It seems that customs is a legal twilight zone - I’ve read several reports of costoms agents performing what would clearly be illegal searches in any other circumstance and people seem to have very little recourse.
Much in the U.S. is becoming a legal twilight zone as "the law" is twisted, distorted and misused in order to advance or protect political agendas. Children were taken from their parents and locked in cages because "it's the law".
This is true. It’s also true that it’s not just the current “leadership” (though it’s far worse with them than it’s ever been). The TSA isn’t constitutional, but we a still have it (Bush II’s successor didn’t disassemble any of his policies) and it’s still an abusive overreach of authority. We even have people in left-leaning media talking about how the TSA protects us and “woah are we” when the TSA was struggling in the government shutdown (sucks for employees, but the TSA isn’t “protecting America” like media people kept saying while expressing sympathy for unpaid government workers).
It seems that the destruction of the so-called freedom we worship here has been going on for a very long time and neither of the duopoly parties are giving up any of the overreach established by their opponents when they finally get the ruling seats back. The pendulum isn’t swinging quite so wide these days.
Not sure that NDAs wash when law enforcement is involved.
At the same time, you're immediately put in a tough spot if you're unsure of what to do which is most likely why he wanted to speak with some at Apple and/or a lawyer. Do I give everything up and risk losing my job, or what?
Also, just because its law enforcement, doesn't give them the right to just search someone's property for very little to no reason. They're not above the law...they're there to enforce the law using legal means (proper policies and procedures).
CBP does have the right to search someone's property if they are entering the country. They don't need a reason. Fourth Amendment protections don't apply at ports of entry. It's like that with pretty much any border services agency in any country. They have the right to search someone's property when you enter a country.
It’s not that simple. Requesting access to people’s passwords and data goes beyond what was intended.
No one has any problem with them searching for drugs or weapons at the border.
How would you like going to China and having all your phone and laptop contents copied and reviewed? Do you have any “personal” photos or videos on there? If it’s a business visit, I hope you don’t have anything confidential...
What happens if you work for a company that has defense contracts? It doesn’t matter if it’s a family vacation, sometimes you need access to your work if something comes up.
People have all kinds of things that should be private unless a crime has been suspected of being committed, and that data should be going (requested) through the courts.
If you are crossing the border with technical data related to defense contracts, you could be looking at serious prison time. You just don't take ITAR data with you on vacation. There is also commercial technical data that requires a license to export (EAR data). This type of technical data would CBP would be looking for. Also, IP theft is something CBP would be watching for.
I'm sure as soon as he played the "it's my employer's phone with confidential data" card and refused to unlock it, it set off all kind of suspicions with the officers. As others have stated, CBP has the right to search everything.
For those suggesting putting the data "in the cloud", you can violate export laws by electronically transfer data as easily as physically transporting the data. You can even export the data without leaving the US by sharing the data with a foreign person. BTW, a foreign person can be a US citizen if they work for foreign company.
Not sure that NDAs wash when law enforcement is involved.
At the same time, you're immediately put in a tough spot if you're unsure of what to do which is most likely why he wanted to speak with some at Apple and/or a lawyer. Do I give everything up and risk losing my job, or what?
Also, just because its law enforcement, doesn't give them the right to just search someone's property for very little to no reason. They're not above the law...they're there to enforce the law using legal means (proper policies and procedures).
CBP does have the right to search someone's property if they are entering the country... They have the right to search someone's property when you enter a country.
I’m not sure if this applies. Reading the article, there is no indication that he was crossing the border—just that he crossed a checkpoint. From what I understand, CPB has incredibly broad searching powers within some ridiculous distance of the border—100 miles comes to mind.
Its possible he was just on his way from one domestic location to another and got caught in a checkpoint. If that is the case, are we still ok with having to have all your devices wiped before setting out?
If you are going from one domestic location to another, you won't go through customs. Andreas Gal was checked at SFO returning from Europe, so CBP did have the right under current laws to check all his devices. I get CBP has to check electronic devices, but downloading all the data from a returning citizen is something that should require a warrant imo.
Actually with border check stations sometimes as much as 100 miles back from the border, placed on major north south highways seen as chokrpoints it’s easy to encounter CBP while traveling totally within the U. S. I’d run into one every time I drove from San Diego north to the Sierra on I-15 as a shortcut to avoid L. A. and it’s location around Temecula was 73 miles north of the border at San Ysidro....
ETA: and, of course, uploading my purely personal data from my device to the cloud to avoid CBP intrusion into my privacy violates nothing, no more than carrying that ssme private information within the device. A good point is raised to not leave it “empty” as that would be curious. So music and books. Travel entertainment.
My 10,000 employee international company has advised me to cooperate with the CBP with company equipment, and that I may refuse to give them my confidential passwords (which they've spend large sums of money to train me never to give to anyone for any reason), but that I can expect to be detained. They've clearly made it my choice.
Placing data in the cloud and wiping the phone prior to entry also presents a suspicious device which raises questions and can result in being detained as well.
My 10,000 employee international company has advised me to cooperate with the CBP with company equipment, and that I may refuse to give them my confidential passwords (which they've spend large sums of money to train me never to give to anyone for any reason), but that I can expect to be detained.
I understand that Customs may detain me if I refuse to provide my password. What I don't understand is what that accomplishes. Is it an intimidation tactic? Is the hope that I'll get tired of waiting and change my mind? What is accomplished by having me sit there? Does anyone here know what happens behind the scenes during my detention or what the security benefit of my detention is perceived to be?
Not sure that NDAs wash when law enforcement is involved.
At the same time, you're immediately put in a tough spot if you're unsure of what to do which is most likely why he wanted to speak with some at Apple and/or a lawyer. Do I give everything up and risk losing my job, or what?
Also, just because its law enforcement, doesn't give them the right to just search someone's property for very little to no reason. They're not above the law...they're there to enforce the law using legal means (proper policies and procedures).
CBP does have the right to search someone's property if they are entering the country. They don't need a reason. Fourth Amendment protections don't apply at ports of entry. It's like that with pretty much any border services agency in any country. They have the right to search someone's property when you enter a country.
This was also my understanding of the situation as, being from the EU, I am often reminded that you are required to comply or get refused entry. Perhaps refusing his request to have a lawyer present was iffy but I am told, lawyer present or not, you have to comply.
The problem is I have never heard of a case like this actually occurring so don't know if it is all right, but that is what I have been told.
My 10,000 employee international company has advised me to cooperate with the CBP with company equipment, and that I may refuse to give them my confidential passwords (which they've spend large sums of money to train me never to give to anyone for any reason), but that I can expect to be detained.
I understand that Customs may detain me if I refuse to provide my password. What I don't understand is what that accomplishes. Is it an intimidation tactic? Is the hope that I'll get tired of waiting and change my mind? What is accomplished by having me sit there? Does anyone here know what happens behind the scenes during my detention or what the security benefit of my detention is perceived to be?
Yes, it is an intimidation tactic. Whoever blinks first wins.
Hope the ACLU takes this one to the supreme court if necessary. The Constitution should mean something even at boarder checkpoints.
Not sure it would even be accepted by the SCOTUS for them to hear, plus I’d wager there is probably a lot of case law which supports strong law enforcement tactics at points of entry, especially at airports.
The ACLU is usually on the wrong side of things, so I don't see this as something that concerns me.
If they feel they have a case, then go sue.
Only for those on the wrong side of the law and Constitution.
Anyone can sue for anything. If you look at recent history, both left and right wing groups have used the legal system to advance their cause (or try to stop the other side.)
I wouldn’t say that the ACLU is on the wrong side of things so much as they are more extreme and often seem to lack balance/perspective on issues. I think most people feel citizens are entities to civil liberties like freedom of speech, they just differ on how far those rights go.
False equivalencies are, well, false. "They All Do It" is a standard excuse for those breaking rules of law, ethics and morality.
Comments
This is true. It’s also true that it’s not just the current “leadership” (though it’s far worse with them than it’s ever been). The TSA isn’t constitutional, but we a still have it (Bush II’s successor didn’t disassemble any of his policies) and it’s still an abusive overreach of authority. We even have people in left-leaning media talking about how the TSA protects us and “woah are we” when the TSA was struggling in the government shutdown (sucks for employees, but the TSA isn’t “protecting America” like media people kept saying while expressing sympathy for unpaid government workers).
It seems that the destruction of the so-called freedom we worship here has been going on for a very long time and neither of the duopoly parties are giving up any of the overreach established by their opponents when they finally get the ruling seats back. The pendulum isn’t swinging quite so wide these days.
I'm sure as soon as he played the "it's my employer's phone with confidential data" card and refused to unlock it, it set off all kind of suspicions with the officers. As others have stated, CBP has the right to search everything.
For those suggesting putting the data "in the cloud", you can violate export laws by electronically transfer data as easily as physically transporting the data. You can even export the data without leaving the US by sharing the data with a foreign person. BTW, a foreign person can be a US citizen if they work for foreign company.
ETA: and, of course, uploading my purely personal data from my device to the cloud to avoid CBP intrusion into my privacy violates nothing, no more than carrying that ssme private information within the device. A good point is raised to not leave it “empty” as that would be curious. So music and books. Travel entertainment.
Placing data in the cloud and wiping the phone prior to entry also presents a suspicious device which raises questions and can result in being detained as well.
The problem is I have never heard of a case like this actually occurring so don't know if it is all right, but that is what I have been told.