Apple says 'looking into' video of apparent iPhone 7 Plus meltdown

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 54
    irelandireland Posts: 17,584member
    Soli said:
    JinTech said:
    Wonder if they are using Apple branded wall chargers or third party.
    While it's entirely possible that out of over a billion products Apple has sold with a lithium-ion polymer battery that they caught on camera a defective unit, I'd guess the most likely culprit is from cheap and/or counterfeit PSUs. Maybe Apple should do more to keep their devices from accepting power from questionable chargers or maybe we need regulations that prevent poorly made PSUs and cables from being at every check out counter.

    No. I already debunked this last time. The circuitry (usually a power management IC) to control battery charging is inside the iPhone. The charger is just a "dumb" power supply that sends voltage to the charging circuit.

    These circuits are fairly robust and can handle overvoltages several times their normal operating voltage (5V for iPhones from USB). 
    I don't know if it's as simple as that. I used (once) a non-Apple charger (fake one; one that looked like an Apple one which I bought while in another city in a Chinese shop for cheap; out of town one day) and during charging the phone display reacted bizarrely to scrolls and touches. I have never experience that with a genuine Apple charger in all the years I've been charging. I'd say the likelihood it was the dodgy charger and that it was feeding the phone the incorrect amount of voltage or similar is extremely high. You didn't debunk it for me. Whatever this charger was doing it was reaching as far as how the display functions—and the phone was getting warm. I immediately removed the charger.
    edited February 2017 macpluspluswatto_cobraargonaut
  • Reply 22 of 54
    rwesrwes Posts: 165member
    rob55 said:
    rwes said:

    ...That being said, a majority of people don't know/care to know how to handle their cables.
    My co-worker borrowed my pristine lightning cable earlier this week for a sum total of about 24 hours, and when I got it back, it did not look like the same cable. There was what looked like a coffee stain on it, and the lightning end looked noticeably dirty compared to the other end. I actually asked her, "what did you do to this thing?" She just shrugged and denied mistreating it. Plus one for people definitely not caring how they handle their cables.
    It's bad - I actually shrug when people (good friends!) ask to borrow my cables, and think: "Oh well, there goes one". I have not yet had to replace one of my own.

    Another close/good friend actually mistakenly tried to take one of my cables. "No no no, mine is the one that looks like new, though it's at least 4 years old; yours is the one that looks like you were playing tug of war with it, though it's barely 4 months old" is what I should have said.
    randominternetpersonjahbladerob55watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 54
    All Lithium ion batteries contain a huge amount of energy. If the battery internals are damaged and allow for an internal short the results are spectacular. You have to be very careful with the charging circuitry as well. 

    Cheap 3rd party chargers and cables could be the cause. Also damaging the phone via drop damage that compromises the battery in some way is possible. 

    There is a David Pogue Nova episode Season 44 Episode 10 "Search for the Super Battery" that goes into depth on the Lithium Ion batteries. Plus a new design that cannot explode.  
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 54
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,748member
    rwes said:
    avon b7 said:
    JinTech said:
    Wonder if they are using Apple branded wall chargers or third party.
    She's using a cheap off brand charger with no protection circuitry... I guarantee it.

    Take any iPhone and run 120v (or even 30v) thru the charging port and you can likely overwhelm the protection circuitry built into the phone over time (it's designed for transients, not 8 hours of charging 20 days a month!) 

    Eventually the phone can't protect itself, the LiIon battery gets over charged and puffs up like this.  (The expansion is the protective plastic shell the battery is in preventing a very explosive lithium fire.)

    I've done a lot of damage to lithium batteries as part of Robot combat events (think BattleBots but smaller).  They are very powerful, and have to be treated right.

    This is why you NEVER use anything but an Apple charger.
    Third party chargers can be worse, as good as, or better than Apple chargers. If Apple charged less for chargers people would be less tempted to go non-Apple. Their chargers are anything but robust and have a long history of poor design with cable ends. I have no idea why lightening connector casings aren't stronger and do not flange slightly on either side to able to pull them out more easily. A slight curve would make things far easier for people to pull out. Especially people who aren't able to apply much force between thumb and index finger.

    Given the simple function of the device, I'd implement a lifetime warranty and ask users to hand in the failed charger to get a new one. No doubt it would lead to an instant improvement in the basic design.
    Some of my favorite links to provide people (often friends, who still probably never read them):
    http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab-apple-is.html
    http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.html
    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38167551

    macarena said:
    Karma catching up? For a long time, Apple has been tempting karma - selling overpriced lightning cables to customers whose cables frayed out within months, soldering RAM into the motherboards, so that customers have no choice but to accept Apple's rip off pricing, etc. When a company goes out of its way to screw its own loyal customers, you can be assured that its day of reckoning is coming. It is ridiculous that a company that makes such humongous profits and that charges such a stiff price for admission into their walled garden finds the need to rip off even its own loyal customers this way. And not just the company, even Apple shareholders and Apple fan boys rubbed their hands in glee when Samsung had a huge loss from the Note 7 recall. There's lot of bad karma in there too. Apple's greed will only get worse. They will keep pushing the envelope, trying to make the phones thinner - even if the wimpy batteries struggle to last the whole day! They only care for making these devices as thin and as light as possible. Obviously, all that thinness and lightness is making the devices vulnerable to such problems. It is indeed unbelievable how many people hate Apple. And how even a lot of Apple's customers hate the company.
    I'm a little biased, being a little bit obsessive compulsive (and having worked for 'cable' manufacturers), but people could treat their cables better. I loaned a lighting cable to a friend to charge his phone, in a rented vehicle. At one point, I grabbed his phone, by reaching for and pulling the cable first, no where near the (small) strain relife on the cable. I nicely asked him not to do that and explain why. I have lightning cables, in near perfect conditions (aside from some discoloration due to long use), from when I got my iPhone 5. That being said, a majority of people don't know/care to know how to handle their cables.
    Both the tech articles are excellent which I read back in the day. They are a little long in the tooth now but still valid. It would be nice to see updates of both with today's chargers.

    Personally, on the cable side, I think Apple has gone too thin and should reinforce the casing of the connector and something to assist in removing them.

    Your car anecdote reminded my of the first time I saw an Apple tech disconnect a SCSI cable on one of my Macs. Simply unscrewed both screws and gave a swift, controlled yank on the cable. LOL. Just like removing a plaster.


    edited February 2017
  • Reply 25 of 54
    macarena said:
    It is indeed unbelievable how many people hate Apple. And how even a lot of Apple's customers hate the company.
    Yes, indeed, that is unbelievable.
    Rayz2016jahbladeStrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 54
    irelandireland Posts: 17,584member
    rwes said:
    rob55 said:
    rwes said:

    ...That being said, a majority of people don't know/care to know how to handle their cables.
    My co-worker borrowed my pristine lightning cable earlier this week for a sum total of about 24 hours, and when I got it back, it did not look like the same cable. There was what looked like a coffee stain on it, and the lightning end looked noticeably dirty compared to the other end. I actually asked her, "what did you do to this thing?" She just shrugged and denied mistreating it. Plus one for people definitely not caring how they handle their cables.
    It's bad - I actually shrug when people (good friends!) ask to borrow my cables, and think: "Oh well, there goes one". I have not yet had to replace one of my own.

    Another close/good friend actually mistakenly tried to take one of my cables. "No no no, mine is the one that looks like new, though it's at least 4 years old; yours is the one that looks like you were playing tug of war with it, though it's barely 4 months old" is what I should have said.
    I've never had to replace one of mine either. Well I did twice through the fault of my nieces and nephews. That said, the Lightning cables are way too fragile. When sitting around to design a charging cable in the lab—if they have higher goals beyond making money—Apple designers should first say, "well we know this charger may be used by at least three people 1,000 times per year for several years, so let's design to withstand that". Then perhaps they'd ship a cable that was tougher. They really are very brittle for what they will be used for, and on top of that they are expensive (€25 without a plug). This is why so many people in my country use fake charges. If Apple's ones were tough/better and weren't so expensive people would have no excuses, but they are not. They are under-engineered and overpriced. And IMO if iPhones go on fire thanks to people using non-Apple chargers a lot of that blame must fall on Apple. Make good, fairy priced chargers and your customers will have no need to go elsewhere to charge your product. Simple as.
    edited February 2017
  • Reply 27 of 54
    Soli said:
    JinTech said:
    Wonder if they are using Apple branded wall chargers or third party.
    While it's entirely possible that out of over a billion products Apple has sold with a lithium-ion polymer battery that they caught on camera a defective unit, I'd guess the most likely culprit is from cheap and/or counterfeit PSUs. Maybe Apple should do more to keep their devices from accepting power from questionable chargers or maybe we need regulations that prevent poorly made PSUs and cables from being at every check out counter.

    No. I already debunked this last time. The circuitry (usually a power management IC) to control battery charging is inside the iPhone. The charger is just a "dumb" power supply that sends voltage to the charging circuit.

    These circuits are fairly robust and can handle overvoltages several times their normal operating voltage (5V for iPhones from USB). They also have protection to shut down in case of excess voltage, short circuits or reverse polarity. In short, your battery isn't going to overcharge because the charger is putting out too much power since your battery has no direct connection to the charger.

    In the case of extreme voltage (say 100V) the circuitry, circuit board traces and other components are going to go up in smoke (essentially a very expensive fuse) long before any of that voltage gets to your battery. So you'd have a small smoke show, but your battery would be ok.
    Charger is definitely an issue. How do you endorse that any charger will supply current on correct pins and won't have any current leak on other pins? In my experience an unnamed charger definitely affected the touch screen, making it stutter and consequently unusable. Here is a current leak on the grounding plates.
    StrangeDayspscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 54
    ireland said:
    Soli said:
    JinTech said:
    Wonder if they are using Apple branded wall chargers or third party.
    While it's entirely possible that out of over a billion products Apple has sold with a lithium-ion polymer battery that they caught on camera a defective unit, I'd guess the most likely culprit is from cheap and/or counterfeit PSUs. Maybe Apple should do more to keep their devices from accepting power from questionable chargers or maybe we need regulations that prevent poorly made PSUs and cables from being at every check out counter.

    No. I already debunked this last time. The circuitry (usually a power management IC) to control battery charging is inside the iPhone. The charger is just a "dumb" power supply that sends voltage to the charging circuit.

    These circuits are fairly robust and can handle overvoltages several times their normal operating voltage (5V for iPhones from USB). 
    I don't know if it's as simple as that. I used (once) a non-Apple charger (fake one; one that looked like an Apple one which I bought while in another city in a Chinese shop for cheap; out of town one day) and during charging the phone display reacted bizarrely to scrolls and touches. I have never experience that with a genuine Apple charger in all the years I've been charging. I'd say the likelihood it was the dodgy charger and that it was feeding the phone the incorrect amount of voltage or similar is extremely high. You didn't debunk it for me. Whatever this charger was doing it was reaching as far as how the display functions—and the phone was getting warm. I immediately removed the charger.
    I experienced exactly the same issue with a fake charger.
    irelandwatto_cobraargonaut
  • Reply 29 of 54
    avon b7 said:
    P-DogNC said:
    I guess Macarena's post predictably shows that "haters gotta hate".
    Would it be equally true to say "lovers Gotta love"?

    The real point though, is how do you know which is which or neither of the two?
    By simply using rational thought?
    Rayz2016StrangeDayspscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 54
    ireland said:
    Soli said:
    JinTech said:
    Wonder if they are using Apple branded wall chargers or third party.
    While it's entirely possible that out of over a billion products Apple has sold with a lithium-ion polymer battery that they caught on camera a defective unit, I'd guess the most likely culprit is from cheap and/or counterfeit PSUs. Maybe Apple should do more to keep their devices from accepting power from questionable chargers or maybe we need regulations that prevent poorly made PSUs and cables from being at every check out counter.

    No. I already debunked this last time. The circuitry (usually a power management IC) to control battery charging is inside the iPhone. The charger is just a "dumb" power supply that sends voltage to the charging circuit.

    These circuits are fairly robust and can handle overvoltages several times their normal operating voltage (5V for iPhones from USB). 
    I don't know if it's as simple as that. I used (once) a non-Apple charger (fake one; one that looked like an Apple one which I bought while in another city in a Chinese shop for cheap; out of town one day) and during charging the phone display reacted bizarrely to scrolls and touches. I have never experience that with a genuine Apple charger in all the years I've been charging. I'd say the likelihood it was the dodgy charger and that it was feeding the phone the incorrect amount of voltage or similar is extremely high. You didn't debunk it for me. Whatever this charger was doing it was reaching as far as how the display functions—and the phone was getting warm. I immediately removed the charger.
    I experienced exactly the same issue with a fake charger.
    Same.
    irelandwatto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 54
    calicali Posts: 3,495member
    macarena said:
    Karma catching up? For a long time, Apple has been tempting karma - selling overpriced lightning cables to customers whose cables frayed out within months, soldering RAM into the motherboards, so that customers have no choice but to accept Apple's rip off pricing, etc. When a company goes out of its way to screw its own loyal customers, you can be assured that its day of reckoning is coming. It is ridiculous that a company that makes such humongous profits and that charges such a stiff price for admission into their walled garden finds the need to rip off even its own loyal customers this way. And not just the company, even Apple shareholders and Apple fan boys rubbed their hands in glee when Samsung had a huge loss from the Note 7 recall. There's lot of bad karma in there too. Apple's greed will only get worse. They will keep pushing the envelope, trying to make the phones thinner - even if the wimpy batteries struggle to last the whole day! They only care for making these devices as thin and as light as possible. Obviously, all that thinness and lightness is making the devices vulnerable to such problems. It is indeed unbelievable how many people hate Apple. And how even a lot of Apple's customers hate the company.

    What karma?
    People who hate Apple are sheep and will believe anything the paid Apple hating media will tell them. Go use knockoffs if you hate Apple so much. 
    edited February 2017 SoliSpamSandwichStrangeDayspscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 54
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,800member
    All Lithium ion batteries contain a huge amount of energy. If the battery internals are damaged and allow for an internal short the results are spectacular. You have to be very careful with the charging circuitry as well. 

    Cheap 3rd party chargers and cables could be the cause. Also damaging the phone via drop damage that compromises the battery in some way is possible. 

    There is a David Pogue Nova episode Season 44 Episode 10 "Search for the Super Battery" that goes into depth on the Lithium Ion batteries. Plus a new design that cannot explode.  
    That's an amazing* episode. Unfortunately they didn't get into the limitations and issues with Mike Zimmerman's plastic polymer lithium battery.


    * They're all amazing, even this week's episode on the scientific applications of origami. It's amazing this series spanning 5 decades is funded by the David Koch.
  • Reply 33 of 54
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,800member
    A cheap and easy solution for extending the life of your frequently used and abused cables is to secure the end(s) with shrink tubing. Unlike other cable ends, Lightning is just small enough work with a 1/4"diameter tubing that will shrink down over the wires thickness.


    Doing this to your MagSafe connector is a little trickier. You either need to use a single loop so you can slide over the wire only, or you need to get clever with a utility knife to cut a tube down its length, cut it to create an arrow on one end, wrap to measure, then cut an slit to feed the arrow, shrink, and then repeat until you can slip a 1/2" piece over the MagSafe and shrink to tighten on your cable. I did the former because it takes only 60 seconds. I love MagSafe, but I can't wait until I move to USB-C.
    edited February 2017 watto_cobraargonaut
  • Reply 34 of 54
    er, what is the purpose of the "scare quotes" around Apple looking into this? typical scare quotes are used to make a subtextual commentary -- like casting doubt on the claim that they're looking into it, or suggesting that's insufficient action, etc.
    SpamSandwichwatto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 54
    Soli said:
    JinTech said:
    Wonder if they are using Apple branded wall chargers or third party.
    While it's entirely possible that out of over a billion products Apple has sold with a lithium-ion polymer battery that they caught on camera a defective unit, I'd guess the most likely culprit is from cheap and/or counterfeit PSUs. Maybe Apple should do more to keep their devices from accepting power from questionable chargers or maybe we need regulations that prevent poorly made PSUs and cables from being at every check out counter.

    No. I already debunked this last time. The circuitry (usually a power management IC) to control battery charging is inside the iPhone. The charger is just a "dumb" power supply that sends voltage to the charging circuit.

    These circuits are fairly robust and can handle overvoltages several times their normal operating voltage (5V for iPhones from USB). They also have protection to shut down in case of excess voltage, short circuits or reverse polarity. In short, your battery isn't going to overcharge because the charger is putting out too much power since your battery has no direct connection to the charger.

    In the case of extreme voltage (say 100V) the circuitry, circuit board traces and other components are going to go up in smoke (essentially a very expensive fuse) long before any of that voltage gets to your battery. So you'd have a small smoke show, but your battery would be ok.
    Pretty sure that's entirely incorrect. Counterfeit charges were blamed for previous electrocutions. There have been many articles written about the safety hazard w/ poor chargers:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38167551
    https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/06/please-dont-buy-cheap-phone-chargers-and-cables/
    http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/apple/are-cheap-iphone-chargers-safe-unofficial-apple-power-chargers-safety-tips-3460975/
    http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-chargers-pricey.html

    And this teardown, which compares a cheap knockoff's safety components to Apple's official:

    http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.html

    ...Daringfireball linked to that one and is seems to be the boss. Cheap knockoff chargers are dangerous.
    edited February 2017 watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 54
    I find it interesting that the aluminum appears to have melted. It was reported that Apple was using a 7000 series aluminum. A common series is 7075 which is solidus at 890 degrees F and liquidus at 1175 degrees F. It seems unlikely that a short in the battery would produce these temperatures. Could we be looking at a fake iPhone?
    SpamSandwichwatto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 54
    macarena said:
    Karma catching up? For a long time, Apple has been tempting karma - selling overpriced lightning cables to customers whose cables frayed out within months, soldering RAM into the motherboards, so that customers have no choice but to accept Apple's rip off pricing, etc. When a company goes out of its way to screw its own loyal customers, you can be assured that its day of reckoning is coming. It is ridiculous that a company that makes such humongous profits and that charges such a stiff price for admission into their walled garden finds the need to rip off even its own loyal customers this way. And not just the company, even Apple shareholders and Apple fan boys rubbed their hands in glee when Samsung had a huge loss from the Note 7 recall. There's lot of bad karma in there too. Apple's greed will only get worse. They will keep pushing the envelope, trying to make the phones thinner - even if the wimpy batteries struggle to last the whole day! They only care for making these devices as thin and as light as possible. Obviously, all that thinness and lightness is making the devices vulnerable to such problems. It is indeed unbelievable how many people hate Apple. And how even a lot of Apple's customers hate the company.
    No, one phone malfunctioning for reasons unknown is not karma. Nor are Apple's products overpriced, just because you wish they were cheaper.

    For details on why Apple's safe chargers cost more than cheap knockoffs, educate yourself here:

    http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.html

    Conclusions

    Apple's iPhone charger crams a lot of technology into a small space. Apple went to extra effort to provide higher quality and safety than other name-brand chargers, but this quality comes at a high cost.
    Solipscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 54
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,800member
    Soli said:
    JinTech said:
    Wonder if they are using Apple branded wall chargers or third party.
    While it's entirely possible that out of over a billion products Apple has sold with a lithium-ion polymer battery that they caught on camera a defective unit, I'd guess the most likely culprit is from cheap and/or counterfeit PSUs. Maybe Apple should do more to keep their devices from accepting power from questionable chargers or maybe we need regulations that prevent poorly made PSUs and cables from being at every check out counter.

    No. I already debunked this last time. The circuitry (usually a power management IC) to control battery charging is inside the iPhone. The charger is just a "dumb" power supply that sends voltage to the charging circuit.

    These circuits are fairly robust and can handle overvoltages several times their normal operating voltage (5V for iPhones from USB). They also have protection to shut down in case of excess voltage, short circuits or reverse polarity. In short, your battery isn't going to overcharge because the charger is putting out too much power since your battery has no direct connection to the charger.

    In the case of extreme voltage (say 100V) the circuitry, circuit board traces and other components are going to go up in smoke (essentially a very expensive fuse) long before any of that voltage gets to your battery. So you'd have a small smoke show, but your battery would be ok.
    Pretty sure that's entirely incorrect. Counterfeit charges were blamed for previous electrocutions. There have been many articles written about the safety hazard w/ poor chargers:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38167551
    https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/06/please-dont-buy-cheap-phone-chargers-and-cables/
    http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/apple/are-cheap-iphone-chargers-safe-unofficial-apple-power-chargers-safety-tips-3460975/
    http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-chargers-pricey.html

    And this teardown, which compares a cheap knockoff's safety components to Apple's official:

    http://www.righto.com/2012/05/apple-iphone-charger-teardown-quality.html

    ...Daringfireball linked to that one and is seems to be the boss. Cheap knockoff chargers are dangerous.
    Adding to that, while the electronics aren't as "intelligent" as other modern components, saying the PSU is "dumb" is disingenuous, and dangerous if you get people to believe that all PSUs are the same, especially if they "look" the same on the outside.

    Here's a picture of a genuine Apple PSU and a counterfeit. Can you tell which is which simply by eyeballing it? Now, if all those extra components didn't serve a purpose, why would Apple include them?


    edited February 2017 StrangeDayspscooter63watto_cobraibillbestkeptsecret
  • Reply 39 of 54
    How long before the Note 8 launches?  Any possibility this is a viral stunt?
    watto_cobradtb200
  • Reply 40 of 54
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,748member
    Mikeymike said:
    avon b7 said:
    P-DogNC said:
    I guess Macarena's post predictably shows that "haters gotta hate".
    Would it be equally true to say "lovers Gotta love"?

    The real point though, is how do you know which is which or neither of the two?
    By simply using rational thought?
    So rational thought is enough, although you are only using a sample of someone's posts on a forum? Nothing else? 

    Is there anything rational about reaching a conclusion in that way?

    Was there anything rational in the "hater gotta hate" line?


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