Apple not requiring failed iPhone battery diagnostic test before $29 replacement

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 53
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 3,981member

    78Bandit said:
    macxpress said:
    I see people are already thinking that maybe come November/December they'll schedule a swap of their iPhone X battery. I wonder how many will actually do this?
    I'm also hoping Apple speced a better battery in the iPhone 8 and X as well as worked on their chipset power draw requirements in designing the A11 Bionic.  No way Apple engineers think it is acceptable to throttle a phone that is just over a year old; that was a stopgap measure to cover for a design flaw in the 6, 6S, and 7.
    Youre misunderstanding, they aren't throttling peak power draws on the 7 now, they're just added it to the list of models that can potentially throttle peak power draw when the battery eventually becomes used up. Unless you're performing like double or triple full charging cycles a day on your 7, you can't be there yet.
    Did Apple say why they added iPhone 7 with 11.2? If this can’t possibly happen with the 7 yet why add the code now and not with iOS 12?
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 22 of 53
    AI_liasAI_lias Posts: 293member
    I think people misunderstand this $29 battery replacement: if you want to change your battery in your phone, that is iPhone 6 or newer, for whatever reason, doesn't matter, you can change it for $29 instead of $79. I don't think anyone will ask you any questions, they will just replace whatever battery you have in there with one from Apple. It is not based on whether your phone or battery is bad or not. They will simply sell you and install a new battery for that price. This means you can take your iPhone X, pay $29 and get a new battery.
    edited January 2018
  • Reply 23 of 53
    bb-15bb-15 Posts: 257member
    glynh said:
    macxpress said:

    OMG this is not a friggin' design flaw. Will you people STOP spreading this misinformation! Learn about batteries before you post stupid shit like this. Please!
    Not a design flaw?

    Here is an excerpt from a log I kept on my iPhone 6S regarding battery shutdowns just over a year ago;


    Dec 2nd @8am

    Went from 51%->shut off

    Plug in charger, screen displayed empty battery, Apple Symbol and password screen. Entered password and battery now shows 50%

    Start of iOS 10.2 upgrade 27% and plugged in

    End of iOS 10.2 upgrade 6% and still plugged in!

    Battery meter now on 12% in time taken to write this!

    Dropped to 5% in 5 minutes while in pocket not being used!

    Wed 14th

    Low battery warning - 5 mins later down to 14% with no activity

    Fri 22nd

    Battery showing 38% when screen went black and phone switched off. Plugged in, phone rebooted and was showing 37% straight away

    Friday 29th

    Battery showing 36% when screen went blank and phone switched off. Plugged in but after 5-10 minutes the screen was still black. Plugged & replugged the cable and phone rebooted and was showing 62% straight away

    Tue 3rd

    Battery showing 10% when screen went blank and phone switched off. Plugged in but after 1hr screen was still black and phone hadn't turned on despite pressing home & side buttons. Unplugged Lightning cable and plugged back in. Phone rebooted and now showing 64%

    Sun 22nd

    Battery showing 35% when screen went blank and phone switched off. Plugged in, phone rebooted and was showing 34% straight away

    After being on charge for 30 mins still showing 34%

    Thurs 2nd Feb

    Took phone off charge this morning at 99% after being on charge all night. Within minutes it was down to 93%. Rebooted phone and noticed it dropping down from 85, 84, 83, 82 in just seconds!

    etc. etc.

    Then at some point this year after suffering for months I haven't had a single shutdown.

    Rubbish battery life yes (can be flat by lunchtime) but no shutdown which would indicate to me there has been a software change as batteries don't suddenly get better overnight! Not that lasting only half a day can by any stretch of the imagination be  considered getting better but at least it doesn’t shut down suddenly any more.

    This iPhone 6S was on the original serial number list for the FOC battery replacement long before this latest battery fiasco came about. I finally took it to the Apple Store this morning and long story short when I went back to collect it they had refused to replace the battery because the liquid ID tags inside the phone were red which indicated moisture/liquid ingress so they wriggled out of their responsibility there.

    I would gladly have paid the £25 to get the battery replaced while it was open on the bench despite the promised FOC warranty replacement but that wasn't even an option apparently.

    And to add insult to injury when they emailed me the zero cost receipt it stated Customer Declined Repair!

    What you are describing looks like a problem that was reported in December 2016 and addressed by Apple about shutdown issues which can happen on an iPhone 6S.

    https://www.apple.com/support/iphone6s-unexpectedshutdown/

    https://www.consumerreports.org/smartphones/how-to-check-iphone-6s-for-battery-shutdown-problem/

    That reported 6S shutdown problem is separate from the iPhone 6 slowdown issue from iOS 10.2.1 or later. (I know because I own an iPhone 6 with 10.3.3 and your problems are not the same as what I've experienced on my iPhone 6). 

    Second; you have reported that the tags in your phone were red (indicating liquid in the phone). Unfortunately for you, water/liquid damage can void a warranty. I understand your anger/frustration in not getting your phone fixed by Apple but this water/liquid damage issue has been a long standing Apple policy and is separate from phones slowing down due to depleted batteries or iOS upgrades.  

  • Reply 24 of 53
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 3,981member
    At the end of the day isn’t the issue that Apple needs higher capacity batteries in their iPhones? 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 25 of 53
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    At the end of the day isn’t the issue that Apple needs higher capacity batteries in their iPhones? 
    Yeah, and people need to accept phones 50% heavier and 2mm thicker, tell those people that's the choice they'll have to make. Yup's that's an easy one.

    No, the choice is likely people will realize that they actually need to get their battery replaced if they want a very small phone that they use like crazy (500 full charges in one year are now very frequent which wasn't the case 5 years ago).

    That's the choice that takes user preference into account AND actual technical limitations.
  • Reply 26 of 53
    dewmedewme Posts: 2,061member
    As an owner of a three plus year old iPhone 6 Plus that’s still performing very well and not suffering any battery issues I think Apple’s $29 battery replacement offer is very generous and will add a couple more years of use to a product that’s served me very well indeed. I had no problem with how Apple dealt with a crash inducing condition in the first place. They should have informed users about the condition but they’ve apologized for the oversight and have more than made it up to the vast majority of affected users, most of whom were oblivious to the condition in the first place.

    Problem solved and time to move on. If you want to embrace your rancid bitterness towards Apple you have much larger problems than anything that can be addressed here. 
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 27 of 53
    78Bandit78Bandit Posts: 232member
    At the end of the day isn’t the issue that Apple needs higher capacity batteries in their iPhones? 
    Either that or lower peak power draw, which is essentially what Apple has done with the throttling fix in their software.

    The phones are incapable of running at full stated performance for very long.  Apple claimed the A8 had 25% higher processing power and 50% higher GPU power while only needing half the battery power of the A7.  Apparently the power draw is quite a bit higher than expected to the point that the batteries can't supply the required power after only a year or so.  Apple's engineers didn't anticipate that happening or figure it out until they got the diagnostic data from iOS 10.2 after unexpected shutdowns became more and more frequent.

    Some would suggest that Apple needs to (and in fact is obligated to) push their processors to the absolute limit when new even if it means throttling performance by half as the batteries age normally.  I am not one of those people.  I generally expect lower run time, not reduced performance, as batteries age.  Either will work from a design standpoint, but consumers will ultimately vote with their wallets as to which they want provided the choice is communicated transparently.

    In this case Apple rolled the dice and lost.  Their engineers apparently initially thought the power supply from the batteries was sufficient to power the A8 (and A9 & A10 as well) without throttling.  They were wrong.  It remains to be seen if they figured out the problem and fixed it with the A11 in the iPhone 8 & X.  We'll know more in a year if benchmarks for those devices start showing performance declines too.  I'm hoping they don't.
    rogifan_newmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 28 of 53
    At the end of the day isn’t the issue that Apple needs higher capacity batteries in their iPhones? 
    IMO, the 6/6s processors were probably just the end of the line for the A series SoC not including the additional power efficient cores like in the Fusion and Bionic. That was as far as that particular design could go, and perhaps it wasn't possible for Apple to implement a design like Fusion/Bionic earlier than that (for whatever reason). As a result, the 6/6s may be more susceptible to power draw issues than either earlier iPhone designs or the Fusion/Bionic and later. How much more susceptible may not really be anything that significant, but enough to increase the number of complaints to a level where Apple decided to add the feature to limit shutdowns. Just a guess...
    edited January 2018 rogifan_new
  • Reply 29 of 53
    dws-2dws-2 Posts: 238member
    At the end of the day isn’t the issue that Apple needs higher capacity batteries in their iPhones? 
    We don't know the issue. I'd really like to read some reporting that answers these questions:
    1. Is there something about the processors in iPhone 6 and higher phones that draw more peak power, so are more subject to shutdowns than iPhone models before the 6? (In other words, does an old iPhone 5s not shut down during high power draws while the iPhone 6 does? Sometimes a processor innovation may have unintended consequences.)
    2. What exactly would cause the phone to shut down if it wasn't throttled? Is the processor not getting enough amps or volts? Could batteries be manufactured that would provide enough headroom to remove this issue? (For example, being capable of supplying the necessary amount even as the battery ages.)
    3. How is this slowdown tied to battery capacity? For example, will a battery with 90 percent of its capacity (not current charge, but capacity) always work at full speed, and a battery with 70 percent always be at a slow speed. How does current charge affect the processor speed? 
    4. Does this issue happen to Android phones? If so, how is it handled? So far we just have assertions without any research.

    I feel like we don't really understand why this is happening yet.
    rogifan_new
  • Reply 30 of 53
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 3,981member
    foggyhill said:
    At the end of the day isn’t the issue that Apple needs higher capacity batteries in their iPhones? 
    Yeah, and people need to accept phones 50% heavier and 2mm thicker, tell those people that's the choice they'll have to make. Yup's that's an easy one.

    No, the choice is likely people will realize that they actually need to get their battery replaced if they want a very small phone that they use like crazy (500 full charges in one year are now very frequent which wasn't the case 5 years ago).

    That's the choice that takes user preference into account AND actual technical limitations.
    My iPhone 10 is a bit heavier than my 7 was. I hardly notice it. Do Galaxy and Pixel owners complain that their phones are too heavy?
  • Reply 31 of 53
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 3,981member

    78Bandit said:
    At the end of the day isn’t the issue that Apple needs higher capacity batteries in their iPhones? 
    Either that or lower peak power draw, which is essentially what Apple has done with the throttling fix in their software.

    The phones are incapable of running at full stated performance for very long.  Apple claimed the A8 had 25% higher processing power and 50% higher GPU power while only needing half the battery power of the A7.  Apparently the power draw is quite a bit higher than expected to the point that the batteries can't supply the required power after only a year or so.  Apple's engineers didn't anticipate that happening or figure it out until they got the diagnostic data from iOS 10.2 after unexpected shutdowns became more and more frequent.

    Some would suggest that Apple needs to (and in fact is obligated to) push their processors to the absolute limit when new even if it means throttling performance by half as the batteries age normally.  I am not one of those people.  I generally expect lower run time, not reduced performance, as batteries age.  Either will work from a design standpoint, but consumers will ultimately vote with their wallets as to which they want provided the choice is communicated transparently.

    In this case Apple rolled the dice and lost.  Their engineers apparently initially thought the power supply from the batteries was sufficient to power the A8 (and A9 & A10 as well) without throttling.  They were wrong.  It remains to be seen if they figured out the problem and fixed it with the A11 in the iPhone 8 & X.  We'll know more in a year if benchmarks for those devices start showing performance declines too.  I'm hoping they don't.
    For me, unless the phone turns into a ridiculously heavy brick I’d say put in bigger batteries. Galaxy S8 has a 3000 mAh battery. Pixel 2 is 2700 mAh. iPhone 8 is1821 mAh and iPhone X is 2716 mAh. Is the Taptic Engine preventing bigger batteries? Or could Apple do something similar to what they did with the MacBook?
  • Reply 32 of 53
    dws-2 said:
    At the end of the day isn’t the issue that Apple needs higher capacity batteries in their iPhones? 
    We don't know the issue. I'd really like to read some reporting that answers these questions:
    1. Is there something about the processors in iPhone 6 and higher phones that draw more peak power, so are more subject to shutdowns than iPhone models before the 6? (In other words, does an old iPhone 5s not shut down during high power draws while the iPhone 6 does? Sometimes a processor innovation may have unintended consequences.)
    2. What exactly would cause the phone to shut down if it wasn't throttled? Is the processor not getting enough amps or volts? Could batteries be manufactured that would provide enough headroom to remove this issue? (For example, being capable of supplying the necessary amount even as the battery ages.)
    3. How is this slowdown tied to battery capacity? For example, will a battery with 90 percent of its capacity (not current charge, but capacity) always work at full speed, and a battery with 70 percent always be at a slow speed. How does current charge affect the processor speed? 
    4. Does this issue happen to Android phones? If so, how is it handled? So far we just have assertions without any research.

    I feel like we don't really understand why this is happening yet.
    1. Possibly. 6/6s were the last two SoCs that didn't include the extra power efficient cores like the 7, 8, or X. Maybe pushing the envelope?  
    2. That's basically it. CPU requires more current than what the battery can provide per Apple.
    3. I believe 80% capacity is a standard for a lithium ion battery needing replacement. Reason being that it won't be as stable for providing power after that.
    4. Very likely. Apple said that it can be caused by an old battery (see 3), low charge on a healthy battery, or cold. That's going to happen with Android too. 
  • Reply 33 of 53
    There you Go winners, get it replace while you can before Dec 2018. Better yet get a Note 8....ops they too have battery problems, sorry about that.
    better yet get a Nokia or Blackberry....

  • Reply 34 of 53
    78Bandit78Bandit Posts: 232member
    foggyhill said:
    At the end of the day isn’t the issue that Apple needs higher capacity batteries in their iPhones? 
    Yeah, and people need to accept phones 50% heavier and 2mm thicker, tell those people that's the choice they'll have to make. Yup's that's an easy one.

    No, the choice is likely people will realize that they actually need to get their battery replaced if they want a very small phone that they use like crazy (500 full charges in one year are now very frequent which wasn't the case 5 years ago).

    That's the choice that takes user preference into account AND actual technical limitations.
    Do you really believe the battery literally needs to be doubled in size to overcome the voltage clipping issue?  Just as likely is the choice the phone would be 0.7 mm thicker (same as the iPhone 5s) and weigh 15 grams more.  That choice isn't quite so obvious.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 35 of 53
    Got my iPhone 6s battery swapped over yesterday for free! They did the test and it came up borderline at 80.51%. It would have cost $35.45 AUD but because it was less than two years since I purchased it under consumer law in Australia they replaced it at no charge. Very pleased. 

    Note: I didn’t get a lot of slow down ( CPU throttling) issues. But I was needing to charge multiple times a day
  • Reply 36 of 53
    mac_128mac_128 Posts: 3,428member
    So, does this "throttling" patch not apply to the 5s?
  • Reply 37 of 53
    kevin keekevin kee Posts: 1,034member
    foggyhill said:
    At the end of the day isn’t the issue that Apple needs higher capacity batteries in their iPhones? 
    Yeah, and people need to accept phones 50% heavier and 2mm thicker, tell those people that's the choice they'll have to make. Yup's that's an easy one.

    No, the choice is likely people will realize that they actually need to get their battery replaced if they want a very small phone that they use like crazy (500 full charges in one year are now very frequent which wasn't the case 5 years ago).

    That's the choice that takes user preference into account AND actual technical limitations.
    My iPhone 10 is a bit heavier than my 7 was. I hardly notice it. Do Galaxy and Pixel owners complain that their phones are too heavy?
    No, but they do praise iPhone for being lighter.
  • Reply 38 of 53
    mac_128 said:
    So, does this "throttling" patch not apply to the 5s?
    No.
  • Reply 39 of 53
    larryalarrya Posts: 547member
    lkrupp said:
    78Bandit said:
    macxpress said:
    I see people are already thinking that maybe come November/December they'll schedule a swap of their iPhone X battery. I wonder how many will actually do this?
    Apple's current diagnostic testing for battery capacity won't identify all instances where a battery can't supply the proper voltage under load.  In those circumstances phones will test good but will still be throttled up to 50%.  I would look for the informal policy of replacing batteries at the customers request for $29 to go away once Apple releases its new Battery Health app and the user and the Genius Bar employees can see if the phone is throttled because of voltage insufficiency.

    I'm also hoping Apple speced a better battery in the iPhone 8 and X as well as worked on their chipset power draw requirements in designing the A11 Bionic.  No way Apple engineers think it is acceptable to throttle a phone that is just over a year old; that was a stopgap measure to cover for a design flaw in the 6, 6S, and 7.
    Bla, bla, bla,bla. This is mass hysteria and Apple is letting those hysterical users replace their batteries if they want to. And as sure as death and taxes we’ll next start to see reports and articles claiming the battery swap didn’t speed up the phones and Apple is still throttling their devices to force upgrades. On Apple’s own discussion boards people are now claiming ALL their Apple devices are being slowed down, including the Mac Mini, the iMac, the Watch, everything. It’s a huge dirty snowball that gets bigger with each hysterical claim. And with each future update of iOS we’ll hear from the tinfoil hat crowd that Apple is doing something else to force people to buy new phones. And it all started years ago when people tried to prove their theories by counting subject hits on Google.

    I can read it now in my mind. iOS 11.2.2 is released and the swarm says their iPhones are even slower now because Apple did it gain!
    Call them the tinfoil hat crowd until you’re blue in the face. Condescend to them about hysteria. But remember one thing. Apple admitted to slowing phones without telling anyone. Think about that for a moment and consider the trust that was broken. Consider who’s perception was actually more accurate than your own.
  • Reply 40 of 53
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    larrya said:
    lkrupp said:
    78Bandit said:
    macxpress said:
    I see people are already thinking that maybe come November/December they'll schedule a swap of their iPhone X battery. I wonder how many will actually do this?
    Apple's current diagnostic testing for battery capacity won't identify all instances where a battery can't supply the proper voltage under load.  In those circumstances phones will test good but will still be throttled up to 50%.  I would look for the informal policy of replacing batteries at the customers request for $29 to go away once Apple releases its new Battery Health app and the user and the Genius Bar employees can see if the phone is throttled because of voltage insufficiency.

    I'm also hoping Apple speced a better battery in the iPhone 8 and X as well as worked on their chipset power draw requirements in designing the A11 Bionic.  No way Apple engineers think it is acceptable to throttle a phone that is just over a year old; that was a stopgap measure to cover for a design flaw in the 6, 6S, and 7.
    Bla, bla, bla,bla. This is mass hysteria and Apple is letting those hysterical users replace their batteries if they want to. And as sure as death and taxes we’ll next start to see reports and articles claiming the battery swap didn’t speed up the phones and Apple is still throttling their devices to force upgrades. On Apple’s own discussion boards people are now claiming ALL their Apple devices are being slowed down, including the Mac Mini, the iMac, the Watch, everything. It’s a huge dirty snowball that gets bigger with each hysterical claim. And with each future update of iOS we’ll hear from the tinfoil hat crowd that Apple is doing something else to force people to buy new phones. And it all started years ago when people tried to prove their theories by counting subject hits on Google.

    I can read it now in my mind. iOS 11.2.2 is released and the swarm says their iPhones are even slower now because Apple did it gain!
    Call them the tinfoil hat crowd until you’re blue in the face. Condescend to them about hysteria. But remember one thing. Apple admitted to slowing phones without telling anyone. Think about that for a moment and consider the trust that was broken. Consider who’s perception was actually more accurate than your own.
    That's not what they said exactly and you know it, so you just created some strawman. Throttling and power management of all kind go hand in hand and have always occured in even new mobile device and that's exactly what the release notes were about. The battery's condition itself were already indicated that they degraded performance and needed replacing in settings.

    The problem was not that they hid it, it is that they assumed the message was clear enough and that people could link their action in power management to the battery's performance and that people would be conscious that batteries degrade normally according to charging usage.

    They made a few assumption about user's knowledge that turned out false (they should be assumed to know nothing at all time seemingly) and they also communicate more at the level of a power or technically proficient user than a most of their regular cients.





    bb-15
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