes, I know about PC Hackintosh, but it's not approved). You need a reasonably beefy Mac to do decent development.

    Isn't neglecting the tools that support your bread and butter platform suicide? I hope we're not going back to the dark days of Metrowerks CodeWarrior!
    Apple's commitment to Swift is (IMO) an indicator that they are still committed to the desktop, but the desktop is usually a laptop.

    Also, I'm guessing that the Mac Pro may finally disappear and in its place the iMac may be supplemented with an iMac Pro.
    That could spell the end of their use in our plant. Not only is the attached monitor superfluous and unnecessary in our system, it would actually get in the way.
    netmage
  • Reply 35 of 104
    I think I have this right. If the Mac was a separate stand-alone business, the Mac would be 128th on the Fortune 500. Not bad.  

    Apple already has the best OS and the best free suite of built in software (Pages, Numbers, etc.)

    I think Apple is looking at eventually having two MacBook Pro's (13" & 15"-no MBP "esc"), one Macbook and no MacBook Air's. Two iMacs (21" & a 27"). Maybe a Mac Pro but no stand alone monitors, no wifi accessories, and no Mini. There, done!

    IOS: 3 iPhones, small medium and large, with the same chassis design. Two iPad Pro's and two iPad Air's (Mini and regular Air). Done!

    AppleWatch and ATV. Done!

    P.S. The PC is not being replaced by the iPad, it's being replaced by the iPhone.
    edited December 2016 StrangeDaysai46pscooter63
  • Reply 36 of 104
    As many have stated hereon the issue. I see a bigger problem looming, but hope Apple doesnt waste its time/effort/advantage now in not bringing os x and IOS together. MS has exceeded expectations for what surface could be with the 4 and how it looks like a pretty good inbetween device. I have a few corporate clients that have switched now from macs to Surface 4 (atleast started). I asked their opinion and they where very pleased with the devices. So pleased that they couldn´t stop talking about it. And when you hear this from a former mac entusiast (the person/client that I asked) it really gives me the creaps on apples situation...Infact it sounds like something from the mouth of a mac devotee...

    Hope Apple keeps evolving the UI and devices to an even greater devices in the future and doesnt work like Sony and try to keep all the categories that are now. Things change and the ipad really hasnt. I mean well the hardware has but the UI is still quite the same as it came out, even if you could use it differently in you have another form factor and size. I wouldnt buy another ipad until it does something else (i use mine only for surfing/video/reading). The screen real estate thats wasted is just mindboggling to me. Its just a bigger iphone really (with the space inbetween the app launchers).

    Apple are we seeing better inbetween devices or arent we? Are you pushing up to the expectations of something greater?
    edited December 2016 ai46Rayz2016
  • Reply 37 of 104
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,924member
    As many have stated hereon the issue. I see a bigger problem looming, but hope Apple doesnt waste its time/effort/advantage now in not bringing os x and IOS together. MS has exceeded expectations for what surface could be with the 4 and how it looks like a pretty good inbetween device. I have a few corporate clients that have switched now from macs to Surface 4 (atleast started). I asked their opinion and they where very pleased with the devices. So pleased that they couldn´t stop talking about it. And when you hear this from a former mac entusiast (the person/client that I asked) it really gives me the creaps on apples situation...Infact it sounds like something from the mouth of a mac devotee...

    Hope Apple keeps evolving the UI and devices to an even greater devices in the future and doesnt work like Sony and try to keep all the categories that are now. Things change and the ipad really hasnt. I mean well the hardware has but the UI is still quite the same as it came out, even if you could use it differently in you have another form factor and size. I wouldnt buy another ipad until it does something else (i use mine only for surfing/video/reading). The screen real estate thats wasted is just mindboggling to me. Its just a bigger iphone really (with the space inbetween the app launchers).

    Apple are we seeing better inbetween devices or arent we? Are you pushing up to the expectations of something greater?
    MS only exceeded expectations with the Surface because there weren't any good expectations.

    Ios and macOS will not merge ever. Some elements may be brought over though. 

    Why change iOS for the sake of change? There has to be a good reason for a GUI change. 

    The app spacing is fine unless you want it to look like a windows desktop and you can't find anything. The app makers should build for the iPad and not stretch iPhone apps. Don't blame Apple on that. 
    SoliStrangeDaysai46ration aldysamoria
  • Reply 38 of 104
    smaffei said:
    Certainly appears that the professional Mac is going the way of the dodo at Apple. Which to seems self defeating to me considering the only way to develop iOS apps is to use a Mac. (Yes, I know about PC Hackintosh, but it's not approved). You need a reasonably beefy Mac to do decent development.

    Isn't neglecting the tools that support your bread and butter platform suicide? I hope we're not going back to the dark days of Metrowerks CodeWarrior!
    Apple's commitment to Swift is (IMO) an indicator that they are still committed to the desktop, but the desktop is usually a laptop.

    Also, I'm guessing that the Mac Pro may finally disappear and in its place the iMac may be supplemented with an iMac Pro.
    "Also, I'm guessing that the Mac Pro may finally disappear and in its place the iMac may be supplemented with an iMac Pro."

    Good chance you're probably right. But if that's the case, they should take a page out of their monitor strategy and just stop selling instead of leaving Pros wondering if they're going to continue with the Mac Pro or not.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 39 of 104
    I guess ynht said:

    Another thing that slows Mac development is Apple's reliance on Intel for an application processor. Apple doesn't face that delay and uncertainty for iPhone and iPad. Apple's work with TSMC on 7nm and 5nm processors for later in the decade puts a lot of pressure on Intel to step up its game. In recent years, Intel's biggest strategy in PC's has been partnering with Chinese makers of laptops based on the MacBook Air design. Moore's Law, it turns out, was a corporate strategy that Intel has since abandoned.
    Folks keep repeating this mantra as if repetition makes reality.

    The reality is that Intel has vastly improved performance per watt and has enabled extremely mobile laptops favored by Apple.  As nice as the A10 may be it can't do what the high end Core i7 does for the Mac and Intel has being going in the direction that Apple has wanted with the 4.5W TDP CoreM7.

    Intel hasn't been holding Apple back.  Intel has been catering to Apple's desires.  This holds true in 2016 as much as it did in 2005.


    I guess Intel is a convenient scapegoat for every Mac delay. The Mac Pro still has 2013 CPU and GPU which are Intel's and AMD's faults? The oh-so-thin, dongle-toting MBP 2016 is Intel's fault too? Or the un-upgradable 2014 Mac Mini, slower than its 2012 predecessor was due to Intel as well?

    Everyone looks at Apple's income statement and see iPhones and iPads make up 75% of revenue and Macs only 10%. It's all wrong. iPhones and iPads won't sell if there are no apps for them. And the only way to make iOS apps are with Macs (Hackintoshes are frankly not worth the headaches). Every developers I've met at Apple, Google, Twitter, Facebook, etc. all use Macs. About 70% of photographers I met use Macs. Video editors like me prefer Macs. All Jony care about these days are thinness. Sure there's a big segment of users (most students) who use an MBP as nothing more than a screen to watch cat videos. Give them a thin and light notebook. For us professionals who make a living of the computer, we don't mind a bit of thickness to trade for utilities.
    Habi_tweetdysamoriamazda 3s
  • Reply 40 of 104
    To quote Adam Engst: 
    • For power users, Apple should optimize the theoretical MacBook Pro for performance and connectivity, worrying about size, weight, and battery life secondarily. A 13-inch model might have similar performance specs to a tricked-out version of the proposed MacBook Air but with an industrial design that offers more ports: MagSafe, Thunderbolt 3, Thunderbolt 2 port, USB-A, HDMI, Ethernet, and an SD card slot. Its price might start around $1500 and go up with additional CPU and storage. For those who need the ultimate power, the 15-inch model could support amounts of RAM above what laptop chipsets can generally handle, along with a plethora of build-to-order options that could push its price from a starting point of maybe $1800 into the stratosphere. Such specs would reduce battery life and increase weight but would enable mobile professionals to rely on a single machine.

    The core problem is that Apple no longer seems to understand how Mac users choose their machines. Right now, it’s nearly impossible to figure out what Mac laptop to buy, because the three key differentiators of price, size, and performance are difficult to tease out, with all the models converging on the MacBook Air’s focus on size at the expense of price and performance.

    Plus, as Andy Ihnatko also pointed out, Apple has become a design and manufacturing company, not an engineering company. Unsurprisingly, the only Mac for which design and manufacturing matter more than anything else is the canonical MacBook Air, which needs to be magically small and light and is willing to compromise on price and performance.

    The prime directive of an engineering company is to provide products that solve users’ problems. It’s all about helping users achieve their goals with the least amount of wasted time and effort. That used to describe Apple to a T.

    Nowadays, Apple is ignoring the desires of many Mac users and focusing on making gorgeous objects that are possible purely because of the company’s leadership in advanced manufacturing techniques. That has a place with an iPhone or iPad, but who cares if an iMac is thin? You look at the front, not the edge! We don’t mind if our Macs are carved from single blocks of aluminum and feature chamfered edges, but that design won’t make us more productive. 

    When it comes to Macs, form should follow function, not force us into uncomfortable compromises.

    ai46ration aldysamoriasekatormacpluspluspscooter63Rayz2016asdasd
Sign In or Register to comment.