President Trump mentions Apple's pending US investment in State of the Union address

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  • Reply 21 of 53
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,016member

    macapfel said:
    Tim Cook helping Trump is the worst thing I've ever seen.
    And regarding the money coming back to the US: what do you think Apple invested its overseas money in? A lot of it in US bonds and the like. Hence, the money has already been invested in the US. There won't be a real gain in money. The only one who wins is Trump. And Apple helped him. After 2017 was filled with bad news, 2018 kicked of with this bad news from Apple.
    This is bad for Apples image and reputation.

    That is not a a very sober nor mature view.  Tim Cook is not "helping Trump" intentionally.  He is doing what's best for Apple.  CEO's would be fools to resist everything a President does because the don't like him or his policies personally.  Cook has stated that they will work with him, yet speak up when they disagree.  

    I'm not sure where you got your understanding of finance from, but it surely wasn't an economist, or even an accountant.  Apple will be repatriating something like $200 billion dollars.  This is money that was stuck on overseas investments and could not be invested here because of an astronomical tax rate.  Not only will Apple and others bring literally trillions back into the US itself, but the government will receive hundreds of billions in taxes (10%) as a result of the reform.  

    2017 was filled with bad news, and good news.  I'm not sure how Apple taking advantage of the new tax laws hurts their reputation.  I suppose you could say that Trump mentioning Apple may not help them, but even that isn't a cut a dried perception.  I think that you're allowing your emotions to override your reasoning here.  
    SpamSandwichairnerdentropysspinnydfastasleep
  • Reply 22 of 53
    carnegiecarnegie Posts: 1,078member

    frankie said:
    Of course he does.  He needs to take credit for anything to stoke his ego, even though all of this money was already earmarked to be spent on regular employees, etc in the first place. 

    Where are the ACTUAL jobs?  From what I've read Apple will now spend HALF of what it did last year on taxes, which is already a joke.

    I love Apple products but give me a break.
    Apple won't be spending half of what it used to on taxes as a result of the recent tax law changes. For a while it will actually spend more, as it now has to pay taxes it otherwise wouldn't have had to (because it wouldn't have repatriated certain foreign earnings).
    jbdragonairnerd
  • Reply 23 of 53
    carnegiecarnegie Posts: 1,078member


    Apple already said they’ll be hiring 20,000 people. What is the real problem here?
    No, not “hiring.”

    Apple said their investment would “create” 20,000 jobs.  They didn’t provide a breakout, but I imagine many of those jobs will be in the support community — app developers, construction workers for new facilities, etc. All good — I’m not belittling these —but many will not be “Apple hires.”
    The 20,000 new jobs created which Apple referred to are jobs at Apple, not the kind of jobs in the support community which you refer to. Apple was pretty clear about that in its press release. For comparison, Apple created about 40,000 new U.S. jobs (i.e. added that many Apple employees) from 2010 to 2016. It wouldn't surprise me for that pace to be slower over the next 5 years, though I think Apple was pretty conservative in the numbers - both for new U.S. job creation and U.S. spending - it announced.
    edited January 2018 jbdragonairnerdspinnyd
  • Reply 24 of 53
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,861administrator
    Hey, look at that, another batch of comments in violation of our commenting guidelines deleted.

    If you can't see your comment, refer to the Commenting Guidelines.
    spinnyd
  • Reply 25 of 53

    frankie said:
    Of course he does.  He needs to take credit for anything to stoke his ego, even though all of this money was already earmarked to be spent on regular employees, etc in the first place. 

    Where are the ACTUAL jobs?  From what I've read Apple will now spend HALF of what it did last year on taxes, which is already a joke.

    I love Apple products but give me a break.
    Actually they weren't going to do that under past tax code. That is evident by the size of a cash pile they accumulated over all these years overseas.  You can’t spend those money on employees unless you bring the money HERE...at 40% tax rate...since rate was too high, Apple were not bringing the money back...until trump’s tax cuts, that is.
    You can’t really spin this, oh wait, no, you totally can... by mistake I tried to view you as a reasonable person, attributing to you the traits you evidently do not possess.. Please, forgive me for being so naive. 
    Hunny, NO COMPANY HAS EVER PAID 40%. Or 35% or 32%. This is why Apple and others have lawyers to find the loopholes that they direct the accountants towards. Oh, and this tax scam bill has so many new loopholes, it’s going to be even funnier watching the malfeasance expand at your expense.

    This is quite the interesting, unkillable lie that techie boyz like to spout off as proof of their political acumen, which is as legitimate as their contiuned support for liars and thieves like Assange and Snowden, when facts to the contrary have emerged. But of course, no one likes to admit to being scammed more than techie boyz who fancy themselves libertarians but are often just politically dumb racists who hate girls.

    This tax cut is a payday loan scam that you people will need to pay back at 110% interest. Pay attention to mommy and daddy when they file their 2018 taxes next January, and they have a furrowed brow in a vain attempt to understand why their liability has gone up. But at least you have your iMac Pro they bought you. 

    Oh, and for the child who stated that tax cuts don’t cause deficits: now that’s someone who both doesn’t pay his own way in life and certainly didn’t think that when Obama was president. Definitely not old enough to know the deficits created under Reagan through those tax cuts **that had no subsequent increase in wages.** Everyone in Cuba knows this.

    It’s a joy watching your country stumble and fall, as you all cheer it on.
    edited January 2018 dewmedjames4242jony0
  • Reply 26 of 53
    carnegiecarnegie Posts: 1,078member

    blastdoor said:
    Apple would have invested more than $0 and would have hired more than 0 people in the US even without the tax bill. For the tiny number of people who are interested in looking at this sort of thing rationally, the interesting question is — how much more than 0 would those investments have been? 

    One way to get a guesstimate of that would be to plot Apple’s annual $ invested and new hires in the US over the last 5 years, fit a regression line, and project that regression line into the future. How do these new investments compare to the regression line? That is, how do the new investments compare to our best estimate of what Apple would have done anyway? 

    Another angle is to approach it from the buyback/dividend/debt side. That’s a lot easier because it all shows up pretty clearly in financial reports. 

    Eventually I suspect somebody will do this and then we’ll have a better sense of what the real effects of the tax law change on Apple’s behavior are. 
    For some of the spending which Apple referred to, we don't have detailed enough reporting to make precise comparisons. But we can still ballpark it pretty well.

    Apple had previously reported that it spent over $50 billion with U.S. suppliers and manufacturers in 2016, and 2016 was a down year for Apple revenues (and for cost of revenues, which that $50 billion would have been a part of). Of the $350 billion which Apple referred to in its press release, $275 billion was to came from spending with U.S. suppliers and manufacturers. That's $55 billion a year (which Apple indicated was the pace for 2018) for 5 years. So it's reasonable to believe that that amount isn't really increasing (as projected, anyway) as a result of the recent tax law changes. As I indicated in a previous post, I think Apple was pretty conservative with the numbers it projected. I'd expect its spending with U.S. suppliers and manufacturers over the next 5 years will end up being more than $275 billion.

    The comparison for U.S. capital expenditures is a little harder to make. But given what Apple has spent on capital expenditures globally over the last 5 years (around $55 billion), it doesn't seem likely that the $30 billion (in the U.S.) over the next 5 years, which it referred to in its press release, represents a dramatic increase over what it would have spent otherwise.
    blastdoorforegoneconclusion
  • Reply 27 of 53
    sdw2001 said:
    Love or hate Trump, you really can’t spin this in such a way that it didn’t have anything to do with the tax bill. And the tax bill is directly a result of Trump pushing for it.
    Sure you can: Apple could already get free money without repatriating their overseas earnings through bond sales. The rock bottom federal interest rates guaranteed that the return on the bond would always be higher. Thus, repatriating the money was not actually necessary for any future investments. It's also the type of scenario that is not available to the average citizen. 
    jony0
  • Reply 28 of 53
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,016member
    sdw2001 said:
    Love or hate Trump, you really can’t spin this in such a way that it didn’t have anything to do with the tax bill. And the tax bill is directly a result of Trump pushing for it.
    Sure you can: Apple could already get free money without repatriating their overseas earnings through bond sales. The rock bottom federal interest rates guaranteed that the return on the bond would always be higher. Thus, repatriating the money was not actually necessary for any future investments. It's also the type of scenario that is not available to the average citizen. 

    That's thin.  It also flies in the face of what Cook himself has said.  Moreover, it doesn't account for the billions in tax revenue the US Govt will receive.  I'm not making the argument that Apple wouldn't invest at all or can't work around the repatriation issue.  I'm saying the tax bill was a significant factor in their announcements, and Trump was a significant part of the tax bill.  If you can't admit that, you're just being a partisan.  
    SpamSandwichjbdragonspinnyd
  • Reply 29 of 53
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,375member
    No surprises here. It's just how the credit blame cycle (CBC) works. When the going is good everyone jumps on the bandwagon to claim credit. When things swing in the other direction, which they inevitably do, it's always the other guy's fault. 
    jony0
  • Reply 30 of 53
    sdw2001 said:

    macapfel said:
    Tim Cook helping Trump is the worst thing I've ever seen.
    And regarding the money coming back to the US: what do you think Apple invested its overseas money in? A lot of it in US bonds and the like. Hence, the money has already been invested in the US. There won't be a real gain in money. The only one who wins is Trump. And Apple helped him. After 2017 was filled with bad news, 2018 kicked of with this bad news from Apple.
    This is bad for Apples image and reputation.

    That is not a a very sober nor mature view.  Tim Cook is not "helping Trump" intentionally.  He is doing what's best for Apple.  CEO's would be fools to resist everything a President does because the don't like him or his policies personally.  Cook has stated that they will work with him, yet speak up when they disagree.  

    I'm not sure where you got your understanding of finance from, but it surely wasn't an economist, or even an accountant.  Apple will be repatriating something like $200 billion dollars.  This is money that was stuck on overseas investments and could not be invested here because of an astronomical tax rate.  Not only will Apple and others bring literally trillions back into the US itself, but the government will receive hundreds of billions in taxes (10%) as a result of the reform.  

    2017 was filled with bad news, and good news.  I'm not sure how Apple taking advantage of the new tax laws hurts their reputation.  I suppose you could say that Trump mentioning Apple may not help them, but even that isn't a cut a dried perception.  I think that you're allowing your emotions to override your reasoning here.  
    And in what do you think Apple invested overseas? Nothing to do with the US? Unlikely. More likely, as said, eg some bonds related to the US. Or what do you think?
    jony0
  • Reply 31 of 53
    uroshnor said:
    frankie said:
    Of course he does.  He needs to take credit for anything to stoke his ego, even though all of this money was already earmarked to be spent on regular employees, etc in the first place. 

    Where are the ACTUAL jobs?  From what I've read Apple will now spend HALF of what it did last year on taxes, which is already a joke.

    I love Apple products but give me a break.
    Actually they weren't going to do that under past tax code. That is evident by the size of a cash pile they accumulated over all these years overseas.  You can’t spend those money on employees unless you bring the money HERE...at 40% tax rate...since rate was too high, Apple were not bringing the money back...until trump’s tax cuts, that is.
    You can’t really spin this, oh wait, no, you totally can... by mistake I tried to view you as a reasonable person, attributing to you the traits you evidently do not possess.. Please, forgive me for being so naive. 
    Repatriating the money is motivated by contents of the bill, but not an essential part of it. 

    The bill contains a section on a tax holiday for repatriating cash - that part has occurred on several occasions previously in the last 40 years.

    We won’t really be able to tell the longer term impact of the rest of the bill on overseas cash holdings by companies - it’s possible that more will simply choose to HQ overseas and become foreign companies with an American subsidiary for example.

    It’s entirely possible the 1.4 trillion gap between the bill’s revenue and government expenditure will simply accelerate the decline of America as a global power.

    On the other hand , the outcomes from the tax bill might be net positive long term - it’s just too early to tell. However the recent announcements of repatriation of current large offshore holdings is NOT caused by the bill as a whole, just one part of it.
    It is possible that it will happen. And for that NOT TO HAPPEN, the largest portion of the fed spendings HAS TO BE CUT. By cutting SS and medicare by half, the positive net flow of cash will be restored.
    While FICA tax brings in just 33% of the revenue for the fed govt, those programs that FICA is financing, take away about 60+% of the total fed budget. That is what needs to stop. This is crazy, mathematically speaking. Yes, it is hard to do that in a year, but it has to be done...even if it is done with a phase out period. If it is not done voluntarily, the reality will force to take the same steps later, but on its own (much harsher) terms.

    It is quite clear that the decision Apple made about bringing the money back home was done due to them deeming it a more faivaroable env-t now than what it was before. That has “weirdly” coincided with the tax bill. Just like companies that have decided to pay their employees one time bonus checks, which has strangely coincided with the tax bill, as well.
    So, I guess, the tax bill is only in part “to blame” for that, aince the companies were planning on doing it even before the bill was passed. That means that, the evil and greedy companies aren’t so evil, after all. Who knew!
    /s
    edited January 2018 SpamSandwichtallest skil
  • Reply 32 of 53
    macapfel said:
    Tim Cook helping Trump is the worst thing I've ever seen.
    And regarding the money coming back to the US: what do you think Apple invested its overseas money in? A lot of it in US bonds and the like. Hence, the money has already been invested in the US. There won't be a real gain in money. The only one who wins is Trump. And Apple helped him. After 2017 was filled with bad news, 2018 kicked of with this bad news from Apple.
    This is bad for Apples image and reputation.
    Lol. Just lol. When a muppet watching fake news collides with reality, this is what happens.
    Trump and Apple working to make america great again...how terrible. Cats and dogs living together! Absolutely heartbreaking and dangerous! Dangerous to the narrative! It also becomes harder and harder to peddle the same old horseshit /s

    so, what is the solution? Correct the course of telling the narrative, and start doing it less? Absolutely not! Instead, lets double down on the same narrative!
    (sigh)...
    edited January 2018 SpamSandwichtallest skilentropysspinnyd
  • Reply 33 of 53
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,043member
    mattinoz said:
    Until those of us in other counties find a way to get Apple to invest here instead so our local profits turn in to operational costs (plus local jobs) and can't be double taxed in USA.


    That is the thing, with the US Tax rate being lowered US company will be bring the money home verse investing elsewhere This was the hold idea from the beginning. However, Apple and other companies maybe looking to move out of California, since the state and local government are looking for ways to make companies pay the difference in the old tax code and the new one. 

    http://dailysignal.com/2018/01/23/california-lawmakers-want-businesses-to-turn-over-half-their-tax-cut-savings-to-the-state/

    spinnyd
  • Reply 34 of 53
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,043member
    macapfel said:
    Tim Cook helping Trump is the worst thing I've ever seen.
    And regarding the money coming back to the US: what do you think Apple invested its overseas money in? A lot of it in US bonds and the like. Hence, the money has already been invested in the US. There won't be a real gain in money. The only one who wins is Trump. And Apple helped him. After 2017 was filled with bad news, 2018 kicked of with this bad news from Apple.
    This is bad for Apples image and reputation.

    You actually bring up a good point. We all know Tim did not like Trump as person, and does not like any thing Trump (Republicans) and the people who supported him stand for. His views and politics of the world are completely different so he says. He has put his money where his mouth is, he gave widely to those who he was aligned with. He also allocated Apple money to things he believed in which were for the better good. However at the end of the day he felt it was more important to bring the money back at lower tax rate then paying a higher tax rate and letting the government use(waste) the money for the benefit of people of the US.

    Yes the Money is siting in Banks in the US, but held by entities outside the US. The physical money will not move, but the ability to do what they like with the money will significant change. Apple will no long need to take out Bond (the bond they has are not US bonds they are all over seas bonds) They can bring the money home and invest it in the US, and also pay some nice dividend to those who believed in Apple. I can not wait to get my increase Dividend checks, my be time to buy more stock.

    However, Tim did not help Trump, Tim help the people of the US, Trump will be gone, but the net effect of this change will continue long after Trump and the people of the US will benefit, I feel apple will do far better things with this money than if it had gone to the government. I just hope Apple will begin moving their investments outside Calf the rest of the US can use the help.
    edited January 2018 jony0
  • Reply 35 of 53
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,043member
    sdw2001 said:
    Love or hate Trump, you really can’t spin this in such a way that it didn’t have anything to do with the tax bill. And the tax bill is directly a result of Trump pushing for it.
    Sure you can: Apple could already get free money without repatriating their overseas earnings through bond sales. The rock bottom federal interest rates guaranteed that the return on the bond would always be higher. Thus, repatriating the money was not actually necessary for any future investments. It's also the type of scenario that is not available to the average citizen. 

    Most of the Bonds were done out side the US, so apple is paying interest on the Bond (which they write off their taxes in the US) and that interest is people paid to people out side the US so the US does not get to tax those Bond interest payments. This is far from simple to understand, take a few finance course then you will begin to understand. Trust me any CFO worth his salt will make the Right time value of money decision about this kind of money and Apple would not have decide to bring it back it made more sense financially to keep doing what they were doing.
  • Reply 36 of 53
    maestro64 said:
    macapfel said:
    Tim Cook helping Trump is the worst thing I've ever seen.
    And regarding the money coming back to the US: what do you think Apple invested its overseas money in? A lot of it in US bonds and the like. Hence, the money has already been invested in the US. There won't be a real gain in money. The only one who wins is Trump. And Apple helped him. After 2017 was filled with bad news, 2018 kicked of with this bad news from Apple.
    This is bad for Apples image and reputation.

    You actually bring up a good point. We all know Tim did not like Trump as person, and does not like any thing Trump (Republicans) and the people who supported him stand for. His views and politics of the world are completely different so he says. He has put his money where his mouth is, he gave widely to those who he was aligned with. He also allocated Apple money to things he believed in which were for the better good. However at the end of the day he felt it was more important to bring the money back at lower tax rate then paying a higher tax rate and letting the government use(waste) the money for the benefit of people of the US.

    Yes the Money is siting in Banks in the US, but held by entities outside the US. The physical money will not move, but the ability to do what they like with the money will significant change. Apple will no long need to take out Bond (the bond they has are not US bonds they are all over seas bonds) They can bring the money home and invest it in the US, and also pay some nice dividend to those who believed in Apple. I can not wait to get my increase Dividend checks, my be time to buy more stock.

    However, Tim did not help Trump, Tim help the people of the US, Trump will be gone, but the net effect of this change will continue long after Trump and the people of the US will benefit, I feel apple will do far better things with this money than if it had gone to the government. I just hope Apple will begin moving their investments outside Calf the rest of the US can use the help.
    Let’s be clear about something. Tim is the CEO of Apple and the decisions he makes must benefit Apple. He’s not CEO of the world’s most profitable charity and whenever Apple does something that looks like a “win” for Apple customers, it is done because it will ultimately benefit the goals of making a profit. That is the bottom line.
    entropysGG1
  • Reply 37 of 53
    thomprthompr Posts: 1,521member

    Apple already said they’ll be hiring 20,000 people. What is the real problem here?
    No, not “hiring.”

    Apple said their investment would “create” 20,000 jobs.  They didn’t provide a breakout, but I imagine many of those jobs will be in the support community — app developers, construction workers for new facilities, etc. All good — I’m not belittling these —but many will not be “Apple hires.”
    That argument is exactly what several articles provided, but it is WRONG.  The quote from Apple also stated that the job creation would occur through hiring at US locations.  Go back and read the actual quote instead of just swallowing the conclusions of the authors that wrote about it later.

    Here is the quote:

    "Apple expects to invest over $30 billion in capital expenditures in the US over the next five years and create over 20,000 new jobs through hiring at existing campuses and opening a new one,” which will initially “house technical support for customers.”"
    edited January 2018 SpamSandwich
  • Reply 38 of 53
    thompr said:

    Apple already said they’ll be hiring 20,000 people. What is the real problem here?
    No, not “hiring.”

    Apple said their investment would “create” 20,000 jobs.  They didn’t provide a breakout, but I imagine many of those jobs will be in the support community — app developers, construction workers for new facilities, etc. All good — I’m not belittling these —but many will not be “Apple hires.”
    That argument is exactly what several articles provided, but it is WRONG.  The quote from Apple also stated that the job creation would occur through hiring at US locations.  Go back and read the actual quote instead of just swallowing the conclusions of the authors that wrote about it later.

    Here is the quote:

    "Apple expects to invest over $30 billion in capital expenditures in the US over the next five years and create over 20,000 new jobs through hiring at existing campuses and opening a new one,” which will initially “house technical support for customers.”"
    Exactly. Tough to spin that direct quote into some other narrative that means the opposite.
  • Reply 39 of 53
    macapfel said:
    This is bad for Apples image and reputation.
    Always good for a laugh.
  • Reply 40 of 53
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    sdw2001 said:
    bshank said:
    sdw2001 said:
    frankie said:
    Of course he does.  He needs to take credit for anything to stoke his ego, even though all of this money was already earmarked to be spent on regular employees, etc in the first place. 

    Where are the ACTUAL jobs?  From what I've read Apple will now spend HALF of what it did last year on taxes, which is already a joke.

    I love Apple products but give me a break.
    Love or hate Trump, you really can’t spin this in such a way that it didn’t have anything to do with the tax bill. And the tax bill is directly a result of Trump pushing for it.
    This was basically handed to Trump on a silver platter and he nearly screwed it up. Sure, he deserves some credit, but with a large caveat here.
    I honestly don't know what that means.  He laid out the pillars for the tax bill and then negotiated with Congress to get to a final product.  I get it that many people can't stand him, but again, trying to diminish his role in this is a bit silly.  
    Except that...  There was no negotiation.   The tax bill was designed in secret, behind closed doors and then rammed through with zero debate or bipartisonship.   In fact, the only way they could get even some Republicans to vote for it was to bribe them or threaten them.

    But, in the end, they got what they really wanted:   $400,000,000.00 from the Koch Brothers.
    singularityjony0
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