Every laptop manufacturer on the planet has keyboard complaints. It's one of the parts that can fail. Nobody has designed a failure proof mechanical keyboard.
That's true, but how often is a key question. Also I'm not aware of any other manufacturer that to replace one broken key requires replacement of the "entire top case assembly -- including the battery, keyboard, speakers, and Touch Bar." That's a $700 repair (before Apple created the repair program and out of warranty) and takes a week or more without your laptop. That is not only ridiculous it's an incredible waste from a company that's supposed to be environmentally friendly. All for a few mm of thinness. You used to be able to do swap out the keyboards on the iBooks without even a tool. There is a happy medium.
Every laptop manufacturer on the planet has keyboard complaints. It's one of the parts that can fail. Nobody has designed a failure proof mechanical keyboard.
Panasonic's Toughbook keyboards are pretty close. I have a CF-31, and you would not believe the abuse those things can shrug off. Neither keyboard option for it feels particularly great, but you can blow sand and dust at the machine all day, hose it down, and it'll work fine.
I scratch my head - Apple and other computer manufacturers have been making keyboards for forty years, why are modern designs increasing failure rates? Go back to more dependable designs from the past.
I don't own any of the newer Macbooks or Macbook Pros, so I can't comment as to how good the keyboards are or how they hold up, but I have briefly touched a few of the newer Macbook keyboards in stores, and it feels like they have very little travel, at least compared to keyboards that I have been used to in the past.
The last Macbook I owned was a 2007 Blackbook, and I liked the keyboard on that one. I'm not sure if I would like one of the newer models.
I'm a fan of thinner, when it comes to iPhones and iPads, but I do miss the keyboards of old on newer products like laptops and desktops.
I recently restored one of my old Apple keyboards from 1999 and I made it brand new again. Works fine and it is not paper thin and it has plenty of travel too.
It's pretty clear that Apple's recent "update" to the MacBook Pro is just a stop gate ...
In other words, you're substituting your "guess" as fact. You have zero idea.
Manufacturers always evolve their products. The rationale that people like you make is that unless something is perfect (which nothing ever is) then it's an obvious mistake and every improvement made is proof the company was hiding the truth and that you were right.
If Apple doesn't do anything, you'll criticize Apple for having a flawed product. If Apple does something, you'll criticize Apple for improving said product.
Apple can't win.
As The Dude would concur... everything on this feed is "just one's opinion man". I'm just saying I want and need a new MacBook Pro and unfortunately will probably wait for the next generation with hopefully a better keyboard which is both reliable and has nicer touch. The current keyboard was never designed with the writer in mind, it was form over function.
Oh boy...the internet is going to explode with this report!
Instead of playing the wait and see approach, let's just jump to conclusions and bitch about the keyboard instead.
The prognosticators are going to have a field day, amirite?
On topic: Here's to hoping the changes help mitigate the keyboard issues for future buyers. The headline imo, though provocative, does seem to mirror Apple's confidence in the "fix" since this keyboard has been preemptively added to the repair program. This seems like the 3rd mitigation to be thrown against the wall with the hopes that it will stick. If it doesn't... oh well, it 's already in the program.
Seems only fair to reserve judgement until some actual reviews come out. A tear down from iFixit isn’t a review. This is one of the things I hate about iFixit. They rush to get products to tear down and then throw it up on their site for clicks. iFixit is just guessing and then sites like The Verge are ruining with iFixit’s guesses rather than waiting until they have a unit they can test.
What iFixit guesses are you referencing? Surely your not attributing AI's opinion that the keyboard changes won't do much to iFixit. ← intended iFixit had nothing to do with that opinion. As for reserving judgment for reviews, how exactly would that help assess the efficacy of the keyboard changes? That doesn't make sense. You say sites like the Verge should wait until they have a unit to test. Then what? What test are they supposed to run that is going to assess the keyboard changes?
As for expressing an opinion now. The original was flawed. So was the replacement. As was the replacement's replacement...and the replacement's replacement's replacement. Why would one have confidence this latest fix is going to be the One. I mean, if it was code named Neo during development I'd have some optimism. This fix seems more like a fingers crossed, hope this works kinda deal.
I’m saying no one has used this machine yet but already they’ve determined the keyboard will be a failure again. iFixit can do all the tear downs they want. Doesn’t make them the authority on this keyboard no matter how much Kyle Wiens thinks it does.
Oh boy...the internet is going to explode with this report!
Instead of playing the wait and see approach, let's just jump to conclusions and bitch about the keyboard instead.
The prognosticators are going to have a field day, amirite?
On topic: Here's to hoping the changes help mitigate the keyboard issues for future buyers. The headline imo, though provocative, does seem to mirror Apple's confidence in the "fix" since this keyboard has been preemptively added to the repair program. This seems like the 3rd mitigation to be thrown against the wall with the hopes that it will stick. If it doesn't... oh well, it 's already in the program.
Seems only fair to reserve judgement until some actual reviews come out. A tear down from iFixit isn’t a review. This is one of the things I hate about iFixit. They rush to get products to tear down and then throw it up on their site for clicks. iFixit is just guessing and then sites like The Verge are ruining with iFixit’s guesses rather than waiting until they have a unit they can test.
What iFixit guesses are you referencing? Surely your not attributing AI's opinion that the keyboard changes won't do much to iFixit. ← intended iFixit had nothing to do with that opinion. As for reserving judgment for reviews, how exactly would that help assess the efficacy of the keyboard changes? That doesn't make sense. You say sites like the Verge should wait until they have a unit to test. Then what? What test are they supposed to run that is going to assess the keyboard changes?
As for expressing an opinion now. The original was flawed. So was the replacement. As was the replacement's replacement...and the replacement's replacement's replacement. Why would one have confidence this latest fix is going to be the One. I mean, if it was code named Neo during development I'd have some optimism. This fix seems more like a fingers crossed, hope this works kinda deal.
I’m saying no one has used this machine yet but already they’ve determined the keyboard will be a failure again. iFixit can do all the tear downs they want. Doesn’t make them the authority on this keyboard no matter how much Kyle Wiens thinks it does.
What did iFixit say that you disagree with? It seems that you're complaining about iFixit just for the sake of complaining. They did a tear down. They didn't make any claims about the new keyboard. AI did. That's a fairly reasonable assumption imo, considering the track record of this keyboard design. I think it's certainly a more reasonable assumption than to think it's finally fixed.
Oh boy...the internet is going to explode with this report!
Instead of playing the wait and see approach, let's just jump to conclusions and bitch about the keyboard instead.
The prognosticators are going to have a field day, amirite?
On topic: Here's to hoping the changes help mitigate the keyboard issues for future buyers. The headline imo, though provocative, does seem to mirror Apple's confidence in the "fix" since this keyboard has been preemptively added to the repair program. This seems like the 3rd mitigation to be thrown against the wall with the hopes that it will stick. If it doesn't... oh well, it 's already in the program.
Seems only fair to reserve judgement until some actual reviews come out. A tear down from iFixit isn’t a review. This is one of the things I hate about iFixit. They rush to get products to tear down and then throw it up on their site for clicks. iFixit is just guessing and then sites like The Verge are ruining with iFixit’s guesses rather than waiting until they have a unit they can test.
What iFixit guesses are you referencing? Surely your not attributing AI's opinion that the keyboard changes won't do much to iFixit. ← intended iFixit had nothing to do with that opinion. As for reserving judgment for reviews, how exactly would that help assess the efficacy of the keyboard changes? That doesn't make sense. You say sites like the Verge should wait until they have a unit to test. Then what? What test are they supposed to run that is going to assess the keyboard changes?
As for expressing an opinion now. The original was flawed. So was the replacement. As was the replacement's replacement...and the replacement's replacement's replacement. Why would one have confidence this latest fix is going to be the One. I mean, if it was code named Neo during development I'd have some optimism. This fix seems more like a fingers crossed, hope this works kinda deal.
I’m saying no one has used this machine yet but already they’ve determined the keyboard will be a failure again. iFixit can do all the tear downs they want. Doesn’t make them the authority on this keyboard no matter how much Kyle Wiens thinks it does.
What did iFixit say that you disagree with? It seems that you're complaining about iFixit just for the sake of complaining. They did a tear down. They didn't make any claims about the new keyboard. AI did. That's a fairly reasonable assumption imo, considering the track record of this keyboard design. I think it's certainly a more reasonable assumption than to think it's finally fixed.
This article was written based of iFixit’s teardown wasn’t it? This is from iFixit’s review:
What this doesn't tell us is, just what problem Apple's engineers tried to solve using this updated material. Send us your ideas!
So basically the iFixit teardown gives us no real insight into whether these changes are going to improve reliability yet everyone using their teardown to write their own stories is making assumptions this won’t change anything. I think The Verge, AI and others should get a unit and use it for a week before giving an opinion on the new keyboard.
Oh boy...the internet is going to explode with this report!
Instead of playing the wait and see approach, let's just jump to conclusions and bitch about the keyboard instead.
The prognosticators are going to have a field day, amirite?
On topic: Here's to hoping the changes help mitigate the keyboard issues for future buyers. The headline imo, though provocative, does seem to mirror Apple's confidence in the "fix" since this keyboard has been preemptively added to the repair program. This seems like the 3rd mitigation to be thrown against the wall with the hopes that it will stick. If it doesn't... oh well, it 's already in the program.
Seems only fair to reserve judgement until some actual reviews come out. A tear down from iFixit isn’t a review. This is one of the things I hate about iFixit. They rush to get products to tear down and then throw it up on their site for clicks. iFixit is just guessing and then sites like The Verge are ruining with iFixit’s guesses rather than waiting until they have a unit they can test.
What iFixit guesses are you referencing? Surely your not attributing AI's opinion that the keyboard changes won't do much to iFixit. ← intended iFixit had nothing to do with that opinion. As for reserving judgment for reviews, how exactly would that help assess the efficacy of the keyboard changes? That doesn't make sense. You say sites like the Verge should wait until they have a unit to test. Then what? What test are they supposed to run that is going to assess the keyboard changes?
As for expressing an opinion now. The original was flawed. So was the replacement. As was the replacement's replacement...and the replacement's replacement's replacement. Why would one have confidence this latest fix is going to be the One. I mean, if it was code named Neo during development I'd have some optimism. This fix seems more like a fingers crossed, hope this works kinda deal.
I’m saying no one has used this machine yet but already they’ve determined the keyboard will be a failure again. iFixit can do all the tear downs they want. Doesn’t make them the authority on this keyboard no matter how much Kyle Wiens thinks it does.
What did iFixit say that you disagree with? It seems that you're complaining about iFixit just for the sake of complaining. They did a tear down. They didn't make any claims about the new keyboard. AI did. That's a fairly reasonable assumption imo, considering the track record of this keyboard design. I think it's certainly a more reasonable assumption than to think it's finally fixed.
This article was written based of iFixit’s teardown wasn’t it? This is from iFixit’s review:
What this doesn't tell us is, just what problem Apple's engineers tried to solve using this updated material. Send us your ideas!
So basically the iFixit teardown gives us no real insight into whether these changes are going to improve reliability yet everyone using their teardown to write their own stories is making assumptions this won’t change anything. I think The Verge, AI and others should get a unit and use it for a week before giving an opinion on the new keyboard.
We already have -- see today's hands on with the 13-inch. The keyboard feels the same.
And based on iFixit's material identification, and information based on our own knowledge and consultation with other material scientists, there's no giant changes made that will result in fewer Genius Bar trips for consumers. Perhaps fewer full replacements, in favor of the cleaning procedure at the store, but that's about it. I've discussed this more in-depth on the first page of this forum thread -- specifically post 12.
My day one 2016 MacBook Pro with Radeon 460 is still going strong. I’m hoping that one of the keys goes wonky so I can take it to get a new top case as mine has a shiny spot where I rest my left palm. I use it every day of the week running vm’s and world of Warcraft and it’s been rock solid even with the bashing the keyboard takes when playing a WoW. When it’s not in use it’s kept in a Cush case in my laptop bag and it gets an occasional wipe over with a mildly damp cloth now and again to clean it.
Oh boy...the internet is going to explode with this report!
Instead of playing the wait and see approach, let's just jump to conclusions and bitch about the keyboard instead.
The prognosticators are going to have a field day, amirite?
On topic: Here's to hoping the changes help mitigate the keyboard issues for future buyers. The headline imo, though provocative, does seem to mirror Apple's confidence in the "fix" since this keyboard has been preemptively added to the repair program. This seems like the 3rd mitigation to be thrown against the wall with the hopes that it will stick. If it doesn't... oh well, it 's already in the program.
Seems only fair to reserve judgement until some actual reviews come out. A tear down from iFixit isn’t a review. This is one of the things I hate about iFixit. They rush to get products to tear down and then throw it up on their site for clicks. iFixit is just guessing and then sites like The Verge are ruining with iFixit’s guesses rather than waiting until they have a unit they can test.
What iFixit guesses are you referencing? Surely your not attributing AI's opinion that the keyboard changes won't do much to iFixit. ← intended iFixit had nothing to do with that opinion. As for reserving judgment for reviews, how exactly would that help assess the efficacy of the keyboard changes? That doesn't make sense. You say sites like the Verge should wait until they have a unit to test. Then what? What test are they supposed to run that is going to assess the keyboard changes?
As for expressing an opinion now. The original was flawed. So was the replacement. As was the replacement's replacement...and the replacement's replacement's replacement. Why would one have confidence this latest fix is going to be the One. I mean, if it was code named Neo during development I'd have some optimism. This fix seems more like a fingers crossed, hope this works kinda deal.
I’m saying no one has used this machine yet but already they’ve determined the keyboard will be a failure again. iFixit can do all the tear downs they want. Doesn’t make them the authority on this keyboard no matter how much Kyle Wiens thinks it does.
What did iFixit say that you disagree with? It seems that you're complaining about iFixit just for the sake of complaining. They did a tear down. They didn't make any claims about the new keyboard. AI did. That's a fairly reasonable assumption imo, considering the track record of this keyboard design. I think it's certainly a more reasonable assumption than to think it's finally fixed.
This article was written based of iFixit’s teardown wasn’t it? This is from iFixit’s review:
What this doesn't tell us is, just what problem Apple's engineers tried to solve using this updated material. Send us your ideas!
So basically the iFixit teardown gives us no real insight into whether these changes are going to improve reliability yet everyone using their teardown to write their own stories is making assumptions this won’t change anything. I think The Verge, AI and others should get a unit and use it for a week before giving an opinion on the new keyboard.
Yeah, but you're shooting the messenger. As you pointed out, iFixit clearly states they don't know if the fix will work. iFixit can't be blamed for other entities like AI and the Verge taking their teardown and drawing their own conclusions. iFixit basically says here's what's inside, here's what's different. We don't know if the differences fix it. Verge says whatever they say, AI says what they say, and you come with "this is one of the things I hate about iFixit". Aren't you misdirecting your ire just a little bit? The teardown is innocuous. How AI and the Verge interpret it is on them, not iFixit.
Changes to the MacBook Keyboard noted in the article.
1. Switch from Polyacetylene to Polyamide switch covers
2. Change metal dome switches to new alloy with new surface treatment
These are big changes to improve reliability of each key.
The complaints about keyboard malfunction most often involve the keys most frequently used on the keyboard. Thus, the problem is not dust but key mechanism failure through fatigue.
The new keyboard materials will help improve the reliability of the keys themselves - which is what Apple is claiming.
As iFixit itself noted, the long-standing complaints are about the MacBook keys double-typing or becoming unresponsive. This is a fatigue-induced failure problem which Apple just addressed.
Every laptop manufacturer on the planet has keyboard complaints. It's one of the parts that can fail. Nobody has designed a failure proof mechanical keyboard.
WRONG!
Apple from 1995 - 2015 had zero keyboard problems that weren’t within normal wear and tear.
Every laptop manufacturer on the planet has keyboard complaints. It's one of the parts that can fail. Nobody has designed a failure proof mechanical keyboard.
As an anecdote, I’ve had at least a dozen Apple laptops (and other family members as well) going back over 20 years. No keyboard problems. And our PC laptops as well, even in our $250 Compaq laptop. No problems.
Both of our butterfly keyboard MacBooks (2015 MB 12 and 2016 MBP) have had keyboard problems.
On top of of that, add in sore fingers and slowed typing due to almost no key travel and more than average actuation to press the key. The 2015 MB in particular, is horrendous. I had to stop using it. Currently use a Bluetooth keyboard and just ordered a Dell laptop to replace the one MacBook.
Every laptop manufacturer on the planet has keyboard complaints. It's one of the parts that can fail. Nobody has designed a failure proof mechanical keyboard.
I’ve not had a keyboard failure on my MacBook Pro 3,1, my MacBook Pro 5,5, nor either of my two wired aluminum keyboards from around 2009-2010. I use them regularly (well, the 3,1 machine committed suicide by nvidia, but the keyboard was fine at the time).
I can’t recall ever having a keyboard failure on anything that’s younger than 30 years old. My only problematic keyboard is attached to a second-hand Atari ST.
I hear you. I have two Apple keyboards, one from a G3 and one from a G4. I switch them out once in awhile to clean, and they still work great after 15 plus years of typing.
Comments
and takes a week or more without your laptop. That is not only ridiculous it's an incredible waste from a company that's supposed to be environmentally friendly. All for a few mm of thinness. You used to be able to do swap out the keyboards on the iBooks without even a tool. There is a happy medium.
Whatever kind of keyboard my mid-2010 15" MBP has.... Apple should go back to it.
9 years of lots of typing. It's great; no problems.
(I don't use it in a sandpit though, and I don't dump liquids in it...)
The last Macbook I owned was a 2007 Blackbook, and I liked the keyboard on that one. I'm not sure if I would like one of the newer models.
I'm a fan of thinner, when it comes to iPhones and iPads, but I do miss the keyboards of old on newer products like laptops and desktops.
I recently restored one of my old Apple keyboards from 1999 and I made it brand new again. Works fine and it is not paper thin and it has plenty of travel too.
What this doesn't tell us is, just what problem Apple's engineers tried to solve using this updated material. Send us your ideas!
So basically the iFixit teardown gives us no real insight into whether these changes are going to improve reliability yet everyone using their teardown to write their own stories is making assumptions this won’t change anything. I think The Verge, AI and others should get a unit and use it for a week before giving an opinion on the new keyboard.
And based on iFixit's material identification, and information based on our own knowledge and consultation with other material scientists, there's no giant changes made that will result in fewer Genius Bar trips for consumers. Perhaps fewer full replacements, in favor of the cleaning procedure at the store, but that's about it. I've discussed this more in-depth on the first page of this forum thread -- specifically post 12.
WRONG! Apple from 1995 - 2015 had zero keyboard problems that weren’t within normal wear and tear.
Both of our butterfly keyboard MacBooks (2015 MB 12 and 2016 MBP) have had keyboard problems.
On top of of that, add in sore fingers and slowed typing due to almost no key travel and more than average actuation to press the key. The 2015 MB in particular, is horrendous. I had to stop using it. Currently use a Bluetooth keyboard and just ordered a Dell laptop to replace the one MacBook.
If your butterfly keyboard fails you have only yourself to blame - you should not have pressed the keys.
Remember, “Look, don’t touch.” This will ensure you get many years of trouble free viewing of your new MacBook.