"I'm not going to spend any time on Metal because Macs are a pretty small percentage of the market, and really probably not worth it even now," suggests Austin. “ just do it because I try to support fans if I can."
He’s probably right. Apple is not into gaming, never has been, probably never will be. Those claiming this action will kill Apple gaming and the Mac along with it are just pissing into the wind. If that were true the Mac would have been dead a decade ago. The PC gaming market is not as big as the enthusiasts would have you believe.
You’re aware that the gaming market is way bigger than Hollywood now? Why do you think they can put out prize money of x million dollars for winning the Dota 2 World Cup etc? And PC gaming is a bit less than half of the gaming market actually (in Asia much less though).
This is why Apple needs to acquire super talented studios and create 1st party Metal games. Let these developers complain while Apple eats their lunch. Mac users have more money, the games are missing though.
It's kinda fun to think these threats will have some kind of impact, but... great gaming has moved away from computers. Go check out the metacritic.com scores for most PC titles and you'll find something quite disturbing - not very many titles score into the 90's. The PC suffers from an abundance of "meh". And PC games have lots of bugs - it's the nature of the platform .. to much disparate hardware and lots of sketchy drivers. Game companies can't make good titles... For some reason this has spilled over into the XBox One too..
For gaming I strongly recommend two consoles ... the Nintendo Switch and the PlayStation 4.
On the Switch, The Legend of Zelda - Breath of the Wild is probably the best game ever made. It has many finely tuned game systems: Physics, Time, Weather, Floral & Fauna, Meticulous sound, and the most immersive open world gaming I have ever experienced. I'll hop in to kill 10 minutes and spend two hours. It's not perfect ... nothing is ... but it's the closest thing to a Masterpiece the gaming world has seen thus far.
On the PlayStation 4 you have many great titles.. "Grand Theft Auto V", "The Last of Us Remastered", "Uncharted 4", and the new "GOD of War" title. Plus all the best games ported from the PC. It's probably the best console to get for PG-13 gaming on up..
How about Apple TV? The best streaming box capable of 4k Dolby Vision graphics on par with Switch?....
Seriously why is Apple dragging their feet in gaming?
I am not sure people realize that Microsoft does not support OpenGL either. Out of the box windows only supports only an ancient version of OpenGL -v1.2. Every graphics card manufacturer for windows has to ship their own up to date OpenGL drivers. The problem on macOS is that Apple controls the hardware and has to supply the drivers.
Nobody does OpenGL development for Windows. Even with up-to-date video card drivers, it's buggy and slow compared to DirectX. But yet game developers don't complain about having to write games for Microsoft's proprietary API.
And oh look... a quick Google search shows that there's a technology called MoltenVK to allow developers to use Vulkan (the cross-platform Metal alternative) on top of Metal. So the whining game developers who are happy to use proprietary APIs from Microsoft, but not Apple, are free to keep using cross-platform technologies.
Well, DirectX has been out for years.
i recall back in the day that ID Software (Doom and Quake) and Epic (Unreal) were once staunch supporters of OpenGL.
Apple was once too.
Didn't John Carmack essentially develop OpenGL? Or was at least pivotal in porting it to the Mac OS?
Look outside games for a moment, there are a lot of Pro media creation apps that rely on OpenGL. Usually they're made by small teams, for specific tasks, and the only reason we get Mac versions, is because they can develop the interface using Qt, and the engine with OpenGL, and amortise the high cost, relative to number of seats, of maintaining a Mac version, across Windows and Linux.
The Mac is riding on Windows' coattails for a lot of these sorts of niche, heavy-lifting apps. We get a version, because we're low marginal cost. Once that changes these developers aren't going to re-tool for Metal, they're just going to dump macOS.
Would these products be better with Metal? No doubt, but that assumes that a Metal version is an option on the table.
If Apple drops OpenGL it's not Mac that's doomed, it's OpenGL. Because Windows already favors Direct3D, so if Mac now favors Metal that only leaves Linux, but they are tech nerds who will push for Vulcan to replace OpenGL just because its newer.
That would not create an ideal situation for devs, a different graphics API for each platform! But it will give an advantage to the bigger porting companies who have the resources to create translation layers. Smaller devs will have to either use an engine or pick and choose platforms.
I am not sure people realize that Microsoft does not support OpenGL either. Out of the box windows only supports only an ancient version of OpenGL -v1.2. Every graphics card manufacturer for windows has to ship their own up to date OpenGL drivers. The problem on macOS is that Apple controls the hardware and has to supply the drivers.
Nobody does OpenGL development for Windows. Even with up-to-date video card drivers, it's buggy and slow compared to DirectX. But yet game developers don't complain about having to write games for Microsoft's proprietary API.
And oh look... a quick Google search shows that there's a technology called MoltenVK to allow developers to use Vulkan (the cross-platform Metal alternative) on top of Metal. So the whining game developers who are happy to use proprietary APIs from Microsoft, but not Apple, are free to keep using cross-platform technologies.
Well, DirectX has been out for years.
i recall back in the day that ID Software (Doom and Quake) and Epic (Unreal) were once staunch supporters of OpenGL.
Apple was once too.
Didn't John Carmack essentially develop OpenGL? Or was at least pivotal in porting it to the Mac OS?
Pivotal in porting. John would make an amazing acquihire for Apple. He can develop games and is a visionary.
I have not found any WWDC sessions on moving to Metal for OpenCL developers. I wonder why that is? If Apple really cares about games, they should either port Metal to Windows and Android (fat chance) or purchase one of the major game development engines like Unity or Unreal. That way developers could code for any platform and let their game engine handle the dirty work.
It's funny that apple thinks they can push game developers to do anything when the have 0 leverage. Even Microsoft has a hard time convincing game developers to use DX12 and Windows is the most used OS for PC gaming.
I am not sure people realize that Microsoft does not support OpenGL either. Out of the box windows only supports only an ancient version of OpenGL -v1.2. Every graphics card manufacturer for windows has to ship their own up to date OpenGL drivers. The problem on macOS is that Apple controls the hardware and has to supply the drivers.
Nobody does OpenGL development for Windows. Even with up-to-date video card drivers, it's buggy and slow compared to DirectX. But yet game developers don't complain about having to write games for Microsoft's proprietary API.
And oh look... a quick Google search shows that there's a technology called MoltenVK to allow developers to use Vulkan (the cross-platform Metal alternative) on top of Metal. So the whining game developers who are happy to use proprietary APIs from Microsoft, but not Apple, are free to keep using cross-platform technologies.
Yeah let's pretend that DirectX is not the standard for PC gaming development, let's pretend apple has the same leverage Microsoft has.
"I'm not going to spend any time on Metal because Macs are a pretty small percentage of the market, and really probably not worth it even now," suggests Austin. “ just do it because I try to support fans if I can."
He’s probably right. Apple is not into gaming, never has been, probably never will be. Those claiming this action will kill Apple gaming and the Mac along with it are just pissing into the wind. If that were true the Mac would have been dead a decade ago. The PC gaming market is not as big as the enthusiasts would have you believe.
Well none the less it's bigger than Apple's entire computer market. And it's still growing.
Apple Computer ceased to exist a long time ago, it's now primarily a smartphone/services company. Mac division accounts for what to shareholdsr profits?? Anyone complaining about now having enough GPU in a Mac laptop doesn't seem to understand that on the PC side, you have limitations even the thickest turbo fan laptop cannot supply. If you need high-end GPU, PC or Mac (or iMac bc it's basically a laptop tipped on it's side, lol) you get an eGPU as shown here on briefeats:
Gamer developers will moan, Apple don't care>>>they know those who want to make money off the Apple product line will develope whatever games they can for use on iOS devices, because there are 10X++ as many of these out there. Next gen of iphone will have even more powerful cpu/gpu combo...and so on. Prob make more money of doing the abomination of yearly subscriptions @the app store to these games, just like Adobe/M$ and now Apple & others will embrace. It's all about $$$
developing on metal for MacOS-only might not make financial sense but surely developing on Metal opens up easy transition/access to Apple TV and iOS platforms which can be very lucrative. It entirely depends on the company's ultimate aims I guess.
Inversely the success of gaming on iOS should transition to the rise of gaming on Apple TV (should Apple see sense to allow it and push it big time) and MacOS devices. Those developers that work with Metal now would be in pole position to capitalise, the others will forever play catch-up.
developing on metal for MacOS-only might not make financial sense but surely developing on Metal opens up easy transition/access to Apple TV and iOS platforms which can be very lucrative. It entirely depends on the company's ultimate aims I guess.
Inversely the success of gaming on iOS should transition to the rise of gaming on Apple TV (should Apple see sense to allow it and push it big time) and MacOS devices. Those developers that work with Metal now would be in pole position to capitalise, the others will forever play catch-up.
From experience I can assure you that developing for Apple TV is far from lucrative. From my perspective most app devs are scratching their heads, wondering what Apple is up to next. Big screen game devs doesn't care anymore.
Isn't OpenGL basically dead at this point anyway? I thought Vulkan was the anointed successor as the standard cross-platform graphics API? And Apple has never supported Vulkan, and their OpenGL support has been behind the times for ages, so it's hard to see how any developer is going to have any increased effect from this new decision - they've been restricted from using the newer OpenGL/Vulkan API for ages anyway.
I'm now sure how comprehensive MoltenVK is, but if it is effective in mapping Vulkan to Metal, then surely that does a lot of the heavy lifting in porting a title to Metal?
I have not found any WWDC sessions on moving to Metal for OpenCL developers. I wonder why that is? If Apple really cares about games, they should either port Metal to Windows and Android (fat chance) or purchase one of the major game development engines like Unity or Unreal. That way developers could code for any platform and let their game engine handle the dirty work.
When has Apple ever cared about gaming on the Mac? I've been using Macs since 1998 and Apple has never even remotely tried to make gaming successful on the Mac.
I am not sure people realize that Microsoft does not support OpenGL either. Out of the box windows only supports only an ancient version of OpenGL -v1.2. Every graphics card manufacturer for windows has to ship their own up to date OpenGL drivers. The problem on macOS is that Apple controls the hardware and has to supply the drivers.
Nobody does OpenGL development for Windows. Even with up-to-date video card drivers, it's buggy and slow compared to DirectX. But yet game developers don't complain about having to write games for Microsoft's proprietary API.
And oh look... a quick Google search shows that there's a technology called MoltenVK to allow developers to use Vulkan (the cross-platform Metal alternative) on top of Metal. So the whining game developers who are happy to use proprietary APIs from Microsoft, but not Apple, are free to keep using cross-platform technologies.
Yeah let's pretend that DirectX is not the standard for PC gaming development, let's pretend apple has the same leverage Microsoft has.
I never said it wasn't. I just said that no one seems to complain about using a proprietary API when it comes from Microsoft, yet they do when it comes from Apple. Seems hypocritical if you ask me.
Anyone complaining about now having enough GPU in a Mac laptop doesn't seem to understand that on the PC side, you have limitations even the thickest turbo fan laptop cannot supply. If you need high-end GPU, PC or Mac (or iMac bc it's basically a laptop tipped on it's side, lol) you get an eGPU.
The mobile Nvidia 1080 is effectively the same performance as the desktop 1080, which is about equivalent to the top end iMac Pro's Vega 64.
There are pro PC laptops with dual mobile 1080s onboard, no eGPU necessary. It will be larger, and heavier than an Apple product, but not larger or heavier or more cumbersome than a Macbook Pro, plus a pair of eGPU cases.
This is why Apple needs to acquire super talented studios and create 1st party Metal games. Let these developers complain while Apple eats their lunch. Mac users have more money, the games are missing though.
The thing is, the hardcore gamers are in the 14-24 year old range. Kids who have a ton of free time on their hands and are highly motivated to create a custom designed gaming rig. Rather than spending 2-3k on a Mac which isn't configurable, they'd rather spend that money (and inordinate amounts of time) piecing together the perfect gaming computer from components. Apple has no interest in what is essentially the computer parts market.
The typical Mac buyer is someone who doesn't care about building a computer at all. Someone who wants a computer which is as easy to use as possible, which then frees up their time to do the things they really want/need to do with a computer. Typically older professionals who simply don't have the copious amounts of free time that the hardcore gamers do and/or people who have a life outside of computers. They may have more money, but they're not interested in spending it on games which they'd never have time to play.
How about Apple TV? The best streaming box capable of 4k Dolby Vision graphics on par with Switch?....
Seriously why is Apple dragging their feet in gaming?
And this is where you've hit the nail on the head. Many of the above-mentioned professionals do have families and would happily spend money on casual games which are easy to setup and play for short periods of time. Games which don't require hours and hours of configuration and learning/exploring like many of the hardcore PC gaming titles. Essentially the market that Nintendo now occupies. I think Apple could do very well in this market if they invested the effort in making the Apple TV a better casual gaming system.
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How about Apple TV? The best streaming box capable of 4k Dolby Vision graphics on par with Switch?....
Seriously why is Apple dragging their feet in gaming?
The Mac is riding on Windows' coattails for a lot of these sorts of niche, heavy-lifting apps. We get a version, because we're low marginal cost. Once that changes these developers aren't going to re-tool for Metal, they're just going to dump macOS.
Would these products be better with Metal? No doubt, but that assumes that a Metal version is an option on the table.
If Apple really cares about games, they should either port Metal to Windows and Android (fat chance) or purchase one of the major game development engines like Unity or Unreal. That way developers could code for any platform and let their game engine handle the dirty work.
Apple Computer ceased to exist a long time ago, it's now primarily a smartphone/services company. Mac division accounts for what to shareholdsr profits?? Anyone complaining about now having enough GPU in a Mac laptop doesn't seem to understand that on the PC side, you have limitations even the thickest turbo fan laptop cannot supply. If you need high-end GPU, PC or Mac (or iMac bc it's basically a laptop tipped on it's side, lol) you get an eGPU as shown here on briefeats:
http://barefeats.com/macbook_pro_13in_egpu.html plug in a GTX 1080 Ti using MacVidCards. modified cards n you're good to go at little over 1/2 the price of the mighty Titan xp.
Gamer developers will moan, Apple don't care>>>they know those who want to make money off the Apple product line will develope whatever games they can for use on iOS devices, because there are 10X++ as many of these out there. Next gen of iphone will have even more powerful cpu/gpu combo...and so on. Prob make more money of doing the abomination of yearly subscriptions @the app store to these games, just like Adobe/M$ and now Apple & others will embrace. It's all about $$$
Inversely the success of gaming on iOS should transition to the rise of gaming on Apple TV (should Apple see sense to allow it and push it big time) and MacOS devices. Those developers that work with Metal now would be in pole position to capitalise, the others will forever play catch-up.
I'm now sure how comprehensive MoltenVK is, but if it is effective in mapping Vulkan to Metal, then surely that does a lot of the heavy lifting in porting a title to Metal?
There are pro PC laptops with dual mobile 1080s onboard, no eGPU necessary. It will be larger, and heavier than an Apple product, but not larger or heavier or more cumbersome than a Macbook Pro, plus a pair of eGPU cases.
The thing is, the hardcore gamers are in the 14-24 year old range. Kids who have a ton of free time on their hands and are highly motivated to create a custom designed gaming rig. Rather than spending 2-3k on a Mac which isn't configurable, they'd rather spend that money (and inordinate amounts of time) piecing together the perfect gaming computer from components. Apple has no interest in what is essentially the computer parts market.
The typical Mac buyer is someone who doesn't care about building a computer at all. Someone who wants a computer which is as easy to use as possible, which then frees up their time to do the things they really want/need to do with a computer. Typically older professionals who simply don't have the copious amounts of free time that the hardcore gamers do and/or people who have a life outside of computers.
And this is where you've hit the nail on the head. Many of the above-mentioned professionals do have families and would happily spend money on casual games which are easy to setup and play for short periods of time. Games which don't require hours and hours of configuration and learning/exploring like many of the hardcore PC gaming titles. Essentially the market that Nintendo now occupies. I think Apple could do very well in this market if they invested the effort in making the Apple TV a better casual gaming system.