All this talk of "ethics"... one would have thought it grossly unethical to market a product as ready for release in mere weeks, and then string the public and paying customers along for four+ years.
Personally, I wavered because I wondered what the free gift was, and whether it was worth it. I tried asking what it was, but, apparently having taken ethics into equation, no-one would tell. After a few weeks, at the time, I simply decided it wasn't worth the trouble, and the money was better in my pocket than MK's - plus why reward an unethical person for whom it was no trouble to be unethical to start with?
Would still love to know what it is, or at least, was.
Two+ years later, no-one that knows is telling, and yet, the lack of ethics MK displays is widely tolerated, even celebrated as such in some circles for doing the "right" thing, understandably so, even though this supposedly right action was commenced by extremely unethical behaviour in launching a product that clearly was never meant to launch when initially promised.
If the product WAS meant to launch in just weeks, was in ineptitude or recklessness that caused it to be so lengthily delayed? I mean, does MK still beat his wife, as the well known question goes?
In any case, given MK's deviousness, I wonder if the various gifts each Tregger has been told are all different, simply so MK knows who spilled which bean where, and whether beanz meanz Heinz or something odiferously else?
Personally, I doubt it, doing so would take an even greater level of deviousness and fore planning than I think MK would stoop to, but he's stooped pretty low as it is, so who knows.
If the gift is of decent value, one then wonders how in heck MK was ever going to turn a profit on such advanced technology, one which would see MK earning a pretty penny, and his team of whoever knows how many in a range of what you'd imagine are decent salaries, too.
Startups fail all the time due to running out of money before the end of the month, or the sales figures, or the VC funding cycles, so... quite how WT can be kept afloat is a mystery.
MK might have a lot of his own money keeping things afloat, but the rich don't stay rich splurging their money on things that don't offer a return.
Legal fees are also quite large, in general, especially in the US (but anywhere), so yes, perhaps the solstice beckons in more ways that one.
Let's hope someone out there is ethical enough to reveal the free gift, especially someone that knows but who isn't bound to an NDA and who doesn't want to cross the great and powerfully pompous Markus Aurelius Knightonius.
Those who feel it is unethical to reveal the gift due to NDAs need not make any responses, it is not wanted or desired to hear from those ethical types of people, even though they will tolerate MK's diabolically unethical behaviour.
Another way to consider the issue is in the context of 'whistleblower' scenarios.
If an organization is doing something harmful, and you are party to that organization, or have non-disclosure agreements with that organization, you can legally and ethically disclose information about the organization if it would benefit the greater good.
There's always shades of gray of course, and obviously Mark Knighton's little operation doesn't rise to the level of Wikileaks vs NSA, but it's the same principle.
Ask yourself:
How/why is it essential/ethical/justified for 10,000+ customers to not know what the 'gift' is at this point, after everything that has happened thus far?
Give it some thought.
I hadn’t actually thought of whistleblower protections... Many jurisdictions have them specifically to ensure people in positions of power don’t have the ability to engage in unethical conduct using the fear of a power imbalance as a lever to have people remain silent.
I’d agree that it’s perfectly acceptable to enforce patent or commercially sensitive data that may put a company at a competitive advantage/disadvantage, but having something in there “because we don’t want to ruin the surprise...” is probably more of a goodwill issue rather than an NDA-specific issue - I’d seriously be surprised if it’s in any way enforceable (please don’t take my word for it though; I’m not a lawyer... not even playing one for pretend on TV )
is probably more of a goodwill issue rather than an NDA-specific issue - I’d seriously be surprised if it’s in any way enforceable
It's in the NDA, that makes it "NDA specific".
And it doesn't matter if it's enforceable or not. That isn't the way ethics work. You don't say, "I'm an ethical person because I don't steal, but the only reason I don't steal is because I'd go to prison if I did".
It's the old point about how a person behaves when no one is looking.
All this talk of "ethics"... one would have thought it grossly unethical to market a product as ready for release in mere weeks, and then string the public and paying customers along for four+ years.
Personally, I wavered because I wondered what the free gift was, and whether it was worth it. I tried asking what it was, but, apparently having taken ethics into equation, no-one would tell. After a few weeks, at the time, I simply decided it wasn't worth the trouble, and the money was better in my pocket than MK's - plus why reward an unethical person for whom it was no trouble to be unethical to start with?
I think that’s fair.
I also wonder whether it’s ethical to place unenforceable things in a contract (or an NDA...) - that in and of itself is problematic. I worked for an organisation which had a “get out of jail free...” clause in it which basically said “if anything in this contract turns out to have been illegal, then we didn’t mean it...” Now that was the most hilarious contract clause I’ve ever seen...!
We all accept there are limits; “I was just obeying orders...” has been demonstrated to be entirely illegal if the orders given were illegal ones. Illegal or inappropriate contract clauses are likewise entirely meaningless other than to cow someone in to behaving in a way you want them to even if you know you’re not supposed to be able to cow them in that regard... the act of knowingly doing so causes people to get in to significant trouble... They’re not worth the paper they’re printed on...
In any case, given MK's deviousness, I wonder if the various gifts each Tregger has been told are all different, simply so MK knows who spilled which bean where, and whether beanz meanz Heinz or something odiferously else?
Personally, I doubt it, doing so would take an even greater level of deviousness and fore planning than I think MK would stoop to, but he's stooped pretty low as it is, so who knows.
Thankfully, all it would take is for a few Treggers to communicate with each other to affirm the above is not the case.
I think Mark's deviousness, substantial though it may be, is limited by his intellect. (Am I complimenting him there? I'm not sure.) His plan was simply to sell a product that didn't exist, and let it play out. Not an original idea. Just a run of the mill scam that plenty of little owner/operator companies with zero business acumen inflict upon their customers these days.
The important distinction between a Kickstarter or Indiegogo and what Mark has done, is that most KS/IG campaigns are generally quite honest at the outset: we haven't built this yet, it doesn't work yet, we're not sure we even know how to build it, if you buy it you may never receive it, and so on. You can't really complain when a KS burns you under those terms.
What Mark has done is quite the opposite. He built a lie, one deceptive layer at a time, and for 4+ years he has just kept doubling down with the same lie over and over again. It will ready next week. Next Month. Next Summer. Next Fall.
He's so used to getting away with the lies, now he doesn't even bother to cover the latest lie with a new lie. He just goes MIA, as he did after a quick succession of lies following the May 2019 'update' failure. He knows that we know he's a liar. The jig is up. He no longer cares.
That is why I think revealing the 'gift' at this point is well within ethical bounds and perfectly justifiable. The customers who lent Mark Knighton their money deserve some consideration.
All this talk of "ethics"... one would have thought it grossly unethical to market a product as ready for release in mere weeks, and then string the public and paying customers along for four+ years.
Personally, I wavered because I wondered what the free gift was, and whether it was worth it. I tried asking what it was, but, apparently having taken ethics into equation, no-one would tell. After a few weeks, at the time, I simply decided it wasn't worth the trouble, and the money was better in my pocket than MK's - plus why reward an unethical person for whom it was no trouble to be unethical to start with?
I think that’s fair.
I also wonder whether it’s ethical to place unenforceable things in a contract (or an NDA...) - that in and of itself is problematic. I worked for an organisation which had a “get out of jail free...” clause in it which basically said “if anything in this contract turns out to have been illegal, then we didn’t mean it...” Now that was the most hilarious contract clause I’ve ever seen...!
We all accept there are limits; “I was just obeying orders...” has been demonstrated to be entirely illegal if the orders given were illegal ones. Illegal or inappropriate contract clauses are likewise entirely meaningless other than to cow someone in to behaving in a way you want them to even if you know you’re not supposed to be able to cow them in that regard... the act of knowingly doing so causes people to get in to significant trouble... They’re not worth the paper they’re printed on...
Not all Non Disclosure Agreements are equal...
Unenforceable clauses in contracts are often ruled unenforceable precisely because they are unethical. For example, the time period of a contract is often limited by state law to prevent one party from exercising control over another for too long. The Waytools NDA is aspiring to be in effect for almost 4 years now. There has to be a time limit. Context matters. The product was supposed to be released a long time ago.
The 'get out of jail free' clause you mention sounds more like a 'severablility' clause, which is generally acceptable, but it is usually worded to the effect of, 'if one part of this contract turns out to be totally unenforceable BS that we pulled out of our sphincters, then the rest of the contract remains in full effect'. That could be pertinent here: clauses in the NDA regarding protecting Waytools tech/trade secrets could remain in effect, independent of the clause that attempts to force people to keep a secret about a stupid 'gift' which is allegedly printed right on the packaging. Since so many people already know what it is, it is effectively not a secret any longer. We just have to find one Treg tester, or Treg family member, or Treg friend, who is willing to tell.
What lawful or ethical purpose could there be in binding someone to keep a secret about something which has no purpose except to entice or deceive other customers who have never received the product they paid for?
By the way, it's June 11th now Mark Knighton @WayTools_Support - what happened to that May update?
I hadn’t actually thought of whistleblower protections... Many jurisdictions have them specifically to ensure people in positions of power don’t have the ability to engage in unethical conduct using the fear of a power imbalance as a lever to have people remain silent.
I’d agree that it’s perfectly acceptable to enforce patent or commercially sensitive data that may put a company at a competitive advantage/disadvantage, but having something in there “because we don’t want to ruin the surprise...” is probably more of a goodwill issue rather than an NDA-specific issue - I’d seriously be surprised if it’s in any way enforceable (please don’t take my word for it though; I’m not a lawyer... not even playing one for pretend on TV )
You chaps are right though, using an NDA to protect your IP and commercial interests is fine, but the free gift thing is odd.
The public knowledge of the free gift is a bad thing or perceived to be so by WT. Which would contrast with their stated position that the gift is great.
A second Textblade has often been joked about as a fitting reward for the "top tiers" 4 years of delay, and if the company was delivering TB's anyway that does not seem like an issue certainly not a commercial one as the tier is undefined and can be shaped to minimise losses in event of a founder gold rush.
So probably not that. Could it be an as yet unmentioned part of WT's ecosystem of bullshit that they are trying for? Perhaps. If you had IP to protect that was patent-able you would apply for it. WT are not shy in their applications, but I have yet to see any evidence of a "new" thing. Certainly not one filed prior to the free gift being printed on the box lid.
It would certainly not ,on the face of it, be ethical for someone to sign an NDA and break it because they are frustrated with delays. At least in my opinion. However if there were some from of material damage, public safety issue or criminal act happening I could see a potential for whistleblower protections in those jurisdictions that have it. It's a high bar though. As for whether it's enforceable or not, it's not what one might call a "professional" document so if one has time to waste in court and a surplus of money...
It is astonishing that the information has not been leaked, although discussions with some TREG members have suggested that in the back of their mind there might be some loyalty test aspect to the disclosure of the free gift. They certainly see it as either a non-issue or one where the harm to others in their opinion is considerably less that the potential harm to themselves, which I can respect.
It is astonishing that the information has not been leaked, although discussions with some TREG members have suggested that in the back of their mind there might be some loyalty test aspect to the disclosure of the free gift. They certainly see it as either a non-issue or one where the harm to others in their opinion is considerably less that the potential harm to themselves
Or just maybe they think it is the right thing to keep their word. I don’t go around hitting people because the police may put me in jail. I wouldn’t do it anyway.
Btw, the whistle blower argument won’t work for this issue. Not telling what the gifts are isn’t about any wrong doing since there is nothing illegal or immoral about not telling.
So that hat argument is just about making excuses for violating an NDA.
You've used the word "ethics/ethical" 11 times in your post, but we don't agree on its definition, because you said:
Let's hope someone out there is ethical enough to reveal the free gift, especially someone that knows but who isn't bound to an NDA and who doesn't want to cross the great and powerfully pompous Markus Aurelius Knightonius.
Those who feel it is unethical to reveal the gift due to NDAs need not make any responses, it is not wanted or desired to hear from those ethical types of people, even though they will tolerate MK's diabolically unethical behaviour.
To ensure I am using a commonly accepted definition, here is one one from dictionary.com that several other dictionaries agree with:
ethical adjective - pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct. - being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, especially the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise. - (of drugs) sold only upon medical prescription.
The first definition is about "principles" and "morals", and "pertaining to right and wrong in conduct".
- Surprise Gift. A special Thank You for early adopters.
and:
A Gift, and a Principle.When something is entirely new, there are those forward thinkers who see its potential before all others.
Those who understand TextBlade and enthusiastically order it before general release, and share it with their friends – they are an important part of its success. The perceptiveness to recognize what distinguishes TextBlade, and the patience while we work to assure quality, deserve recognition.
When you receive your TextBlade, you'll discover a nice surprise. Every pre-order customer receives a gift. The earlier your order, the more substantial your gift. This progressive principle reflects our gratitude, and ensures that the earliest customers get the best deal. That is the way it should be, and we shall make it so.
For what it's worth, I heartily support giving "A special Thank You for early adopters" who have "the patience while we (WayTools) work to assure quality". So even if I were not bound by an agreement, I think the principle is correct.
TREG units ship in a Production Box, which has the gift printed on it. We are asked to keep the gift a secret, in case it isn't obvious what the following mean: - a "Surprise Gift" - "A special Thank You for early adopters" - "our gratitude" - "ensures that the earliest customers get the best deal"
Before choosing to accept being part of TREG, we are given the agreement in writing. No pressure. We can read it over and decide whether the terms are reasonable (they are) and whether we can operate under those terms (heck yeah).
The right thing to do is to follow the agreement (in letter and in spirit), because that's what an agreement is.
Why do you criticizing others for being unethical (factual or otherwise) and at the same time, explicitly demand that TREGgers do something clearly unethical? Isn't that hypocrisy?
Kindly reflect on your words:
MK's - plus why reward an unethical person for whom it was no trouble to be unethical to start with?
1. No personal attacks on members of AI.
I mean, does MK still beat his wife, as the well known question goes?
Actually, this is not a well-known question or allegory of which I am aware. May I suggest better language?
1. No personal attacks on members of AI.
commenced by extremely unethical behaviour in launching a product that clearly was never meant to launch when initially promised.
This was covered ad-nauseum: They thought they were close (TextBlade worked for them), but testing with a wider group revealed unexpected scenarios that necessitated fixes. Or just ponder this for a moment: why did even the very first TREG units ship in the Production Box?
Startups fail all the time due to running out of money before the end of the month, or the sales figures, or the VC funding cycles, so... quite how WT can be kept afloat is a mystery.
Too much pride, resulting in an unwillingness to see or listen
Taking advice from the wrong people
Lacking good mentorship
Lack of general and domain-specific business knowledge: finance, operations, and marketing
Raising too much money too soon
I don't think they have these issues!
1. No lack of focus on WayTools' part. It's all about TextBlade, the underlying technologies, and how TextBlade is used. 2. Everyone who has spoken with WayTools has a good sense of very strong motivation, commitment and passion. 3. They see, and they listen. They read the forums, and respond to questions, even inane ones. TREGgers report issues, they phone us so they see, they listen, they fix the issues. 4. Thank goodness they are don't follow the majority of the "advice" proffered in forums! Can you imagine? 5. Judging by how they have curated the forums and encouraged kindness, that's as much as a non-employee can see for evidence of good mentorship. I haven't seen any bad examples. 6. I doubt they lack general knowledge (they've shipped products of great value before) or domain-specific knowledge. 7. I don't know their finances, but I don't see how that is a problem.
> MK might have a lot of his own money keeping things afloat, but the rich don't stay rich splurging their money on things that don't offer a return.
Actually, some of "the rich" are perfectly happy "splurging their money on things that don't offer a return". - Tim Cook and Apple: "we don't calculate the ROI on [things like accessibility]". - The Melinda and Bill Gates Foundation funds all sorts of projects to improve health in poor parts of the world.
I hope if you've got more money than you need, that you'll put it to good use.
It would certainly not ,on the face of it, be ethical for someone to sign an NDA and break it because they are frustrated with delays. At least in my opinion. However if there were some from of material damage, public safety issue or criminal act happening I could see a potential for whistleblower protections in those jurisdictions that have it. It's a high bar though. As for whether it's enforceable or not, it's not what one might call a "professional" document so if one has time to waste in court and a surplus of money...
How long do you think the NDA can be considered to remain in effect?
Suppose, quite believably at this point, that Mark Knighton continues to do what he has been doing for another 10 years. If you had signed the NDA, when would you no longer consider yourself bound by it?
If you reasonably concluded that Mark Knighton was willfully deceiving thousands of customers (by means of obfuscating the real causes of the delays etc all of it), and concluded that the 'gift' was a tool of that deception (the carrot), how would it not be ethical to reveal it?
I'm open to legit arguments (some people aren't capable of them mind you ahem we know who). Convince me that after 4+ years of Mark lying to people, its 'ethical' to maintain an arbitrary secret about a 'valuable gift' that was supposed to accompany a paid for and fulfilled order 4 years ago.
You've used the word "ethics/ethical" 11 times in your post, but we don't agree on its definition, because you said: What does WayTools say about the gift?
It is a:- Surprise Gift. A special Thank You for early adopters.
Are you an early supporter? Are you exhibiting "the patience while we work to assure quality"?
Before TREGgers receive their units (shipped in the Production Box), we are asked to keep the gift a secret. Just in case it isn't abundantly clear what these words mean: - a "Surprise Gift" - "A special Thank You for early adopters" - "our gratitude" - "ensures that the earliest customers get the best deal"
Wow! It's the other half of Mark Knighton's cheer-leading squad.
Just for reference here: aren't you the guy who compared Mark Knighton to Mozart, Beethoven, and da Vinci? (whoa credibility!)
Colin, you are actually more ridiculous than Kahuna. Just not as verbose (nobody could be as verbose), on average, though that post was definitely a challenge to the King.
Regardless of @alexonline 's status, My status is early adopter and customer, and my perspective is that Mark Knighton is a lying scumbag, and my perspective is that the 'gift' is nothing more than another tool, much like his deceptive web site, to ensnare more people into lending him their money so he can fail to complete his unfinished product.
Aren't you ashamed by his recent disappearance after the May update deadline? I mean seriously, don't you just want to go hide under your covers and never come out of your room after so closely associating yourself with such an embarrassing lying failure?
commenced by extremely unethical behaviour in launching a product that clearly was never meant to launch when initially promised.
This was covered ad-nauseum: They thought they were close (TextBlade worked for them), but testing with a wider group revealed unexpected scenarios that necessitated fixes.
The only thing that is ad-nauseating about that ridiculous lie is how many times you and your ilk repeat it, as if saying it was so makes it so. Fail.
You've used the word "ethics/ethical" 11 times in your post, but we don't agree on its definition, because you said: What does WayTools say about the gift?
It is a:- Surprise Gift. A special Thank You for early adopters.
Are you an early supporter? Are you exhibiting "the patience while we work to assure quality"?
Before TREGgers receive their units (shipped in the Production Box), we are asked to keep the gift a secret. Just in case it isn't abundantly clear what these words mean: - a "Surprise Gift" - "A special Thank You for early adopters" - "our gratitude" - "ensures that the earliest customers get the best deal"
Wow! It's the other half of Mark Knighton's cheer-leading squad.
Just for reference here: aren't you the guy who compared Mark Knighton to Mozart, Beethoven, and da Vinci? (whoa credibility!)
Colin, you are actually more ridiculous than Kahuna. Just not as verbose (nobody could be as verbose), on average, though that post was definitely a challenge to the King.
Regardless of @alexonline 's status, MY status is early adopter and customer, and MY perspective is that Mark Knighton is a lying scumbag, and MY perspective is that the 'gift' is nothing more than another tool, much like his deceptive web site, to ensnare more people into lending him their money so he can fail to complete his unfinished product.
Aren't you ashamed by his recent disappearance after the May update deadline? I mean seriously, don't you just want to go hide under your covers and never come out of your room after so closely associating yourself with such an embarrassing lying failure?
I was an early supporter - Jan 15 2015. I waited two plus years, but Mark’s unethical behaviour and that of his ethics-challenged cheerleaders put me off.
You are also the person, in your latest post at Waytools, to bully and discriminate against the punctuationally voice-to-text challenged.
The message was clear - and your put down and dismissal of that message was also clear.
Too much pride, resulting in an unwillingness to see or listen
Taking advice from the wrong people
Lacking good mentorship
Lack of general and domain-specific business knowledge: finance, operations, and marketing
Raising too much money too soon
I don't think they have these issues!
1. No lack of focus on WayTools' part. It's all about TextBlade, the underlying technologies, and how TextBlade is used. 2. Everyone who has spoken with WayTools has a good sense of very strong motivation, commitment and passion. 3. They see, and they listen. They read the forums, and respond to questions, even inane ones. TREGgers report issues, they phone us so they see, they listen, they fix the issues. 4. Thank goodness they are not taking the truckloads of "business advice" from these forums, given to them, or to Apple. Can you imagine? 5. Judging by how they have curated the forums and encouraged kindness, that's as much as a non-employee can see for evidence of good mentorship. I haven't seen any bad examples. 6. I doubt they lack general knowledge (they've shipped products of great value before) or domain-specific knowledge. 7. I don't know their finances, but I don't see how that is a problem.
1. Review the post history of @WayTools_Support on this forum, and explain to us all how the personality (Mark Knighton) behind that screen name is 'focused' on his work when he is on the internet at all hours of the day and night attacking his former customers.
2. Everything about this debacle refutes #2. Everyone who has spoken with Waytools you say? Hmmm. Perhaps you could rephrase that a bit as 'everyone who has not been banned and thus is still able to speak to Waytools'. Every critic has been banned. Many non-critics have been banned. Emails are not answered. Phones are not answered. Forum is locked. It's like Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind: for every one person who made it this far, there must have been thousands of others!
3. How much advice has Mark Knighton taken into consideration with regards to his inability to communicate, and the ugly PR debacle he has created? Can you name another CEO in recent memory who has interacted more poorly or more abusively or more incompetently with his customers on a regular basis? (Hint: it has to be a CEO who has also failed to ship any products to his customers - you have to compare 'Apples' to 'Apples', not 'Waytools' to 'Apples')
4. The advice has been pretty consistent: if the product actually works, release it. After all, we paid for it 4+ years ago.
5. You haven't seen all the ugly paranoid stuff Mark Knighton has said to his customers, on his forum, and here? Scroll back a little and review some links.
6. Stop lying. Mark Knighton has never shipped a product in quantity before. You can probably count the number of 3D scanners he shipped on one hand. Mark Knighton is in the business of making very expensive and barely functional prototypes. He is a complete failure at shipping his widely promoted consumer product, which was announced as ready to ship 4+ years ago.
7. They clearly don't have enough money to get the job done, even after collecting millions and loaning out only 131 unfinished prototypes. Mark Knighton is a failure at budgeting, scheduling, organizing, engineering, predicting, evaluating, and executing.
Just for reference here: aren't you the guy who compared Mark Knighton to Mozart, Beethoven, and da Vinci? (whoa credibility!)
And thanks for the flattery. I'm not important enough to quote, but it seems the time has come that I actually have to, um, quote myself:
Colin said:
"good-ish" is very predictable. You can produce that on budget, on schedule. It's repeatable like factory work. You can churn out a bunch of good-ish novels one after another.
But great stuff? There's a reason, hundreds of years after they have passed away, everyone knows: Mozart, Beethoven, Leonard Da Vinci.
If you want stuff that can be churned out on schedule - get it on Amazon (same day!), find it with Google, or AliExpress. In fact, I don't need to mention those places - because you already know where to find run-of-the-mill stuff. There are many pages in the WayTools forums where people constantly post the latest keyboard. I happen to like not wasting my money. Most tech enthusiasts can recall owing a product that sat unused in the bottom of a drawer.
I believe I equated Mozart, Beethoven, and Leonardo Da Vinci with "But great stuff?"
I was an early supporter - Jan 15 2015. I waited two plus years, but Mark’s unethical behaviour and that of his ethics-challenged cheerleaders put me off.
You _were_. You cancelled. I believe they even let you reinstate your order without losing your place in line. To cancel is your choice. Not receiving the gift is the unfortunate but understandable consequence.
Asking people to reveal the gift is not ethical. Don't charge others of being "ethics-challenged" until you stop doing that yourself.
You are also the person, in your latest post at Waytools, to bully and discriminate against the punctuationally voice-to-text challenged.
The message was clear - and your put down and dismissal of that message was also clear.
Shame on you, ColinG, for being punctuationalist!
I acknowledge that I am nowhere near as kind as DaBigKahuna, or Mark. It's something I could improve upon.
But spewing a paragraph without punctuation?
I was taught this: when writing, think of the audience. Were you also taught this? Weren't we all taught this?
How does "think of the audience" becoming spewing random garbage and hoping others would take time out of their busy day, to reconstruct salient sentences from mishmash? And I didn't shame him. I offered specific, actionable criticism. If you want people to read your thoughts, write them in a way that shows you care that the thought is read.
Or put another way, don't view your time as more important than the time of all the collective readers.
Is that not "common courtesy"? Of has that also gone the way of "common sense"?
I acknowledge that I am not without fault. Or that I could word things better.
But I stand by what I suggest. I suggest proper sentence structure. I also suggest paying our taxes fair and square, not hiding income, etc.
To ensure I am using a commonly accepted definition, here is one one from dictionary.com that several other dictionaries agree with:
ethical adjective - pertaining to or dealing with morals or the principles of morality; pertaining to right and wrong in conduct. - being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or practice, especially the standards of a profession: It was not considered ethical for physicians to advertise. - (of drugs) sold only upon medical prescription.
In the spirit of ColinNG, some arbitrary smug copy/paste advice:
The Value of Meeting Deadlines in Business
Consistently meeting deadlines is a cornerstone of a successful small business’s reputation. Deadlines are essential, especially in businesses that work with specific time constraints, like publishing, delivery services and supply chains. Failure to meet deadlines on a regular basis can create a negative image of your business and cost you money.
Demonstrated Dependability
When you continually deliver on time, you establish a reputation for being a reliable and dependable business. This can increase consumer confidence and help build a repeat customer base. Your customers know they can count on you to do what you say when you say you will do it. They’ll share this information with others, which can build your referral business.
Cost Savings
Missed deadlines have the potential to be costly, particularly if they cause you to lose a customer or force you to pay extra for something like rush shipping or rush printing. Staying on deadline ensures you also stay on budget for projects, a financial benefit that can add up over time.
Professionalism
Meeting deadlines demonstrates a professional attitude toward the way you run your business and view your customers. A small business often has to provide superior levels of service to compete with its larger counterparts, and being reliable and customer-focused can help achieve that goal.
Respect
In a small-business environment, there is often interconnectivity and overlap between positions and departments. If one team member fails to meet a deadline, it can create a domino effect in which colleagues and co-workers subsequently are faced with missing their own deadlines or working in excess to make up for someone else's slack. Meeting deadlines shows a respect for your own work product as well as for the time of your co-workers.
Time Management
Missed deadlines are usually a sign of poor time management. If this is the case in your small business, it's an indication of deeper problems related to ineffective project planning, use of time and resources and scheduling. If your staff regularly misses deadlines, conduct an internal time management audit and look for ways to eliminate time-wasters and keep projects, work schedules and orders on track.
Managing Deadlines
Set reasonable deadlines to ensure employees don’t look for excuses to miss them. Publish deadlines, issue reminders of upcoming due dates and penalize repeat offenders. Pad deadlines if necessary to build in extra time, but don’t tell employees about this sleight-of-of-hand, or they'll always assume they have extra time.
Individuals who consistently miss deadlines are detrimental to the health of your team and organisational growth. The only solution for managers is to address the problem head on. [a serious problem if the person as issue is the manager] If we want to avoid cynicism within the team, reductions in individual morale, increases in employee turnover, and reduced organisational performance, we need to overcome our personal distaste for difficult conversations and provide employees with the feedback they need to improve. [impossible if the CEO is the issue]
Deadlines
Why deadlines work
Deadlines work because they force critical thinking by adding a constraint. When a deadline is set on a project, magical things happen.
Teams are forced to work backwards from launch — A deadline forces your team to confront what must exist at launch, and the by-product of that is a realistic list of all the work to be done.
Teams must prioritize ruthlessly — Since you have a list of what needs to get done and a fixed time to do it, teams are forced to decide how much time they’re willing to allocate to each item.
Teams know if they’re on pace — open ended projects mean you can never know if you’re progressing too slow or fast. A deadline creates a benchmark.
Teams combat human nature — People aren’t lazy but they don’t default to urgency either. Parkinson’s law explains this best, “work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.”
Teams are compelled to ship faster than they otherwise would have — most teams dream of their product in a perfect end-state, and sometimes that dream can create an inertia to ship. Deadlines combat this by providing an externality to help teams justify shipping an imperfect product.
45 Bosses Explain How to Be Late
1. Tell the Truth
2. Admit it in Advance
3. Drop the Excuses
4. Give Helpful Details
5. Accept Responsibility
6. Stop Disturbing Others Upon Your Arrival
7. Don't Kiss Up
8. Do Something About It
9. Apologize
10. Help to Plan Accordingly
11. Be Honest, Even if You're Just Hungover
12. Send Over Important Documents
13. Share What You Learned
14. Make up for Lost Time
15. Give Your Boss FOMO
16. Stop Wasting More Time
17. Give an Accurate ETA
18. Communicate for Coverage
19. Prove That it Won't Be an Ongoing Issue
20. Don't Lie Because You Feel Ashamed
21. Communicate
22. Take Initiative
22. Quit Justifying and Just Get to Work
23. Tell a Good Story
24. Ask for Help
25. Make a Plan for the Future
26. Send a Quick Ping
27. Try Harder
28. Don't Waste Your Energy by Getting Worked up over It
29. Don't Exploit Your Employer's Trust
30. Recognize the Impact of Your Tardiness
31. Set an Earlier Alarm
32. Prepare Your Lunch the Night Before
33. Have an Easier Breakfast
34. Check Your Gas Tank Before You Have to Hit the Road
35. Check the Weather in the Morning
36. Check for Traffic
37. Get to Bed Earlier
38. Live a Healthier Lifestyle
39. Don't Wait to Tell Your Boss You're Late Until After You're Late
40. Don't Wait to Tell Your Team You're Late Until After You're Late
41. Don't Expect Your Boss to Inform Your Team for You
42. Don't Expect Your Team to Inform Your Boss for You
Comments
Personally, I wavered because I wondered what the free gift was, and whether it was worth it. I tried asking what it was, but, apparently having taken ethics into equation, no-one would tell. After a few weeks, at the time, I simply decided it wasn't worth the trouble, and the money was better in my pocket than MK's - plus why reward an unethical person for whom it was no trouble to be unethical to start with?
Would still love to know what it is, or at least, was.
Two+ years later, no-one that knows is telling, and yet, the lack of ethics MK displays is widely tolerated, even celebrated as such in some circles for doing the "right" thing, understandably so, even though this supposedly right action was commenced by extremely unethical behaviour in launching a product that clearly was never meant to launch when initially promised.
If the product WAS meant to launch in just weeks, was in ineptitude or recklessness that caused it to be so lengthily delayed? I mean, does MK still beat his wife, as the well known question goes?
In any case, given MK's deviousness, I wonder if the various gifts each Tregger has been told are all different, simply so MK knows who spilled which bean where, and whether beanz meanz Heinz or something odiferously else?
Personally, I doubt it, doing so would take an even greater level of deviousness and fore planning than I think MK would stoop to, but he's stooped pretty low as it is, so who knows.
If the gift is of decent value, one then wonders how in heck MK was ever going to turn a profit on such advanced technology, one which would see MK earning a pretty penny, and his team of whoever knows how many in a range of what you'd imagine are decent salaries, too.
Startups fail all the time due to running out of money before the end of the month, or the sales figures, or the VC funding cycles, so... quite how WT can be kept afloat is a mystery.
MK might have a lot of his own money keeping things afloat, but the rich don't stay rich splurging their money on things that don't offer a return.
Legal fees are also quite large, in general, especially in the US (but anywhere), so yes, perhaps the solstice beckons in more ways that one.
Let's hope someone out there is ethical enough to reveal the free gift, especially someone that knows but who isn't bound to an NDA and who doesn't want to cross the great and powerfully pompous Markus Aurelius Knightonius.
Those who feel it is unethical to reveal the gift due to NDAs need not make any responses, it is not wanted or desired to hear from those ethical types of people, even though they will tolerate MK's diabolically unethical behaviour.
I’d agree that it’s perfectly acceptable to enforce patent or commercially sensitive data that may put a company at a competitive advantage/disadvantage, but having something in there “because we don’t want to ruin the surprise...” is probably more of a goodwill issue rather than an NDA-specific issue - I’d seriously be surprised if it’s in any way enforceable (please don’t take my word for it though; I’m not a lawyer... not even playing one for pretend on TV
I also wonder whether it’s ethical to place unenforceable things in a contract (or an NDA...) - that in and of itself is problematic. I worked for an organisation which had a “get out of jail free...” clause in it which basically said “if anything in this contract turns out to have been illegal, then we didn’t mean it...” Now that was the most hilarious contract clause I’ve ever seen...!
We all accept there are limits; “I was just obeying orders...” has been demonstrated to be entirely illegal if the orders given were illegal ones. Illegal or inappropriate contract clauses are likewise entirely meaningless other than to cow someone in to behaving in a way you want them to even if you know you’re not supposed to be able to cow them in that regard... the act of knowingly doing so causes people to get in to significant trouble... They’re not worth the paper they’re printed on...
Not all Non Disclosure Agreements are equal...
I think Mark's deviousness, substantial though it may be, is limited by his intellect. (Am I complimenting him there? I'm not sure.) His plan was simply to sell a product that didn't exist, and let it play out. Not an original idea. Just a run of the mill scam that plenty of little owner/operator companies with zero business acumen inflict upon their customers these days.
The important distinction between a Kickstarter or Indiegogo and what Mark has done, is that most KS/IG campaigns are generally quite honest at the outset: we haven't built this yet, it doesn't work yet, we're not sure we even know how to build it, if you buy it you may never receive it, and so on. You can't really complain when a KS burns you under those terms.
What Mark has done is quite the opposite. He built a lie, one deceptive layer at a time, and for 4+ years he has just kept doubling down with the same lie over and over again. It will ready next week. Next Month. Next Summer. Next Fall.
He's so used to getting away with the lies, now he doesn't even bother to cover the latest lie with a new lie. He just goes MIA, as he did after a quick succession of lies following the May 2019 'update' failure. He knows that we know he's a liar. The jig is up. He no longer cares.
That is why I think revealing the 'gift' at this point is well within ethical bounds and perfectly justifiable. The customers who lent Mark Knighton their money deserve some consideration.
The 'get out of jail free' clause you mention sounds more like a 'severablility' clause, which is generally acceptable, but it is usually worded to the effect of, 'if one part of this contract turns out to be totally unenforceable BS that we pulled out of our sphincters, then the rest of the contract remains in full effect'. That could be pertinent here: clauses in the NDA regarding protecting Waytools tech/trade secrets could remain in effect, independent of the clause that attempts to force people to keep a secret about a stupid 'gift' which is allegedly printed right on the packaging. Since so many people already know what it is, it is effectively not a secret any longer. We just have to find one Treg tester, or Treg family member, or Treg friend, who is willing to tell.
What lawful or ethical purpose could there be in binding someone to keep a secret about something which has no purpose except to entice or deceive other customers who have never received the product they paid for?
By the way, it's June 11th now Mark Knighton @WayTools_Support - what happened to that May update?
The public knowledge of the free gift is a bad thing or perceived to be so by WT. Which would contrast with their stated position that the gift is great.
A second Textblade has often been joked about as a fitting reward for the "top tiers" 4 years of delay, and if the company was delivering TB's anyway that does not seem like an issue certainly not a commercial one as the tier is undefined and can be shaped to minimise losses in event of a founder gold rush.
So probably not that. Could it be an as yet unmentioned part of WT's ecosystem of bullshit that they are trying for? Perhaps. If you had IP to protect that was patent-able you would apply for it. WT are not shy in their applications, but I have yet to see any evidence of a "new" thing. Certainly not one filed prior to the free gift being printed on the box lid.
It would certainly not ,on the face of it, be ethical for someone to sign an NDA and break it because they are frustrated with delays. At least in my opinion. However if there were some from of material damage, public safety issue or criminal act happening I could see a potential for whistleblower protections in those jurisdictions that have it. It's a high bar though. As for whether it's enforceable or not, it's not what one might call a "professional" document so if one has time to waste in court and a surplus of money...
It is astonishing that the information has not been leaked, although discussions with some TREG members have suggested that in the back of their mind there might be some loyalty test aspect to the disclosure of the free gift. They certainly see it as either a non-issue or one where the harm to others in their opinion is considerably less that the potential harm to themselves, which I can respect.
R
I vote Sira as Chairman of the Board at Waytools. Do we have a second for the motion?
Down with Mark Knighton! Booooo!!!! Force that lunatic into retirement and let someone who knows what they are doing run the company!
Btw, the whistle blower argument won’t work for this issue. Not telling what the gifts are isn’t about any wrong doing since there is nothing illegal or immoral about not telling.
So that hat argument is just about making excuses for violating an NDA.
You've used the word "ethics/ethical" 11 times in your post, but we don't agree on its definition, because you said:
To ensure I am using a commonly accepted definition, here is one one from dictionary.com that several other dictionaries agree with:
The first definition is about "principles" and "morals", and "pertaining to right and wrong in conduct".
What does WayTools say about the gift?
It is a:
and:
For what it's worth, I heartily support giving "A special Thank You for early adopters" who have "the patience while we (WayTools) work to assure quality". So even if I were not bound by an agreement, I think the principle is correct.
TREG units ship in a Production Box, which has the gift printed on it. We are asked to keep the gift a secret, in case it isn't obvious what the following mean:
- a "Surprise Gift"
- "A special Thank You for early adopters"
- "our gratitude"
- "ensures that the earliest customers get the best deal"
Before choosing to accept being part of TREG, we are given the agreement in writing. No pressure. We can read it over and decide whether the terms are reasonable (they are) and whether we can operate under those terms (heck yeah).
The right thing to do is to follow the agreement (in letter and in spirit), because that's what an agreement is.
Why do you criticizing others for being unethical (factual or otherwise) and at the same time, explicitly demand that TREGgers do something clearly unethical? Isn't that hypocrisy?
Kindly reflect on your words:
1. No personal attacks on members of AI.
Actually, this is not a well-known question or allegory of which I am aware. May I suggest better language?
1. No personal attacks on members of AI.
This was covered ad-nauseum: They thought they were close (TextBlade worked for them), but testing with a wider group revealed unexpected scenarios that necessitated fixes. Or just ponder this for a moment: why did even the very first TREG units ship in the Production Box?
From entrepreneur.com:
Why do companies fail?
According to an article in FastCompany, "Why Most Venture Backed Companies Fail," :
- Lack of focus
- Lack of motivation, commitment and passion
- Too much pride, resulting in an unwillingness to see or listen
- Taking advice from the wrong people
- Lacking good mentorship
- Lack of general and domain-specific business knowledge: finance, operations, and marketing
- Raising too much money too soon
I don't think they have these issues!1. No lack of focus on WayTools' part. It's all about TextBlade, the underlying technologies, and how TextBlade is used.
2. Everyone who has spoken with WayTools has a good sense of very strong motivation, commitment and passion.
3. They see, and they listen. They read the forums, and respond to questions, even inane ones. TREGgers report issues, they phone us so they see, they listen, they fix the issues.
4. Thank goodness they are don't follow the majority of the "advice" proffered in forums! Can you imagine?
5. Judging by how they have curated the forums and encouraged kindness, that's as much as a non-employee can see for evidence of good mentorship. I haven't seen any bad examples.
6. I doubt they lack general knowledge (they've shipped products of great value before) or domain-specific knowledge.
7. I don't know their finances, but I don't see how that is a problem.
> MK might have a lot of his own money keeping things afloat, but the rich don't stay rich splurging their money on things that don't offer a return.
Actually, some of "the rich" are perfectly happy "splurging their money on things that don't offer a return".
- Tim Cook and Apple: "we don't calculate the ROI on [things like accessibility]".
- The Melinda and Bill Gates Foundation funds all sorts of projects to improve health in poor parts of the world.
I hope if you've got more money than you need, that you'll put it to good use.
Colin
Suppose, quite believably at this point, that Mark Knighton continues to do what he has been doing for another 10 years. If you had signed the NDA, when would you no longer consider yourself bound by it?
If you reasonably concluded that Mark Knighton was willfully deceiving thousands of customers (by means of obfuscating the real causes of the delays etc all of it), and concluded that the 'gift' was a tool of that deception (the carrot), how would it not be ethical to reveal it?
I'm open to legit arguments (some people aren't capable of them mind you ahem we know who). Convince me that after 4+ years of Mark lying to people, its 'ethical' to maintain an arbitrary secret about a 'valuable gift' that was supposed to accompany a paid for and fulfilled order 4 years ago.
Just for reference here: aren't you the guy who compared Mark Knighton to Mozart, Beethoven, and da Vinci? (whoa credibility!)
Colin, you are actually more ridiculous than Kahuna. Just not as verbose (nobody could be as verbose), on average, though that post was definitely a challenge to the King.
Regardless of @alexonline 's status, My status is early adopter and customer, and my perspective is that Mark Knighton is a lying scumbag, and my perspective is that the 'gift' is nothing more than another tool, much like his deceptive web site, to ensnare more people into lending him their money so he can fail to complete his unfinished product.
Aren't you ashamed by his recent disappearance after the May update deadline? I mean seriously, don't you just want to go hide under your covers and never come out of your room after so closely associating yourself with such an embarrassing lying failure?
You are also the person, in your latest post at Waytools, to bully and discriminate against the punctuationally voice-to-text challenged.
The message was clear - and your put down and dismissal of that message was also clear.
Shame on you, ColinG, for being punctuationalist!
2. Everything about this debacle refutes #2. Everyone who has spoken with Waytools you say? Hmmm. Perhaps you could rephrase that a bit as 'everyone who has not been banned and thus is still able to speak to Waytools'. Every critic has been banned. Many non-critics have been banned. Emails are not answered. Phones are not answered. Forum is locked. It's like Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind: for every one person who made it this far, there must have been thousands of others!
3. How much advice has Mark Knighton taken into consideration with regards to his inability to communicate, and the ugly PR debacle he has created? Can you name another CEO in recent memory who has interacted more poorly or more abusively or more incompetently with his customers on a regular basis? (Hint: it has to be a CEO who has also failed to ship any products to his customers - you have to compare 'Apples' to 'Apples', not 'Waytools' to 'Apples')
4. The advice has been pretty consistent: if the product actually works, release it. After all, we paid for it 4+ years ago.
5. You haven't seen all the ugly paranoid stuff Mark Knighton has said to his customers, on his forum, and here? Scroll back a little and review some links.
6. Stop lying. Mark Knighton has never shipped a product in quantity before. You can probably count the number of 3D scanners he shipped on one hand. Mark Knighton is in the business of making very expensive and barely functional prototypes. He is a complete failure at shipping his widely promoted consumer product, which was announced as ready to ship 4+ years ago.
7. They clearly don't have enough money to get the job done, even after collecting millions and loaning out only 131 unfinished prototypes. Mark Knighton is a failure at budgeting, scheduling, organizing, engineering, predicting, evaluating, and executing.
Colin said:
I believe I equated Mozart, Beethoven, and Leonardo Da Vinci with "But great stuff?"
Of am I missing something here?
You _were_. You cancelled. I believe they even let you reinstate your order without losing your place in line. To cancel is your choice. Not receiving the gift is the unfortunate but understandable consequence.
Asking people to reveal the gift is not ethical. Don't charge others of being "ethics-challenged" until you stop doing that yourself.
I acknowledge that I am nowhere near as kind as DaBigKahuna, or Mark. It's something I could improve upon.
But spewing a paragraph without punctuation?
I was taught this: when writing, think of the audience. Were you also taught this? Weren't we all taught this?
How does "think of the audience" becoming spewing random garbage and hoping others would take time out of their busy day, to reconstruct salient sentences from mishmash? And I didn't shame him. I offered specific, actionable criticism. If you want people to read your thoughts, write them in a way that shows you care that the thought is read.
Or put another way, don't view your time as more important than the time of all the collective readers.
Is that not "common courtesy"? Of has that also gone the way of "common sense"?
I acknowledge that I am not without fault. Or that I could word things better.
But I stand by what I suggest. I suggest proper sentence structure. I also suggest paying our taxes fair and square, not hiding income, etc.
In the spirit of ColinNG, some arbitrary smug copy/paste advice:
Consistently meeting deadlines is a cornerstone of a successful small business’s reputation. Deadlines are essential, especially in businesses that work with specific time constraints, like publishing, delivery services and supply chains. Failure to meet deadlines on a regular basis can create a negative image of your business and cost you money.
Demonstrated Dependability
When you continually deliver on time, you establish a reputation for being a reliable and dependable business. This can increase consumer confidence and help build a repeat customer base. Your customers know they can count on you to do what you say when you say you will do it. They’ll share this information with others, which can build your referral business.
Cost Savings
Missed deadlines have the potential to be costly, particularly if they cause you to lose a customer or force you to pay extra for something like rush shipping or rush printing. Staying on deadline ensures you also stay on budget for projects, a financial benefit that can add up over time.
Professionalism
Meeting deadlines demonstrates a professional attitude toward the way you run your business and view your customers. A small business often has to provide superior levels of service to compete with its larger counterparts, and being reliable and customer-focused can help achieve that goal.
Respect
In a small-business environment, there is often interconnectivity and overlap between positions and departments. If one team member fails to meet a deadline, it can create a domino effect in which colleagues and co-workers subsequently are faced with missing their own deadlines or working in excess to make up for someone else's slack. Meeting deadlines shows a respect for your own work product as well as for the time of your co-workers.
Time Management
Missed deadlines are usually a sign of poor time management. If this is the case in your small business, it's an indication of deeper problems related to ineffective project planning, use of time and resources and scheduling. If your staff regularly misses deadlines, conduct an internal time management audit and look for ways to eliminate time-wasters and keep projects, work schedules and orders on track.
Managing Deadlines
Set reasonable deadlines to ensure employees don’t look for excuses to miss them. Publish deadlines, issue reminders of upcoming due dates and penalize repeat offenders. Pad deadlines if necessary to build in extra time, but don’t tell employees about this sleight-of-of-hand, or they'll always assume they have extra time.
Management Mistakes 101: Managing Missed Deadlines
To Sum Up…
Individuals who consistently miss deadlines are detrimental to the health of your team and organisational growth. The only solution for managers is to address the problem head on. [a serious problem if the person as issue is the manager] If we want to avoid cynicism within the team, reductions in individual morale, increases in employee turnover, and reduced organisational performance, we need to overcome our personal distaste for difficult conversations and provide employees with the feedback they need to improve. [impossible if the CEO is the issue]
Deadlines
Why deadlines work
Deadlines work because they force critical thinking by adding a constraint. When a deadline is set on a project, magical things happen.