Huawei and fellow Chinese phonemakers Oppo and Xiaomi are expected to adopt 3D sensors on upcoming 2018 models, following in the footsteps of the iPhone X's TrueDepth camera.
It looks rather similar to Apple's system, no surprise there. It can capture 300,000 points in under 10 seconds (iPhone X does 30,000 points, but in a shorter amount of time). Huawei also claims their system will unlock in 0.4 seconds.
If it works as well as they claim, and that's an "if", then it would seem they're able to catch up to the hardware in a pretty short amount of time. Huawei also has a Neural Processing Unit as part of their Kirin 970 that's considerably more powerful than Apple's Neural Engine in the A11 Bionic, so all that remains is the software.
Can you provide me with a reference that the Kirin 970 neural processing unit is considerably more powerful than Apples Neural Engine?
Kirin 970's NPU offers 1.92 trillion operations per second, Apple's Neural Engine offers 600 billion operations per second. For further comparison, both are well behind Google's PVC in the Pixel 2 / Pixel 2 XL which offers 3 trillion operations per second.
Completely useless self defined spec with no standardization, but go on buddy spit it out if it makes you feel better.
And as for insults, I insult just trolls who think parking here at Appleinsider will "teach us" and yeah you're not the first here to do that, Googlehead's been there spitting out useless stats and distorsions longer than you.
It's not useless. Through quantization you can use an 8-bit integer in a neural network prediction while maintaining useful accuracy. On that basis, it's very straight forward to compare.
Remember, honey, not vinegar.
Nah it’s just specs. Specs is specs. Specs aren’t the only thing that matter, especially when the total experience is worse off. The A11 specs are impressive because it’s best in class and the iOS experience is better than the knockoffs. The “neural” spec you’ve cited is rather meaningless because the knockoff experience is inferior to iOS.
Huawei and fellow Chinese phonemakers Oppo and Xiaomi are expected to adopt 3D sensors on upcoming 2018 models, following in the footsteps of the iPhone X's TrueDepth camera.
It looks rather similar to Apple's system, no surprise there. It can capture 300,000 points in under 10 seconds (iPhone X does 30,000 points, but in a shorter amount of time). Huawei also claims their system will unlock in 0.4 seconds.
If it works as well as they claim, and that's an "if", then it would seem they're able to catch up to the hardware in a pretty short amount of time. Huawei also has a Neural Processing Unit as part of their Kirin 970 that's considerably more powerful than Apple's Neural Engine in the A11 Bionic, so all that remains is the software.
Can you provide me with a reference that the Kirin 970 neural processing unit is considerably more powerful than Apples Neural Engine?
Kirin 970's NPU offers 1.92 trillion operations per second, Apple's Neural Engine offers 600 billion operations per second. For further comparison, both are well behind Google's PVC in the Pixel 2 / Pixel 2 XL which offers 3 trillion operations per second.
Completely useless self defined spec with no standardization, but go on buddy spit it out if it makes you feel better.
And as for insults, I insult just trolls who think parking here at Appleinsider will "teach us" and yeah you're not the first here to do that, Googlehead's been there spitting out useless stats and distorsions longer than you.
It's not useless. Through quantization you can use an 8-bit integer in a neural network prediction while maintaining useful accuracy. On that basis, it's very straight forward to compare.
Remember, honey, not vinegar.
Nah it’s just specs. Specs is specs. Specs aren’t the only thing that matter, especially when the total experience is worse off. The A11 specs are impressive because it’s best in class and the iOS experience is better than the knockoffs. The “neural” spec you’ve cited is rather meaningless because the knockoff experience is inferior to iOS.
These specs have real world use. For example, Huawei leverages the NPU to allow for fast/accurate offline language translation and character recognition between 12 different languages. The language packs are also half the size of a traditional language pack.
However, it's hard to take you seriously when you're making ridiculous blanket statements or name calling the competition.
I had one coworker who is very proud of Huawei's ability to copy Apple. He said if Apple uses one hundred employees to develop a new feature, Huawei can assemble a team of one thousand people to quickly copy over. It seems if he said is true this is a no win for Apple.
Huawei and fellow Chinese phonemakers Oppo and Xiaomi are expected to adopt 3D sensors on upcoming 2018 models, following in the footsteps of the iPhone X's TrueDepth camera.
It looks rather similar to Apple's system, no surprise there. It can capture 300,000 points in under 10 seconds (iPhone X does 30,000 points, but in a shorter amount of time). Huawei also claims their system will unlock in 0.4 seconds.
If it works as well as they claim, and that's an "if", then it would seem they're able to catch up to the hardware in a pretty short amount of time. Huawei also has a Neural Processing Unit as part of their Kirin 970 that's considerably more powerful than Apple's Neural Engine in the A11 Bionic, so all that remains is the software.
Can you provide me with a reference that the Kirin 970 neural processing unit is considerably more powerful than Apples Neural Engine?
Kirin 970's NPU offers 1.92 trillion operations per second, Apple's Neural Engine offers 600 billion operations per second. For further comparison, both are well behind Google's PVC in the Pixel 2 / Pixel 2 XL which offers 3 trillion operations per second.
Completely useless self defined spec with no standardization, but go on buddy spit it out if it makes you feel better.
And as for insults, I insult just trolls who think parking here at Appleinsider will "teach us" and yeah you're not the first here to do that, Googlehead's been there spitting out useless stats and distorsions longer than you.
It's not useless. Through quantization you can use an 8-bit integer in a neural network prediction while maintaining useful accuracy. On that basis, it's very straight forward to compare.
Remember, honey, not vinegar.
Nah it’s just specs. Specs is specs. Specs aren’t the only thing that matter, especially when the total experience is worse off. The A11 specs are impressive because it’s best in class and the iOS experience is better than the knockoffs. The “neural” spec you’ve cited is rather meaningless because the knockoff experience is inferior to iOS.
These specs have real world use. For example, Huawei leverages the NPU to allow for fast/accurate offline language translation and character recognition between 12 different languages. The language packs are also half the size of a traditional language pack.
However, it's hard to take you seriously when you're making ridiculous blanket statements or name calling the competition.
I respect your debate style. You presented facts with citation, showed relevance of specs with clear specifics, justified your counter arguments, refrained from personal insults, and you did not even get flustered in the face of irrational iOS superiority dogma. You passed our grueling test, you may stay.
Huawei and fellow Chinese phonemakers Oppo and Xiaomi are expected to adopt 3D sensors on upcoming 2018 models, following in the footsteps of the iPhone X's TrueDepth camera.
It looks rather similar to Apple's system, no surprise there. It can capture 300,000 points in under 10 seconds (iPhone X does 30,000 points, but in a shorter amount of time). Huawei also claims their system will unlock in 0.4 seconds.
If it works as well as they claim, and that's an "if", then it would seem they're able to catch up to the hardware in a pretty short amount of time. Huawei also has a Neural Processing Unit as part of their Kirin 970 that's considerably more powerful than Apple's Neural Engine in the A11 Bionic, so all that remains is the software.
Can you provide me with a reference that the Kirin 970 neural processing unit is considerably more powerful than Apples Neural Engine?
Kirin 970's NPU offers 1.92 trillion operations per second, Apple's Neural Engine offers 600 billion operations per second. For further comparison, both are well behind Google's PVC in the Pixel 2 / Pixel 2 XL which offers 3 trillion operations per second.
Completely useless self defined spec with no standardization, but go on buddy spit it out if it makes you feel better.
And as for insults, I insult just trolls who think parking here at Appleinsider will "teach us" and yeah you're not the first here to do that, Googlehead's been there spitting out useless stats and distorsions longer than you.
It's not useless. Through quantization you can use an 8-bit integer in a neural network prediction while maintaining useful accuracy. On that basis, it's very straight forward to compare.
Remember, honey, not vinegar.
Nah it’s just specs. Specs is specs. Specs aren’t the only thing that matter, especially when the total experience is worse off. The A11 specs are impressive because it’s best in class and the iOS experience is better than the knockoffs. The “neural” spec you’ve cited is rather meaningless because the knockoff experience is inferior to iOS.
These specs have real world use. For example, Huawei leverages the NPU to allow for fast/accurate offline language translation and character recognition between 12 different languages. The language packs are also half the size of a traditional language pack.
However, it's hard to take you seriously when you're making ridiculous blanket statements or name calling the competition.
What blanket statements? iOS is a better experience than Android. What name calling? Those Android devices are indeed knockoffs of the iPhone. What part of reality do you have a problem with?
You've cited specs and suggested it will enable better translation services. Is that actual, today? Sounds neat, but if it's still on a crummier Android knockoff with a poorer overall user experience than iOS, I fail to see the value when compared to the A11 and the superior experience on an iOS device.
Huawei and fellow Chinese phonemakers Oppo and Xiaomi are expected to adopt 3D sensors on upcoming 2018 models, following in the footsteps of the iPhone X's TrueDepth camera.
It looks rather similar to Apple's system, no surprise there. It can capture 300,000 points in under 10 seconds (iPhone X does 30,000 points, but in a shorter amount of time). Huawei also claims their system will unlock in 0.4 seconds.
If it works as well as they claim, and that's an "if", then it would seem they're able to catch up to the hardware in a pretty short amount of time. Huawei also has a Neural Processing Unit as part of their Kirin 970 that's considerably more powerful than Apple's Neural Engine in the A11 Bionic, so all that remains is the software.
Can you provide me with a reference that the Kirin 970 neural processing unit is considerably more powerful than Apples Neural Engine?
Kirin 970's NPU offers 1.92 trillion operations per second, Apple's Neural Engine offers 600 billion operations per second. For further comparison, both are well behind Google's PVC in the Pixel 2 / Pixel 2 XL which offers 3 trillion operations per second.
Completely useless self defined spec with no standardization, but go on buddy spit it out if it makes you feel better.
And as for insults, I insult just trolls who think parking here at Appleinsider will "teach us" and yeah you're not the first here to do that, Googlehead's been there spitting out useless stats and distorsions longer than you.
It's not useless. Through quantization you can use an 8-bit integer in a neural network prediction while maintaining useful accuracy. On that basis, it's very straight forward to compare.
Remember, honey, not vinegar.
Nah it’s just specs. Specs is specs. Specs aren’t the only thing that matter, especially when the total experience is worse off. The A11 specs are impressive because it’s best in class and the iOS experience is better than the knockoffs. The “neural” spec you’ve cited is rather meaningless because the knockoff experience is inferior to iOS.
These specs have real world use. For example, Huawei leverages the NPU to allow for fast/accurate offline language translation and character recognition between 12 different languages. The language packs are also half the size of a traditional language pack.
However, it's hard to take you seriously when you're making ridiculous blanket statements or name calling the competition.
I respect your debate style. You presented facts with citation, showed relevance of specs with clear specifics, justified your counter arguments, refrained from personal insults, and you did not even get flustered in the face of irrational iOS superiority dogma. You passed our grueling test, you may stay.
Nope, it's not irrational. I didn't come out of the womb knowing iOS was better. It's a conclusion based on observation. The overall user experience matters, and that's largely based on the software platform -- and this is where iOS excels over the various knockoffs and their various Android versions.
Apple observer John Gruber is incredibly rational and discusses this at greater length under the A11 Bionic Chip section header:
I had one coworker who is very proud of Huawei's ability to copy Apple. He said if Apple uses one hundred employees to develop a new feature, Huawei can assemble a team of one thousand people to quickly copy over. It seems if he said is true this is a no win for Apple.
What a strange, scary world we live in. The pressure on Apple and other pathfinding companies must be intense. Imagine spending years working out the painstaking details to get a product to market and then have someone develop a clone of that product in a few months and sell it for a fraction of the cost.
Huawei and fellow Chinese phonemakers Oppo and Xiaomi are expected to adopt 3D sensors on upcoming 2018 models, following in the footsteps of the iPhone X's TrueDepth camera.
It looks rather similar to Apple's system, no surprise there. It can capture 300,000 points in under 10 seconds (iPhone X does 30,000 points, but in a shorter amount of time). Huawei also claims their system will unlock in 0.4 seconds.
If it works as well as they claim, and that's an "if", then it would seem they're able to catch up to the hardware in a pretty short amount of time. Huawei also has a Neural Processing Unit as part of their Kirin 970 that's considerably more powerful than Apple's Neural Engine in the A11 Bionic, so all that remains is the software.
Can you provide me with a reference that the Kirin 970 neural processing unit is considerably more powerful than Apples Neural Engine?
Kirin 970's NPU offers 1.92 trillion operations per second, Apple's Neural Engine offers 600 billion operations per second. For further comparison, both are well behind Google's PVC in the Pixel 2 / Pixel 2 XL which offers 3 trillion operations per second.
Completely useless self defined spec with no standardization, but go on buddy spit it out if it makes you feel better.
And as for insults, I insult just trolls who think parking here at Appleinsider will "teach us" and yeah you're not the first here to do that, Googlehead's been there spitting out useless stats and distorsions longer than you.
It's not useless. Through quantization you can use an 8-bit integer in a neural network prediction while maintaining useful accuracy. On that basis, it's very straight forward to compare.
Remember, honey, not vinegar.
Nah it’s just specs. Specs is specs. Specs aren’t the only thing that matter, especially when the total experience is worse off. The A11 specs are impressive because it’s best in class and the iOS experience is better than the knockoffs. The “neural” spec you’ve cited is rather meaningless because the knockoff experience is inferior to iOS.
Using both iOS and Android daily, I can tell you I would not voluntarily go back to iOS as a main use phone OS.
For various reasons I'm stuck on iOS 8 on the iPad Mini 2 and have iOS 11 on the Air 2 but don't have an Android tablet to compare to, so that comparison isn't an option for me.
I can't see where the Android experience is inferior for phone use. Can you give some examples?
As for specs, what do you say about specs that simply don't exist on iPhones?
When you say 'best in class' you certainly weren't talking about the modem on the SoC, or dual simultaneous VoLTE or fast charging or the AI that enhances call quality, voice recognition or motion blur on the camera etc.
As for the NPU, there are no benchmark tools to compare them on real world tasks but I have seen some numbers (from HiSilicon no less) of the Kirin 970 NPU running head to head against the A11 NPU. The Kirin 970 was ahead of the A11 (quite far ahead in some results). I've not mentioned those numbers before because I think they are largely worthless. AI for the NPU largely depends on the training pumped into it. We are seeing the first infant steps in this regard and Huawei are strong out of the gate here. They are supporting both FaceBook and Google AI on the NPU through the Android OS APIs but have added their own API to Android and opened the whole platform up to developers. We will see how things go but the local translation capability, camera AI and under the hood use of AI are all looking good. Huawei has promised to release updates for AI use through the NPU on existing phones.
Since its release in September, the Kirin 970 has already been adopted for two platforms (Mate 10 and Honor 10) with many more to follow. It won't take long to filter down the price range.
The animated emojis are obviously a copy of the iOS 11 options but Apple's original emojis were hardly 'original' back in the day. It would be ridiculous to think the idea would remain unique to iOS11. It really isn't a big deal. Just like it wasn't for Apple to finally embed a QR reader in the camera app.
It was also ridiculous for some to claim Apple was years ahead of the pack with regards to Face ID. Competitors have been using similar component technologies for a long while now but for slightly different purposes. The main difference isn't so much the hardware (Apple bought some companies and used their technology as a base for FaceID but it didn't buy them all) but the timing.
Competitors have no real need for FaceID functionality in the same timeframe as Apple but the fact that Honor was able to provide details on its own system (which on paper would seem to offer ten times the hardware precision of Apple's) just weeks after Apple announced theirs, shows that this is certainly nothing new for them. They have been working with this idea for a long while. They are just working at a different pace because there is no pressing need (beyond marketing at least) to introduce the technology today. Apple was in a completely different situation on timing. The fingerprint scanner is still present too. The Honor Magic used Face detection for screen unlocking using AI, a full year ago. This time round, it seems that they will use the idea to fully unlock (possibly using technology from Sensory) the Honor View 10 (but activating it via an OTA update).
What makes FaceID a nice solution is the software behind it and how the NPU can help in the 'learning' process. Hardware wise, Huawei has had everything it needs for full FaceID for a long time. The software angle for successful implementation is the only doubt but as long as their is another biometric option available on the phone, it just isn't as important as it is on the iPhone X for example.
As far as being a 'knock-off' is concerned, this has been continuously debunked and you have yet to back up your incessant claims with anything solid.
There have even been reports of Apple paying Huawei millions in exchange for use of its IP. If true, it would be somewhat ironic seeing as some people say that Huawei (and most Chinese tech companies) simply steal what they need (ignoring the fact that Huawei alone often invests more than Apple in R&D). IIRC, those reports put Huawei as licencing around 80 Apple patents and Apple licencing around 800 Huawei patents. It would be interesting to know how much truth there is in those numbers.
EDIT: "I can't see where the iOS experience is inferior for phone use." It should have read Android. Corrected in the body of the text.
Huawei and fellow Chinese phonemakers Oppo and Xiaomi are expected to adopt 3D sensors on upcoming 2018 models, following in the footsteps of the iPhone X's TrueDepth camera.
It looks rather similar to Apple's system, no surprise there. It can capture 300,000 points in under 10 seconds (iPhone X does 30,000 points, but in a shorter amount of time). Huawei also claims their system will unlock in 0.4 seconds.
If it works as well as they claim, and that's an "if", then it would seem they're able to catch up to the hardware in a pretty short amount of time. Huawei also has a Neural Processing Unit as part of their Kirin 970 that's considerably more powerful than Apple's Neural Engine in the A11 Bionic, so all that remains is the software.
Can you provide me with a reference that the Kirin 970 neural processing unit is considerably more powerful than Apples Neural Engine?
Kirin 970's NPU offers 1.92 trillion operations per second, Apple's Neural Engine offers 600 billion operations per second. For further comparison, both are well behind Google's PVC in the Pixel 2 / Pixel 2 XL which offers 3 trillion operations per second.
Completely useless self defined spec with no standardization, but go on buddy spit it out if it makes you feel better.
And as for insults, I insult just trolls who think parking here at Appleinsider will "teach us" and yeah you're not the first here to do that, Googlehead's been there spitting out useless stats and distorsions longer than you.
It's not useless. Through quantization you can use an 8-bit integer in a neural network prediction while maintaining useful accuracy. On that basis, it's very straight forward to compare.
Remember, honey, not vinegar.
Nah it’s just specs. Specs is specs. Specs aren’t the only thing that matter, especially when the total experience is worse off. The A11 specs are impressive because it’s best in class and the iOS experience is better than the knockoffs. The “neural” spec you’ve cited is rather meaningless because the knockoff experience is inferior to iOS.
Using both iOS and Android daily, I can tell you I would not voluntarily go back to iOS as a main use phone OS.
For various reasons I'm stuck on iOS 8 on the iPad Mini 2 and have iOS 11 on the Air 2 but don't have an Android tablet to compare to, so that comparison isn't an option for me.
I can't see where the iOS experience is inferior for phone use. Can you give some examples?
As for specs, what do you say about specs that simply don't exist on iPhones?
When you say 'best in class' you certainly weren't talking about the modem on the SoC, or dual simultaneous VoLTE or fast charging or the AI that enhances call quality, voice recognition or motion blur on the camera etc.
As for the NPU, there are no benchmark tools to compare them on real world tasks but I have seen some numbers (from HiSilicon no less) of the Kirin 970 NPU running head to head against the A11 NPU. The Kirin 970 was ahead of the A11 (quite far ahead in some results). I've not mentioned those numbers before because I think they are largely worthless. AI for the NPU largely depends on the training pumped into it. We are seeing the first infant steps in this regard and Huawei are strong out of the gate here. They are supporting both FaceBook and Google AI on the NPU through the Android OS APIs but have added their own API to Android and opened the whole platform up to developers. We will see how things go but the local translation capability, camera AI and under the hood use of AI are all looking good. Huawei has promised to release updates for AI use through the NPU on existing phones.
Since its release in September, the Kirin 970 has already been adopted for two platforms (Mate 10 and Honor 10) with many more to follow. It won't take long to filter down the price range.
The animated emojis are obviously a copy of the iOS 11 options but Apple's original emojis were hardly 'original' back in the day. It would be ridiculous to think the idea would remain unique to iOS11. It really isn't a big deal. Just like it wasn't for Apple to finally embed a QR reader in the camera app.
It was also ridiculous for some to claim Apple was years ahead of the pack with regards to Face ID. Competitors have been using similar component technologies for a long while now but for slightly different purposes. The main difference isn't so much the hardware (Apple bought some companies and used their technology as a base for FaceID but it didn't buy them all) but the timing.
Competitors have no real need for FaceID functionality in the same timeframe as Apple but the fact that Honor was able to provide details on its own system (which on paper would seem to offer ten times the hardware precision of Apple's) just weeks after Apple announced theirs, shows that this is certainly nothing new for them. They have been working with this idea for a long while. They are just working at a different pace because there is no pressing need (beyond marketing at least) to introduce the technology today. Apple was in a completely different situation on timing. The fingerprint scanner is still present too. The Honor Magic used Face detection for screen unlocking using AI, a full year ago. This time round, it seems that they will use the idea to fully unlock (possibly using technology from Sensory) the Honor View 10 (but activating it via an OTA update).
What makes FaceID a nice solution is the software behind it and how the NPU can help in the 'learning' process. Hardware wise, Huawei has had everything it needs for full FaceID for a long time. The software angle for successful implementation is the only doubt but as long as their is another biometric option available on the phone, it just isn't as important as it is on the iPhone X for example.
As far as being a 'knock-off' is concerned, this has been continuously debunked and you have yet to back up your incessant claims with anything solid.
There have even been reports of Apple paying Huawei millions in exchange for use of its IP. If true, it would be somewhat ironic seeing as some people say that Huawei (and most Chinese tech companies) simply steal what they need (ignoring the fact that Huawei alone often invests more than Apple in R&D). IIRC, those reports put Huawei as licencing around 80 Apple patents and Apple licencing around 800 Huawei patents. It would be interesting to know how much truth there is in those numbers.
Android is inferior to iOS in a variety of ways. Apart from less secure (fact), and having fewer phones that update for lesser periods of time (fact), you also struggle as a developer on Android. Dalvec is a horrible language and full-on Java isn't much better. As a former Java developer, I'd never go back to that slow, plodding mess ever again. Objective C and Swift are infinitely faster, more efficient, more elegant programming platforms.
Huawei is a photocopier. That isn't in question. What is in question is if their hardware and design is sufficiently well-executed to validate that philosophy. You may think so. Most people do not.
Huawei and fellow Chinese phonemakers Oppo and Xiaomi are expected to adopt 3D sensors on upcoming 2018 models, following in the footsteps of the iPhone X's TrueDepth camera.
It looks rather similar to Apple's system, no surprise there. It can capture 300,000 points in under 10 seconds (iPhone X does 30,000 points, but in a shorter amount of time). Huawei also claims their system will unlock in 0.4 seconds.
If it works as well as they claim, and that's an "if", then it would seem they're able to catch up to the hardware in a pretty short amount of time. Huawei also has a Neural Processing Unit as part of their Kirin 970 that's considerably more powerful than Apple's Neural Engine in the A11 Bionic, so all that remains is the software.
Can you provide me with a reference that the Kirin 970 neural processing unit is considerably more powerful than Apples Neural Engine?
Kirin 970's NPU offers 1.92 trillion operations per second, Apple's Neural Engine offers 600 billion operations per second. For further comparison, both are well behind Google's PVC in the Pixel 2 / Pixel 2 XL which offers 3 trillion operations per second.
Completely useless self defined spec with no standardization, but go on buddy spit it out if it makes you feel better.
And as for insults, I insult just trolls who think parking here at Appleinsider will "teach us" and yeah you're not the first here to do that, Googlehead's been there spitting out useless stats and distorsions longer than you.
It's not useless. Through quantization you can use an 8-bit integer in a neural network prediction while maintaining useful accuracy. On that basis, it's very straight forward to compare.
Remember, honey, not vinegar.
Nah it’s just specs. Specs is specs. Specs aren’t the only thing that matter, especially when the total experience is worse off. The A11 specs are impressive because it’s best in class and the iOS experience is better than the knockoffs. The “neural” spec you’ve cited is rather meaningless because the knockoff experience is inferior to iOS.
These specs have real world use. For example, Huawei leverages the NPU to allow for fast/accurate offline language translation and character recognition between 12 different languages. The language packs are also half the size of a traditional language pack.
However, it's hard to take you seriously when you're making ridiculous blanket statements or name calling the competition.
The iPhone X and 8 don't offload so much to the neural processor because the A11 can handle the calculations.
The difference in philosophy between Huawei and Apple is that Apple utilizes sub-processors primarily for security purposes and for power-mitigation reasoning. Android licensees for the most part use it because up until now the Kirins, Snapdragons and their ilk have had horrible IPC performance vis a vis Hurricane-variant chips and they need to keep those spare cycles working on pushing data.
Huawei and fellow Chinese phonemakers Oppo and Xiaomi are expected to adopt 3D sensors on upcoming 2018 models, following in the footsteps of the iPhone X's TrueDepth camera.
It looks rather similar to Apple's system, no surprise there. It can capture 300,000 points in under 10 seconds (iPhone X does 30,000 points, but in a shorter amount of time). Huawei also claims their system will unlock in 0.4 seconds.
If it works as well as they claim, and that's an "if", then it would seem they're able to catch up to the hardware in a pretty short amount of time. Huawei also has a Neural Processing Unit as part of their Kirin 970 that's considerably more powerful than Apple's Neural Engine in the A11 Bionic, so all that remains is the software.
Can you provide me with a reference that the Kirin 970 neural processing unit is considerably more powerful than Apples Neural Engine?
Kirin 970's NPU offers 1.92 trillion operations per second, Apple's Neural Engine offers 600 billion operations per second. For further comparison, both are well behind Google's PVC in the Pixel 2 / Pixel 2 XL which offers 3 trillion operations per second.
Completely useless self defined spec with no standardization, but go on buddy spit it out if it makes you feel better.
And as for insults, I insult just trolls who think parking here at Appleinsider will "teach us" and yeah you're not the first here to do that, Googlehead's been there spitting out useless stats and distorsions longer than you.
It's not useless. Through quantization you can use an 8-bit integer in a neural network prediction while maintaining useful accuracy. On that basis, it's very straight forward to compare.
Remember, honey, not vinegar.
Nah it’s just specs. Specs is specs. Specs aren’t the only thing that matter, especially when the total experience is worse off. The A11 specs are impressive because it’s best in class and the iOS experience is better than the knockoffs. The “neural” spec you’ve cited is rather meaningless because the knockoff experience is inferior to iOS.
These specs have real world use. For example, Huawei leverages the NPU to allow for fast/accurate offline language translation and character recognition between 12 different languages. The language packs are also half the size of a traditional language pack.
However, it's hard to take you seriously when you're making ridiculous blanket statements or name calling the competition.
The iPhone X and 8 don't offload so much to the neural processor because the A11 can handle the calculations.
The difference in philosophy between Huawei and Apple is that Apple utilizes sub-processors primarily for security purposes and for power-mitigation reasoning. Android licensees for the most part use it because up until now the Kirins, Snapdragons and their ilk have had horrible IPC performance vis a vis Hurricane-variant chips and they need to keep those spare cycles working on pushing data.
HiSilicon notes massive power saving and performance gains from using the NPU. I can't see the point of sending anything the NPU can do effectively to the regular cores. I'm supposing Apple is also seeing the same benefits with its NPU.
BTW, Rumours claim that HiSilicon is designing its own GPU and that it could debut relatively soon. If that is true, I doubt they would stop there.
Huawei and fellow Chinese phonemakers Oppo and Xiaomi are expected to adopt 3D sensors on upcoming 2018 models, following in the footsteps of the iPhone X's TrueDepth camera.
It looks rather similar to Apple's system, no surprise there. It can capture 300,000 points in under 10 seconds (iPhone X does 30,000 points, but in a shorter amount of time). Huawei also claims their system will unlock in 0.4 seconds.
If it works as well as they claim, and that's an "if", then it would seem they're able to catch up to the hardware in a pretty short amount of time. Huawei also has a Neural Processing Unit as part of their Kirin 970 that's considerably more powerful than Apple's Neural Engine in the A11 Bionic, so all that remains is the software.
Can you provide me with a reference that the Kirin 970 neural processing unit is considerably more powerful than Apples Neural Engine?
Kirin 970's NPU offers 1.92 trillion operations per second, Apple's Neural Engine offers 600 billion operations per second. For further comparison, both are well behind Google's PVC in the Pixel 2 / Pixel 2 XL which offers 3 trillion operations per second.
Completely useless self defined spec with no standardization, but go on buddy spit it out if it makes you feel better.
And as for insults, I insult just trolls who think parking here at Appleinsider will "teach us" and yeah you're not the first here to do that, Googlehead's been there spitting out useless stats and distorsions longer than you.
It's not useless. Through quantization you can use an 8-bit integer in a neural network prediction while maintaining useful accuracy. On that basis, it's very straight forward to compare.
Remember, honey, not vinegar.
Nah it’s just specs. Specs is specs. Specs aren’t the only thing that matter, especially when the total experience is worse off. The A11 specs are impressive because it’s best in class and the iOS experience is better than the knockoffs. The “neural” spec you’ve cited is rather meaningless because the knockoff experience is inferior to iOS.
Using both iOS and Android daily, I can tell you I would not voluntarily go back to iOS as a main use phone OS.
For various reasons I'm stuck on iOS 8 on the iPad Mini 2 and have iOS 11 on the Air 2 but don't have an Android tablet to compare to, so that comparison isn't an option for me.
I can't see where the iOS experience is inferior for phone use. Can you give some examples?
As for specs, what do you say about specs that simply don't exist on iPhones?
When you say 'best in class' you certainly weren't talking about the modem on the SoC, or dual simultaneous VoLTE or fast charging or the AI that enhances call quality, voice recognition or motion blur on the camera etc.
As for the NPU, there are no benchmark tools to compare them on real world tasks but I have seen some numbers (from HiSilicon no less) of the Kirin 970 NPU running head to head against the A11 NPU. The Kirin 970 was ahead of the A11 (quite far ahead in some results). I've not mentioned those numbers before because I think they are largely worthless. AI for the NPU largely depends on the training pumped into it. We are seeing the first infant steps in this regard and Huawei are strong out of the gate here. They are supporting both FaceBook and Google AI on the NPU through the Android OS APIs but have added their own API to Android and opened the whole platform up to developers. We will see how things go but the local translation capability, camera AI and under the hood use of AI are all looking good. Huawei has promised to release updates for AI use through the NPU on existing phones.
Since its release in September, the Kirin 970 has already been adopted for two platforms (Mate 10 and Honor 10) with many more to follow. It won't take long to filter down the price range.
The animated emojis are obviously a copy of the iOS 11 options but Apple's original emojis were hardly 'original' back in the day. It would be ridiculous to think the idea would remain unique to iOS11. It really isn't a big deal. Just like it wasn't for Apple to finally embed a QR reader in the camera app.
It was also ridiculous for some to claim Apple was years ahead of the pack with regards to Face ID. Competitors have been using similar component technologies for a long while now but for slightly different purposes. The main difference isn't so much the hardware (Apple bought some companies and used their technology as a base for FaceID but it didn't buy them all) but the timing.
Competitors have no real need for FaceID functionality in the same timeframe as Apple but the fact that Honor was able to provide details on its own system (which on paper would seem to offer ten times the hardware precision of Apple's) just weeks after Apple announced theirs, shows that this is certainly nothing new for them. They have been working with this idea for a long while. They are just working at a different pace because there is no pressing need (beyond marketing at least) to introduce the technology today. Apple was in a completely different situation on timing. The fingerprint scanner is still present too. The Honor Magic used Face detection for screen unlocking using AI, a full year ago. This time round, it seems that they will use the idea to fully unlock (possibly using technology from Sensory) the Honor View 10 (but activating it via an OTA update).
What makes FaceID a nice solution is the software behind it and how the NPU can help in the 'learning' process. Hardware wise, Huawei has had everything it needs for full FaceID for a long time. The software angle for successful implementation is the only doubt but as long as their is another biometric option available on the phone, it just isn't as important as it is on the iPhone X for example.
As far as being a 'knock-off' is concerned, this has been continuously debunked and you have yet to back up your incessant claims with anything solid.
There have even been reports of Apple paying Huawei millions in exchange for use of its IP. If true, it would be somewhat ironic seeing as some people say that Huawei (and most Chinese tech companies) simply steal what they need (ignoring the fact that Huawei alone often invests more than Apple in R&D). IIRC, those reports put Huawei as licencing around 80 Apple patents and Apple licencing around 800 Huawei patents. It would be interesting to know how much truth there is in those numbers.
Android is inferior to iOS in a variety of ways. Apart from less secure (fact), and having fewer phones that update for lesser periods of time (fact), you also struggle as a developer on Android. Dalvec is a horrible language and full-on Java isn't much better. As a former Java developer, I'd never go back to that slow, plodding mess ever again. Objective C and Swift are infinitely faster, more efficient, more elegant programming platforms.
Huawei is a photocopier. That isn't in question. What is in question is if their hardware and design is sufficiently well-executed to validate that philosophy. You may think so. Most people do not.
The question was on the 'experience' not the technicalities.
What has Huawei 'copied' to warrant the term "photocopier" and say it "isn't in question"?
Reviews, sales and users seem to support the idea that their hardware and design is sufficiently well executed. Take a look at any of the Mate 10, Honor 9 reviews for starters. Then work your way back. General consensus seems to be "better and better". Even the P10 was well received for what it offered and, in hindsight, some say Huawei took a breather with that phone.
This year Huawei even overtook Apple to become the world's second biggest handset maker, futher cementing their success and dethroning Apple in much of Europe. The first time Apple had been knocked out of that spot since 2010.
As for copying, well they had their own portrait mode well before Apple's went into beta. Their camera app is one of the best stock apps for manual photography out there. Refocusing, re-lighting after the fact etc were all available well from Huawei well before Apple introduced such features, just as dual cameras were. Low light? Again very good performance. In some cases an iPhone wouldn't even let you take a photo where a Huawei had no issues.
Battery technology? They have always been ahead here and the Mate 10 even has TüV Rheinland certification. The first phone to receive it.
Modem technology? Apple possibly wouldn't have a LTE option without a licence from Huawei.
Build quality? Excellent.
Design? Read the reviews. How often do you see the word 'stunning'? Far more often than you probably imagine.
If Apple has this year altered its long standing strategy and moved into the lower tiers, it is a result of fierce competition and a contraction in its ultra premium band and Samsung isn't the only manufacturer pushing Apple. Huawei has played a huge part and not by simply 'copying'.
That said, I agree with Apple's change in strategy. I hope it pays off.
Android is inferior to iOS in a variety of ways. Apart from less secure (fact), and having fewer phones that update for lesser periods of time (fact), you also struggle as a developer on Android. Dalvec is a horrible language and full-on Java isn't much better. As a former Java developer, I'd never go back to that slow, plodding mess ever again. Objective C and Swift are infinitely faster, more efficient, more elegant programming platforms.
Huawei is a photocopier. That isn't in question. What is in question is if their hardware and design is sufficiently well-executed to validate that philosophy. You may think so. Most people do not.
Android is inferior to iOS in a variety of ways. - The reverse is ALSO equally true in many ways.
Less secure - Can you provide any specific examples for millions of Android phones being affected by a malware in the last 5 years? I guess you meant privacy, not security.
Software Updates - it is just for marketing purposes, nothing more than that. What is the point in installing the latest OS in 4 year old device when it would make it useless? My own experience with iPad Air is terrible after upgrading to iOS 10, leave alone iOS 11 which I have not done so far. So in the real world, useful software updates happen only for first 2 years. After that, you only have a choice between "less secure working" device Vs "secure but not working" device. Individual choices would vary, but it just boils down to that. Neither model (iOS or Android) is useful to the end-users.
you struggle as a developer on Android - Another huge myth. Ask @Cropr in this forum who is managing App developers for both Android AND iOS - he clearly called out in this forum that both have different challenges and neither iOS nor Android is superior/inferior in any way when it comes to App development.
HiSilicon notes massive power saving and performance gains from using the NPU. I can't see the point of sending anything the NPU can do effectively to the regular cores. I'm supposing Apple is also seeing the same benefits with its NPU.
BTW, Rumours claim that HiSilicon is designing its own GPU and that it could debut relatively soon. If that is true, I doubt they would stop there.
Again, it doesn't matter that the Apple Neural Engine is only specifically designed to handle Face ID, since neither the Kirin, nor the Exynos, nor the Snapdragon can match even 80% of the A10's IPC on clock frequency. Forget about the A11, since none of those chips can match up even a lions share fraction of it.
Benchmark applications like Geekbench are excellent indicators of top-end horsepower. Real world tests like the infamously ridiculously amateurish YouTube video vs Android variants, mean nothing since all of those phones are running old, off-the shelf software and hardware that has already been optimized sideways. A better test would be a real-world test 10 months from now. But then, by then, the A11 would probably bury anything this gen by at least a full factor and probably trash next generation competitors by a healthy margin as well.
The point stands. Apple doesn't need the most powerful NE coprocessor ever, because their processor is already comparable to a low-end Core i5. When Android hits those levels and don't have to shunt all their FP comps to a coprocessor on push, then maybe you can crow about how utterly boss that vaporware is.
Technicalities most certainly produce an experience when the user is inundated in a slower operating system that must compensate by throwing massive amounts of memory, and clock frequency to remedy an inefficient programmatic foundation.
Technicalities most certainly produce an experience when the user is inundated in malware due to myopic design decisions concerning security. No phone, ever, should have to have an antivirus on it. A phone is an appliance and yet, here we are, with Android having over 30 flavors of antivirus. Many exploits can infect Android via drive-by downloads. Hilarious.
Technicalities most certainly produce an experience when Huawei phones receive half the operational support of a iOS phone, due to deficiencies with carrier cooperation.
As for the other laundry list of facts you smeared all over your post to obfuscate the facts.
The "size" of the market doesn't matter. Effective profitability does. Huawei makes cheap phones, as well as expensive phones. Their mean price is lower than Apples and they tend to include new technologies *after* Apple has tested the waters.
Huawei wouldn't even be *making* smartphones if not for Apple's opus in 2007. Siri and virtual assistance? Advanced, *effective* biometric systems? Before Apple, they were a pipe dream. High performance phones with robust graphics systems were spearheaded by Apple. The shape, feel and function of smartphones as a modern technological paradigm were created by Apple and it has been Apple that has lead the charge at every turn.
64 bit processors? No one needs that...until Android OEMS copied it lock stock and barrel. Finger print reader? Big deal. Advanced camera? Oops, now every phone is tripping over itself to try to compete with the iPhone's camera. Siri? Google themselves said Siri was a fad. Now everyone is iterating on some kind of virtual assistant.
Huawei makes nice knockoff iPhones and cheap car technologies. Stop trying to impress everyone here, on an Apple site, with a second-rate OS, created using a freemium programming platform, created by a commodity Asian hardware manufacturer.
Technicalities most certainly produce an experience when the user is inundated in a slower operating system that must compensate by throwing massive amounts of memory, and clock frequency to remedy an inefficient programmatic foundation.
Technicalities most certainly produce an experience when the user is inundated in malware due to myopic design decisions concerning security. No phone, ever, should have to have an antivirus on it. A phone is an appliance and yet, here we are, with Android having over 30 flavors of antivirus. Many exploits can infect Android via drive-by downloads. Hilarious.
Technicalities most certainly produce an experience when Huawei phones receive half the operational support of a iOS phone, due to deficiencies with carrier cooperation.
As for the other laundry list of facts you smeared all over your post to obfuscate the facts.
The "size" of the market doesn't matter. Effective profitability does. Huawei makes cheap phones, as well as expensive phones. Their mean price is lower than Apples and they tend to include new technologies *after* Apple has tested the waters.
Huawei wouldn't even be *making* smartphones if not for Apple's opus in 2007. Siri and virtual assistance? Advanced, *effective* biometric systems? Before Apple, they were a pipe dream. High performance phones with robust graphics systems were spearheaded by Apple. The shape, feel and function of smartphones as a modern technological paradigm were created by Apple and it has been Apple that has lead the charge at every turn.
64 bit processors? No one needs that...until Android OEMS copied it lock stock and barrel. Finger print reader? Big deal. Advanced camera? Oops, now every phone is tripping over itself to try to compete with the iPhone's camera. Siri? Google themselves said Siri was a fad. Now everyone is iterating on some kind of virtual assistant.
Huawei makes nice knockoff iPhones and cheap car technologies. Stop trying to impress everyone here, on an Apple site, with a second-rate OS, created using a freemium programming platform, created by a commodity Asian hardware manufacturer.
You're not impressing anyone. Seriously.
A lot of bluster but little else in there.
If something is written in Java or any other language it is of little interest to the end user when it comes to the experience. The user is impervious to any technical shortcomings as long as they don't make themselves evident. If throwing RAM and cycles at a problem resolves it without the user ever knowing, it is not an issue.
I stated very clearly that I use both systems and wouldn't voluntarily go back to iOS for main phone OS. Why not provide some real reasons to adopt iOS?
The ones you have offered so far don't really cut it in 2017.
"Inundated with a slower operating system"
When was the last time you used an Android phone? Android is plenty fast for everyone on a modern phone. Have you seen any recent reviews complaining about speed? Any user with a new phone bemoaning the lack of speed? And if what you want to do is focus on specs, then why not comment on what I said about that angle in the original post?
"Inundated in malware"? Inundated?
"Hilarious" ? My thoughts exactly. You cannot be serious. If what you are claiming were even remotely true, Android users would be clamouring to get over the walls of Apple's garden. They aren't.
"Obfuscate the facts". No. I gave some facts. Real facts. I didn't obfuscate anything.
"Size of the market doesn't matter"? It does. It's the only reason Apple is still selling older phones after the September 2017 refresh. Believe me. The ONLY reason. It needs to get a foothold in developing markets. Supercycle aside, Apple's sales have been flat for the last few years. Huawei has dethroned Apple in large swathes of Europe. It is rumoured to be planning a move into the US at the start of 2018 via a major carrier (AT&T?) and is pushing hard into Latin America without loosening its hold in Asia. Competition is good.
"Huawei wouldn't be making phones" if it weren't for Apple? Erm, phones existed long before the iPhone. I wonder just how far the 'opus' would have got without Huawei licencing IP to Apple, though.
"Apple has led the charge at every turn? So why is it playing catch-up at so many turns?
64 bit processors? They were on everybody's roadmap. Everybody's. Of course they were needed. That's why they were on the roadmaps. Or did you think Android would stay 32 bit forever? You are lacking perspective.
"Fingerprint sensor. Big deal". Actually, it was. A far bigger deal than even FaceID because it was the first universal consumer biometric unlocking on mobile. FaceID, in the same context, is just another biometric option. And an expensive one at that. Another reason Android has no pressing need (other than marketing - not unlike the case of 64bit) to introduce it as quickly as Apple. Fingerprint scanners still do a great job and that's why they are still on two of Apple's NEW phones today.
Camera? When was the last time you saw anyone frustrated by the quality of their photos from a new phone? The fact that cameras have got better takes nothing away from the reality that they were good to begin with. They have been for at least three years now.
Take your hands away from your eyes. Huawei had dual cameras before Apple. In the year that Apple had just one (expensive) dual camera phone, Huawei had an entire range at different price points. Excellent camera setups. Some co-engineered with Leica, others without the Leica branding to keep prices in check. Huawei had its own portrait mode long before Apple's went into beta for a year. The ability to change the focus point after the fact too. The same for re-lighting. Does Apple allow you manual control over the camera? Have you seen the motion blur reduction on the Kirin 970 equipped phones? At the presentation they even used photos from Apple's latest phones for comparison. Knock offs, they aren't.
Normally there is more than one way to achieve a goal. Huawei often goes a completely different route to Apple. Your knock-off claim just doesn't hold water because it is literally full of holes. And you completely side-stepped all of my other points.
Btw, the Face Detect demo on the V10 failed during the presentation. Not really a big deal as the feature is not 'live' yet and will be activated OTA but whatever they are using is clearly different to the Honor Magic which was instant screen unlocking. Of course, the fingerprint sensor remains so the user can still decide which to use.
Comments
However, it's hard to take you seriously when you're making ridiculous blanket statements or name calling the competition.
You've cited specs and suggested it will enable better translation services. Is that actual, today? Sounds neat, but if it's still on a crummier Android knockoff with a poorer overall user experience than iOS, I fail to see the value when compared to the A11 and the superior experience on an iOS device.
Nope, it's not irrational. I didn't come out of the womb knowing iOS was better. It's a conclusion based on observation. The overall user experience matters, and that's largely based on the software platform -- and this is where iOS excels over the various knockoffs and their various Android versions.
Apple observer John Gruber is incredibly rational and discusses this at greater length under the A11 Bionic Chip section header:
https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/iphone_x_event_thoughts_and_observations
http://iphone.appleinsider.com/articles/15/11/12/samsung-again-claims-leadership-by-following-with-exynos-8-its-new-apple-a9-rival
For various reasons I'm stuck on iOS 8 on the iPad Mini 2 and have iOS 11 on the Air 2 but don't have an Android tablet to compare to, so that comparison isn't an option for me.
I can't see where the Android experience is inferior for phone use. Can you give some examples?
As for specs, what do you say about specs that simply don't exist on iPhones?
When you say 'best in class' you certainly weren't talking about the modem on the SoC, or dual simultaneous VoLTE or fast charging or the AI that enhances call quality, voice recognition or motion blur on the camera etc.
As for the NPU, there are no benchmark tools to compare them on real world tasks but I have seen some numbers (from HiSilicon no less) of the Kirin 970 NPU running head to head against the A11 NPU. The Kirin 970 was ahead of the A11 (quite far ahead in some results). I've not mentioned those numbers before because I think they are largely worthless. AI for the NPU largely depends on the training pumped into it. We are seeing the first infant steps in this regard and Huawei are strong out of the gate here. They are supporting both FaceBook and Google AI on the NPU through the Android OS APIs but have added their own API to Android and opened the whole platform up to developers. We will see how things go but the local translation capability, camera AI and under the hood use of AI are all looking good. Huawei has promised to release updates for AI use through the NPU on existing phones.
Since its release in September, the Kirin 970 has already been adopted for two platforms (Mate 10 and Honor 10) with many more to follow. It won't take long to filter down the price range.
The animated emojis are obviously a copy of the iOS 11 options but Apple's original emojis were hardly 'original' back in the day. It would be ridiculous to think the idea would remain unique to iOS11. It really isn't a big deal. Just like it wasn't for Apple to finally embed a QR reader in the camera app.
It was also ridiculous for some to claim Apple was years ahead of the pack with regards to Face ID. Competitors have been using similar component technologies for a long while now but for slightly different purposes. The main difference isn't so much the hardware (Apple bought some companies and used their technology as a base for FaceID but it didn't buy them all) but the timing.
Competitors have no real need for FaceID functionality in the same timeframe as Apple but the fact that Honor was able to provide details on its own system (which on paper would seem to offer ten times the hardware precision of Apple's) just weeks after Apple announced theirs, shows that this is certainly nothing new for them. They have been working with this idea for a long while. They are just working at a different pace because there is no pressing need (beyond marketing at least) to introduce the technology today. Apple was in a completely different situation on timing. The fingerprint scanner is still present too. The Honor Magic used Face detection for screen unlocking using AI, a full year ago. This time round, it seems that they will use the idea to fully unlock (possibly using technology from Sensory) the Honor View 10 (but activating it via an OTA update).
What makes FaceID a nice solution is the software behind it and how the NPU can help in the 'learning' process. Hardware wise, Huawei has had everything it needs for full FaceID for a long time. The software angle for successful implementation is the only doubt but as long as their is another biometric option available on the phone, it just isn't as important as it is on the iPhone X for example.
As far as being a 'knock-off' is concerned, this has been continuously debunked and you have yet to back up your incessant claims with anything solid.
There have even been reports of Apple paying Huawei millions in exchange for use of its IP. If true, it would be somewhat ironic seeing as some people say that Huawei (and most Chinese tech companies) simply steal what they need (ignoring the fact that Huawei alone often invests more than Apple in R&D). IIRC, those reports put Huawei as licencing around 80 Apple patents and Apple licencing around 800 Huawei patents. It would be interesting to know how much truth there is in those numbers.
EDIT: "I can't see where the iOS experience is inferior for phone use." It should have read Android. Corrected in the body of the text.
Android is inferior to iOS in a variety of ways. Apart from less secure (fact), and having fewer phones that update for lesser periods of time (fact), you also struggle as a developer on Android. Dalvec is a horrible language and full-on Java isn't much better. As a former Java developer, I'd never go back to that slow, plodding mess ever again. Objective C and Swift are infinitely faster, more efficient, more elegant programming platforms.
Huawei is a photocopier. That isn't in question. What is in question is if their hardware and design is sufficiently well-executed to validate that philosophy. You may think so. Most people do not.
The difference in philosophy between Huawei and Apple is that Apple utilizes sub-processors primarily for security purposes and for power-mitigation reasoning. Android licensees for the most part use it because up until now the Kirins, Snapdragons and their ilk have had horrible IPC performance vis a vis Hurricane-variant chips and they need to keep those spare cycles working on pushing data.
BTW, Rumours claim that HiSilicon is designing its own GPU and that it could debut relatively soon. If that is true, I doubt they would stop there.
What has Huawei 'copied' to warrant the term "photocopier" and say it "isn't in question"?
Reviews, sales and users seem to support the idea that their hardware and design is sufficiently well executed. Take a look at any of the Mate 10, Honor 9 reviews for starters. Then work your way back. General consensus seems to be "better and better". Even the P10 was well received for what it offered and, in hindsight, some say Huawei took a breather with that phone.
This year Huawei even overtook Apple to become the world's second biggest handset maker, futher cementing their success and dethroning Apple in much of Europe. The first time Apple had been knocked out of that spot since 2010.
As for copying, well they had their own portrait mode well before Apple's went into beta. Their camera app is one of the best stock apps for manual photography out there. Refocusing, re-lighting after the fact etc were all available well from Huawei well before Apple introduced such features, just as dual cameras were. Low light? Again very good performance. In some cases an iPhone wouldn't even let you take a photo where a Huawei had no issues.
Battery technology? They have always been ahead here and the Mate 10 even has TüV Rheinland certification. The first phone to receive it.
Modem technology? Apple possibly wouldn't have a LTE option without a licence from Huawei.
Build quality? Excellent.
Design? Read the reviews. How often do you see the word 'stunning'? Far more often than you probably imagine.
If Apple has this year altered its long standing strategy and moved into the lower tiers, it is a result of fierce competition and a contraction in its ultra premium band and Samsung isn't the only manufacturer pushing Apple. Huawei has played a huge part and not by simply 'copying'.
That said, I agree with Apple's change in strategy. I hope it pays off.
Android is inferior to iOS in a variety of ways. - The reverse is ALSO equally true in many ways.
Less secure - Can you provide any specific examples for millions of Android phones being affected by a malware in the last 5 years? I guess you meant privacy, not security.
Software Updates - it is just for marketing purposes, nothing more than that. What is the point in installing the latest OS in 4 year old device when it would make it useless? My own experience with iPad Air is terrible after upgrading to iOS 10, leave alone iOS 11 which I have not done so far. So in the real world, useful software updates happen only for first 2 years. After that, you only have a choice between "less secure working" device Vs "secure but not working" device. Individual choices would vary, but it just boils down to that. Neither model (iOS or Android) is useful to the end-users.
you struggle as a developer on Android - Another huge myth. Ask @Cropr in this forum who is managing App developers for both Android AND iOS - he clearly called out in this forum that both have different challenges and neither iOS nor Android is superior/inferior in any way when it comes to App development.
Again, it doesn't matter that the Apple Neural Engine is only specifically designed to handle Face ID, since neither the Kirin, nor the Exynos, nor the Snapdragon can match even 80% of the A10's IPC on clock frequency. Forget about the A11, since none of those chips can match up even a lions share fraction of it.
Benchmark applications like Geekbench are excellent indicators of top-end horsepower. Real world tests like the infamously ridiculously amateurish YouTube video vs Android variants, mean nothing since all of those phones are running old, off-the shelf software and hardware that has already been optimized sideways. A better test would be a real-world test 10 months from now. But then, by then, the A11 would probably bury anything this gen by at least a full factor and probably trash next generation competitors by a healthy margin as well.
The point stands. Apple doesn't need the most powerful NE coprocessor ever, because their processor is already comparable to a low-end Core i5. When Android hits those levels and don't have to shunt all their FP comps to a coprocessor on push, then maybe you can crow about how utterly boss that vaporware is.
Technicalities most certainly produce an experience when the user is inundated in malware due to myopic design decisions concerning security. No phone, ever, should have to have an antivirus on it. A phone is an appliance and yet, here we are, with Android having over 30 flavors of antivirus. Many exploits can infect Android via drive-by downloads. Hilarious.
Technicalities most certainly produce an experience when Huawei phones receive half the operational support of a iOS phone, due to deficiencies with carrier cooperation.
As for the other laundry list of facts you smeared all over your post to obfuscate the facts.
The "size" of the market doesn't matter. Effective profitability does. Huawei makes cheap phones, as well as expensive phones. Their mean price is lower than Apples and they tend to include new technologies *after* Apple has tested the waters.
Huawei wouldn't even be *making* smartphones if not for Apple's opus in 2007. Siri and virtual assistance? Advanced, *effective* biometric systems? Before Apple, they were a pipe dream. High performance phones with robust graphics systems were spearheaded by Apple. The shape, feel and function of smartphones as a modern technological paradigm were created by Apple and it has been Apple that has lead the charge at every turn.
64 bit processors? No one needs that...until Android OEMS copied it lock stock and barrel.
Finger print reader? Big deal.
Advanced camera? Oops, now every phone is tripping over itself to try to compete with the iPhone's camera.
Siri? Google themselves said Siri was a fad. Now everyone is iterating on some kind of virtual assistant.
Huawei makes nice knockoff iPhones and cheap car technologies. Stop trying to impress everyone here, on an Apple site, with a second-rate OS, created using a freemium programming platform, created by a commodity Asian hardware manufacturer.
You're not impressing anyone. Seriously.
If something is written in Java or any other language it is of little interest to the end user when it comes to the experience. The user is impervious to any technical shortcomings as long as they don't make themselves evident. If throwing RAM and cycles at a problem resolves it without the user ever knowing, it is not an issue.
I stated very clearly that I use both systems and wouldn't voluntarily go back to iOS for main phone OS. Why not provide some real reasons to adopt iOS?
The ones you have offered so far don't really cut it in 2017.
"Inundated with a slower operating system"
When was the last time you used an Android phone? Android is plenty fast for everyone on a modern phone. Have you seen any recent reviews complaining about speed? Any user with a new phone bemoaning the lack of speed? And if what you want to do is focus on specs, then why not comment on what I said about that angle in the original post?
"Inundated in malware"? Inundated?
"Hilarious" ? My thoughts exactly. You cannot be serious. If what you are claiming were even remotely true, Android users would be clamouring to get over the walls of Apple's garden. They aren't.
"Obfuscate the facts". No. I gave some facts. Real facts. I didn't obfuscate anything.
"Size of the market doesn't matter"? It does. It's the only reason Apple is still selling older phones after the September 2017 refresh. Believe me. The ONLY reason. It needs to get a foothold in developing markets. Supercycle aside, Apple's sales have been flat for the last few years. Huawei has dethroned Apple in large swathes of Europe. It is rumoured to be planning a move into the US at the start of 2018 via a major carrier (AT&T?) and is pushing hard into Latin America without loosening its hold in Asia. Competition is good.
"Huawei wouldn't be making phones" if it weren't for Apple? Erm, phones existed long before the iPhone. I wonder just how far the 'opus' would have got without Huawei licencing IP to Apple, though.
"Apple has led the charge at every turn? So why is it playing catch-up at so many turns?
64 bit processors? They were on everybody's roadmap. Everybody's. Of course they were needed. That's why they were on the roadmaps. Or did you think Android would stay 32 bit forever? You are lacking perspective.
"Fingerprint sensor. Big deal". Actually, it was. A far bigger deal than even FaceID because it was the first universal consumer biometric unlocking on mobile. FaceID, in the same context, is just another biometric option. And an expensive one at that. Another reason Android has no pressing need (other than marketing - not unlike the case of 64bit) to introduce it as quickly as Apple. Fingerprint scanners still do a great job and that's why they are still on two of Apple's NEW phones today.
Camera? When was the last time you saw anyone frustrated by the quality of their photos from a new phone? The fact that cameras have got better takes nothing away from the reality that they were good to begin with. They have been for at least three years now.
Take your hands away from your eyes. Huawei had dual cameras before Apple. In the year that Apple had just one (expensive) dual camera phone, Huawei had an entire range at different price points. Excellent camera setups. Some co-engineered with Leica, others without the Leica branding to keep prices in check. Huawei had its own portrait mode long before Apple's went into beta for a year. The ability to change the focus point after the fact too. The same for re-lighting. Does Apple allow you manual control over the camera? Have you seen the motion blur reduction on the Kirin 970 equipped phones? At the presentation they even used photos from Apple's latest phones for comparison. Knock offs, they aren't.
Normally there is more than one way to achieve a goal. Huawei often goes a completely different route to Apple. Your knock-off claim just doesn't hold water because it is literally full of holes. And you completely side-stepped all of my other points.
Btw, the Face Detect demo on the V10 failed during the presentation. Not really a big deal as the feature is not 'live' yet and will be activated OTA but whatever they are using is clearly different to the Honor Magic which was instant screen unlocking. Of course, the fingerprint sensor remains so the user can still decide which to use.