• 59,504 results for "usb-c" • 3,695 results for Electronics : Computers & Accessories : "usb-c hub" • 2,639 results for "usb-c dock"
• 1,013 results for Electronics : Computers & Accessories : "thunderbolt 3 dock" <-- there are "reasonably priced" docks in these results
... "Industry standards"? What do you think USB *is*?
...
... Sorry, but no need to make the 99% of users who don't need it carry that around so you can save a tiny bit of hassle. ... Or get an adapter with ethernet and SD card slot and HDMI and a few USB-A ports and call it good. Carry it with you in your laptop bag next to your charger. ... MOST users don't need all those ports in random places that aren't where they usually sit and work.
re: core values - Jobs was about 'think different' and supporting content producers. He prioritized making the best products and championing user experience. Apple has since shifted more towards prioritizing a completely different audience, pop culture (to the detriment to 'think different' and creatives). They also have shifted profits and marketing think in priority over best products and UX. Note, these aren't all or nothing kinds of shifts in most cases, but a matter of what the main driver is.
re: USB-C - Yes, there is a lot of junk gear out there in a confusing mess. And, if you look closely at your 3,695 'USB-C hubs' you'll notice that not many (any?) are actually USB-C hubs (I only looked at the first few pages). They are actually more like 'docks' where they plug into USB-C and then give a bunch of USB-A ports (or other ports). What I'm talking about is something like the USB-A hubs I have, that plug into USB-A and provide 4-8 USB-A ports. Why are there none of these in USB-C form? Probably because there's not much need for them, as there are very few USB-C devices to plug in. Everyone needs USB-C to a bunch of USB-A ports, because all their devices are USB-A.
re: pros and hassle - I guess this gets back to the question of 'what is pro?' and target markets mentioned above. When you say that 'most people' are you talking about pros who use their laptops in various demanding roles? Or, are you talking more about coffee-shop jockeys who could likely do the same thing with their MacBook Air or MacBook but bought the 'pro' because they are professionals? It's this a bit like saying 'most people' don't even need a Mac and could do fine with an iPad? Sure, but we're talking the pro market here, not 'most people.'
Yes, some pros don't need the ports, or need a certain port, etc. But, many pros might like to have at least a USB-A port so they don't need an extra dongle for that. I agree that Ethernet is a pretty big port, but I'll bet most pros use it. The saving grace there, is that besides server-room people, I suppose most pros use the laptops at a desk where a dock is often common to get Ethernet. I suppose you're a bit right on video, since there are so many different connection types... but again, that's something a pro would likely use often (like giving presentations).
The problem with dongles, in my experience, is that they often aren't up to the same quality/reliability as built-in ports, unless you get just the right one (and are quite careful in terms of physical reliability). You end up more like a situation PC people end up in with this dongle not working in that situation, etc. (I think due to different chip-sets used in different dongles.)
But, again, my argument isn't that many aren't just fine with a couple USB-C ports. My issue is more with it being, suddenly, the only option, even for pro machines. Most people like thin and light... but for pros, those *usually* aren't the top-priority design factors. This is, IMO, what led to the 'trash can' Mac Pro. Great idea, but it wasn't what pros were asking for or prioritizing.
• 59,504 results for "usb-c" • 3,695 results for Electronics : Computers & Accessories : "usb-c hub" • 2,639 results for "usb-c dock"
• 1,013 results for Electronics : Computers & Accessories : "thunderbolt 3 dock" <-- there are "reasonably priced" docks in these results
... "Industry standards"? What do you think USB *is*?
...
... Sorry, but no need to make the 99% of users who don't need it carry that around so you can save a tiny bit of hassle. ... Or get an adapter with ethernet and SD card slot and HDMI and a few USB-A ports and call it good. Carry it with you in your laptop bag next to your charger. ... MOST users don't need all those ports in random places that aren't where they usually sit and work.
re: core values - Jobs was about 'think different' and supporting content producers. He prioritized making the best products and championing user experience. Apple has since shifted more towards prioritizing a completely different audience, pop culture (to the detriment to 'think different' and creatives). They also have shifted profits and marketing think in priority over best products and UX. Note, these aren't all or nothing kinds of shifts in most cases, but a matter of what the main driver is.
re: USB-C - Yes, there is a lot of junk gear out there in a confusing mess. And, if you look closely at your 3,695 'USB-C hubs' you'll notice that not many (any?) are actually USB-C hubs (I only looked at the first few pages). They are actually more like 'docks' where they plug into USB-C and then give a bunch of USB-A ports (or other ports). What I'm talking about is something like the USB-A hubs I have, that plug into USB-A and provide 4-8 USB-A ports. Why are there none of these in USB-C form? Probably because there's not much need for them, as there are very few USB-C devices to plug in. Everyone needs USB-C to a bunch of USB-A ports, because all their devices are USB-A.
re: pros and hassle - I guess this gets back to the question of 'what is pro?' and target markets mentioned above. When you say that 'most people' are you talking about pros who use their laptops in various demanding roles? Or, are you talking more about coffee-shop jockeys who could likely do the same thing with their MacBook Air or MacBook but bought the 'pro' because they are professionals? It's this a bit like saying 'most people' don't even need a Mac and could do fine with an iPad? Sure, but we're talking the pro market here, not 'most people.'
Yes, some pros don't need the ports, or need a certain port, etc. But, many pros might like to have at least a USB-A port so they don't need an extra dongle for that. I agree that Ethernet is a pretty big port, but I'll bet most pros use it. The saving grace there, is that besides server-room people, I suppose most pros use the laptops at a desk where a dock is often common to get Ethernet. I suppose you're a bit right on video, since there are so many different connection types... but again, that's something a pro would likely use often (like giving presentations).
The problem with dongles, in my experience, is that they often aren't up to the same quality/reliability as built-in ports, unless you get just the right one (and are quite careful in terms of physical reliability). You end up more like a situation PC people end up in with this dongle not working in that situation, etc. (I think due to different chip-sets used in different dongles.)
But, again, my argument isn't that many aren't just fine with a couple USB-C ports. My issue is more with it being, suddenly, the only option, even for pro machines. Most people like thin and light... but for pros, those *usually* aren't the top-priority design factors. This is, IMO, what led to the 'trash can' Mac Pro. Great idea, but it wasn't what pros were asking for or prioritizing.
I disagree with your assessment of Apple's priorities. They've *always* been geared towards making computing accessible by the most people possible, and creating easy to use tools that give users joy. They most certainly are still doing that. I don't know what "pop culture" has to do with anything other than marketing to an entire world full of people. It's always been about marketing (see "Think Different"), and how you can argue against best products and UX when you're looking at the most successful computer company with the best rated/selling products and highest customer sat rating in the world is beyond me. Should Apple go back to building clunky towers for a shrinking minority of the market because that's what you want? Hell no. Yes, they stumbled a bit with some pro hardware, but they're definitely making up for it now. You're looking at things through your own myopic worldview. If it were up to you, Apple would probably be bankrupt long ago.
"I suppose most pros use the laptops at a desk" ...yes, you're getting it... "where a dock is often common to get Ethernet" — SEE, if you have a desk you work at, you just attach the USB-C adapter to whatever cable you used to stick in your old laptop, and you forget that it's even there! OR get a dock that has every connection you need at work accessible by a single cable, including power. THAT is a benefit to Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C! Traveling workers who need more ports can get one of the multi-port hubs to pack in their bag with their power supply. It's not that hard. Presentations... just watch, as more and more laptops feature USB-C and no HDMI, how many places will already have a USB-C connection available to connect to. IT WILL HAPPEN, and in the interim, the costs are just not that big of a deal.
Again with the USB-C stuff... You're going to have to just get over it and move on. I've seen numerous hubs that have a few USB-C ports on them as well, not sure if there's one that goes one USB-C to 4-8 USB-C out ports but I'm not shopping for one. If that doesn't exist yet, I'm sure it'll come. How you can say "there are very few USB-C devices to plug in" after I provided thousands and thousands of examples? You realize the latest Dell XPS (the ones everyone says they're going to go get when they hate on the MBP) have USB-C only now, right? WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED?
USB-A *sucks* as a connector in comparison, and the faster we get rid of it the better. Apple is hastening that movement, which I applaud and fully accept there may be some instance where that is a minor hassle, but most of the complaining come from people making a mountain out of a molehill — tales of large, heavy bags of many dongles that must be lugged everywhere, stuff like that when all one needs is most likely a small hub to go in their bag if they happen to need whatever random connectors on a regular basis for work. Meanwhile the rest of us will march into the future where more and more connectors move to USB-C and we can get on with the next generation of connectivity instead of pandering to large, slow, old, unidirectional, myriad connectors.
Marco makes some good points, but it's one of the growing pains of this sort of transition, and I'd say the longterm benefits far outweigh the costs. It's also one of the problems of open industry standards — anyone can build a cable or adapter, which leads to your problem with adapters. Look at all the garbage lightning connectors/splitters out there that barely work with the iPhone, if they do at all. Do you hate Lightning too because of it? Just take care in what you're buying. It'll get better. We will move on to a better future without USB-A, and it won't hurt nearly as badly as some people would like to convince everyone else it will.
I know what you and the vocal minority want from Apple — a 17" matte screened behemoth laptop with SATA and removable memory and every single port and card slot under the sun and eSATA and optical and and and... If the dinosaurs had their way, we'd still have four flavors of SCSI ports, terminators, ADB... It's time to move on. Everyone else is, with or without you.
fastasleep said: I disagree with your assessment of Apple's priorities. ... I don't know what "pop culture" has to do with anything other than marketing to an entire world full of people. ... and how you can argue against best products and UX when you're looking at the most successful computer company with the best rated/selling products and highest customer sat rating in the world is beyond me.
...
Presentations... just watch, as more and more laptops feature USB-C and no HDMI, how many places will already have a USB-C connection available to connect to.
...
... not sure if there's one that goes one USB-C to 4-8 USB-C out ports but I'm not shopping for one. If that doesn't exist yet, I'm sure it'll come.
...
USB-A *sucks* as a connector in comparison, and the faster we get rid of it the better. ... Meanwhile the rest of us will march into the future where more and more connectors move to USB-C and we can get on with the next generation of connectivity instead of pandering to large, slow, old, unidirectional, myriad connectors.
...
I know what you and the vocal minority want from Apple — a 17" matte screened behemoth laptop with SATA and removable memory and every single port and card slot under the sun and eSATA and optical and and and... If the dinosaurs had their way, we'd still have four flavors of SCSI ports, terminators, ADB... It's time to move on. Everyone else is, with or without you.
re: pop-culture - the problem is that pop-culture is antithetical to 'think different' and good design. It's fashion (flavor of the week) instead of style or timeless. There have been a lot of popular products that haven't been the best or had top UX. Success isn't necessarily an indicator. Apple had the best products and UX back when Windows machines outnumbered them by a massive ratio. But, I'm also arguing that Apple is going to lose that top spot and reputation if they don't stick to your foundations... it is a bit part of what got them there.
re: presentations - I don't think there is a simple solution there, but I've heard many places don't even have HDMI yet (still VGA), so I think it will be a long, long time until they have USB-C. But, HDMI is probably the biggest current 'standard' you'd find.
re: USB-C hub - I think the reason there aren't 4-8 port USB-C hubs, is that there isn't much demand. Who has 4-8 USB-C devices to plug in? They all have a bunch of USB-A stuff. I'm not opposed to 'marching into the future,' I'm just stating the reality. From what I can see, it's going to be a somewhat long, painful transition so it would be nice if Apple took that into consideration, especially on pro products.
re: vocal minority want - You might have described some, but not me. 15" is fine for mobile. I'll plug into displays at my desk. I don't need SATA, removable memory, or every single port and card slot. But, I do think at least one model in the pro lineup should have a few of the common ports w/o dongles, and that thin and light should be the primary design factor for that model, but user needs. That might not even be the model I'd personally buy, but I think it should exist.
What Apple seems to have done is target the entire lineup towards one user-type, just with different amounts of money.
Comments
re: core values - Jobs was about 'think different' and supporting content producers. He prioritized making the best products and championing user experience. Apple has since shifted more towards prioritizing a completely different audience, pop culture (to the detriment to 'think different' and creatives). They also have shifted profits and marketing think in priority over best products and UX. Note, these aren't all or nothing kinds of shifts in most cases, but a matter of what the main driver is.
re: USB-C - Yes, there is a lot of junk gear out there in a confusing mess. And, if you look closely at your 3,695 'USB-C hubs' you'll notice that not many (any?) are actually USB-C hubs (I only looked at the first few pages). They are actually more like 'docks' where they plug into USB-C and then give a bunch of USB-A ports (or other ports). What I'm talking about is something like the USB-A hubs I have, that plug into USB-A and provide 4-8 USB-A ports. Why are there none of these in USB-C form? Probably because there's not much need for them, as there are very few USB-C devices to plug in. Everyone needs USB-C to a bunch of USB-A ports, because all their devices are USB-A.
re: industry standards - cf. http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/08/15/psa-thunderbolt-3-cables-longer-than-05m-generally-dont-support-usb-31-speeds or https://marco.org/2017/10/14/impossible-dream-of-usb-c
re: pros and hassle - I guess this gets back to the question of 'what is pro?' and target markets mentioned above. When you say that 'most people' are you talking about pros who use their laptops in various demanding roles? Or, are you talking more about coffee-shop jockeys who could likely do the same thing with their MacBook Air or MacBook but bought the 'pro' because they are professionals? It's this a bit like saying 'most people' don't even need a Mac and could do fine with an iPad? Sure, but we're talking the pro market here, not 'most people.'
Yes, some pros don't need the ports, or need a certain port, etc. But, many pros might like to have at least a USB-A port so they don't need an extra dongle for that. I agree that Ethernet is a pretty big port, but I'll bet most pros use it. The saving grace there, is that besides server-room people, I suppose most pros use the laptops at a desk where a dock is often common to get Ethernet. I suppose you're a bit right on video, since there are so many different connection types... but again, that's something a pro would likely use often (like giving presentations).
The problem with dongles, in my experience, is that they often aren't up to the same quality/reliability as built-in ports, unless you get just the right one (and are quite careful in terms of physical reliability). You end up more like a situation PC people end up in with this dongle not working in that situation, etc. (I think due to different chip-sets used in different dongles.)
But, again, my argument isn't that many aren't just fine with a couple USB-C ports. My issue is more with it being, suddenly, the only option, even for pro machines. Most people like thin and light... but for pros, those *usually* aren't the top-priority design factors. This is, IMO, what led to the 'trash can' Mac Pro. Great idea, but it wasn't what pros were asking for or prioritizing.
"I suppose most pros use the laptops at a desk" ...yes, you're getting it... "where a dock is often common to get Ethernet" — SEE, if you have a desk you work at, you just attach the USB-C adapter to whatever cable you used to stick in your old laptop, and you forget that it's even there! OR get a dock that has every connection you need at work accessible by a single cable, including power. THAT is a benefit to Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C! Traveling workers who need more ports can get one of the multi-port hubs to pack in their bag with their power supply. It's not that hard. Presentations... just watch, as more and more laptops feature USB-C and no HDMI, how many places will already have a USB-C connection available to connect to. IT WILL HAPPEN, and in the interim, the costs are just not that big of a deal.
Again with the USB-C stuff... You're going to have to just get over it and move on. I've seen numerous hubs that have a few USB-C ports on them as well, not sure if there's one that goes one USB-C to 4-8 USB-C out ports but I'm not shopping for one. If that doesn't exist yet, I'm sure it'll come. How you can say "there are very few USB-C devices to plug in" after I provided thousands and thousands of examples? You realize the latest Dell XPS (the ones everyone says they're going to go get when they hate on the MBP) have USB-C only now, right? WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED?
USB-A *sucks* as a connector in comparison, and the faster we get rid of it the better. Apple is hastening that movement, which I applaud and fully accept there may be some instance where that is a minor hassle, but most of the complaining come from people making a mountain out of a molehill — tales of large, heavy bags of many dongles that must be lugged everywhere, stuff like that when all one needs is most likely a small hub to go in their bag if they happen to need whatever random connectors on a regular basis for work. Meanwhile the rest of us will march into the future where more and more connectors move to USB-C and we can get on with the next generation of connectivity instead of pandering to large, slow, old, unidirectional, myriad connectors.
Marco makes some good points, but it's one of the growing pains of this sort of transition, and I'd say the longterm benefits far outweigh the costs. It's also one of the problems of open industry standards — anyone can build a cable or adapter, which leads to your problem with adapters. Look at all the garbage lightning connectors/splitters out there that barely work with the iPhone, if they do at all. Do you hate Lightning too because of it? Just take care in what you're buying. It'll get better. We will move on to a better future without USB-A, and it won't hurt nearly as badly as some people would like to convince everyone else it will.
I know what you and the vocal minority want from Apple — a 17" matte screened behemoth laptop with SATA and removable memory and every single port and card slot under the sun and eSATA and optical and and and... If the dinosaurs had their way, we'd still have four flavors of SCSI ports, terminators, ADB... It's time to move on. Everyone else is, with or without you.
re: presentations - I don't think there is a simple solution there, but I've heard many places don't even have HDMI yet (still VGA), so I think it will be a long, long time until they have USB-C. But, HDMI is probably the biggest current 'standard' you'd find.
re: USB-C hub - I think the reason there aren't 4-8 port USB-C hubs, is that there isn't much demand. Who has 4-8 USB-C devices to plug in? They all have a bunch of USB-A stuff. I'm not opposed to 'marching into the future,' I'm just stating the reality. From what I can see, it's going to be a somewhat long, painful transition so it would be nice if Apple took that into consideration, especially on pro products.
re: vocal minority want - You might have described some, but not me. 15" is fine for mobile. I'll plug into displays at my desk. I don't need SATA, removable memory, or every single port and card slot. But, I do think at least one model in the pro lineup should have a few of the common ports w/o dongles, and that thin and light should be the primary design factor for that model, but user needs. That might not even be the model I'd personally buy, but I think it should exist.
What Apple seems to have done is target the entire lineup towards one user-type, just with different amounts of money.