hi folks, i'm the guy who started this thread. I've been using macs for 12 years (a very rare thing in europe). What i wanted to put on the table was (FACTS):
-1. the Ti's DO HAVE problems (heat, noise, wireless reception.. and fragility plus scratches). That should be a serious concern for a company that says to be "thinking different". Its products should be free from the faults other manufacturer's products have.
-2. current ibooks ARE SILENT (the fan NEVER comes on, EVEN if you rest them on a bed or carpet; i can prove it)
-3. for some people ANY noise is untolerable (audio engineers with a pair of $10000 hi-res omni microphones and a string quartet)(or bjork recording voice in his living room). The same applies to ANYONE taking its Titanium to a library (shhhhhish!)
OK, Apple made a step forward in mobile computerland building a 1"thick Titanium laptop to WOW the world, but it happened that such a marvel thing does not get along very well with current Cpus. And we all demand those hot cpus to grow faster and faster everyday.
This combo equation is simply incompatable (we've seen it with the current Tis). You cannot build a super thin computer housing a teraherz processor inside a metallic housing, unless you're ready to live with burned laps and lots of noise (what renders the product useless IMHO)
either we make it thicker or design really cooler cpus (wouldnt count on the last one. it took 2.5 years for moto to jump the G4 from 500 to 1000 )
My interim solution:
Pros need a (well designed-no flaws) expandable laptop. Well, just build an hibrid icebook-titanium:
The screen case would be made from titanium as it is now. The base (where the cpu, kb, HD reside) will be made from the same material as the ibook and as thick as the white laptop, with enough space for heat to circulate thru PASSIVE dissipators.
i know that would be a Frankenstein Titanium, but at least it would be cooler and silent (and LESS THICKER than the Pismo, if you care to remember what the coolest computer was only a year ago)
enough said. Your time to flame me. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
surfing the web NEVER brings in the 3rd stage fan. Maybe you are just like my great grandmother and pump the heat so it's 90 degrees in your house
</strong><hr></blockquote>
quite the contrary. i like my place pretty cold. my titanium's fan didn't run as much when i didn't have my sony lcd monitor plugged in. but it still kicked in fairly often while on the web. now, with the monitor on, it comes on within ten minutes and can stay on for an hour. dunno why, it just does. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
-1. the Ti's DO HAVE problems (heat, noise, wireless reception.. and fragility plus scratches). That should be a serious concern for a company that says to be "thinking different". Its products should be free from the faults other manufacturer's products have.<hr></blockquote>
the heat could be and should be toned down a bit but I can't agree with your other "faults". wireless reception matches most competing products and changing the channels did wonders for my range which now gets 3 bars from about 80 feet away (length of my house). So I wuld imagine I could come close to 100 without losing a connection. Despite what the marketing says its near impossible to get 150 feet on any product with all the interference we have in the air. and paint is paint. Lombards weren't the most scratch resistant product made. I know, I used to have one. So far the Powerbook has held up better although I am careful with it.
[quote]-2. current ibooks ARE SILENT (the fan NEVER comes on, EVEN if you rest them on a bed or carpet; i can prove it)<hr></blockquote>
the iBooks hard drive alone often is louder than the Powerbook.
[quote]-3. for some people ANY noise is untolerable (audio engineers with a pair of $10000 hi-res omni microphones and a string quartet)(or bjork recording voice in his living room). The same applies to ANYONE taking its Titanium to a library (shhhhhish!)<hr></blockquote>
1.) What musician records audio without sound proofing the equipment room? there's going to be a lot more things making noise than just a laptop. and considering most audio recording is done on desktop machines with multiple fans I don't see where this arguement is coming from.
2.) fan comes on in heavy CPU or GPU use. What are you doing in a library that is going to make it come on? Play Quake 3?
[quote]
either we make it thicker or design really cooler cpus (wouldnt count on the last one. it took 2.5 years for moto to jump the G4 from 500 to 1000 )<hr></blockquote>
guess you didn't see that Mot announced the 7455
[quote]quite the contrary. i like my place pretty cold. my titanium's fan didn't run as much when i didn't have my sony lcd monitor plugged in. but it still kicked in fairly often while on the web. now, with the monitor on, it comes on within ten minutes and can stay on for an hour. dunno why, it just does. <hr></blockquote>
actually you're not alone. it seems based on people I have talked to that using an external monitor almost always triggers the 3rd level fans. perhaps its a bug or perhaps the Radeon chip really heats up outputing to a monitor
actually you're not alone. it seems based on people I have talked to that using an external monitor almost always triggers the 3rd level fans. perhaps its a bug or perhaps the Radeon chip really heats up outputing to a monitor</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess that is because of the monitor spanning - the Radeon basically has to compute twice the load.
hmmm. i wonder if it would do the same thing if i just ran the monitor alone. how do you turn off the powerbook's display while running an external again? i'll experiment.
<strong>hmmm. i wonder if it would do the same thing if i just ran the monitor alone. how do you turn off the powerbook's display while running an external again? i'll experiment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
to fully do it you need an external keyboard and mouse and to boot the powerbook with the lid closed I believe.
I usually turn the brightness down till the backlight is off but that doesn't turn the display feed off I guess
[quote] 1.) What musician records audio without sound proofing the equipment room? there's going to be a lot more things making noise than just a laptop. and considering most audio recording is done on desktop machines with multiple fans I don't see where this arguement is coming from. <hr></blockquote>
hey applenut, you're going to buy a TI and close it into the machine room? <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" /> besides, consider we're talking about a laptop, that is, a MOBILE computer; one that it's supossed to work anywhere. For example, in a church with a choir singing gregorian, or in any weird place to record that perfect vocal. just think what happens when the fans turn on in a middle of a perfect take (fortunately, first class choir's hour rate is cheap.. )
[quote] 2.) fan comes on in heavy CPU or GPU use. What are you doing in a library that is going to make it come on? Play Quake 3? <hr></blockquote>
fan does come on whenever it feels he needs to, not just during heavy cpu load. and that's the problem, you never know when the beast is going to wake up (as you cant selectively turn down resources to avoid an excess of heat)
Anyway, you seem to be so happy with the current state of the titanium. I'd wish i could say the same. Really.
[quote]<strong>you're going to buy a TI and close it into the machine room? besides, consider we're talking about a laptop, that is, a MOBILE computer; one that it's supossed to work anywhere. For example, in a church with a choir singing gregorian, or in any weird place to record that perfect vocal. just think what happens when the fans turn on in a middle of a perfect take (fortunately, first class choir's hour rate is cheap...)</strong><hr></blockquote>
If the TiBook was fanless now, you'd still have the problem of the hard drive spinning and chirping during recording - unless you have gobs and gobs of RAM. (In OS X or any Windows or Linux version, the HD would still get used periodically, because virtual memory is always on.)
[quote]<strong>fan does come on whenever it feels he needs to, not just during heavy cpu load.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Which is, when you think about it, exactly what you want a fan to do. The alternative is for the fan to run constantly...
[quote]<strong>and that's the problem, you never know when the beast is going to wake up (as you cant selectively turn down resources to avoid an excess of heat)</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you're recording audio, how many resources can you turn down? And what if you're in a room in the south of Spain with no air conditioning?
[quote]<strong>Anyway, you seem to be so happy with the current state of the titanium. I'd wish i could say the same. Really.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In all fairness, I'm not aware of a single laptop offered by anyone - hell, a single personal computer offered by anyone - that would be suited to doing high-quality on-site recording. The few fanless models out there either have CRTs (hum, whine) or chatty hard drives.
Your best bet would probably be to get a TiBook and one of those silenced DAT decks, sleep the 'book during recording, and then feed the recording from the DAT into the 'book for processing. It's not ideal, of course, but I don't see alternatives appearing any time soon.
Alternately, you could put some kind of acoustic baffle between the 'book and the mic's. I don't know how well that would work, though. Especially if you're using omni's.
The fan on my PB G4 400mhz isnt too bad, it comes on mostly while im doing processor intensive stuff like playing starcraft or quake3. Putting the port door helps make the fan go off quicker cause it doesnt block the fan slots on the back.
[quote]hey applenut, you're going to buy a TI and close it into the machine room? besides, consider we're talking about a laptop, that is, a MOBILE computer; one that it's supossed to work anywhere. For example, in a church with a choir singing gregorian, or in any weird place to record that perfect vocal. just think what happens when the fans turn on in a middle of a perfect take (fortunately, first class choir's hour rate is cheap.. )
<hr></blockquote>
show me a product that lives up to your expectations. . bet you ca't because there isn't one
yes you're both right. As of today there's no single computer made for the requirements of mobile audio recording. the closest i've found is the ibook with usb/1394 audio interfaces, not the ideal though. (well there's some 'almost silent' rackmountable PC out there but it's not the same)
When the Tibook came out everyone in the audio community got so excited as they thought the holy grail was finally here: a G4 laptop with pcmcia slot and widescreen... perfect for ptools or logic
How dissapointed it was to discover the real sad truth: too hot and too noisy to be used for remote on location rec/edit, exactly the kind of work you would do with a laptop.
[quote] If you're recording audio, how many resources can you turn down? And what if you're in a room in the south of Spain with no air conditioning? <hr></blockquote>
i'd would NEVER be in a no air-conditioning room in the south of Spain ever. Well it gets so hot during summer in Mallorca too, but then i dont get out of the sea on those months
Anyway, out of the audio field and as an MBA student, i still think the Ti does has flaws beeing too loud and hot.
the worst thing about it is that i fear there's no turning back. Once Apple has accustomed us to a 1" thick laptop, noone is going to accept a "fatter" powerbook again. But then my question is:
Are we going to suffer from excessive heat and fan noise from now on? forever? (powerbooks will be 1" or thinner and CPUs will be faster and hotter)
Comments
I believe even the 233 Wallstreet had a fan. My 250 did, ran it on a soft cloth once. It was pretty loud too.
-1. the Ti's DO HAVE problems (heat, noise, wireless reception.. and fragility plus scratches). That should be a serious concern for a company that says to be "thinking different". Its products should be free from the faults other manufacturer's products have.
-2. current ibooks ARE SILENT (the fan NEVER comes on, EVEN if you rest them on a bed or carpet; i can prove it)
-3. for some people ANY noise is untolerable (audio engineers with a pair of $10000 hi-res omni microphones and a string quartet)(or bjork recording voice in his living room). The same applies to ANYONE taking its Titanium to a library (shhhhhish!)
OK, Apple made a step forward in mobile computerland building a 1"thick Titanium laptop to WOW the world, but it happened that such a marvel thing does not get along very well with current Cpus. And we all demand those hot cpus to grow faster and faster everyday.
This combo equation is simply incompatable (we've seen it with the current Tis). You cannot build a super thin computer housing a teraherz processor inside a metallic housing, unless you're ready to live with burned laps and lots of noise (what renders the product useless IMHO)
either we make it thicker or design really cooler cpus (wouldnt count on the last one. it took 2.5 years for moto to jump the G4 from 500 to 1000
My interim solution:
Pros need a (well designed-no flaws) expandable laptop. Well, just build an hibrid icebook-titanium:
The screen case would be made from titanium as it is now. The base (where the cpu, kb, HD reside) will be made from the same material as the ibook and as thick as the white laptop, with enough space for heat to circulate thru PASSIVE dissipators.
i know that would be a Frankenstein Titanium, but at least it would be cooler and silent (and LESS THICKER than the Pismo, if you care to remember what the coolest computer was only a year ago)
enough said. Your time to flame me. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
<strong>
I have a very nice Powerbook G4/667 thank you.
surfing the web NEVER brings in the 3rd stage fan. Maybe you are just like my great grandmother and pump the heat so it's 90 degrees in your house
quite the contrary. i like my place pretty cold. my titanium's fan didn't run as much when i didn't have my sony lcd monitor plugged in. but it still kicked in fairly often while on the web. now, with the monitor on, it comes on within ten minutes and can stay on for an hour. dunno why, it just does. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
-1. the Ti's DO HAVE problems (heat, noise, wireless reception.. and fragility plus scratches). That should be a serious concern for a company that says to be "thinking different". Its products should be free from the faults other manufacturer's products have.<hr></blockquote>
the heat could be and should be toned down a bit but I can't agree with your other "faults". wireless reception matches most competing products and changing the channels did wonders for my range which now gets 3 bars from about 80 feet away (length of my house). So I wuld imagine I could come close to 100 without losing a connection. Despite what the marketing says its near impossible to get 150 feet on any product with all the interference we have in the air. and paint is paint. Lombards weren't the most scratch resistant product made. I know, I used to have one. So far the Powerbook has held up better although I am careful with it.
[quote]-2. current ibooks ARE SILENT (the fan NEVER comes on, EVEN if you rest them on a bed or carpet; i can prove it)<hr></blockquote>
the iBooks hard drive alone often is louder than the Powerbook.
[quote]-3. for some people ANY noise is untolerable (audio engineers with a pair of $10000 hi-res omni microphones and a string quartet)(or bjork recording voice in his living room). The same applies to ANYONE taking its Titanium to a library (shhhhhish!)<hr></blockquote>
1.) What musician records audio without sound proofing the equipment room? there's going to be a lot more things making noise than just a laptop. and considering most audio recording is done on desktop machines with multiple fans I don't see where this arguement is coming from.
2.) fan comes on in heavy CPU or GPU use. What are you doing in a library that is going to make it come on? Play Quake 3?
[quote]
either we make it thicker or design really cooler cpus (wouldnt count on the last one. it took 2.5 years for moto to jump the G4 from 500 to 1000 )<hr></blockquote>
guess you didn't see that Mot announced the 7455
[quote]quite the contrary. i like my place pretty cold. my titanium's fan didn't run as much when i didn't have my sony lcd monitor plugged in. but it still kicked in fairly often while on the web. now, with the monitor on, it comes on within ten minutes and can stay on for an hour. dunno why, it just does. <hr></blockquote>
actually you're not alone. it seems based on people I have talked to that using an external monitor almost always triggers the 3rd level fans. perhaps its a bug or perhaps the Radeon chip really heats up outputing to a monitor
<strong>
actually you're not alone. it seems based on people I have talked to that using an external monitor almost always triggers the 3rd level fans. perhaps its a bug or perhaps the Radeon chip really heats up outputing to a monitor</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess that is because of the monitor spanning - the Radeon basically has to compute twice the load.
<strong>hmmm. i wonder if it would do the same thing if i just ran the monitor alone. how do you turn off the powerbook's display while running an external again? i'll experiment.</strong><hr></blockquote>
to fully do it you need an external keyboard and mouse and to boot the powerbook with the lid closed I believe.
I usually turn the brightness down till the backlight is off but that doesn't turn the display feed off I guess
hey applenut, you're going to buy a TI and close it into the machine room? <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" /> besides, consider we're talking about a laptop, that is, a MOBILE computer; one that it's supossed to work anywhere. For example, in a church with a choir singing gregorian, or in any weird place to record that perfect vocal. just think what happens when the fans turn on in a middle of a perfect take (fortunately, first class choir's hour rate is cheap..
[quote] 2.) fan comes on in heavy CPU or GPU use. What are you doing in a library that is going to make it come on? Play Quake 3? <hr></blockquote>
fan does come on whenever it feels he needs to, not just during heavy cpu load. and that's the problem, you never know when the beast is going to wake up (as you cant selectively turn down resources to avoid an excess of heat)
Anyway, you seem to be so happy with the current state of the titanium. I'd wish i could say the same. Really.
[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: thatdamnmonkey ]</p>
[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: thatdamnmonkey ]</p>
If the TiBook was fanless now, you'd still have the problem of the hard drive spinning and chirping during recording - unless you have gobs and gobs of RAM. (In OS X or any Windows or Linux version, the HD would still get used periodically, because virtual memory is always on.)
[quote]<strong>fan does come on whenever it feels he needs to, not just during heavy cpu load.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Which is, when you think about it, exactly what you want a fan to do.
[quote]<strong>and that's the problem, you never know when the beast is going to wake up (as you cant selectively turn down resources to avoid an excess of heat)</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you're recording audio, how many resources can you turn down? And what if you're in a room in the south of Spain with no air conditioning?
[quote]<strong>Anyway, you seem to be so happy with the current state of the titanium. I'd wish i could say the same. Really.</strong><hr></blockquote>
In all fairness, I'm not aware of a single laptop offered by anyone - hell, a single personal computer offered by anyone - that would be suited to doing high-quality on-site recording. The few fanless models out there either have CRTs (hum, whine) or chatty hard drives.
Your best bet would probably be to get a TiBook and one of those silenced DAT decks, sleep the 'book during recording, and then feed the recording from the DAT into the 'book for processing. It's not ideal, of course, but I don't see alternatives appearing any time soon.
Alternately, you could put some kind of acoustic baffle between the 'book and the mic's. I don't know how well that would work, though. Especially if you're using omni's.
[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
<hr></blockquote>
show me a product that lives up to your expectations. . bet you ca't because there isn't one
yes you're both right. As of today there's no single computer made for the requirements of mobile audio recording. the closest i've found is the ibook with usb/1394 audio interfaces, not the ideal though. (well there's some 'almost silent' rackmountable PC out there but it's not the same)
When the Tibook came out everyone in the audio community got so excited as they thought the holy grail was finally here: a G4 laptop with pcmcia slot and widescreen... perfect for ptools or logic
How dissapointed it was to discover the real sad truth: too hot and too noisy to be used for remote on location rec/edit, exactly the kind of work you would do with a laptop.
[quote] If you're recording audio, how many resources can you turn down? And what if you're in a room in the south of Spain with no air conditioning? <hr></blockquote>
i'd would NEVER be in a no air-conditioning room in the south of Spain ever. Well it gets so hot during summer in Mallorca too, but then i dont get out of the sea on those months
Anyway, out of the audio field and as an MBA student, i still think the Ti does has flaws beeing too loud and hot.
the worst thing about it is that i fear there's no turning back. Once Apple has accustomed us to a 1" thick laptop, noone is going to accept a "fatter" powerbook again. But then my question is:
Are we going to suffer from excessive heat and fan noise from now on? forever? (powerbooks will be 1" or thinner and CPUs will be faster and hotter)
i think that's a step backwards, IMHO.