Given the present administration in Wisconsin, colour me unsurprised to hear that it's going to cost taxpayers more than expected. A whole lot of lost state revenue for very few jobs. For the record, I don't like it when Apple gets sweetheart deals like this for its server farms (which also come with single-digit numbers of jobs once the construction is completed) either, though at least Apple doesn't add an additional burden to the energy grid.
Somehow 9to5mac was able to write its version of this story without mentioning Apple. :-)
They did in their original article, noting that the plant would be producing large panels that Apple would be unlikely to need. In this most recent one they didn't make the connection to the now-smaller panel production plans being reported, panels that Apple might well have a use for which AI did pick up on. Seems appropriate to mention.
Obviously I didn't read the original article so, thanks for the update. Your extra commentary about what Apple might do wasn't necessary.
Anyone?? Certainly someone must be able to explain how this is risky, let alone "riskier" than a previous deal. Or perhaps the author wouldn't mind re-categorizing the article as an editorial.
My original post, for reference:
Maybe someone can help me out here. How is 3B in incentives/tax
credits a huge risk when a foreign company will be investing 10B in the
plant? Esp when so much of those incentives go towards improving the
infrastructure? To all the Nervous Nellies in this thread.. is foxconn
going to take the improved roads and infrastructure with them when they
abandon these *doomed* plants in 5 years? Are they going to dismantle
the plants piecemeal and ship them back across the Pacific? Are they
going to retrospectively confiscate the wages that were paid to the
workers that built the plants, that built the infrastructure, or that
worked in the plants themselves?
Foxconn
invests 10B.. and a large part of 3B incentives are being used to
improve the state's infrastructure, jobs are created, economy is
stimulated.. how is this risky, again??
I've
never been a big fan of math, but I believe 10-3=7, which means there is
a 7B risk for Foxconn, and a substantial investment in the state.
Sounds like a pretty damn good deal to me, particularity since much of
that 3B in incentives are going directly into improving the state.
For both protectionist tariffs and sweet heart deals providing huge incentives to corporations:
American industrial might was built without either.
But it died with both trying to prop it up.
Then, after it died "Globalization" was pushed.
Before we return back to failed policies of the past we should try to understand why those policies failed previously. But, unfortunately any such discussion would, of course, get hijacked with partisan politics and ideology... So, its much easier and more comforting to pretend like we're doing something, going somewhere while we run in place...
Elected officials must have marketable "achievements" under their belt in order to get re-elected. Being able to claim they "created jobs" is the golden goose of such achievements. The big corporations know this and thus have the officials over a barrel. They get outrageous and often unworkable concessions with little or no risk to their bottom line. Also, not everyone is a genius, not everyone has outstanding bullshit detectors, not everyone is suspicious by nature, so city and state leaders often get taken in by the sketchy promises, even if they aren't solely focussed on re-election. The dog-and-pony shows put on by these huge corporations are often elaborate, sophisticated and convincing.
Austin lost approx. $10 million (in waived fees and deferred construction costs) around 2001, because Intel abandoned a $65 million building downtown. Intel left the structure half finished for six years before blowing it up to make way for a new Federal Courts building. Sports teams all over the country have used public money to build stadiums, even when team owners were worth billions and could have easily self-funded. Many, many of these deals are one sided and help people of means and power and screw everyone else. There are many stories like this from all over the country now that competing to make the best bribe has become the norm.
Sometimes, though, things work out differently. Fort Worth Alliance Airport was built with cooperation between the FAA, City of Ft. Worth and Ross Perot Jr.'s company Hillwood Development. By any metric it has been immensely successful and used large amounts of public money to get done. It created more than 37,000 jobs and has pumped over $50 billion cumulatively into the local economy. In this case the FAA proposed the project to Perot & Co. and later Fort Worth was brought in and that is the key difference. It truly was an alliance between various entities instead of a one-sided, pseudo-scam perpetrated by an egomaniacal billionaire. Maybe Alliance should be used as a template for future private sector/public sector projects. Of course FoxCon would not have been interested in such an arrangement since they would not have been able to take and hold the upper hand.
See I'm against this kind of crap. As in special deals to try and get a company to come and build in your state and/or city. As it's just not fair in general. Everyone should be paying the same taxes. have the same costs. You know how you get businesses to come to you, you just have a overall lower tax rate for everyone!!! More Jobs means more tax money coming in anyway. More jobs also get more people off of government handouts.
You keep raising taxes and businesses flee and then the people right along with it. Then what do these idiots do? Well less money coming in, Hey, lets raise taxes some more!!! It's a endless cycle. If they could, they'd tax you 100% of the money everyone makes and it still wold never be enough.
I'm all for Foxconn building a factory anywhere it wants to in the U.S. so long as it's not getting a better deal than everyone else already there. You know, if you lower tax rates, maybe other company's besides Foxconn would want to go there. So not all your eggs in in 1 basket (Foxconn).
Years back US Air (now part of American) was located in Pittsburgh where it was founded and used the Pittsburgh airport as its hub. Soon after they hounded the government to build them a nice new airport -- which it did.
And that airport was state the art and really cool. In addition to all its modern tech features they guaranteed US Air exclusive control of 90% of the gates in order to lock out competition from other airlines.
So, after Pittsburgh spent billions on them and restricted their competition, what did US AIr do? They moved to Charlotte and left Pittsburgh high and dry...
And, for their trouble, what did local tax payers get? Debt and poor air service.
Added: Perhaps the moral is the same as what was part of the reason for the Great Recession: Banks provided cheap mortgages to unscrupulous borrowers with little or no down payment required. Then, since the borrowers had no skin in the game, as soon as interest rates made they mortgage unfavorable, they just packed up and left.
... So, will FoxConn be required to put some of its skin in the game and, is it enough?
To be fair, the BANKS were forced by Government to get people houses!!! Even though they couldn't afford them and the banks would have never given them a loan in the first place. That was because of DEMOCRATS!!!! Everyone should own a home!!! Which is why there was a huge housing bubble just waiting to crash. Everyone getting houses. Prices go up and up and up, and then BAM. It's one of the reasons I didn't buy a house. I look around at the prices for a small house and think it's insane. I'm not paying that. I got my house 5 years ago after the crash where prices made a whole lot more sense. Now it's worth 100K or more than what I paid as the market has gone back up quite a bit and the improvements I've done. <br><br> On the other hand, my Dad lost his job and then ended up losing his House, One of my brothers was upside down on his house and lost it. My other brother was also upside down on his house, and he threatened the bank that he would move, and they worked out a deal and so he's still in it. <br><br> I don't think any special deal should be made to get Foxconn. It's unfair to everyone else already there paying the taxes they do. Want to attract businesses, low your overall Tax rate for everyone. See Government keeps raising Taxes up. Businesses start to leave. Then people start to leave. Less money coming in. More crap Government wants to waste money on. Raises taxes more. Which in turn drives more businesses away and more people. Some stay and go on Wel-Fair and other government benefits. The cycle goes on, over and over and jobs flee to China. Between High taxes, Unions driving a company right out of businesses. High Power costs. Over-Regulation, etc. Look how much a city is willing to hand out now to get a company like Foxconn to build there!!! It's not a good deal for taxpayers as they're on the hook if they pull out and leave a few years later as it's just not working out. In the end, I think there would be fewer jobs created in the end. Because they'll need a lot of Robots to stay competitive.
Well of course... if you're looking at a negotiation between a massive, well run corporation that probably has a army of wicked sharp negotiators vs. a quasi-second world level state with a bunch of bozo C-class (maybe a B player at the top) bureaucrats who do you think will absolutely clean up in the deal... with citizens left holding the bag in the long term
Years back US Air (now part of American) was located in Pittsburgh where it was founded and used the Pittsburgh airport as its hub. Soon after they hounded the government to build them a nice new airport -- which it did.
And that airport was state the art and really cool. In addition to all its modern tech features they guaranteed US Air exclusive control of 90% of the gates in order to lock out competition from other airlines.
So, after Pittsburgh spent billions on them and restricted their competition, what did US AIr do? They moved to Charlotte and left Pittsburgh high and dry...
And, for their trouble, what did local tax payers get? Debt and poor air service.
Added: Perhaps the moral is the same as what was part of the reason for the Great Recession: Banks provided cheap mortgages to unscrupulous borrowers with little or no down payment required. Then, since the borrowers had no skin in the game, as soon as interest rates made they mortgage unfavorable, they just packed up and left.
... So, will FoxConn be required to put some of its skin in the game and, is it enough?
To be fair, the BANKS were forced by Government to get people houses!!! Even though they couldn't afford them and the banks would have never given them a loan in the first place. That was because of DEMOCRATS!!!! Everyone should own a home!!! Which is why there was a huge housing bubble just waiting to crash. Everyone getting houses. Prices go up and up and up, and then BAM. It's one of the reasons I didn't buy a house. I look around at the prices for a small house and think it's insane. I'm not paying that. I got my house 5 years ago after the crash where prices made a whole lot more sense. Now it's worth 100K or more than what I paid as the market has gone back up quite a bit and the improvements I've done. <br><br> ....
Excellent summary of the lies and propaganda the criminals used to cover their tracks. Good job!
Anyone?? Certainly someone must be able to explain how this is risky, let alone "riskier" than a previous deal. Or perhaps the author wouldn't mind re-categorizing the article as an editorial.
My original post, for reference:
Maybe someone can help me out here. How is 3B in incentives/tax
credits a huge risk when a foreign company will be investing 10B in the
plant? Esp when so much of those incentives go towards improving the
infrastructure? To all the Nervous Nellies in this thread.. is foxconn
going to take the improved roads and infrastructure with them when they
abandon these *doomed* plants in 5 years? Are they going to dismantle
the plants piecemeal and ship them back across the Pacific? Are they
going to retrospectively confiscate the wages that were paid to the
workers that built the plants, that built the infrastructure, or that
worked in the plants themselves?
Foxconn
invests 10B.. and a large part of 3B incentives are being used to
improve the state's infrastructure, jobs are created, economy is
stimulated.. how is this risky, again??
I've
never been a big fan of math, but I believe 10-3=7, which means there is
a 7B risk for Foxconn, and a substantial investment in the state.
Sounds like a pretty damn good deal to me, particularity since much of
that 3B in incentives are going directly into improving the state.
The piece isn't an editorial, nor was it written by me. However, here's what I think about it:
"Improving the state" to the tune of say $1B will be focused in about a 100 square mile area. Water and power improvements will be limited to the plant, and its immediate surroundings. Related, ask Western MA residents how they feel about their taxes funding the Boston area for the last three decades, as they watch where they live fall farther and farther into blight from disregard.
Ask other parts of Wisconsin how they feel about the deal, or how they'll feel about it when the state shifts funding priorities around. Foxconn has no obligation to provide 18,000 jobs -- and it will likely be far less.
Foxconn may or may not be taking a bigger risk -- but that is completely irrelevant. It doesn't mean that Wisconsin's stake in the deal isn't risky, and at no point when the bill keeps climbing will the state say to taxpayers "oh, hey, my bad" when they raise taxes to the entire state. The break-even point for Wisconsin is in about 2032 according to Foxconn, and as late as 2040 according to some other analysts. And, that's assuming that Foxconn gets all the orders that they expect, with the plant running at 100% nearly constantly.
I'm all for improving US manufacturing. But, this isn't the way to do it. It's a good deal for about 100 square miles. It's a terrible deal for everybody else in Wisconsin -- meaning, most of the residents.
I can see the incentives provided by individual U.S. states that are used to lure businesses away from other states morphing into the same protectionist policies the U.S. is using to attack its former allies...
Where, say, Pennsylvania imposes a tariff on dairy products from Ohio in order to protect the Pennsylvania dairy industry... It's an easy, populist sell...
For both protectionist tariffs and sweet heart deals providing huge incentives to corporations:
American industrial might was built without either.
But it died with both trying to prop it up.
Then, after it died "Globalization" was pushed.
Before we return back to failed policies of the past we should try to understand why those policies failed previously. But, unfortunately any such discussion would, of course, get hijacked with partisan politics and ideology... So, its much easier and more comforting to pretend like we're doing something, going somewhere while we run in place...
We may be screwed...
Interested to hear what others perceive as "globalization" and why it is viewed as a bad thing. When China first opened up to western trade in the early 80s the company I worked for was ecstatic because it thought it could suddenly sell more of its products in China. Sure, none of the products were specifically tailored, much less priced, to meet the Chinese market demands and we had no presence in China, we just expected to sell more to a huge new population of buyers. What could be wrong with that? Of course it flopped. Selling in foreign markets requires presence in foreign markets including investment in capital and infrastructure. It has to be a two-way street. Companies that have successfully operated globally by investing in capital, people, and infrastructure in the countries they sell in are doing well and are adding value to both sides. Examples include BMW, Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda setting up manufacturing operations in the US. Now add Foxconn to the list. To me, those are examples of globalization working as it should for mutual benefit. I view this two-way globalization pattern distinctly and differently than "offshoring" and "outsourcing" practices that are all about exploiting margins or costs in one or more facets of a manufacturing operation. Globalization and offshoring/outsourcing are not the same. Globalization is intended to create new markets by establishing presence in the target markets. Offshoring and outsourcing (at national or global scale) is all about exploitation. At least this is how I've personally seen it play out over the past 30 years.
Wisconsin does not have 13,000 people to fill the jobs. It doesn’t have the transportation infrastructure to get 13,000 people to the Foxconn plant.
Finally, Foxconn reps specifically stated that this plant would not be supplying anything to Apple. iPhone and iPad components will not be manufactured at this plant.
As a wisconsin taxpayer, I guarantee my taxes will going to this corporate wellfare debacle.
Wisconsin does not have 13,000 people to fill the jobs. It doesn’t have the transportation infrastructure to get 13,000 people to the Foxconn plant.
Finally, Foxconn reps specifically stated that this plant would not be supplying anything to Apple. iPhone and iPad components will not be manufactured at this plant.
As a wisconsin taxpayer, I guarantee my taxes will going to this corporate wellfare debacle.
If there are that few people to fill the positions, you should get your resume to them immediately. You could set your own salary.
Comments
Austin lost approx. $10 million (in waived fees and deferred construction costs) around 2001, because Intel abandoned a $65 million building downtown. Intel left the structure half finished for six years before blowing it up to make way for a new Federal Courts building. Sports teams all over the country have used public money to build stadiums, even when team owners were worth billions and could have easily self-funded. Many, many of these deals are one sided and help people of means and power and screw everyone else. There are many stories like this from all over the country now that competing to make the best bribe has become the norm.
Sometimes, though, things work out differently. Fort Worth Alliance Airport was built with cooperation between the FAA, City of Ft. Worth and Ross Perot Jr.'s company Hillwood Development. By any metric it has been immensely successful and used large amounts of public money to get done. It created more than 37,000 jobs and has pumped over $50 billion cumulatively into the local economy. In this case the FAA proposed the project to Perot & Co. and later Fort Worth was brought in and that is the key difference. It truly was an alliance between various entities instead of a one-sided, pseudo-scam perpetrated by an egomaniacal billionaire. Maybe Alliance should be used as a template for future private sector/public sector projects. Of course FoxCon would not have been interested in such an arrangement since they would not have been able to take and hold the upper hand.
You keep raising taxes and businesses flee and then the people right along with it. Then what do these idiots do? Well less money coming in, Hey, lets raise taxes some more!!! It's a endless cycle. If they could, they'd tax you 100% of the money everyone makes and it still wold never be enough.
I'm all for Foxconn building a factory anywhere it wants to in the U.S. so long as it's not getting a better deal than everyone else already there. You know, if you lower tax rates, maybe other company's besides Foxconn would want to go there. So not all your eggs in in 1 basket (Foxconn).
To be fair, the BANKS were forced by Government to get people houses!!! Even though they couldn't afford them and the banks would have never given them a loan in the first place. That was because of DEMOCRATS!!!! Everyone should own a home!!! Which is why there was a huge housing bubble just waiting to crash. Everyone getting houses. Prices go up and up and up, and then BAM. It's one of the reasons I didn't buy a house. I look around at the prices for a small house and think it's insane. I'm not paying that.
I got my house 5 years ago after the crash where prices made a whole lot more sense. Now it's worth 100K or more than what I paid as the market has gone back up quite a bit and the improvements I've done.
<br><br>
On the other hand, my Dad lost his job and then ended up losing his House, One of my brothers was upside down on his house and lost it. My other brother was also upside down on his house, and he threatened the bank that he would move, and they worked out a deal and so he's still in it.
<br><br>
I don't think any special deal should be made to get Foxconn. It's unfair to everyone else already there paying the taxes they do. Want to attract businesses, low your overall Tax rate for everyone. See Government keeps raising Taxes up. Businesses start to leave. Then people start to leave. Less money coming in. More crap Government wants to waste money on. Raises taxes more. Which in turn drives more businesses away and more people. Some stay and go on Wel-Fair and other government benefits. The cycle goes on, over and over and jobs flee to China. Between High taxes, Unions driving a company right out of businesses. High Power costs. Over-Regulation, etc. Look how much a city is willing to hand out now to get a company like Foxconn to build there!!! It's not a good deal for taxpayers as they're on the hook if they pull out and leave a few years later as it's just not working out. In the end, I think there would be fewer jobs created in the end. Because they'll need a lot of Robots to stay competitive.
Ask other parts of Wisconsin how they feel about the deal, or how they'll feel about it when the state shifts funding priorities around. Foxconn has no obligation to provide 18,000 jobs -- and it will likely be far less.
However, if the real subject of this thread is tax scams I’ve got a beauty: The California High-Speed Rail system. Now THAT is a boondoggle!
It's amazing how short-sighted one can be if money is pouring into one's personal bank account.
Finally, Foxconn reps specifically stated that this plant would not be supplying anything to Apple. iPhone and iPad components will not be manufactured at this plant.
As a wisconsin taxpayer, I guarantee my taxes will going to this corporate wellfare debacle.