Manufacturing is NOT coming back to America, at least not the kind that produces lots of good paying jobs. Why can’t we get this through our thick skulls? We fall for the dog and pony show every time some company waves the “JOBS” flag in our faces.
Because not all of us are defeatists. Not all of us want to be subservient to China. Can't wait for the next war we lose since we don't know how to make ball bearing anymore.
But sure, I'm happy our largest employer is Walmart and not GM or US Steel.
And India is actively trying to replace China.
Perhaps, but India has a long way to go. Most homes don't even have toilets. Because they speak better english they've taken the IT and services route rather than manufacturing.
Manufacturing is NOT coming back to America, at least not the kind that produces lots of good paying jobs. Why can’t we get this through our thick skulls? We fall for the dog and pony show every time some company waves the “JOBS” flag in our faces.
Because not all of us are defeatists. Not all of us want to be subservient to China. Can't wait for the next war we lose since we don't know how to make ball bearing anymore.
But sure, I'm happy our largest employer is Walmart and not GM or US Steel.
And India is actively trying to replace China.
Perhaps, but India has a long way to go. Most homes don't even have toilets. Because they speak better english they've taken the IT and services route rather than manufacturing.
With 1.3 billion people, India can take over everything.
Manufacturing is NOT coming back to America, at least not the kind that produces lots of good paying jobs. Why can’t we get this through our thick skulls? We fall for the dog and pony show every time some company waves the “JOBS” flag in our faces.
Because not all of us are defeatists. Not all of us want to be subservient to China. Can't wait for the next war we lose since we don't know how to make ball bearing anymore.
But sure, I'm happy our largest employer is Walmart and not GM or US Steel.
And India is actively trying to replace China.
Perhaps, but India has a long way to go. Most homes don't even have toilets. Because they speak better english they've taken the IT and services route rather than manufacturing.
With 1.3 billion people, India can take over everything.
Not sure about that, they couldn't even defeat Pakistan.
Manufacturing is NOT coming back to America, at least not the kind that produces lots of good paying jobs. Why can’t we get this through our thick skulls? We fall for the dog and pony show every time some company waves the “JOBS” flag in our faces.
Because not all of us are defeatists. Not all of us want to be subservient to China. Can't wait for the next war we lose since we don't know how to make ball bearing anymore.
But sure, I'm happy our largest employer is Walmart and not GM or US Steel.
And India is actively trying to replace China.
Perhaps, but India has a long way to go. Most homes don't even have toilets. Because they speak better english they've taken the IT and services route rather than manufacturing.
With 1.3 billion people, India can take over everything.
Not sure about that, they couldn't even defeat Pakistan.
First, I’m amazed that this thread is still open. I guess everyone has been pretty well-behaved.
Now, my only real problem with this article is that it describes subsidies as “handouts.” I’m not a big fan of subsidies like these or with New York’s now defunct Amazon deal. But, they also aren’t exactly “handouts.” They aren’t *terrible* ideas. I would much rather see much lower taxes in general...where we didn’t have to have special carveouts. Since that’s what’s happening here, I find it hard to believe the deal was written in such a way that if they don’t deliver on their promises, they don’t get their full subsidies.
For the most part, the behavior has been good enough to keep it open. Like I keep saying -- threads are starting open these days. We only close them when they get ridiculous.
This has Donald's cheese-burger-greasy finger all over it.
He kills any good will with China and Taiwan (where Foxconn is located) and deals are aborted.
I hope Trumpers take note. He is killing the Earth, and is a deal-breaker, not deal-maker.
China is out to destroy us, maybe not military (but may so) but for sure economically. China shows us no good will that doesn't benefit them 10x more. China is our enemy and they are truly the ones killing the earth. It amazes me when Americans put China above the US just to spite Trump.
China is a natural economic competitor going back thousands of years. Since the 1970s China has gotten their act together & the rest of the world has to deal with it. As for Trump & this failure in Wisconsin, he oversold his negotiating & management skills with this project (which is typical Trump boasting going back to the election). Fact is in the 1990s Trump had a very poor track record in keeping his businesses going. I’m certainly not putting China over Trump but what I think this failure with Foxconn shows is that Trump is not the economic miracle worker he claimed to be.
I'm talking today, not thousands of years ago. China steals our technology, steals our IP, manipulates their currency so they remain an exporting economy and not an importing one. China keeps their factories running non-stop, regardless of demand, and dumps the product on world markets, violating signed trade deals. China is considered a 3rd world economy in regards to the WTO. China is not our friend. Putting China ahead of us to spite Trump is foolish and wrong.
Manufacturing is trickling back to the US. Unemployment is at a 50 yr low. Minority unemployment is at an all time low. Stock market is up nearly 50%. Unfair trade deals are being renegotiated. Wages are going up. Miracle worker? I don't know, but things are looking pretty good to me. But, let's concentrate just on Foxconn.
I remember reading the same excuses about why Japan was decimating our steel, auto and electronics industries back in the 80's.
As for today's economy : Thanks Obama for the wise leadership and fiscal responsibility that propelled us out of a near depression and back into prosperity. Hopefully Trump is out of office before he can drive us into bankruptcy.
We finally had strong leadership that stood up to Japan and their economy has hardly recovered since. Trump is trying to do the same, we should be thankful we finally have a strong leader.
Obama had neither wise leadership nor fiscal responsibility in terms of our economy. His admin only reduced interest rates and put forth home refinance plan that most were not qualified for and was poorly run. On top of this he doubled our national debt, meaning he added more to our debt than all previous presidents combined. He made us look weak on the world stage by giving in on every trade negotiation or treaty. He was only concerned about his legacy.
LOL... Nice try at revisionist history there. But I get a chuckle out of how you praise Bill Clinton for standing up to Japan.
But, for presidents, you need to look at deficits: Both Obama and Clinton cut theirs. Clinton went from deficit to a balanced budget while Obama took it from $1Trillion to less than half that. But, Trump has got us back up to $1Trillion again -- while inheriting a country running full steam.
apple ][ said: Trump is doing a great job, way better than the impotent bum who came before him.
The "impotent bum" who helped turn around the 2008 collapse and gave Trump a booming economy in return?
Good thing the ACA covered Viagra!
The 2008 collapse would have naturally worked it way out (once the foreclosures were done) just like every other recession we've been through. He did nothing special to quicken the natural recovery. Btw, Bush inherited the dot com collapse from Clinton and did just fine his first 7 yrs.
You mean like how the Great Depression "worked its way out"? The Great Recession came very close to becoming the Great Depression version 2. George Bush in a rare moment of clarity realized the ramifications and initiated the stimulus that Obama and the Fed continued over the next 8 years that both saved us from a full blown depression and pulled us out of the recession.
The US has been through many recessions over the years and worked its way out of all of them. The last recession hit us harder since it was based almost entirely on the housing market where rates were low and people were blowing their home equity on nonsense purchases thinking the housing market will never go down. It's one thing to lose you job it's another to lose your house. That's why it felt worse. The stock market had fully recovered within a few years and has been on a tear since.
Glad you admit Obama simply continued the stimulus Bush started.
So, you marginalize the Bush's Great Recession as 'just another recession'? No responsible economist would agree.
This has Donald's cheese-burger-greasy finger all over it.
He kills any good will with China and Taiwan (where Foxconn is located) and deals are aborted.
I hope Trumpers take note. He is killing the Earth, and is a deal-breaker, not deal-maker.
China is out to destroy us, maybe not military (but may so) but for sure economically. China shows us no good will that doesn't benefit them 10x more. China is our enemy and they are truly the ones killing the earth. It amazes me when Americans put China above the US just to spite Trump.
China is a natural economic competitor going back thousands of years. Since the 1970s China has gotten their act together & the rest of the world has to deal with it. As for Trump & this failure in Wisconsin, he oversold his negotiating & management skills with this project (which is typical Trump boasting going back to the election). Fact is in the 1990s Trump had a very poor track record in keeping his businesses going. I’m certainly not putting China over Trump but what I think this failure with Foxconn shows is that Trump is not the economic miracle worker he claimed to be.
I'm talking today, not thousands of years ago. China steals our technology, steals our IP, manipulates their currency so they remain an exporting economy and not an importing one. China keeps their factories running non-stop, regardless of demand, and dumps the product on world markets, violating signed trade deals. China is considered a 3rd world economy in regards to the WTO. China is not our friend. Putting China ahead of us to spite Trump is foolish and wrong.
Manufacturing is trickling back to the US. Unemployment is at a 50 yr low. Minority unemployment is at an all time low. Stock market is up nearly 50%. Unfair trade deals are being renegotiated. Wages are going up. Miracle worker? I don't know, but things are looking pretty good to me. But, let's concentrate just on Foxconn.
I remember reading the same excuses about why Japan was decimating our steel, auto and electronics industries back in the 80's.
As for today's economy : Thanks Obama for the wise leadership and fiscal responsibility that propelled us out of a near depression and back into prosperity. Hopefully Trump is out of office before he can drive us into bankruptcy.
We finally had strong leadership that stood up to Japan and their economy has hardly recovered since. Trump is trying to do the same, we should be thankful we finally have a strong leader.
Obama had neither wise leadership nor fiscal responsibility in terms of our economy. His admin only reduced interest rates and put forth home refinance plan that most were not qualified for and was poorly run. On top of this he doubled our national debt, meaning he added more to our debt than all previous presidents combined. He made us look weak on the world stage by giving in on every trade negotiation or treaty. He was only concerned about his legacy.
LOL... Nice try at revisionist history there. But I get a chuckle out of how you praise Bill Clinton for standing up to Japan.
But, for presidents, you need to look at deficits: Both Obama and Clinton cut theirs. Clinton went from deficit to a balanced budget while Obama took it from $1Trillion to less than half that. But, Trump has got us back up to $1Trillion again -- while inheriting a country running full steam.
I was mainly thinking of Reagan and Bush.
Clinton had a balance budget for only a year or so when tax revenue from the dot com boom was though the roof. Remember when Yahoo or Netscape or even pets.com would double on an almost daily basis? Then it all crashed and Bush inherited that and the 9/11 crisis.
apple ][ said: Trump is doing a great job, way better than the impotent bum who came before him.
The "impotent bum" who helped turn around the 2008 collapse and gave Trump a booming economy in return?
Good thing the ACA covered Viagra!
The 2008 collapse would have naturally worked it way out (once the foreclosures were done) just like every other recession we've been through. He did nothing special to quicken the natural recovery. Btw, Bush inherited the dot com collapse from Clinton and did just fine his first 7 yrs.
You mean like how the Great Depression "worked its way out"? The Great Recession came very close to becoming the Great Depression version 2. George Bush in a rare moment of clarity realized the ramifications and initiated the stimulus that Obama and the Fed continued over the next 8 years that both saved us from a full blown depression and pulled us out of the recession.
The US has been through many recessions over the years and worked its way out of all of them. The last recession hit us harder since it was based almost entirely on the housing market where rates were low and people were blowing their home equity on nonsense purchases thinking the housing market will never go down. It's one thing to lose you job it's another to lose your house. That's why it felt worse. The stock market had fully recovered within a few years and has been on a tear since.
Glad you admit Obama simply continued the stimulus Bush started.
So, you marginalize the Bush's Great Recession as 'just another recession'? No responsible economist would agree.
We've been through many recessions, some severe some less so and recovered from all of them.
Reminds me of the Amazon boondoggle in New York that was going to cost taxpayers $48,000 per job in subsidies. Some think it is up to the taxpayers to pay for a corporation's costs. I am on the left side of that fence.
It's ridiculous that any government would give a very profitable corporation any tax relief (especially one that doesn't bother to pay Federal taxes) and I wish it were illegal under Federal law to do so, BUT Amazon promised 25,000 $100,000 jobs. That's $2.5 billion in salaries every year, assuming they lived up to their promises which could have been easily controlled by having a sliding scale tax break based on the number of such jobs actually created. $2.5 billion in salaries translates to about $17 billion in total economic activity because money spent generally turns over about 7 times. In addition, Amazon was going to donate land for a school (although IMO, they should have donated the building as well).
People in the area were paranoid that they'd be pushed out, but NYC is different than other places in that assuming most people would be hired from the overall metropolitan area, there's no reason to assume that people would attempt to move near the site rather than simply commute like they do today to wherever their job place is. NYC is large enough that 25,000 people earning that kind of money wouldn't have the negative impact on housing prices, etc. that it does in smaller cities like Seattle, San Francisco and Palo Alto.
There were some legitimate concerns, like additional people on an already completely overcrowded subway, but if many of those workers came from Manhattan or the Bronx, they'd be reverse commuting. And the subway line went right adjacent to the proposed site - they could have just dug down and built a new station there, although that wouldn't have reduced the number of people on the train. In addition, the site was right on the East River and they could have run ferries from various places around the city. The area already has very high priced housing. IMO, Amazon would have had little impact on the already ridiculously overpriced housing market.
Current IT and Marketing people working for other companies who sought and got jobs at Amazon would have opened up jobs for other people at somewhat lower paying companies.
So while I consider myself a leftist, I think it was an incredible error to have given up those jobs, if they were real. I think this was mob rule because it's so easy to hate a company like Amazon (I do) and some local politicians jumped on the bandwagon so they'd look like heroes. IMO, huge mistake and quite hypocritical.
As far as Wisconsin is concerned, I don't know if there was an actual written agreement and what it said, but it seems quite clear that whatever agreement there was has been broken, so there's no need to renegotiate - Foxconn should not receive any tax break whatsoever until the jobs exist.
Reminds me of the Amazon boondoggle in New York that was going to cost taxpayers $48,000 per job in subsidies. Some think it is up to the taxpayers to pay for a corporation's costs. I am on the left side of that fence.
It's subsidies, a tax break.
Now the city will have lost many billions in tax revenue and many tens of thousands of lost jobs thanks to idiot politicians like that dumb bartender from the Bronx, AOC, who actually thought that there was millions of dollars lying around someplace that the city has now saved and can now be spent on other projects. You can't fix stupid.
If you're going to call someone else stupid, maybe you should get your facts straight first:
Here’s how the HQ2 incentives were going to break down For the Long Island City location, Amazon was going to receive $1.2 billion in refundable tax credits through New York State’s Excelsior Jobs Program if the company created 25,000 net new jobs in New York State by the end of June 2028. New York State had also promised a $505 million capital grant to reimburse Amazon for the costs associated with building its office space. Amazon also planned to take advantage of incentives through New York City’s Industrial and Commercial Abatement Program and New York City’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP). Unlike the incentive offered by state officials, these city programs are available to any businesses that meet their specific requirements. Tax breaks through REAP, for instance, could have added up to $900 million.
A $505 capital grant to pay Amazon back for building its office is literally money that could be used for something else. Whether you agree or not that it's absurd to be throwing half a billion in cash and another 2.5 billion in tax incentives at a giant megacorp like Amazon and pointing out other communities and infrastructure that could use those funds and tax breaks, misrepresenting what she said while literally getting the facts wrong yourself isn't helping your argument.
A $505M investment that would return many many billions for many many years is a sound investment. What else should they spend it on? Housing for the homeless for a year? California was ready to spend $200B for a crazy train that would have little benefit or return (but we could say we're just like Europe now). NY lost big.
Regardless of any long term benefits had they struck a deal, Amazon does not need $505M or tax breaks. Full stop, end of story.
Comments
But, for presidents, you need to look at deficits: Both Obama and Clinton cut theirs. Clinton went from deficit to a balanced budget while Obama took it from $1Trillion to less than half that. But, Trump has got us back up to $1Trillion again -- while inheriting a country running full steam.
Clinton had a balance budget for only a year or so when tax revenue from the dot com boom was though the roof. Remember when Yahoo or Netscape or even pets.com would double on an almost daily basis? Then it all crashed and Bush inherited that and the 9/11 crisis.
People in the area were paranoid that they'd be pushed out, but NYC is different than other places in that assuming most people would be hired from the overall metropolitan area, there's no reason to assume that people would attempt to move near the site rather than simply commute like they do today to wherever their job place is. NYC is large enough that 25,000 people earning that kind of money wouldn't have the negative impact on housing prices, etc. that it does in smaller cities like Seattle, San Francisco and Palo Alto.
There were some legitimate concerns, like additional people on an already completely overcrowded subway, but if many of those workers came from Manhattan or the Bronx, they'd be reverse commuting. And the subway line went right adjacent to the proposed site - they could have just dug down and built a new station there, although that wouldn't have reduced the number of people on the train. In addition, the site was right on the East River and they could have run ferries from various places around the city. The area already has very high priced housing. IMO, Amazon would have had little impact on the already ridiculously overpriced housing market.
Current IT and Marketing people working for other companies who sought and got jobs at Amazon would have opened up jobs for other people at somewhat lower paying companies.
So while I consider myself a leftist, I think it was an incredible error to have given up those jobs, if they were real. I think this was mob rule because it's so easy to hate a company like Amazon (I do) and some local politicians jumped on the bandwagon so they'd look like heroes. IMO, huge mistake and quite hypocritical.
As far as Wisconsin is concerned, I don't know if there was an actual written agreement and what it said, but it seems quite clear that whatever agreement there was has been broken, so there's no need to renegotiate - Foxconn should not receive any tax break whatsoever until the jobs exist.