Some game developers hint at abandoning the Mac if Apple phases out OpenGL

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 80
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 768member
    techpr said:
    So developers prefer to abandons instead of updating to a better technology?

    They did update to better technology: Metal
    moreck
  • Reply 22 of 80
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 8,818member
    CobraGuy said:
    auxio said:
    loopless said:
    I am not sure people realize that Microsoft does not support OpenGL either. Out of the box windows only supports only an ancient version of OpenGL -v1.2. Every graphics card manufacturer for windows has to ship their own up to date OpenGL drivers. The problem on macOS is that Apple controls the hardware and has to supply the drivers. 
    Nobody does OpenGL development for Windows.  Even with up-to-date video card drivers, it's buggy and slow compared to DirectX.  But yet game developers don't complain about having to write games for Microsoft's proprietary API.

    And oh look... a quick Google search shows that there's a technology called MoltenVK to allow developers to use Vulkan (the cross-platform Metal alternative) on top of Metal.  So the whining game developers who are happy to use proprietary APIs from Microsoft, but not Apple, are free to keep using cross-platform technologies.
    Well, DirectX has been out for years.

    i recall back in the day that ID Software (Doom and Quake) and Epic (Unreal) were once staunch supporters of OpenGL.

    Apple was once too.
    Not exactly. ID's Carmack had to argue the case for OpenGL to Jobs personally, rather than have Apple use its own internal API. The more things change...!

    https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/05/carmack-says-he-helped-convince-jobs-to-use-opengl-on-mac/

    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2146412825593223&id=100006735798590

    Alex1Nwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 80
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,201member
    nht said:
    Meh.  I would guess that Steam could provide a common OpenGL/Vulkan install for any Steam deployed games.  The loss of 32 bit support might be a little more annoying to work around since the usual solution is to run in a VM which likely isn't optimal for games.
    That’s OK, the complainants don’t care about optimal.  I think this whole move is to eliminate non-committed developers and reduce sub-par experiences.
    racerhomie3claire1anton zuykovAlex1Nwatto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 80
    sandorsandor Posts: 557member
    techpr said:
    So developers prefer to abandons instead of updating to a better technology?

    So developers find it more profitable to abandon instead of updating to a better technology?

    Fixed it for you.
    The couple of developers quoted seem to clearly point to a demarcation of fiscal return for the work involved.
    For some it will be worth it, for some it will not.
    racerhomie3moreckAlex1Nwatto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 80
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,201member
    crofford said:
    Just part of the plan to prepare for Mac OS on ARM.  
    More likely a move to their own GPUs.  Which would be a better way - give developers a compelling reason to move to Metal.  More carrot, less stick.
    racerhomie3moreckAlex1Nwatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 80
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 5,001member
    Perhaps with the introduction of eGPU's, gaming on the Mac would be more widely accepted. I think the lack of a proper GPU inside Macs is one of the major hold ups with gaming on the Mac...that and its usually just a shitty port from the Windows version that works half-ass. If you only want to put half the amount of work into it, don't expect a large return. 

    If a popular game is written specifically for the Mac in Metal (ie. PUBG) for example, and you're able to use an eGPU on a current Mac and going forward, I can see it taking off better than expected. Will it be as successful as the Windows side, most likely not, but will it be a total disaster with sales on the Mac, I doubt it. 
    moreckAlex1Nwatto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 80
    racerhomie3racerhomie3 Posts: 1,169member
    supadav03 said:
    Wouldn’t be surprised. Apple doesn’t seem to care about games or gamers outside the ultra-casual crowd. 
    Fortnight is ‘ultra casual’ 
    GTA San Andreas is ‘ultra casual ‘ ?
    moreckAlex1N
  • Reply 28 of 80
    bikertwinbikertwin Posts: 564member
    Do these developers realize OpenGL (ES) has also been deprecated on iOS & tvOS?

    So they’re abandoning the iOS (and tvOS) market completely?

    Good luck with that. Old school desktop/console games only.
    claire1Alex1N
  • Reply 29 of 80
    no cuda, i'm out.

    iOS is what Apple is focused on bc of $$$, yearly subscriptions via App store, like Adobe/M$ & all others are embracing as the future of profits. If gamers do not want profits, they don't need to develop games in Metal for iOS...their loss

    Whether it be OS X, or PC side; no laptop can provide enough internal horsepower to match what desktop gamers are used to. Which is why if you have a laptop and you are a 'serious' gamer, you get an eGPU, run a GTX 1080Ti modified in the case of OSX

    http://barefeats.com/macbook_pro_13in_egpu.html
    Alex1N
  • Reply 30 of 80
    boltsfan17boltsfan17 Posts: 2,198member
    It's kinda fun to think these threats will have some kind of impact, but... great gaming has moved away from computers.  Go check out the metacritic.com scores for most PC titles and you'll find something quite disturbing - not very many titles score into the 90's.  The PC suffers from an abundance of "meh".  And PC games have lots of bugs - it's the nature of the platform .. to much disparate hardware and lots of sketchy drivers.  Game companies can't make good titles...  For some reason this has spilled over into the XBox One too..
     
    For gaming I strongly recommend two consoles ... the Nintendo Switch and the PlayStation 4.

    On the Switch, The Legend of Zelda - Breath of the Wild is probably the best game ever made.  It has many finely tuned game systems: Physics, Time, Weather, Floral & Fauna, Meticulous sound, and the most immersive open world gaming I have ever experienced.  I'll hop in to kill 10 minutes and spend two hours.  It's not perfect ... nothing is ... but it's the closest thing to a Masterpiece the gaming world has seen thus far.

    On the PlayStation 4 you have many great titles.. "Grand Theft Auto V", "The Last of Us Remastered", "Uncharted 4", and the new "GOD of War" title.  Plus all the best games ported from the PC.  It's probably the best console to get for PG-13 gaming on up..


    There aren't very many good games on the Switch. Zelda is about the only one. If you like immersive open world gaming, the Witcher 3 is the best imo. The PS4 is blowing everyone away with all their incredible exclusive titles. Another game to add to your list is Horizon Zero Dawn. That game is pretty amazing. The new God of War game is really good. The HDR is the best I've seen in a game. So many more good exclusives on the way such as Last of Us 2, Days Gone, etc. 
  • Reply 31 of 80
    Apple probably doesn't care about gaming on Macs. It's just another win for Windows PCs, as usual.
  • Reply 32 of 80
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,906member
    Here is the thing, most game developers, with any smarts at all, are moving to Vulkan.    There is a fairly easy translation path between Vulkan and Metal so this really isn't a bit deal.   Vulkan is the new API if you want to be cross platform.
    mknelsonAlex1N
  • Reply 33 of 80
    macxpress said:
    Cry me a river...

    Why is that some developers are fine with doing this and it comes out pretty damn well and others are just ugh now we have to actually make a Mac game instead of a shitty port that runs half-ass? And then wonder why the Mac isn't a large market for games. 
    It's not as simple as that. You underestimate development considerations severely.
  • Reply 34 of 80

    loopless said:
    I am not sure people realize that Microsoft does not support OpenGL either. Out of the box windows only supports only an ancient version of OpenGL -v1.2. Every graphics card manufacturer for windows has to ship their own up to date OpenGL drivers. The problem on macOS is that Apple controls the hardware and has to supply the drivers. 

    True, however up to this point developers could still use OpenGL and not DirectX, and despite it being inferior, having cross-platform compatibility. If Metal, like DirectX, is pushed, and on MacOS it is actually not supported anymore (as opposed to Windows, where it still can be used), they have no more cross-platform capabilities.
  • Reply 35 of 80

    It's kinda fun to think these threats will have some kind of impact, but... great gaming has moved away from computers.  Go check out the metacritic.com scores for most PC titles and you'll find something quite disturbing - not very many titles score into the 90's.  
    PC gaming is huge!!!
  • Reply 36 of 80
    anton zuykovanton zuykov Posts: 1,040member
    If they made the game with metal maybe it wouldn't suck as much, and I would be buying the expansions and trowing money at them!
    I am pretty sure, that is the actual reason for his:
    ["I'm not going to spend any time on Metal because Macs are a pretty small percentage of the market, and really probably not worth it even now," suggests Austin. "I just do it because I try to support fans if I can." ]
    Most like it is a small, but sufficiently big portion of his revenue. The problem with windows is piracy, while Mac users would pay rather than using something with keygen or whatever... 
    Alex1N
  • Reply 37 of 80
    moreckmoreck Posts: 187member
    This would matter if OpenGL wasn’t outdated. It’s slow, ineffiecient and not officially supported in Windows either. It begs the question: How much of a future do these developers really think openGL has? Are they concerned with porting to Linux, which has anysmal game support in the first place?
    Alex1N
  • Reply 38 of 80
    anton zuykovanton zuykov Posts: 1,040member
    moreck said:
    This would matter if OpenGL wasn’t outdated. It’s slow, ineffiecient and not officially supported in Windows either. It begs the question: How much of a future do these developers really think openGL has?
    That is an irrelevant question. The less time you spend on a certain technology in order to add it to your project, the better! Not that many developers things about the future and how effective Metal is (which it is).
  • Reply 39 of 80
    creek0512creek0512 Posts: 100member
    Sounds like they won’t update their existing games to support 64-bit and Metal. I don’t see how either of these would be an issue for new games.
    Alex1N
  • Reply 40 of 80
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 1,981member
    mcdave said:
    crofford said:
    Just part of the plan to prepare for Mac OS on ARM.  
    More likely a move to their own GPUs.  Which would be a better way - give developers a compelling reason to move to Metal.  More carrot, less stick.
    Apple's A11 SoC already started including Apple's in-house designed GPU
    Alex1N
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