The Exynos 8890 launched in 2016 and, its successor, the Exynos 8895 in 2017. Both used similar Mongoose cores, the M1 and M2. The M2 was only a slight tweaking from the M1.
The M3 is a new design. So it's not exactly year over year performance as they essentially stood still in 2017.
Irrelevant as to whether it’s a new design. Nobody has ever come close to 4,000 single core. Not Samsung, not Qualcomm or even ARM themselves. Likewise, neither of them has ever seen increases in performance anywhere near 2X. Ever.
To think Samsung is going to hit 4,000 in single core us just wishful thinking.
Agreed. A 2X increase in single core performance for an Android phone using either a Samsung or Qualcomm chip is hugely significant. If Samsung has achieved this it is a game changer for them (multi core performance is basically nonsense for most phone operations). It also means it’ll leave the Snapdragon version of the S9 in the dust—does that seem like a likely move by Samsung? This seems suspicious for sure, but we’ll see once it’s released.
What? They announced a chip without announcing the product that will use it? Well I’m sure Android P will have deep feature integration with this... /s
If you don't have a clue, better don't talk about it!!! This chip Exynos 9810 will be used in Samsung's flagship phones (S9, S9+, Note 9 or whatever it is called) for 2018, except for USA/China where Qualcomm's Snapdragon 845 will be used. This is known to everyone in Android world.
Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X.
Notably for this launch, Samsung is touting the chip's capabilities relating to image processing and "neural network-based deep learning," in what could be considered an attempt to match Apple and the new features introduced with the iPhone X.
The design lifecycle for these products is measured in years, not months. In other words, Samsung was working on this stuff in parallel to Apple, not serially.
Yes. Credit where credit is due. Samsung is not borrowing the Neural aspect from Apple, nor depth sensing.
It's clear that those aspects were baked in long before the A11 was even announced. The reality is they were developed in parallel but are just on different roadmaps.
If we are to believe Apple, the X wasn't even planned for 2017. That would have put Samsung ahead of Apple (early 2018 release for S9) but, like I said, this is roadmaps and product release cycles, not much more (unless Apple borrowed the NPU from Huawei of course )
I don’t buy for a minute their 2X single core claim. Samsung has never achieved anywhere near that year over year in any of their CPUs.
Further, how could they double single core and yet manage a measly 40% multi core increase? Something doesn’t add up.
Unless...
They doubled performance of their low power cores by 2X, not their high power cores.
The Exynos 8890 launched in 2016 and, its successor, the Exynos 8895 in 2017. Both used similar Mongoose cores, the M1 and M2. The M2 was only a slight tweaking from the M1.
The M3 is a new design. So it's not exactly year over year performance as they essentially stood still in 2017.
Irrelevant as to whether it’s a new design. Nobody has ever come close to 4,000 single core. Not Samsung, not Qualcomm or even ARM themselves. Likewise, neither of them has ever seen increases in performance anywhere near 2X. Ever.
To think Samsung is going to hit 4,000 in single core us just wishful thinking.
Why is that irrelevant? Because you say so? Hardly convincing. Having a new design is very relevant.
You're arguing with Samsung's claims. Obviously we'll see when the Galaxy S9 launches, but I don't see why Samsung would lie about their performance to such an extent.
I’m pretty sure Samsung would say just about anything to hype up future products. This was a company that boosted clock speeds ONLY while benchmark tests ran and throttled it the rest of the time.
It looks like Samsung will extend their graphics lead and start approaching Apple in single core and multi core performance. It's clear that Apple has a decent lead in CPU performance.
Graphics lead!? Nonsense.
Samsung’s phones have ridiculously high density displays, that’s why they need all that graphics power - to drive the displays.
If you look at the top of that list in the link you provided, Apple’s A10X has a huge lead over everyone else; 4698. You’ll also notice that’s for the 12.9” iPad Pro - it has a huge display.
What? They announced a chip without announcing the product that will use it? Well I’m sure Android P will have deep feature integration with this... /s
If you don't have a clue, better don't talk about it!!! This chip Exynos 9810 will be used in Samsung's flagship phones (S9, S9+, Note 9 or whatever it is called) for 2018, except for USA/China where Qualcomm's Snapdragon 845 will be used. This is known to everyone in Android world.
Why is Qualcomm’s Snapdragon being used in the USA & China and their own chip everywhere else?
Is this some kind of backroom deal to license Qualcomm’s wireless IP for use in their Exynos?
"Why is Qualcomm’s Snapdragon being used in the USA & China and their own chip everywhere else?"
The USA still use Qualcomm's legacy CDMA2000 system (used by Verizon and Sprint), and Qualcomm control the IP for it in their own chips. For China, I assume their network operators must still have portions of CDMA2000. CDMA2000 is sunsetting, but who knows when.
The rest of the world predominantly doesn't use CDMA2000, so other vendors' modem chips (MediaTek, Samsung Exynos, etc.) can be used (or non-CDMA2000 chips can be used on USA's GSM networks, such as AT&T and T-Mobile, which is why Apple have two iPhone flavors per model -- one with Intel, one with Qualcomm). No Qualcomm licensing is involved in chips that don't support CDMA2000.
I don’t buy for a minute their 2X single core claim. Samsung has never achieved anywhere near that year over year in any of their CPUs.
Further, how could they double single core and yet manage a measly 40% multi core increase? Something doesn’t add up.
Unless...
They doubled performance of their low power cores by 2X, not their high power cores.
The Exynos 8890 launched in 2016 and, its successor, the Exynos 8895 in 2017. Both used similar Mongoose cores, the M1 and M2. The M2 was only a slight tweaking from the M1.
The M3 is a new design. So it's not exactly year over year performance as they essentially stood still in 2017.
Irrelevant as to whether it’s a new design. Nobody has ever come close to 4,000 single core. Not Samsung, not Qualcomm or even ARM themselves. Likewise, neither of them has ever seen increases in performance anywhere near 2X. Ever.
To think Samsung is going to hit 4,000 in single core us just wishful thinking.
Why is that irrelevant? Because you say so? Hardly convincing. Having a new design is very relevant.
You're arguing with Samsung's claims. Obviously we'll see when the Galaxy S9 launches, but I don't see why Samsung would lie about their performance to such an extent.
I’m pretty sure Samsung would say just about anything to hype up future products. This was a company that boosted clock speeds ONLY while benchmark tests ran and throttled it the rest of the time.
Since 2013 they've been much more transparent on device performance. As well, their performance claims are often consistent with the end result. Obviously we'll see how it holds up when the S9 launches in a couple months.
It looks like Samsung will extend their graphics lead and start approaching Apple in single core and multi core performance. It's clear that Apple has a decent lead in CPU performance.
Graphics lead!? Nonsense.
Samsung’s phones have ridiculously high density displays, that’s why they need all that graphics power - to drive the displays.
If you look at the top of that list in the link you provided, Apple’s A10X has a huge lead over everyone else; 4698. You’ll also notice that’s for the 12.9” iPad Pro - it has a huge display.
Graphical lead for a smartphone SoC.
The A10X in the 12.9" iPad Pro is not a smartphone SoC by any means. Note that the 12.9" iPad Pro even offers 23% more performance than the 10.5" iPad Pro. Trying to squeeze the A10X into an iPhone would result in even lower performance than the A11.
Gmgravytrain:
"Samsung's motto is, "Anything Apple innovates, we can copy better after five or six attempts -- or three-to-five years, whichever comes first."
Fixed that for you.
I don’t buy for a minute their 2X single core claim. Samsung has never achieved anywhere near that year over year in any of their CPUs.
Further, how could they double single core and yet manage a measly 40% multi core increase? Something doesn’t add up.
Unless...
They doubled performance of their low power cores by 2X, not their high power cores.
The Exynos 8890 launched in 2016 and, its successor, the Exynos 8895 in 2017. Both used similar Mongoose cores, the M1 and M2. The M2 was only a slight tweaking from the M1.
The M3 is a new design. So it's not exactly year over year performance as they essentially stood still in 2017.
Irrelevant as to whether it’s a new design. Nobody has ever come close to 4,000 single core. Not Samsung, not Qualcomm or even ARM themselves. Likewise, neither of them has ever seen increases in performance anywhere near 2X. Ever.
To think Samsung is going to hit 4,000 in single core us just wishful thinking.
Why is that irrelevant? Because you say so? Hardly convincing. Having a new design is very relevant.
You're arguing with Samsung's claims. Obviously we'll see when the Galaxy S9 launches, but I don't see why Samsung would lie about their performance to such an extent.
a. That it’s new is indeed irrelevant to his point that they won’t make that number.
b. As for Samsung lying about their performance, are we talking about the same Samsung?
Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X.
Notably for this launch, Samsung is touting the chip's capabilities relating to image processing and "neural network-based deep learning," in what could be considered an attempt to match Apple and the new features introduced with the iPhone X.
The design lifecycle for these products is measured in years, not months. In other words, Samsung was working on this stuff in parallel to Apple, not serially.
If we are to believe Apple, the X wasn't even planned for 2017. That would have put Samsung ahead of Apple (early 2018 release for S9) but, like I said, this is roadmaps and product release cycles, not much more (unless Apple borrowed the NPU from Huawei of course )
Nope. Apple said the X with its final feature set, namely Face ID, wasn’t originally expected to be ready so early, but they never said whether or not the A11 was or not.
Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X.
Notably for this launch, Samsung is touting the chip's capabilities relating to image processing and "neural network-based deep learning," in what could be considered an attempt to match Apple and the new features introduced with the iPhone X.
The design lifecycle for these products is measured in years, not months. In other words, Samsung was working on this stuff in parallel to Apple, not serially.
If we are to believe Apple, the X wasn't even planned for 2017. That would have put Samsung ahead of Apple (early 2018 release for S9) but, like I said, this is roadmaps and product release cycles, not much more (unless Apple borrowed the NPU from Huawei of course )
Nope. Apple said the X with its final feature set, namely Face ID, wasn’t originally expected to be ready so early, but they never said whether or not the A11 was or not.
If the X hadn't been released this year, it would have put Samsung ahead - yes, on depth sensing for FaceID-style use.
First paragraph of this article:
"Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X."
Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X.
Notably for this launch, Samsung is touting the chip's capabilities relating to image processing and "neural network-based deep learning," in what could be considered an attempt to match Apple and the new features introduced with the iPhone X.
The design lifecycle for these products is measured in years, not months. In other words, Samsung was working on this stuff in parallel to Apple, not serially.
If we are to believe Apple, the X wasn't even planned for 2017. That would have put Samsung ahead of Apple (early 2018 release for S9) but, like I said, this is roadmaps and product release cycles, not much more (unless Apple borrowed the NPU from Huawei of course )
Nope. Apple said the X with its final feature set, namely Face ID, wasn’t originally expected to be ready so early, but they never said whether or not the A11 was or not.
If the X hadn't been released this year, it would have put Samsung ahead - yes, on depth sensing for FaceID-style use.
First paragraph of this article:
"Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X."
Your supposition is that Apple was "fortunate" to be able to incorporate depth sensing and deep learning into the A11 Bionic for the iPhone X, whereas I suspect that it was actually the availability of VCSEL's of sufficient capability and in sufficient volume for the iPhone X.
I would note, again, that Apple's new models in the fall will likely be all FaceID, and second generation VCSEL"s. For that, Apple is funding Finisar to renovate a facility in Texas to create and produce the next generations of VCSEL's.
"VCSELs power some of the most sophisticated technology we've ever developed and we're thrilled to partner with Finisar over the next several years to push the boundaries of VCSEL technology and the applications they enable," said Jeff Williams, Apple's chief operating officer, in a statement.
"We're extremely proud that our involvement will help transform another American community into a manufacturing powerhouse."
Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X.
Notably for this launch, Samsung is touting the chip's capabilities relating to image processing and "neural network-based deep learning," in what could be considered an attempt to match Apple and the new features introduced with the iPhone X.
The design lifecycle for these products is measured in years, not months. In other words, Samsung was working on this stuff in parallel to Apple, not serially.
If we are to believe Apple, the X wasn't even planned for 2017. That would have put Samsung ahead of Apple (early 2018 release for S9) but, like I said, this is roadmaps and product release cycles, not much more (unless Apple borrowed the NPU from Huawei of course )
Nope. Apple said the X with its final feature set, namely Face ID, wasn’t originally expected to be ready so early, but they never said whether or not the A11 was or not.
If the X hadn't been released this year, it would have put Samsung ahead - yes, on depth sensing for FaceID-style use.
First paragraph of this article:
"Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X."
Again, he said the phone with Face ID now known as the X was expected to take longer. He said nothing of the A11 taking longer. We’re talking about processors. And since the A11 is also in the 8, even if the X was delayed a year the A11 would be in the 8....so your claim about samsung being first if the X was delayed is multiple layers of nonsense.
Basically, if your bragging rights require parallel universes you’re employing some serious mental gymnastics.
I don’t buy for a minute their 2X single core claim. Samsung has never achieved anywhere near that year over year in any of their CPUs.
Further, how could they double single core and yet manage a measly 40% multi core increase? Something doesn’t add up.
Unless...
They doubled performance of their low power cores by 2X, not their high power cores.
The Exynos 8890 launched in 2016 and, its successor, the Exynos 8895 in 2017. Both used similar Mongoose cores, the M1 and M2. The M2 was only a slight tweaking from the M1.
The M3 is a new design. So it's not exactly year over year performance as they essentially stood still in 2017.
In Samsung's release they put "2.9GHz" and 2x performance together in one sentence, so that got to be the performance core. On the other hand, Qualcomm Snapdragon 835 stands similar to Exynos 8895 with a single core score about ~1900, and Qualcomm only claimed ~25% single core uplift for its 2.8GHz performance core. So if Samsung's claim is true, that leaves Snapdragon 845 far behind.
I know Samsung/Qualcomm have their exclusive deals for USA/China market, but would it make any sense if the performance gap is so large?
The Exynos 8890 launched in 2016 and, its successor, the Exynos 8895 in 2017. Both used similar Mongoose cores, the M1 and M2. The M2 was only a slight tweaking from the M1.
The M3 is a new design. So it's not exactly year over year performance as they essentially stood still in 2017.
Irrelevant as to whether it’s a new design. Nobody has ever come close to 4,000 single core. Not Samsung, not Qualcomm or even ARM themselves. Likewise, neither of them has ever seen increases in performance anywhere near 2X. Ever.
To think Samsung is going to hit 4,000 in single core us just wishful thinking.
Agreed. A 2X increase in single core performance for an Android phone using either a Samsung or Qualcomm chip is hugely significant. If Samsung has achieved this it is a game changer for them (multi core performance is basically nonsense for most phone operations). It also means it’ll leave the Snapdragon version of the S9 in the dust—does that seem like a likely move by Samsung? This seems suspicious for sure, but we’ll see once it’s released.
Well, I think what they might have done (and to respond to my own post above), is quoting single-core score at 2.9GHz v.s. widely published score at 1.7GHz. If one normalize to frequency, the real single-core uplift is probably just ~20%. This would be inline with Qualcomm's claim to their Snapdragon 845, which is performance core runs up to 2.8GHz and has 25%~30% perf uplift, and the efficiency core runs up to 1.8GHz and has 15% perf uplift.
What? They announced a chip without announcing the product that will use it? Well I’m sure Android P will have deep feature integration with this... /s
If you don't have a clue, better don't talk about it!!! This chip Exynos 9810 will be used in Samsung's flagship phones (S9, S9+, Note 9 or whatever it is called) for 2018, except for USA/China where Qualcomm's Snapdragon 845 will be used. This is known to everyone in Android world.
So where did Samsung state that as fact?
They do NOT need to tell anyone, because it is that much OBVIOUS to anyone who knows about Android/Samsung phone launch cycles. If you do NOT know about Android phones, that is fine. But don't comment as if you know about it. Qualcomm launched Snapdragon 845 few weeks back. Do they NEED to tell ANYONE that it would be the SoC used in majority of the Android flagship phones to be launched in 2018? There is NO need for that, it is that obvious.
Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X.
Notably for this launch, Samsung is touting the chip's capabilities relating to image processing and "neural network-based deep learning," in what could be considered an attempt to match Apple and the new features introduced with the iPhone X.
The design lifecycle for these products is measured in years, not months. In other words, Samsung was working on this stuff in parallel to Apple, not serially.
If we are to believe Apple, the X wasn't even planned for 2017. That would have put Samsung ahead of Apple (early 2018 release for S9) but, like I said, this is roadmaps and product release cycles, not much more (unless Apple borrowed the NPU from Huawei of course )
Nope. Apple said the X with its final feature set, namely Face ID, wasn’t originally expected to be ready so early, but they never said whether or not the A11 was or not.
If the X hadn't been released this year, it would have put Samsung ahead - yes, on depth sensing for FaceID-style use.
First paragraph of this article:
"Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X."
Again, he said the phone with Face ID now known as the X was expected to take longer. He said nothing of the A11 taking longer. We’re talking about processors. And since the A11 is also in the 8, even if the X was delayed a year the A11 would be in the 8....so your claim about samsung being first if the X was delayed is multiple layers of nonsense.
Basically, if your bragging rights require parallel universes you’re employing some serious mental gymnastics.
I was not limiting my post to the A11:
"Yes. Credit where credit is due. Samsung is not borrowing the Neural aspect from Apple, nor depth sensing."
I do not need 'bragging rights' and there are no mental gymnastics anywhere to be seen except for your attempt to centre on the A11 when it was painfully clear that I was NOT limiting myself to the A11 alone.
Comments
It's clear that those aspects were baked in long before the A11 was even announced. The reality is they were developed in parallel but are just on different roadmaps.
If we are to believe Apple, the X wasn't even planned for 2017. That would have put Samsung ahead of Apple (early 2018 release for S9) but, like I said, this is roadmaps and product release cycles, not much more (unless Apple borrowed the NPU from Huawei of course
I’m pretty sure Samsung would say just about anything to hype up future products. This was a company that boosted clock speeds ONLY while benchmark tests ran and throttled it the rest of the time.
Graphics lead!? Nonsense.
Samsung’s phones have ridiculously high density displays, that’s why they need all that graphics power - to drive the displays.
If you look at the top of that list in the link you provided, Apple’s A10X has a huge lead over everyone else; 4698. You’ll also notice that’s for the 12.9” iPad Pro - it has a huge display.
The USA still use Qualcomm's legacy CDMA2000 system (used by Verizon and Sprint), and Qualcomm control the IP for it in their own chips. For China, I assume their network operators must still have portions of CDMA2000. CDMA2000 is sunsetting, but who knows when.
The rest of the world predominantly doesn't use CDMA2000, so other vendors' modem chips (MediaTek, Samsung Exynos, etc.) can be used (or non-CDMA2000 chips can be used on USA's GSM networks, such as AT&T and T-Mobile, which is why Apple have two iPhone flavors per model -- one with Intel, one with Qualcomm). No Qualcomm licensing is involved in chips that don't support CDMA2000.
Graphical lead for a smartphone SoC.
The A10X in the 12.9" iPad Pro is not a smartphone SoC by any means. Note that the 12.9" iPad Pro even offers 23% more performance than the 10.5" iPad Pro. Trying to squeeze the A10X into an iPhone would result in even lower performance than the A11.
b. As for Samsung lying about their performance, are we talking about the same Samsung?
http://www.idownloadblog.com/2013/07/30/samsung-caught-cheating-s4/
http://bgr.com/2013/11/27/samsung-benchmark-cheating-banned-htc/
But hey, at least they weren’t the only ones doing it:
https://www.engadget.com/2013/10/02/samsung-reportedly-not-alone-in-cheating-android-benchmarks/
http://bgr.com/2013/10/02/android-benchmark-optimization/
...enjoy your knockoffs.
First paragraph of this article:
"Samsung has launched its newest application processor for mobile devices, the Exynos 9 Series 9810, but claimed new features to the processor line, including depth-sensing face detection and deep learning capabilities, suggest Samsung may be borrowing some concepts from in Apple's A11 Bionic, used in the iPhone 8 and iPhone X."
I would note, again, that Apple's new models in the fall will likely be all FaceID, and second generation VCSEL"s. For that, Apple is funding Finisar to renovate a facility in Texas to create and produce the next generations of VCSEL's.
https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-invests-390m-in-finisar-iphone-laser-chip-maker/
"VCSELs power some of the most sophisticated technology we've ever developed and we're thrilled to partner with Finisar over the next several years to push the boundaries of VCSEL technology and the applications they enable," said Jeff Williams, Apple's chief operating officer, in a statement.
"We're extremely proud that our involvement will help transform another American community into a manufacturing powerhouse."
Basically, if your bragging rights require parallel universes you’re employing some serious mental gymnastics.
On the other hand, Qualcomm Snapdragon 835 stands similar to Exynos 8895 with a single core score about ~1900, and Qualcomm only claimed ~25% single core uplift for its 2.8GHz performance core. So if Samsung's claim is true, that leaves Snapdragon 845 far behind.
I know Samsung/Qualcomm have their exclusive deals for USA/China market, but would it make any sense if the performance gap is so large?
Reference
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12114/qualcomm-announces-snapdragon-845-soc
And single-core score from
https://browser.geekbench.com/android-benchmarks/
"Yes. Credit where credit is due. Samsung is not borrowing the Neural aspect from Apple, nor depth sensing."
I do not need 'bragging rights' and there are no mental gymnastics anywhere to be seen except for your attempt to centre on the A11 when it was painfully clear that I was NOT limiting myself to the A11 alone.