Every iPhone user is tied to Saudi business interests, like it or not

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 83
    (Side note/off topic: while typing I accidentally typed "pornograhper". I got the red dotted underline showing I had a spelling error but not a suggestion for a correct spelling. However, if I type "cinematograhper" I get the underline AND a suggestion for correct spelling. So weird.)
    That's presumably related to the (self-imposed) imperative that auto-correct will never suggest certain offensive words.  I don't remember if I read it here or another site, but Apple (and other tech companies) intentionally tweak their algorithms to minimize the possibilities for embarrassment (sometimes not very successfully).  I expect "pornographer" is on some list of cautionary words that spell-check and auto-correct refer to (and cinematographer is not the list).
  • Reply 42 of 83
    boltsfan17boltsfan17 Posts: 2,294member
    matthewk said:
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    Based on what? 

    The guy had an American green card, and wrote for the Washington Post. It doesn't get much more "American journalist" than that.
    Green Card? This is inaccurate. 
    What's your agenda here? The O-1 versus EB-1 "green card" have the same legal protections. I apologize for generalizing the term. I have struck out my own imprecise language in my comments and corrected the specific term, but it doesn't change the protections one iota.
    I'm going to disagree with you. He isn't remotely close to being an "American journalist." Sure, he has protections here while in the U.S. just as any other visitor, green card holder, etc, but overseas, that's a completely different story. Jamal Khashoggi's visa would have expired in less than 2 years. If he was in Paris for example and got arrested, the U.S. Consulate in France wouldn't be able to offer him any services because he's not an American citizen. It's just like what happened in Turkey. The reality is that has nothing to do with the U.S. Sure, he wrote for an American newspaper, but that doesn't make him an "American journalist." The guy is a Saudi journalist. Regardless of disagreeing with you, I don't think that takes anything away about what happened and how wrong I think it was what Saudi Arabia did to him. 
    tylersdadrandominternetpersonradarthekatSpamSandwich
  • Reply 43 of 83
    "So, Apple has invested in the same fund as the Saudis, and has hosted its crown prince at its headquarters. Beyond that, Apple has more of a tangential relationship with Saudi Arabia."

    In my opinion, all of that is very tangential.  I expect the Saudis have a bunch of money invested in Fidelity funds too.  So I invest in the same fund as murderers.  Four months ago, when Apple gave to the tour of their new HQ to the prince (and no doubt plenty of other international VIPs), he hadn't just been implicated in a brazen, high-profile assassination.  If the events had played out on a different timeline, I don't think Cook would be posing for a photo op with the Saudi's following the murder.

    I went to see Bill Cosby in a comedy performance many years ago.  My family has long been fans of the Buffalo Bills since before and during the time OJ Simpson played there.  I'm still a Bills fan, and I still refer to Cosby comedy routines from the 70s.  Does that make "tied" to rapist and murderers?  Would I take a selfie with either of those guys today?  Of course not.  Do I factor their status in my current actions?  Sure.  Am I tainted by my tangential relationship to them?  No.

    Fortunately, in each of these examples, as a private citizen it's not my job to bring criminals to justice.  Sometimes the system works (Cosby), sometimes it doesn't (OJ's murder trial), and sometimes we have to wait and see.  Likewise, I don't want/need Apple to take it upon itself to serve as a judge, jury, or executioner in this journalist assassination.  We can all lobby our elected and appointed officials to do the right thing, but the fact that I invest in Apple and buy Apple products doesn't motivate me to lobby Apple to insert itself into an event that has nothing to do with them.

    Count me among those who find the headline factually incorrect and counterproductive.
    sacto joeradarthekatSpamSandwich
  • Reply 44 of 83
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    The murder is more a culture issue than the power of a king. 
  • Reply 45 of 83
    No one is tied to Saudi Business interests, but corporate investments of a significant amount are required to be heard by the board and it's full leadership teams.

    Warren Buffett has over a $60 billion stake in Apple. The moment Saudi Arabia dumps more of its tech stocks, he'll buy it all up. The leverage Icahn attempted on Apple was destroyed when Warren stepped in and invested. Icahn quickly disappeared back into the dark. Buffett is on record that he wants to buy as much Apple as he can.

    A nation state like Saudi Arabia always gets addressed by executives who want to expand their market reach. And yes, you cannot convince a closed society to be more open if you aren't creating socioeconomic and political bridges.
    randominternetpersonradarthekat
  • Reply 46 of 83
    aylkaylk Posts: 54member
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    Why would you form an opinion without considering the facts?
  • Reply 47 of 83
    matthewk said:
    matthewk said:
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    Based on what? 

    The guy had an American green card, and wrote for the Washington Post. It doesn't get much more "American journalist" than that.
    Green Card? This is inaccurate. 
    What's your agenda here? The O-1 versus EB-1 "green card" have the same legal protections. I apologize for generalizing the term. I have struck out my own imprecise language in my comments and corrected the specific term, but it doesn't change the protections one iota.
    Simply accuracy. Working here, and having the same protections, doesn't make to "American". Saying so is inaccurate.
    Why does he have to have an "agenda"? Your proscribing one to him is, frankly, more suggestive that you have one....
  • Reply 48 of 83
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,799member
    maciekskontakt said:
    So Saudis are on best path to become moderate country on that route (to be proven over years). 
    When they become a constitutional monarchy with a prime minister and a parliament, let me know. So long as the royal family has ultimate power and if a narcissist evil prince or king is the ruler, any fake indications of moderation should probably be considered as actions for personal gain to solidify more power in the region.
    radarthekat
  • Reply 49 of 83
    quinney said:
    igorsky said:
    Should every driver of a motor vehicle feel guilty because they are purchasing Saudi gasoline?  Where do you we draw the line on this?
    Electric cars are available, so boycotting gasoline is a perfectly reasonable action. Think of whose pockets you are lining, while you are standing at the gas pump.
    Oh, please. Only the wealthy can afford electric cars. Get a grip.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 50 of 83
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,799member
    sacto joe said:
    Oh, please. Only the wealthy can afford electric cars. Get a grip.
    Oh please. Do the math. There are very reasonably priced electric cars on the market and the cost to drive one is probably less than $600 for 15,000 miles. It basically pays for itself after a few years compared to an equivalent gasoline powered car.
    edited October 2018
  • Reply 51 of 83
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,553administrator
    sacto joe said:
    matthewk said:
    matthewk said:
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    Based on what? 

    The guy had an American green card, and wrote for the Washington Post. It doesn't get much more "American journalist" than that.
    Green Card? This is inaccurate. 
    What's your agenda here? The O-1 versus EB-1 "green card" have the same legal protections. I apologize for generalizing the term. I have struck out my own imprecise language in my comments and corrected the specific term, but it doesn't change the protections one iota.
    Simply accuracy. Working here, and having the same protections, doesn't make to "American". Saying so is inaccurate.
    Why does he have to have an "agenda"? Your proscribing one to him is, frankly, more suggestive that you have one....
    Yeah, you'd be wrong, then.
    edited October 2018
  • Reply 52 of 83
    sirozhasirozha Posts: 801member
    Even though I condemn a brutal murder of any human being not directly involved in harming civilians, and so by this standard I condemn the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, it's important to note here that he was not a freedom-loving journalist who purely wanted to report truthfully on the current events. 

    Jamal Khashoggi met the same kind of death that he wished on others. He has always been an ardent supporter of 
    extremism (as extremism as perceived by the western standards). Starting from the recently surfaced picture of him standing with mujahideen holding a grenade launcher and continuing throughout his "journalistic" career, Jamal Khashoggi did not meet an Islamic extremist that he didn't love. He supported all major Muslim extremist movements in the Middle East, including Al Qaida, Hamas, their parent Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, Hizbollah, etc. He was virulently anti-Israel and wished for as well as spoke and wrote about his vision for the elimination of the State of Israel though an armed struggle. In other words, he had wished on the Israeli civilians the same death that he faced from the hands of the Saudi leadership. 

    Whether a critic of the current Saudi Crown Prince or not, Jamal Khashoggi was a promoter of extremism in the Middle East and throughout the world. On the other hand, MBS, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, showed himself as a progressive leader compared to other members of the Saudi Royal Court. In fact, in the past year or so, there have been several editorials published in governmental Saudi newspapers that spoke of Israel in a positive way, which had been unheard of in the entire history of the Arab world, starting from the times of the Muslim prophet. The very fact that MBS and Jared Kushner conder(ed) each other close friends is unprecedented, given that one is an heir apparent to the Saudi Royal Throne and the other is the most competent adviser in the US President's close circle while being an Orthodox Jew. The fact that a Saudi Royal - a Muslim Arab - and and Orthodox Jew so close to the US President can call each other close friends is unprecedented and has a potential of completely changing the dynamic of the Middle East and finally bring about peace to the Arab Israeli conflict. 

    It's hard to imagine that MBS wasn't involved in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, but IMHO, Mr. Khashoggi got to taste his own medicine in an extremely brutal way, which was the same way he wished death on Israelis. I do not condone the way he was handled at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, but it would have brought me nothing but satisfaction to have seen Mr. Khashoggi having his Green Card revoked for extremism and being thrown (alive) out of the United States. 

    MBS uses the same customary methods for eliminating his enemies as the methods used in Saudi Arabia to deal with the enemies. In this particular situation, the victim was not on the side of progress or peace but rather on the side of extremism. The method of dealing with the victim cannot be condoned, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that the victim was not innocent. Mr. Khashoggi was not an innocent man, and I'm not sure how he was able to receive permanent residency in the US. On the other hand, it has been rumored that the Saudis have been cooperating with Israelis under a common threat from Iran for many years now. Even though this could have been discounted as a rumor in the past, it has recently become obvious that the Israelis, the Saudis, and the Americans have been working for several years now on a comprehensive plan to bring about an end to the Arab Israeli conflict and to create peace in the Middle East as well as to form a coalition against the Iranian threats. This effort spearheaded by MBS must be supported, and the murder of an extremist at the hands of the Saudi hit team (most likely sent by MBS) should not derail a historic effort that is currently under way. If this opportunity is let pass, there may not be another chance for peace in the Middle East for centuries. 
    edited October 2018 tylersdaddrewys808hexclock
  • Reply 53 of 83
    bellsbells Posts: 140member
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    I think it fair to call the person an American journalist. He lived in the US and wrote for an American newspaper. The term American denotes who he worked for not his nationality.

    Further there is no definition of American Journalist that I’m aware of.

    You could also fairly refer to him as a Saudi Journalist. In that instance though you might assume he lived in Saudi Arabia and wrote for a foreign newspaper.

    As far as hating Americans, I wonder what makes you come to that conclusion. He lived here and received a check from an American company.

     
  • Reply 54 of 83
    bellsbells Posts: 140member
    matthewk said:
    matthewk said:
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    Based on what? 

    The guy had an American green card, and wrote for the Washington Post. It doesn't get much more "American journalist" than that.
    Green Card? This is inaccurate. 
    What's your agenda here? The O-1 versus EB-1 "green card" have the same legal protections. I apologize for generalizing the term. I have struck out my own imprecise language in my comments and corrected the specific term, but it doesn't change the protections one iota.
    Simply accuracy. Working here, and having the same protections, doesn't make to "American". Saying so is inaccurate.
    You can’t point to any official guidelines that dictate how to refer to him. He lived in the US and worked for an American newspaper. It is fair to refer to him as an American journalist. You could also fairly refer to him as a Saudi Journalist. However, I think most people would assume an American journalist lived in the us and at the very least wrote for an American paper.

    both your and the authors preferences are valid. The detail seems pretty minor in light of the story itself.


  • Reply 55 of 83
    sirozha said:
    Even though I condemn a brutal murder of any human being not directly involved in harming civilians, and so by this standard I condemn the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, it's important to note here that he was not a freedom-loving journalist who purely wanted to report truthfully on the current events. 

    Jamal Khashoggi met the same kind of death that he wished on others. He has always been an ardent supporter of extremism (as extremism as perceived by the western standards). Starting from the recently surfaced picture of him standing with mujahideen holding a grenade launcher and continuing throughout his "journalistic" career, Jamal Khashoggi did not meet an Islamic extremist that he didn't love. He supported all major Muslim extremist movements in the Middle East, including Al Qaida...
    Thank you for presenting facts and avoiding over-reactionary, sensationalist rhetoric. I see why some get emotional about these things, but the Appleinsider author of this article is quite a ways off base.  Just look at the title of this article... 100% ridiculous.  We (especially the media/journalist/editors) can greatly increase prospects of positive change if we stop spewing crap and instead err on the side of being rationale and sensible, which this Appleinsider article is not.  
  • Reply 56 of 83
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,553administrator
    drewys808 said:
    sirozha said:
    Even though I condemn a brutal murder of any human being not directly involved in harming civilians, and so by this standard I condemn the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, it's important to note here that he was not a freedom-loving journalist who purely wanted to report truthfully on the current events. 

    Jamal Khashoggi met the same kind of death that he wished on others. He has always been an ardent supporter of extremism (as extremism as perceived by the western standards). Starting from the recently surfaced picture of him standing with mujahideen holding a grenade launcher and continuing throughout his "journalistic" career, Jamal Khashoggi did not meet an Islamic extremist that he didn't love. He supported all major Muslim extremist movements in the Middle East, including Al Qaida...
    Thank you for presenting facts and avoiding over-reactionary, sensationalist rhetoric. I see why some get emotional about these things, but the Appleinsider author of this article is quite a ways off base.  Just look at the title of this article... 100% ridiculous.  We (especially the media/journalist/editors) can greatly increase prospects of positive change if we stop spewing crap and instead err on the side of being rationale and sensible, which this Appleinsider article is not.  
    I am not the author, however: while I appreciate Sirozha's contributions with facts, they are mostly cherry-picked and a red herring to the larger point of Stephen's piece.

    His entire body of work -- and his alterations of his political stances over time -- are clearly spelled out here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi
  • Reply 57 of 83
    volcan said:
    sacto joe said:
    Oh, please. Only the wealthy can afford electric cars. Get a grip.
    Oh please. Do the math. There are very reasonably priced electric cars on the market and the cost to drive one is probably less than $600 for 15,000 miles. It basically pays for itself after a few years compared to an equivalent gasoline powered car.
    “Let them eat cake.” You and Marie Antoinette....
  • Reply 58 of 83
    sacto joe said:
    matthewk said:
    matthewk said:
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    Based on what? 

    The guy had an American green card, and wrote for the Washington Post. It doesn't get much more "American journalist" than that.
    Green Card? This is inaccurate. 
    What's your agenda here? The O-1 versus EB-1 "green card" have the same legal protections. I apologize for generalizing the term. I have struck out my own imprecise language in my comments and corrected the specific term, but it doesn't change the protections one iota.
    Simply accuracy. Working here, and having the same protections, doesn't make to "American". Saying so is inaccurate.
    Why does he have to have an "agenda"? Your proscribing one to him is, frankly, more suggestive that you have one....
    Yeah, you'd be wrong, then.
    So why in the world did you proscribe one to him? Because he dared to disagree wirh you? There was literally nothing in his statement that might have been agenda-based.
  • Reply 59 of 83
    sirozha said:
    Even though I condemn a brutal murder of any human being not directly involved in harming civilians, and so by this standard I condemn the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, it's important to note here that he was not a freedom-loving journalist who purely wanted to report truthfully on the current events. 

    Jamal Khashoggi met the same kind of death that he wished on others. He has always been an ardent supporter of extremism (as extremism as perceived by the western standards). Starting from the recently surfaced picture of him standing with mujahideen holding a grenade launcher and continuing throughout his "journalistic" career, Jamal Khashoggi did not meet an Islamic extremist that he didn't love. He supported all major Muslim extremist movements in the Middle East, including Al Qaida, Hamas, their parent Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, Hizbollah, etc. He was virulently anti-Israel and wished for as well as spoke and wrote about his vision for the elimination of the State of Israel though an armed struggle. In other words, he had wished on the Israeli civilians the same death that he faced from the hands of the Saudi leadership. 

    Whether a critic of the current Saudi Crown Prince or not, Jamal Khashoggi was a promoter of extremism in the Middle East and throughout the world. On the other hand, MBS, the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, showed himself as a progressive leader compared to other members of the Saudi Royal Court. In fact, in the past year or so, there have been several editorials published in governmental Saudi newspapers that spoke of Israel in a positive way, which had been unheard of in the entire history of the Arab world, starting from the times of the Muslim prophet. The very fact that MBS and Jared Kushner conder(ed) each other close friends is unprecedented, given that one is an heir apparent to the Saudi Royal Throne and the other is the most competent adviser in the US President's close circle while being an Orthodox Jew. The fact that a Saudi Royal - a Muslim Arab - and and Orthodox Jew so close to the US President can call each other close friends is unprecedented and has a potential of completely changing the dynamic of the Middle East and finally bring about peace to the Arab Israeli conflict. 

    It's hard to imagine that MBS wasn't involved in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi, but IMHO, Mr. Khashoggi got to taste his own medicine in an extremely brutal way, which was the same way he wished death on Israelis. I do not condone the way he was handled at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, but it would have brought me nothing but satisfaction to have seen Mr. Khashoggi having his Green Card revoked for extremism and being thrown (alive) out of the United States. 

    MBS uses the same customary methods for eliminating his enemies as the methods used in Saudi Arabia to deal with the enemies. In this particular situation, the victim was not on the side of progress or peace but rather on the side of extremism. The method of dealing with the victim cannot be condoned, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that the victim was not innocent. Mr. Khashoggi was not an innocent man, and I'm not sure how he was able to receive permanent residency in the US. On the other hand, it has been rumored that the Saudis have been cooperating with Israelis under a common threat from Iran for many years now. Even though this could have been discounted as a rumor in the past, it has recently become obvious that the Israelis, the Saudis, and the Americans have been working for several years now on a comprehensive plan to bring about an end to the Arab Israeli conflict and to create peace in the Middle East as well as to form a coalition against the Iranian threats. This effort spearheaded by MBS must be supported, and the murder of an extremist at the hands of the Saudi hit team (most likely sent by MBS) should not derail a historic effort that is currently under way. If this opportunity is let pass, there may not be another chance for peace in the Middle East for centuries. 
    Dude. That pic of him with the Osama bin laden was during the Afghan war when the US supported the rebels against Russia. He was there on assignment as a journalist. Be careful of regurgitating Fox News right wing conspiracy theories in trying to downplay his murder...cause...um...he was one of “them”. It’s the kind of xenophobic otherizing that disregards fact for lies.
    dewmeradarthekat
  • Reply 60 of 83
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,553administrator
    sacto joe said:
    sacto joe said:
    matthewk said:
    matthewk said:
    Kuyangkoh said:
    American journalists? I think that is not a correct assumptions. He is not an American and probably hates America. Just my opinion.
    Business is business, Tim have responsibilities to Apple stockholder....
    Based on what? 

    The guy had an American green card, and wrote for the Washington Post. It doesn't get much more "American journalist" than that.
    Green Card? This is inaccurate. 
    What's your agenda here? The O-1 versus EB-1 "green card" have the same legal protections. I apologize for generalizing the term. I have struck out my own imprecise language in my comments and corrected the specific term, but it doesn't change the protections one iota.
    Simply accuracy. Working here, and having the same protections, doesn't make to "American". Saying so is inaccurate.
    Why does he have to have an "agenda"? Your proscribing one to him is, frankly, more suggestive that you have one....
    Yeah, you'd be wrong, then.
    So why in the world did you proscribe one to him? Because he dared to disagree wirh you? There was literally nothing in his statement that might have been agenda-based.
    I didn't. I asked. If I proscribed one to him, I would have very clearly said so. 

    His viewpoint on how we should have referred to the man is contra-indicated by the AP style guide, and Chicago as well. Like I said, I understood where he was coming from, but not his doubling-down on it.
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