There is a web app so I don't really see a moral question here. I think Apple's stance can be justified because the web app is available. The questions of how the regime behaves don't really have to be dealt with since there is no change in availability of the info. And besides, they deleted the app from the store, brought it back, and deleted it from the store again. It's not removed from your phone. They gave everyone who hadn't downloaded it another chance to get it. At this point anyone who wants it has it.
But the behavior of the Chinese government is very troubling. It goes from petty in their reaction to a tweet from the GM of the Houston Rockets, to grind house horror with how they treat ethnic minorities or anyone that is outside what they deem correct. To not acknowledge it is to be complicit. And once you acknowledge it you can't claim ignorance. How a corporation acts in China does matter. A corporation like Apple can do a lot bring about positive change but in doing so are they assisting a government that shows blatant disregard for human rights? A lot of you guys seem to know the answer, I think it's a difficult call. If you remove yourself from doing business in China you remove your voice from the discourse.
In the United States corporations have been able to change laws in states by taking a stand. Without getting into if that is OK or not OK, or if the laws that were changed were OK or not OK, the fact is that corporations have pressured states to change laws. Can corporations do that in China? Man, I just don't know.
The one that says you aren't allowed to aid and abet those who attack innocent civilians, destroy property both public & private, attack police and throw Molotov cocktails at them. That law.
You’re operating under a bullshit premise that everyone using the app to see where conflicts are are doing those things.
Also, what about laws that say oppressive regimes can’t intern, torture, murder, and harvest organs from a million of its own people?
...as reported by an international tribunal and the WaPa. Not made up right-wing fantasy as you’ve previously claimed.
What’s your personal connection to China?
Aiding and abetting criminals to commit crimes is both wrong and illegal -- regardless of the qualifications or rationalizations.
Would you be saying the same if another country or company provided strategic aid to law breakers/rioters/terrorists destroying property, attacking innocent citizens, disrupting society and attacking police here in the U.S.? I doubt it. You would be up in arms.
Your’re speaking jibberish again. Not everyone looking to see where the police and conflicts are are anarchist criminals. That’s absurd.
You sound like a little dictator. What’s your connection to nationalist China? Full disclosure, I have none, but studied Chinese and Uyghur culture in university, staying in Xinjiang for a couple of weeks.
I suppose this means Android will be growing its market share in China, since it's easier to root those devices and sideload apps that the government can't control onto them.
It won't be Google Android if you're discussing China. No idea how much control the Chinese Government exerts over the flavor patch of Android the Chinese OEM's offer.
Of notable interest: Google still (?) offers the Apple-banned-by-decree HKLive app in Google Play for their Hong Kong users. Google of course is nowhere near as inclined to appease the Chinese government. Still, that's no assurance they might not remove it anyway at some point. Neither Apple nor Google has officially commented.
Apple needs to make a choice - and by that I mean Tim Cook - they either stand for their social morals, as they say they do when it comes to anything in the US, Saudi Arabia etc or they don’t. But be consistent. To take the easy way out and grandstand in countries where Apple feels it will not be hurt monetarily but bend the knee to China only makes Tim and Apple come off as hypocrites.
My feeling is companies should be apolitical as the overall need to satisfy shareholders will always win out over political views when the stance taken will result in real harm to the company. And these are stickier situations compared to changing the keyboard on a MacBook. Stick to what you know Apple or take a stand for everyone everywhere. That’s the choice. Otherwise you expose yourselves as opportunistic wankers.
That opinion, that it’s shareholders above all else, is waning, as we see social and civic responsibility are more important. If a government is inhumane (kidnapping and murdering its own citizens, harvesting their organs, etc), it would be insane to suggest the corporate responsibility is to follow the policies of this government.
Life is political.
And that’s fine. If that is indeed the direction of corporate America, or at least Apple, then my main point still stands. Apple should exercise this relatively newfound positioning equally across every region it does business in.
I’m sure we are all against kidnapping, murdering citizens, and harvesting their organs. Yet as far as Apple’s concerned that’s ok when it comes to China. What stand are Apple taking there? It’s pretty clear Tim’s moral code has a limit and that limit smells like profit over civic responsibility.
I’m a big Apple products fan but this ability of Apple’s to look the other way when it’s politically expedient lessens their impact when they do speak up against say US policy. Having a moral or civic code means nothing if you only espouse it when it’s easy and you face no real consequences.
Saying that because one cannot change the laws in a foreign, authoritarian regime means one should not attempt to change the law’s in one’s home country, a non-authoritarian republic state ruled by the principles of democracy, is illogical. Of course a person (human or corporate) should attempt to affect change in their own country where the system of government is designed to allow just that.
Standing up to China on human rights issues is the job of the government. Corporations can do some messaging and posturing, but there's no reason to expect them to fall on their sword over something like this. I guess some people have been brainwashed into thinking business/government are two sides of the same coin? Not really the case if you want a healthy society. Unfortunately, the U.S. is currently run by an administration that is not all that concerned with human rights issues or promoting democracy over dictatorship.
Standing up to China on human rights issues is the job of the government. Corporations can do some messaging and posturing, but there's no reason to expect them to fall on their sword over something like this.
I would agree with you.
Apple chose to ignore your advice and make "core values" and "responsible actions" into a marketing plan. They've inserted themselves into the conversation with their high-profile and widely (self)reported resistance to government demands in their home country of America.
There are those here who chimed in about Google being evil and disingenuous by re-entering China after leaving there some years ago over privacy, interference, and censorship demands coming from their government. Ultimately Google chose the right path (IMO) and decided it was not in their best interests to do so. No longer any plans to re-enter China.
Apple promotes themselves as having only the best interests of their users in mind, going to the mat if necessary to protect them from evil government intrusion. So here we are with Apple bending knee in China. Not even a public statement expressing concerns. You don't see any disconnect from their actions and their PR speak? IMO you're not being honest if you say no.
Apple needs to make a choice - and by that I mean Tim Cook - they either stand for their social morals, as they say they do when it comes to anything in the US, Saudi Arabia etc or they don’t. But be consistent. To take the easy way out and grandstand in countries where Apple feels it will not be hurt monetarily but bend the knee to China only makes Tim and Apple come off as hypocrites.
My feeling is companies should be apolitical as the overall need to satisfy shareholders will always win out over political views when the stance taken will result in real harm to the company. And these are stickier situations compared to changing the keyboard on a MacBook. Stick to what you know Apple or take a stand for everyone everywhere. That’s the choice. Otherwise you expose yourselves as opportunistic wankers.
That opinion, that it’s shareholders above all else, is waning, as we see social and civic responsibility are more important. If a government is inhumane (kidnapping and murdering its own citizens, harvesting their organs, etc), it would be insane to suggest the corporate responsibility is to follow the policies of this government.
Life is political.
...
I’m sure we are all against kidnapping, murdering citizens, and harvesting their organs. Yet as far as Apple’s concerned that’s ok when it comes to China. What stand are Apple taking there? It’s pretty clear Tim’s moral code has a limit and that limit smells like profit over civic responsibility.
....
The trouble is: There is no evidence to support those claims -- no matter how often they are repeated. Actually, that pretty much applies to the U.S. as much or more than any other country. Kidnapping: Aside from all the kids taken from their mothers and put in cages, here a black teenager was jailed for 15 months for a crime it was proven he did not commit (he had a GPS ankle bracelet that showed he was at home when he crime was committed) and unarmed black men are regularly shot dead by police while our organ donations system is a mess.
That's not to trash the U.S. -- we're far from perfect but not evil. Just to point out that you can build a case against anybody or anything by cherry picking or distorting facts -- if you want to.
The one that says you aren't allowed to aid and abet those who attack innocent civilians, destroy property both public & private, attack police and throw Molotov cocktails at them. That law.
You’re operating under a bullshit premise that everyone using the app to see where conflicts are are doing those things.
Also, what about laws that say oppressive regimes can’t intern, torture, murder, and harvest organs from a million of its own people?
...as reported by an international tribunal and the WaPa. Not made up right-wing fantasy as you’ve previously claimed.
What’s your personal connection to China?
Aiding and abetting criminals to commit crimes is both wrong and illegal -- regardless of the qualifications or rationalizations.
Would you be saying the same if another country or company provided strategic aid to law breakers/rioters/terrorists destroying property, attacking innocent citizens, disrupting society and attacking police here in the U.S.? I doubt it. You would be up in arms.
Your’re speaking jibberish again. Not everyone looking to see where the police and conflicts are are anarchist criminals. That’s absurd.
You sound like a little dictator. What’s your connection to nationalist China? Full disclosure, I have none, but studied Chinese and Uyghur culture in university, staying in Xinjiang for a couple of weeks.
Because you choose to either not understand or do not want to agree does not make it gibberish. It mostly just shows that you have no argument.
For instance: "Not everyone..." is merely to distract from how the app was being used: to aid criminals, rioters and terrorists. Again, if a Chinese company did that here you would be screaming bloody murder rather than trying to justify it.
Added: Do I have a connection to China? No, I just don't buy into the propaganda from the right trying to trigger a second cold war with China -- that's just plain dumb. It's a war with no purpose and no winners -- just losers -- including us. We dealt with one cold war with China and don't need another. Both countries are far better off with cooperation than animosity and tit-for-tat vendettas.
Standing up to China on human rights issues is the job of the government. Corporations can do some messaging and posturing, but there's no reason to expect them to fall on their sword over something like this.
I would agree with you.
Apple chose to ignore your advice and make "core values" and "responsible actions" into a marketing plan. They've inserted themselves into the conversation with their high-profile and widely (self)reported resistance to government demands in their home country of America.
There are those here who chimed in about Google being evil and disingenuous by re-entering China after leaving there some years ago over privacy, interference, and censorship demands coming from their government. Ultimately Google chose the right path (IMO) and decided it was not in their best interests to do so. No longer any plans to re-enter China.
Apple promotes themselves as having only the best interests of their users in mind, going to the mat if necessary to protect them from evil government intrusion. So here we are with Apple bending knee in China. Not even a public statement expressing concerns. You don't see any disconnect from their actions and their PR speak? IMO you're not being honest if you say no.
Not quite: They aren't bending a knee to China. Instead, they are not willing to aid and abet rioters, criminals and terrorists by showing them how to avoid the police trying to enforce the laws and keep the peace.
Standing up to China on human rights issues is the job of the government. Corporations can do some messaging and posturing, but there's no reason to expect them to fall on their sword over something like this.
I would agree with you.
Apple chose to ignore your advice and make "core values" and "responsible actions" into a marketing plan. They've inserted themselves into the conversation with their high-profile and widely (self)reported resistance to government demands in their home country of America.
There are those here who chimed in about Google being evil and disingenuous by re-entering China after leaving there some years ago over privacy, interference, and censorship demands coming from their government. Ultimately Google chose the right path (IMO) and decided it was not in their best interests to do so. No longer any plans to re-enter China.
Apple promotes themselves as having only the best interests of their users in mind, going to the mat if necessary to protect them from evil government intrusion. So here we are with Apple bending knee in China. Not even a public statement expressing concerns. You don't see any disconnect from their actions and their PR speak? IMO you're not being honest if you say no.
Not quite: They aren't bending a knee to China. Instead, they are not willing to aid and abet rioters, criminals and terrorists by showing them how to avoid the police trying to enforce the laws and keep the peace.
I'd be more inclined to think you were trying to make a legitimate argument if you wouldn't continue to ignore my questions about Apple also banning the Quartz app reportedly at China's behest because they didn't like them reporting on the Hong Kong protests. How is that a law and order issue? Sure does look like Apple bending the knee.
Both apps are still available thru Google Play and no laws have been cited in support for removing them, or from Apple's App Store either for that matter.
I'm inclined to ask the same as StrangeDays did. Do you have some connection to China?
Standing up to China on human rights issues is the job of the government. Corporations can do some messaging and posturing, but there's no reason to expect them to fall on their sword over something like this.
I would agree with you.
Apple chose to ignore your advice and make "core values" and "responsible actions" into a marketing plan. They've inserted themselves into the conversation with their high-profile and widely (self)reported resistance to government demands in their home country of America.
There are those here who chimed in about Google being evil and disingenuous by re-entering China after leaving there some years ago over privacy, interference, and censorship demands coming from their government. Ultimately Google chose the right path (IMO) and decided it was not in their best interests to do so. No longer any plans to re-enter China.
Apple promotes themselves as having only the best interests of their users in mind, going to the mat if necessary to protect them from evil government intrusion. So here we are with Apple bending knee in China. Not even a public statement expressing concerns. You don't see any disconnect from their actions and their PR speak? IMO you're not being honest if you say no.
Not quite: They aren't bending a knee to China. Instead, they are not willing to aid and abet rioters, criminals and terrorists by showing them how to avoid the police trying to enforce the laws and keep the peace.
I'd be more inclined to think you were trying to make a legitimate argument if you wouldn't continue to ignore my questions about Apple also banning the Quartz app reportedly at China's behest because they didn't like them reporting on the Hong Kong protests. How is that a law and order issue? Sure does look like Apple bending the knee.
Both apps are still available thru Google Play and no laws have been cited in support for removing them, or from Apple's App Store either for that matter.
The only thing I know about quartz is that it makes for cool looking rocks. Here we are talking about an app used to aid and abet Criminals, rioters and terrorists to avoid the police who are trying to maintain law, order and peace.
Standing up to China on human rights issues is the job of the government. Corporations can do some messaging and posturing, but there's no reason to expect them to fall on their sword over something like this.
I would agree with you.
Apple chose to ignore your advice and make "core values" and "responsible actions" into a marketing plan. They've inserted themselves into the conversation with their high-profile and widely (self)reported resistance to government demands in their home country of America.
There are those here who chimed in about Google being evil and disingenuous by re-entering China after leaving there some years ago over privacy, interference, and censorship demands coming from their government. Ultimately Google chose the right path (IMO) and decided it was not in their best interests to do so. No longer any plans to re-enter China.
Apple promotes themselves as having only the best interests of their users in mind, going to the mat if necessary to protect them from evil government intrusion. So here we are with Apple bending knee in China. Not even a public statement expressing concerns. You don't see any disconnect from their actions and their PR speak? IMO you're not being honest if you say no.
Not quite: They aren't bending a knee to China. Instead, they are not willing to aid and abet rioters, criminals and terrorists by showing them how to avoid the police trying to enforce the laws and keep the peace.
I'd be more inclined to think you were trying to make a legitimate argument if you wouldn't continue to ignore my questions about Apple also banning the Quartz app reportedly at China's behest because they didn't like them reporting on the Hong Kong protests. How is that a law and order issue? Sure does look like Apple bending the knee.
Both apps are still available thru Google Play and no laws have been cited in support for removing them, or from Apple's App Store either for that matter.
The only thing I know about quartz is that it makes for cool looking rocks. Here we are talking about an app used to aid and abet Criminals, rioters and terrorists to avoid the police who are trying to maintain law, order and peace.
Standing up to China on human rights issues is the job of the government. Corporations can do some messaging and posturing, but there's no reason to expect them to fall on their sword over something like this.
I would agree with you.
Apple chose to ignore your advice and make "core values" and "responsible actions" into a marketing plan. They've inserted themselves into the conversation with their high-profile and widely (self)reported resistance to government demands in their home country of America.
There are those here who chimed in about Google being evil and disingenuous by re-entering China after leaving there some years ago over privacy, interference, and censorship demands coming from their government. Ultimately Google chose the right path (IMO) and decided it was not in their best interests to do so. No longer any plans to re-enter China.
Apple promotes themselves as having only the best interests of their users in mind, going to the mat if necessary to protect them from evil government intrusion. So here we are with Apple bending knee in China. Not even a public statement expressing concerns. You don't see any disconnect from their actions and their PR speak? IMO you're not being honest if you say no.
Not quite: They aren't bending a knee to China. Instead, they are not willing to aid and abet rioters, criminals and terrorists by showing them how to avoid the police trying to enforce the laws and keep the peace.
I'd be more inclined to think you were trying to make a legitimate argument if you wouldn't continue to ignore my questions about Apple also banning the Quartz app reportedly at China's behest because they didn't like them reporting on the Hong Kong protests. How is that a law and order issue? Sure does look like Apple bending the knee.
Both apps are still available thru Google Play and no laws have been cited in support for removing them, or from Apple's App Store either for that matter.
The only thing I know about quartz is that it makes for cool looking rocks. Here we are talking about an app used to aid and abet Criminals, rioters and terrorists to avoid the police who are trying to maintain law, order and peace.
I have read the facts of what is going on in Hong Kong and with the app that is the content of this thread. It's all that I need. If you want to trash Apple, we will file that under "Free Speech".
Standing up to China on human rights issues is the job of the government. Corporations can do some messaging and posturing, but there's no reason to expect them to fall on their sword over something like this.
I would agree with you.
Apple chose to ignore your advice and make "core values" and "responsible actions" into a marketing plan. They've inserted themselves into the conversation with their high-profile and widely (self)reported resistance to government demands in their home country of America.
There are those here who chimed in about Google being evil and disingenuous by re-entering China after leaving there some years ago over privacy, interference, and censorship demands coming from their government. Ultimately Google chose the right path (IMO) and decided it was not in their best interests to do so. No longer any plans to re-enter China.
Apple promotes themselves as having only the best interests of their users in mind, going to the mat if necessary to protect them from evil government intrusion. So here we are with Apple bending knee in China. Not even a public statement expressing concerns. You don't see any disconnect from their actions and their PR speak? IMO you're not being honest if you say no.
Not quite: They aren't bending a knee to China. Instead, they are not willing to aid and abet rioters, criminals and terrorists by showing them how to avoid the police trying to enforce the laws and keep the peace.
I'd be more inclined to think you were trying to make a legitimate argument if you wouldn't continue to ignore my questions about Apple also banning the Quartz app reportedly at China's behest because they didn't like them reporting on the Hong Kong protests. How is that a law and order issue? Sure does look like Apple bending the knee.
Both apps are still available thru Google Play and no laws have been cited in support for removing them, or from Apple's App Store either for that matter.
The only thing I know about quartz is that it makes for cool looking rocks. Here we are talking about an app used to aid and abet Criminals, rioters and terrorists to avoid the police who are trying to maintain law, order and peace.
I have read the facts of what is going on in Hong Kong and with the app that is the content of this thread. It's all that I need. If you want to trash Apple, we will file that under "Free Speech".
Free speech, while Apple removes a news source dedicated to free speech.
I don't think you have much respect for the right to free speech since you have zero appreciation for the non-violent participants in the Hong Kong protest exercising theirs, and risking severe physical harm to do so. They seem far more dedicated to protecting it than you are demonstrating as you prefer to turn a blind eye when others rights are trampled. Law and order Yeah!!
Hey as long as you got your rights it's all good, huh?
Apple needs to make a choice - and by that I mean Tim Cook - they either stand for their social morals, as they say they do when it comes to anything in the US, Saudi Arabia etc or they don’t. But be consistent. To take the easy way out and grandstand in countries where Apple feels it will not be hurt monetarily but bend the knee to China only makes Tim and Apple come off as hypocrites.
My feeling is companies should be apolitical as the overall need to satisfy shareholders will always win out over political views when the stance taken will result in real harm to the company. And these are stickier situations compared to changing the keyboard on a MacBook. Stick to what you know Apple or take a stand for everyone everywhere. That’s the choice. Otherwise you expose yourselves as opportunistic wankers.
That opinion, that it’s shareholders above all else, is waning, as we see social and civic responsibility are more important. If a government is inhumane (kidnapping and murdering its own citizens, harvesting their organs, etc), it would be insane to suggest the corporate responsibility is to follow the policies of this government.
Life is political.
And that’s fine. If that is indeed the direction of corporate America, or at least Apple, then my main point still stands. Apple should exercise this relatively newfound positioning equally across every region it does business in.
I’m sure we are all against kidnapping, murdering citizens, and harvesting their organs. Yet as far as Apple’s concerned that’s ok when it comes to China. What stand are Apple taking there? It’s pretty clear Tim’s moral code has a limit and that limit smells like profit over civic responsibility.
I’m a big Apple products fan but this ability of Apple’s to look the other way when it’s politically expedient lessens their impact when they do speak up against say US policy. Having a moral or civic code means nothing if you only espouse it when it’s easy and you face no real consequences.
Saying that because one cannot change the laws in a foreign, authoritarian regime means one should not attempt to change the law’s in one’s home country, a non-authoritarian republic state ruled by the principles of democracy, is illogical. Of course a person (human or corporate) should attempt to affect change in their own country where the system of government is designed to allow just that.
You’re moving the goal posts as I said nothing about changing laws. I’m not speaking to changing laws, I’m speaking to Apple’s selective moral standard. Speak out or don’t speak out. I don’t care. Just be consistent and have some backbone. Apple clearly lacks the moral courage to do so. This point is painfully clear.
The one that says you aren't allowed to aid and abet those who attack innocent civilians, destroy property both public & private, attack police and throw Molotov cocktails at them. That law.
You’re operating under a bullshit premise that everyone using the app to see where conflicts are are doing those things.
Also, what about laws that say oppressive regimes can’t intern, torture, murder, and harvest organs from a million of its own people?
...as reported by an international tribunal and the WaPa. Not made up right-wing fantasy as you’ve previously claimed.
What’s your personal connection to China?
Aiding and abetting criminals to commit crimes is both wrong and illegal -- regardless of the qualifications or rationalizations.
Would you be saying the same if another country or company provided strategic aid to law breakers/rioters/terrorists destroying property, attacking innocent citizens, disrupting society and attacking police here in the U.S.? I doubt it. You would be up in arms.
Your’re speaking jibberish again. Not everyone looking to see where the police and conflicts are are anarchist criminals. That’s absurd.
You sound like a little dictator. What’s your connection to nationalist China? Full disclosure, I have none, but studied Chinese and Uyghur culture in university, staying in Xinjiang for a couple of weeks.
Because you choose to either not understand or do not want to agree does not make it gibberish. It mostly just shows that you have no argument.
For instance: "Not everyone..." is merely to distract from how the app was being used: to aid criminals, rioters and terrorists. Again, if a Chinese company did that here you would be screaming bloody murder rather than trying to justify it.
Added: Do I have a connection to China? No, I just don't buy into the propaganda from the right trying to trigger a second cold war with China -- that's just plain dumb. It's a war with no purpose and no winners -- just losers -- including us. We dealt with one cold war with China and don't need another. Both countries are far better off with cooperation than animosity and tit-for-tat vendettas.
Your position is absolutely insane. First for your claims that the app is used by criminals and terrorists. Second for pretending the world’s increasing China problem is somehow a right-wing conspiracy — despite GLOBAL reports on China’s increasing human rights violations and recent headlines where the CCTV claimed Americans have no freedom of expression on matters of social stability. Is the WaPo right-wing? Nope. Or the London based international tribunal that exposed the organ harvesting of ethnic minorities? Nope. Critical response to the brutal, murderous, censoring authoritarian regime in China is wide, it doesn’t require a right-wing conspiracy. Remove your tinfoil hat if you’re not a nationalist astroturfer.
Just get off it already. Whatever reason you’re pretending China isn’t a brutal regime now headed by a “president for life” (dictator) isn’t because of Trump. Or you have issues. Because this was all reported on and during other presidents.
Apple needs to make a choice - and by that I mean Tim Cook - they either stand for their social morals, as they say they do when it comes to anything in the US, Saudi Arabia etc or they don’t. But be consistent. To take the easy way out and grandstand in countries where Apple feels it will not be hurt monetarily but bend the knee to China only makes Tim and Apple come off as hypocrites.
My feeling is companies should be apolitical as the overall need to satisfy shareholders will always win out over political views when the stance taken will result in real harm to the company. And these are stickier situations compared to changing the keyboard on a MacBook. Stick to what you know Apple or take a stand for everyone everywhere. That’s the choice. Otherwise you expose yourselves as opportunistic wankers.
That opinion, that it’s shareholders above all else, is waning, as we see social and civic responsibility are more important. If a government is inhumane (kidnapping and murdering its own citizens, harvesting their organs, etc), it would be insane to suggest the corporate responsibility is to follow the policies of this government.
Life is political.
And that’s fine. If that is indeed the direction of corporate America, or at least Apple, then my main point still stands. Apple should exercise this relatively newfound positioning equally across every region it does business in.
I’m sure we are all against kidnapping, murdering citizens, and harvesting their organs. Yet as far as Apple’s concerned that’s ok when it comes to China. What stand are Apple taking there? It’s pretty clear Tim’s moral code has a limit and that limit smells like profit over civic responsibility.
I’m a big Apple products fan but this ability of Apple’s to look the other way when it’s politically expedient lessens their impact when they do speak up against say US policy. Having a moral or civic code means nothing if you only espouse it when it’s easy and you face no real consequences.
Saying that because one cannot change the laws in a foreign, authoritarian regime means one should not attempt to change the law’s in one’s home country, a non-authoritarian republic state ruled by the principles of democracy, is illogical. Of course a person (human or corporate) should attempt to affect change in their own country where the system of government is designed to allow just that.
You’re moving the goal posts as I said nothing about changing laws. I’m not speaking to changing laws, I’m speaking to Apple’s selective moral standard. Speak out or don’t speak out. I don’t care. Just be consistent and have some backbone. Apple clearly lacks the moral courage to do so. This point is painfully clear.
I’m not. You clearly said that Apple (or any corp really) shouldn’t criticize or speak out in one arena (domestic) if they don’t in another (China). That’s whataboutism, and it’s a logical fallacy. A citizen of the democratic republic of the USA has much more ability to speak out (the point of which is to change the law, didn’t think that needed to be said) than they do abroad. Insisting they be silent in the US because they’re powerless in China is absurd. Corporations are people too, and people are free to pick and choose what issues they address and when they do so.
Apple needs to make a choice - and by that I mean Tim Cook - they either stand for their social morals, as they say they do when it comes to anything in the US, Saudi Arabia etc or they don’t. But be consistent. To take the easy way out and grandstand in countries where Apple feels it will not be hurt monetarily but bend the knee to China only makes Tim and Apple come off as hypocrites.
My feeling is companies should be apolitical as the overall need to satisfy shareholders will always win out over political views when the stance taken will result in real harm to the company. And these are stickier situations compared to changing the keyboard on a MacBook. Stick to what you know Apple or take a stand for everyone everywhere. That’s the choice. Otherwise you expose yourselves as opportunistic wankers.
That opinion, that it’s shareholders above all else, is waning, as we see social and civic responsibility are more important. If a government is inhumane (kidnapping and murdering its own citizens, harvesting their organs, etc), it would be insane to suggest the corporate responsibility is to follow the policies of this government.
Life is political.
And that’s fine. If that is indeed the direction of corporate America, or at least Apple, then my main point still stands. Apple should exercise this relatively newfound positioning equally across every region it does business in.
I’m sure we are all against kidnapping, murdering citizens, and harvesting their organs. Yet as far as Apple’s concerned that’s ok when it comes to China. What stand are Apple taking there? It’s pretty clear Tim’s moral code has a limit and that limit smells like profit over civic responsibility.
I’m a big Apple products fan but this ability of Apple’s to look the other way when it’s politically expedient lessens their impact when they do speak up against say US policy. Having a moral or civic code means nothing if you only espouse it when it’s easy and you face no real consequences.
Saying that because one cannot change the laws in a foreign, authoritarian regime means one should not attempt to change the law’s in one’s home country, a non-authoritarian republic state ruled by the principles of democracy, is illogical. Of course a person (human or corporate) should attempt to affect change in their own country where the system of government is designed to allow just that.
You’re moving the goal posts as I said nothing about changing laws. I’m not speaking to changing laws, I’m speaking to Apple’s selective moral standard. Speak out or don’t speak out. I don’t care. Just be consistent and have some backbone. Apple clearly lacks the moral courage to do so. This point is painfully clear.
I’m not. You clearly said that Apple (or any corp really) shouldn’t criticize or speak out in one arena (domestic) if they don’t in another (China). That’s whataboutism, and it’s a logical fallacy. A citizen of the democratic republic of the USA has much more ability to speak out (the point of which is to change the law, didn’t think that needed to be said) than they do abroad. Insisting they be silent in the US because they’re powerless in China is absurd. Corporations are people too, and people are free to pick and choose what issues they address and when they do so.
Absurd to you I suppose. Yet the double standard companies (beyond Apple - NBA for instance) apply when it comes China has caught up to them and they recognize it. Whether you feel that is an unfair criticism is immaterial. Apple has set their own standard, nobody else is responsible for that. They promote it. They seek to gain good PR from it. Yet Apple completely disregards it where it jeopardizes their business. Excusing Apple’s behaviour because the can’t affect change in China let’s them off the hook to easily. People everyday speak out when it puts their own interests at risk - case in point, the protesters in Hong Kong. That says everything about Apple and their moral code.
Standing up to China on human rights issues is the job of the government. Corporations can do some messaging and posturing, but there's no reason to expect them to fall on their sword over something like this.
I would agree with you.
Apple chose to ignore your advice and make "core values" and "responsible actions" into a marketing plan. They've inserted themselves into the conversation with their high-profile and widely (self)reported resistance to government demands in their home country of America.
There are those here who chimed in about Google being evil and disingenuous by re-entering China after leaving there some years ago over privacy, interference, and censorship demands coming from their government. Ultimately Google chose the right path (IMO) and decided it was not in their best interests to do so. No longer any plans to re-enter China.
Apple promotes themselves as having only the best interests of their users in mind, going to the mat if necessary to protect them from evil government intrusion. So here we are with Apple bending knee in China. Not even a public statement expressing concerns. You don't see any disconnect from their actions and their PR speak? IMO you're not being honest if you say no.
Not quite: They aren't bending a knee to China. Instead, they are not willing to aid and abet rioters, criminals and terrorists by showing them how to avoid the police trying to enforce the laws and keep the peace.
I'd be more inclined to think you were trying to make a legitimate argument if you wouldn't continue to ignore my questions about Apple also banning the Quartz app reportedly at China's behest because they didn't like them reporting on the Hong Kong protests. How is that a law and order issue? Sure does look like Apple bending the knee.
Both apps are still available thru Google Play and no laws have been cited in support for removing them, or from Apple's App Store either for that matter.
The only thing I know about quartz is that it makes for cool looking rocks. Here we are talking about an app used to aid and abet Criminals, rioters and terrorists to avoid the police who are trying to maintain law, order and peace.
I have read the facts of what is going on in Hong Kong and with the app that is the content of this thread. It's all that I need. If you want to trash Apple, we will file that under "Free Speech".
Free speech, while Apple removes a news source dedicated to free speech.
I don't think you have much respect for the right to free speech since you have zero appreciation for the non-violent participants in the Hong Kong protest exercising theirs, and risking severe physical harm to do so. They seem far more dedicated to protecting it than you are demonstrating as you prefer to turn a blind eye when others rights are trampled. Law and order Yeah!!
Hey as long as you got your rights it's all good, huh?
"Non-Violent? You must be getting your information from one of those sites dedicated to what is euphemistically called "Free Speech".
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But the behavior of the Chinese government is very troubling. It goes from petty in their reaction to a tweet from the GM of the Houston Rockets, to grind house horror with how they treat ethnic minorities or anyone that is outside what they deem correct. To not acknowledge it is to be complicit. And once you acknowledge it you can't claim ignorance. How a corporation acts in China does matter. A corporation like Apple can do a lot bring about positive change but in doing so are they assisting a government that shows blatant disregard for human rights? A lot of you guys seem to know the answer, I think it's a difficult call. If you remove yourself from doing business in China you remove your voice from the discourse.
In the United States corporations have been able to change laws in states by taking a stand. Without getting into if that is OK or not OK, or if the laws that were changed were OK or not OK, the fact is that corporations have pressured states to change laws. Can corporations do that in China? Man, I just don't know.
You sound like a little dictator. What’s your connection to nationalist China? Full disclosure, I have none, but studied Chinese and Uyghur culture in university, staying in Xinjiang for a couple of weeks.
Of notable interest: Google still (?) offers the Apple-banned-by-decree HKLive app in Google Play for their Hong Kong users. Google of course is nowhere near as inclined to appease the Chinese government. Still, that's no assurance they might not remove it anyway at some point. Neither Apple nor Google has officially commented.
Saying that because one cannot change the laws in a foreign, authoritarian regime means one should not attempt to change the law’s in one’s home country, a non-authoritarian republic state ruled by the principles of democracy, is illogical. Of course a person (human or corporate) should attempt to affect change in their own country where the system of government is designed to allow just that.
Apple chose to ignore your advice and make "core values" and "responsible actions" into a marketing plan. They've inserted themselves into the conversation with their high-profile and widely (self)reported resistance to government demands in their home country of America.
There are those here who chimed in about Google being evil and disingenuous by re-entering China after leaving there some years ago over privacy, interference, and censorship demands coming from their government. Ultimately Google chose the right path (IMO) and decided it was not in their best interests to do so. No longer any plans to re-enter China.
Apple promotes themselves as having only the best interests of their users in mind, going to the mat if necessary to protect them from evil government intrusion. So here we are with Apple bending knee in China. Not even a public statement expressing concerns. You don't see any disconnect from their actions and their PR speak? IMO you're not being honest if you say no.
That's not to trash the U.S. -- we're far from perfect but not evil. Just to point out that you can build a case against anybody or anything by cherry picking or distorting facts -- if you want to.
For instance: "Not everyone..." is merely to distract from how the app was being used: to aid criminals, rioters and terrorists. Again, if a Chinese company did that here you would be screaming bloody murder rather than trying to justify it.
Added: Do I have a connection to China? No, I just don't buy into the propaganda from the right trying to trigger a second cold war with China -- that's just plain dumb. It's a war with no purpose and no winners -- just losers -- including us. We dealt with one cold war with China and don't need another. Both countries are far better off with cooperation than animosity and tit-for-tat vendettas.
Both apps are still available thru Google Play and no laws have been cited in support for removing them, or from Apple's App Store either for that matter.
I'm inclined to ask the same as StrangeDays did. Do you have some connection to China?
https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/10/09/news-app-quartz-removed-from-chinese-app-store-amidst-hong-kong-protests
Is that how you really want to be known, disingenuous?
I don't think you have much respect for the right to free speech since you have zero appreciation for the non-violent participants in the Hong Kong protest exercising theirs, and risking severe physical harm to do so. They seem far more dedicated to protecting it than you are demonstrating as you prefer to turn a blind eye when others rights are trampled. Law and order Yeah!!
Hey as long as you got your rights it's all good, huh?
Just get off it already. Whatever reason you’re pretending China isn’t a brutal regime now headed by a “president for life” (dictator) isn’t because of Trump. Or you have issues. Because this was all reported on and during other presidents.
I’m not. You clearly said that Apple (or any corp really) shouldn’t criticize or speak out in one arena (domestic) if they don’t in another (China). That’s whataboutism, and it’s a logical fallacy. A citizen of the democratic republic of the USA has much more ability to speak out (the point of which is to change the law, didn’t think that needed to be said) than they do abroad. Insisting they be silent in the US because they’re powerless in China is absurd. Corporations are people too, and people are free to pick and choose what issues they address and when they do so.
You must be getting your information from one of those sites dedicated to what is euphemistically called "Free Speech".