Every iPhone user is tied to Saudi business interests, like it or not

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 83
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,553administrator
    matthewk said:
    matthewk said:
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    Based on what? 

    The guy had an American green card, and wrote for the Washington Post. It doesn't get much more "American journalist" than that.
    Green Card? This is inaccurate. 
    What's your agenda here? The O-1 versus EB-1 "green card" have the same legal protections. I apologize for generalizing the term. I have struck out my own imprecise language in my comments and corrected the specific term, but it doesn't change the protections one iota.
    Simply accuracy. Working here, and having the same protections, doesn't make to "American". Saying so is inaccurate.
    The text stays. Sorry you don't like it.
  • Reply 22 of 83
    Respect your position, however while in China on a similar Visa, I am entitled to similar protections. Nobody would assume I am Chinese. The hair isn't as fine as you suggest in my opinion. Thank you for letting us have the discussion. 
    matthewk said:
    There is a significant error in this article. It refers to the journalist as "an American journalist". He is not an "American", he is a Saudi born citizen of Saudi Arabia, who self-imposed his own exile a very short time ago (September 2017). He was here on an "O Visa" sponsored by the Washington Post. He had not been in the country long enough to apply for citizenship nor had he applied for permanent residency. He in no way indicated that he was interested in becoming an American, and legally he absolutely was not an American by any sense of the word. 

    It would be great if you would correct your article. 


    This is a very fine hair to split. I understand what you are saying, but with the green card O-1 he is entitled to all of the legal protections of a citizen.

    In this case, the term "American" is not referring to his nationality, but the fact that he worked for the Post. We address his citizen status a few paragraphs in.
    edited October 2018 tylersdadrandominternetpersonSpamSandwich
  • Reply 23 of 83
    “But, it won't change the fact that just four months ago Apple may very well have hosted a murderer at Apple Park.”

    This is a disingenuous statement because it carries the suggestion that Apple knowingly hosted a murderer.  Four months ago this murder hadn’t taken place and would have been pure speculation to have predicted.  

    On the general topic, the article touches on the fact that it’s really on shoulders of government to determine sanctions and other actions against bad state agents.  While I agree that Apple, or any ethical business should step away from dealing directly with known bad actors, I think it’s a stretch to suggest Apple, or any other business, should take steps to hold their products back from a country in such a situation we’re witnessing with this murder.  It’s simply not appropriate to condemn an entire populous based upon the actions of its rulers.  I’d say that Apple should maybe hold back on adding any company-owned Apple stores and maybe also refuse to partner with local firms, and maybe also pull out of the investment fund if the company wants to take that stand.  But I’d stop short of suggesting Apple should not make its products available to distribution and retail outlets in the country.  Let the government determine whether there should be sanctions that would prevent product sales.  
    That line bothered me, too.  While not exactly the same, my parents had friends with a couple of sons when I was younger. We hosted them at our house quite a bit and vice versa. I became good friends with the younger son and we did a lot together for years and years. The older son went to college, got married, became a teacher and child pornographer (using his very young students). It's despicable and I'm unhappy to even have known him, though I haven't seen him in more than 20 years.  He was found guilty in Maine and is serving his time in Massachusetts.  What does that say about my parents having invited him into their home? I'd say nothing.

    But there was definitely a child pornographer in Maine. Should Apple closes their stores in Maine and stop selling products in Maine because they, assumedly, disagree with or have a corporate culture that is against child pornography?

    (Side note/off topic: while typing I accidentally typed "pornograhper". I got the red dotted underline showing I had a spelling error but not a suggestion for a correct spelling. However, if I type "cinematograhper" I get the underline AND a suggestion for correct spelling. So weird.)
    randominternetpersonsacto joe
  • Reply 24 of 83
    Hard to avoid Saudi money, regardless of Saudi faction. They are invested in everything. I'd still rather use Apple than Google.
    sacto joe
  • Reply 25 of 83
    matthewk said:
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    Based on what? 

    The guy had an American green card, and wrote for the Washington Post. It doesn't get much more "American journalist" than that.
    Green Card? This is inaccurate. 

    Green Card shmeen card! We are talking about a journalist for the Washington Post. He was a resident of the US. His children are US citizens for crying out loud! I know Trump likes to call the Post fake news...but the free press is what sets us apart from places like Saudi Arabia. Did anyone ever think that MBS ordered this hit on Khashoggi cause he felt emboldened by Trumps disdain for the free press, and felt there would be no reprisal? It sickens & saddens me that some people dismiss this murder of a journalist so nonchalantly. Trump will be long gone and our free press will endure. But he is doing serious damage to our institutions world wide by demonizing the free press while praising thugs like Putin, MBS & others. Trump said Putin & MBS “strongly” denied any wrong doing...so he instantly believes them. Ugh. Makes me sad for America.
    edited October 2018 Solimac_dogradarthekat
  • Reply 26 of 83
    sdw2001 said:
    While I appreciate the in-depth editorial and examination of Apple's ties to the Saudis, I object to headline and the premise.  Suggesting I am tied to Saudi Arabia because I use an iPhone is absurd on its face.  By that measure, every person in the United States is tied to Saudi Arabia in some way, because American companies do business with them.  We all use Middle East oil, despite our newfound energy production boom.  It's just an inflammatory concept.  I'd much rather have a similar editorial called Apple's Complex Relationship with Saudi Arabia (and what it means for Apple customers).   
    Exactly my thoughts. Thank you!

    The same could be said about anything you buy being made in China and the human rights abuses they are accused of. 

    Or we could be guilty of murder by buying anything from Israel because of issues in Gaza and the West Bank. 

    Its not that simple. We need to learn the truth about what happened before we can take any punitive measures. 

    dick applebaumrandominternetperson
  • Reply 27 of 83
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    Based on what? 

    The guy had an American green card O-1, and wrote for the Washington Post. It doesn't get much more "American journalist" than that.
    it's actually does get more "American journalist" than that by actually being an american citizen - an O-1 visa is not citizenship and is only temporary...a more accurate description would've been to call him a Turkish journalist who wrote for an American news publication but it's not in the american media's best interest to do that as well as their deep need to attach themselves to a tragedy. But, regardless of what you want to call him, this was a disgusting act by the Saudi's that unfortunately will go unpunished. all they'll offer up is a "my bad" and will probably do it again in 6 months.
  • Reply 28 of 83
    wow, drop a little knowledge on someone and their panties bunch up to the point they have to delete your post...go ahead, do your thing...nothing I said was offense nor did drop insults or curse words. You made sure you said what you had to say and I guess that's all that matters.
  • Reply 29 of 83
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,518member
    dewme said:
    The root cause of many of the current problems in the region are traceable to the US installing a puppet government in Iran during the Cold War.
    It was actually a joint effort between the US and UK.  There's been a constant effort to gain influence and benefit from oil (and the related industries built off of oil revenue) in the Middle East by nearly all developed nations.  The cozying up of Western governments and corporations to brutal regimes in that area of the world is nothing new.  Today they'll be a friend and given the benefit of the doubt, tomorrow they might be the evil empire so that the next Western friendly dictator can be groomed for power.  But regardless, we'll continue to blame Islamic extremists for it all.
    dewme
  • Reply 30 of 83
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,553administrator
    BxBorn said:
    wow, drop a little knowledge on someone and their panties bunch up to the point they have to delete your post...go ahead, do your thing...nothing I said was offense nor did drop insults or curse words. You made sure you said what you had to say and I guess that's all that matters.
    What are you talking about? No posts have been deleted in this thread at all.
    edited October 2018
  • Reply 31 of 83
    igorskyigorsky Posts: 650member
    Should every driver of a motor vehicle feel guilty because they are purchasing Saudi gasoline?  Where do you we draw the line on this?
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 32 of 83
    At the very least, the bloom is off the rose with MBS. He's not going to be on the corporate executive PR circuit anymore, that's for sure.I don't think it's realistic to expect Apple to entirely disengage from Saudi Arabia though, and it's also not necessarily the right move anyway. Make MBS the pariah. 
    sacto joe
  • Reply 33 of 83
    hexclockhexclock Posts: 1,076member
    Can we all stop pretending that America never carried out an assasination, or rigged an election? 
    mac_dogSpamSandwich
  • Reply 34 of 83
    This is an important topic to discuss. However, we do have rules for a reason. If you're going to participate in this thread, new user or old, read the commenting guidelines linked at the bottom of every page.

    While we're loosening the political restrictions for this thread, and this thread alone for now, this thread will be strictly moderated for other infractions. Be respectful.
    I am pleased that AI sees the value in open discussion of topics such as this!  To my mind, there are many rumors and not enough facts to reach a conclusion -- so discussion helps.

    I hope that AI will open similar articles/discussion threads of other current topics.  

    The migration caravan/convey situation is one topic I'd like to see discussed... There has to be a better way to resolve this than:

    • just allowing it to happen
    • hope that it doesn't happen
    • ignoring it

    Peoples' lives, well-being, rights and consciences are at stake!

    edited October 2018
  • Reply 35 of 83
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,553administrator
    This is an important topic to discuss. However, we do have rules for a reason. If you're going to participate in this thread, new user or old, read the commenting guidelines linked at the bottom of every page.

    While we're loosening the political restrictions for this thread, and this thread alone for now, this thread will be strictly moderated for other infractions. Be respectful.
    I am pleased that AI sees the value in open discussion of topics such as this!  To my mind, there are many rumors and not enough facts to reach a conclusion -- so discussion helps.

    I hope that AI will open similar articles/discussion threads of other current topics.  

    The migration caravan/convey situation is one topic I'd like to see discussed... There has to be a better way to resolve this than:

    • just allowing it to happen
    • hope that it doesn't happen
    • ignoring it

    Peoples' lives, well-being, rights and consciences are at stake!

    There is precisely zero connection to Apple in regards to the caravan, so I wouldn't expect an editorial about it.
    beowulfschmidt
  • Reply 36 of 83
    quinneyquinney Posts: 2,528member
    igorsky said:
    Should every driver of a motor vehicle feel guilty because they are purchasing Saudi gasoline?  Where do you we draw the line on this?
    Electric cars are available, so boycotting gasoline is a perfectly reasonable action. Think of whose pockets you are lining, while you are standing at the gas pump.
  • Reply 37 of 83
    Are you gonna stop driving if you know you’ve Saudi gas in it? 
  • Reply 38 of 83
    quinney said:
    igorsky said:
    Should every driver of a motor vehicle feel guilty because they are purchasing Saudi gasoline?  Where do you we draw the line on this?
    Electric cars are available, so boycotting gasoline is a perfectly reasonable action. Think of whose pockets you are lining, while you are standing at the gas pump.
    They're really close, but electric vehicles aren't ready for prime time. Until I can get a full day's travel in with one, they aren't ready. Additionally, how do I tow my RV with an electric vehicle? There are no electric trucks...yet. 
  • Reply 39 of 83
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,518member
    quinney said:
    igorsky said:
    Should every driver of a motor vehicle feel guilty because they are purchasing Saudi gasoline?  Where do you we draw the line on this?
    Electric cars are available, so boycotting gasoline is a perfectly reasonable action. Think of whose pockets you are lining, while you are standing at the gas pump.
    It's a good step, but oil is still used in many of the materials used to create electric cars (plastics).  Then fueling the factories which create parts from those materials, as well as recycling them.
    edited October 2018 radarthekat
  • Reply 40 of 83
    teonyc said:
    While I didn’t see it mentioned, there’s another underlying issue that affects Tim Cook. As an out gay man, I find it curious that he chums it up with someone who would have him executed just for his sexuality (note, not even behavior). It is simply enough to be accused of being gay to be arrested and executed in Saudi Arabia. I understand his fiduciary responsibility as CEO supersedes his personal issues in this context. But if the murder of a journalist is a red line, then why not this?
    Many Saudi's are pretty two-faced. There is the official face they use as the Guardians of Mecca and Medina. Then there is the face they often show in the west. That is very different than the other face. I've worked in Riyadh and Jeddah for extended periods. I had a few drinks with my former boss (a Saudi) in London a few years back. They are far more tolerant to people who do not agree with their beliefs when outside KSA. Business is Business. The older members of the house of Saud would not have done that but many of the younger ones have been educated in the west.

    Do you know what Taqiya is? Read to understand and do not ask these kind of questions.

    The relationships with that cultural part of world are tough. Iran is not a friendly partner. If you do not understand politics there then you need to study. Saudi Arabia oposes Iran and in fact there is some speculation they are on verge of potential military conflict. Iran has proven to be very dangerous option for the USA. Both of them follow social standards that are not compatible with western culture, but you cannot exist without relationship and in isolation. Saudi Arabia considers following Jordania path meaning they want to fix relationship with Israel and start recognizing it. So Saudis are on best path to become moderate country on that route (to be proven over years). You work with anybody who shows positive change, but keep awarness and do not dismiss other developments and cultural influences.
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