Apple knew in advance about iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus 'Bendgate' says court filing

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 71
    DracarysDracarys Posts: 72member
    3.3 or 7.2 compared to what? The real issue should be how many iPhones out of, say, 100,000 suffered from bending. 3.3 times 0.00001 is still a very small number.

    Sounds like they’re playing with numbers to come up with a figure that looks bad.

    For example, Note 7 fans said only 1 in 10,000 phones had an overheating issue. Seems reasonable, except that the industry average is closer to 1 in several million.
    3.3 to 7.2% MORE likely than prior iPhones to bend. It's not 3.3 or 7.2 out of any number. So basically the iPhone 6 is 3.3% more likely to bend compared to an iPhone 5S. The iPhone 6+ is 7.2% more likely to bend. 
    avon b7
  • Reply 22 of 71
    wonkothesanewonkothesane Posts: 1,404member
    Dracarys said:
    3.3 or 7.2 compared to what? The real issue should be how many iPhones out of, say, 100,000 suffered from bending. 3.3 times 0.00001 is still a very small number.

    Sounds like they’re playing with numbers to come up with a figure that looks bad.

    For example, Note 7 fans said only 1 in 10,000 phones had an overheating issue. Seems reasonable, except that the industry average is closer to 1 in several million.
    3.3 to 7.2% MORE likely than prior iPhones to bend. It's not 3.3 or 7.2 out of any number. So basically the iPhone 6 is 3.3% more likely to bend compared to an iPhone 5S. The iPhone 6+ is 7.2% more likely to bend. 
    Uhm, nope. At least according to the article. There it says clearly TIMES, not percent. 

    In in any case, both are relative numbers and without reference mean nothing really. 
  • Reply 23 of 71
    Anachr0nAnachr0n Posts: 37member
    If your behind is that big , for crying out loud, please don’t sit on your damn phone.
    It’s the small behinds that are causing problems. :D
     Reducto ad absurdium : wrapping a phone around a soccer ball will Cause it to bend more than, say,  the earth. 
    MplsPcornchipwatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 71
    wonkothesanewonkothesane Posts: 1,404member
    Ok. Let’s say I have an upper spec limit for bending. Let’s assume this limit is validated such that agreeable in the realm of common sense use. 
    I have a small phone which is 10 times less likely to bend than that upper limit and make a larger thinner phone that is 3.3 times more likely to bend. In other words, it’s still giving you triple robustness relative to the (validated) spec. 

    Things change of course, depending on the actual limit range and the actual position of the 5s on that axis. 
  • Reply 25 of 71
    space2001space2001 Posts: 37member
    I have never put my 6Plus in back pocket - It's been replaced twice due to touch disease. It had always been kept in pristine condition in a case- never dropped, never sat on. First time was after it was 27 months old. Apple Genius put it on a level surface to show there was an 'almost undetectable bend', and said it was not a manufacturing defect, but due to my handling. Not much choice but to argue and then pay the out of warranty special replace option. The 6>s<plus was specifically changed/strengthened to reduce the instances of bending, presumably an acknowledgement that there was a defect in the 6Plus engineering. In the second replacement, which occurred 14 months after the first replace, this was likely due to being dropped - I had handed it down to my son, and although he was careful it had a scratch or two on the case indicating some drop had occurred.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 26 of 71
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,213member
    tbsteph said:
    If Apple knew the phone could be more susceptible to bending but didn’t attempt to fix and shipped anyway that doesn’t look good. I’d like to see some of the actual documentation.
     The iPhone 6 being more suseptible to bending than the smaller iPhone 5 (All other things being equal) should not surprise anyone. The question really is if the iPhone 6 is too bendable? Its bend-ability is relationship to the 5 is irrelevant. (FWIW, I had the 6 for three plus years without issue. However, I did not sit on it either.). Humbly, I submit this whole issue is more about eager attorneys - who will bend any and all directions necessary to win a lawsuit.
    Does someone have a link to data that shows those who had bend issues is because they sat on their phone? I have a hard time believing people all of a sudden started sitting on their phones more in 2013.
    muthuk_vanalingamgatorguy
  • Reply 27 of 71
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 8,811member
    My iPhone 6 bent, and it wasn't in my back pocket (ever). It was always in my front pocket. I don't know what exactly did it but the only thing I can guess is when I went go-karting with it in my front jeans pocket, and being pressed up against the side of the kart on some turns. Apple Store swapped it out. I've never had a phone bend before or since the 6, and Apple did indeed switch to a denser model of aluminum, so I have no reason to doubt it was too soft for the original 6 design.
    space2001watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 71
    ericthehalfbeeericthehalfbee Posts: 4,107member
    3.3 or 7.2 compared to what? The real issue should be how many iPhones out of, say, 100,000 suffered from bending. 3.3 times 0.00001 is still a very small number.

    Sounds like they’re playing with numbers to come up with a figure that looks bad.

    For example, Note 7 fans said only 1 in 10,000 phones had an overheating issue. Seems reasonable, except that the industry average is closer to 1 in several million.
    Apparently those came from internal Apple documents. Per the Vice story:

    The information is contained in internal Apple documents filed under seal in a class-action lawsuit that alleges Apple misled customers about touch disease. The documents remain under seal, but US District Court judge Lucy Koh made some of the information from them public in a recent opinion in the case.

    The company found that the iPhone 6 is 3.3 times more likely to bend than the iPhone 5s, and the iPhone 6 Plus is 7.2 times more likely to bend than the iPhone 5s, according to the documents.

    Irrelevant. My original point still stands. Saying something is 3.3 or 7.2 times more likely is meaningless without actual numbers.
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 71
    bonobobbonobob Posts: 204member
    nunzy said:
    Some people are never satisfied.

    Other phones bend too, but nobody is suing then.

    Judge Koh? She hates Apple.
    If she hates Apple so much, why did she deny class action certification?
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 71
    nunzynunzy Posts: 662member
    bonobob said:
    nunzy said:
    Some people are never satisfied.

    Other phones bend too, but nobody is suing then.

    Judge Koh? She hates Apple.
    If she hates Apple so much, why did she deny class action certification?
    She's wily.
  • Reply 31 of 71
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 1,729member
    tbsteph said:
    If Apple knew the phone could be more susceptible to bending but didn’t attempt to fix and shipped anyway that doesn’t look good. I’d like to see some of the actual documentation.
     The iPhone 6 being more suseptible to bending than the smaller iPhone 5 (All other things being equal) should not surprise anyone. The question really is if the iPhone 6 is too bendable? Its bend-ability is relationship to the 5 is irrelevant. (FWIW, I had the 6 for three plus years without issue. However, I did not sit on it either.). Humbly, I submit this whole issue is more about eager attorneys - who will bend any and all directions necessary to win a lawsuit.
    this x100. any phone will bend with enough pressure. How much is too much? There is no standard that I know of. The fact that Apple was aware helps the attorneys spin it their way, though.
    randominternetpersonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 71
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 4,213member
    3.3 or 7.2 compared to what? The real issue should be how many iPhones out of, say, 100,000 suffered from bending. 3.3 times 0.00001 is still a very small number.

    Sounds like they’re playing with numbers to come up with a figure that looks bad.

    For example, Note 7 fans said only 1 in 10,000 phones had an overheating issue. Seems reasonable, except that the industry average is closer to 1 in several million.
    Apparently those came from internal Apple documents. Per the Vice story:

    The information is contained in internal Apple documents filed under seal in a class-action lawsuit that alleges Apple misled customers about touch disease. The documents remain under seal, but US District Court judge Lucy Koh made some of the information from them public in a recent opinion in the case.

    The company found that the iPhone 6 is 3.3 times more likely to bend than the iPhone 5s, and the iPhone 6 Plus is 7.2 times more likely to bend than the iPhone 5s, according to the documents.

    Irrelevant. My original point still stands. Saying something is 3.3 or 7.2 times more likely is meaningless without actual numbers.
    Right. I’m just saying these numbers came from Apple. Whatever the number is clearly Apple knew the 6 was more prone to bending than previous iPhones.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 33 of 71
    hexclockhexclock Posts: 599member
    Well of course they were! They have all manner of machines to test that sort of thing. They probably came to the same conclusion I did, which is that as long as you don’t sit on it, or try real hard to bend it with your hands, or slam it in the car door, the device will perform as intended. 
    randominternetpersonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 71
    I bet the 15" MacBook Pro is significantly easier to bend than the 13" MacBook Pro too.  And I guarantee that Apple has very specific data about this, if not from formal testing then from engineering calculations.  Call the class action attorneys!  /s
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 71
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,151moderator
    If Apple knew the phone could be more susceptible to bending but didn’t attempt to fix and shipped anyway that doesn’t look good. I’d like to see some of the actual documentation.
    That’s not the determining factor of negligence.  If  the 5S and the 6 and the 6+ all were sufficiently
    strong to withstand ‘normal’ use, then it doesn’t matter that one is less resistant to bending than the others.  Because they all are at least as good as they need to be in that regard.  

    The question then becomes, do certain use cases represent normal use?  I’d say sitting on a smartphone, or any glass-covered electronic slab would fall well outside of acceptable normal handling of the device.  That any of these actually sustains such handling is impressive but should not impose a requirement on manufacturers to guarantee such.  
    edited May 2018 randominternetpersonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 71
    wonkothesanewonkothesane Posts: 1,404member
    If Apple knew the phone could be more susceptible to bending but didn’t attempt to fix and shipped anyway that doesn’t look good. I’d like to see some of the actual documentation.
    That’s not the determining factor of negligence.  If  the 5S and the 6 and the 6+ all were sufficiently
    strong to withstand ‘normal’ use, then it doesn’t matter that one is less resistant to bending than the others.  Because they all are at least as good as they need to be in that regard.  

    The question then becomes, do certain use cases represent normal use?  I’d say sitting on a smartphone, or any glass-covered electronic slab would fall well outside of acceptable normal handling of the device.  That any of these actually sustains such handling is impressive but should not impose a requirement on manufacturers to guarantee such.  
    Right. From a liability standpoint it boils down to whether the damage was caused by intended use, unintended use (aka foreseeable misuse) or misuse. 
    radarthekat
  • Reply 37 of 71
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 4,679member
    Of course they knew, they showed off the test fixture when it happen, it was not like they made that right after some idiot on the internet decided to see if they could bend it. It was completely obvious Apple was doing testing since they knew it would be an issue and needed to know what it took to bend the phone this the fancy test rig. 
  • Reply 38 of 71
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,302member
    3.3 or 7.2 compared to what? The real issue should be how many iPhones out of, say, 100,000 suffered from bending. 3.3 times 0.00001 is still a very small number.

    Sounds like they’re playing with numbers to come up with a figure that looks bad.

    For example, Note 7 fans said only 1 in 10,000 phones had an overheating issue. Seems reasonable, except that the industry average is closer to 1 in several million.
    Apparently those came from internal Apple documents. Per the Vice story:

    The information is contained in internal Apple documents filed under seal in a class-action lawsuit that alleges Apple misled customers about touch disease. The documents remain under seal, but US District Court judge Lucy Koh made some of the information from them public in a recent opinion in the case.

    The company found that the iPhone 6 is 3.3 times more likely to bend than the iPhone 5s, and the iPhone 6 Plus is 7.2 times more likely to bend than the iPhone 5s, according to the documents.

    Irrelevant. My original point still stands. Saying something is 3.3 or 7.2 times more likely is meaningless without actual numbers.
    Meaningless? Hardly. Is saying the likelihood of suffering lung cancer is 20 times higher for smokers compared to non-smokers meaningless? Nope. Perhaps you really meant it would be MORE meaningful to you to see actual numbers of "bent" iPhones too? I doubt Apple will ever reveal those much as you'd like to see them for whatever reason.
  • Reply 39 of 71
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,302member
    If Apple knew the phone could be more susceptible to bending but didn’t attempt to fix and shipped anyway that doesn’t look good. I’d like to see some of the actual documentation.
    That’s not the determining factor of negligence.  If  the 5S and the 6 and the 6+ all were sufficiently
    strong to withstand ‘normal’ use, then it doesn’t matter that one is less resistant to bending than the others.  Because they all are at least as good as they need to be in that regard.  

    The question then becomes, do certain use cases represent normal use?  I’d say sitting on a smartphone, or any glass-covered electronic slab would fall well outside of acceptable normal handling of the device.  That any of these actually sustains such handling is impressive but should not impose a requirement on manufacturers to guarantee such.  
    Fit for purpose...
    Would you be surprised to discover someone putting their phone in their front or back pocket? Neither would any of the OEM's. When they brag about these supposedly strong casings for their smartphones the inference would be they don't need to be coddled to prevent warping. 
    edited May 2018
  • Reply 40 of 71
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 5,288member
    If Apple knew the phone could be more susceptible to bending but didn’t attempt to fix and shipped anyway that doesn’t look good. I’d like to see some of the actual documentation.
    Somebody seeking monetary damages or to damage Apple might say that.  But otherwise it's a meaningless, irrelevant statement:   It's like saying that a wooden door is "more susceptible" to being broken than a steel door.

    The only thing that matters is whether or not the device serves its purpose without breaking unnecessarily or prematurely.   Simply comparing it to some other product or design means nothing.

    That said:   After 3 1/2 years my 6+ did just bend.   I put it and my grandson's iPhone 7 in my front right pocket where I almost always carry it while we played basketball.  When I pulled it out the screen was cracked.   It must have bent over the other phone when I stooped down.  Touch still works fine -- but no new batteries for me! 
    randominternetpersonradarthekat
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