I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Is this machine non repairable, or not able to be repaired by the average home enthusiast? I am confused by this? Surely Apple wouldn't simply replace the machine if it needed repair? Like say an Apple Care scenario... you take it in for a failure and instead of repairing it they replace the whole machine?
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Is this machine non repairable, or not able to be repaired by the average home enthusiast? I am confused by this? Surely Apple wouldn't simply replace the machine if it needed repair? Like say an Apple Care scenario... you take it in for a failure and instead of repairing it they replace the whole machine?
In my world both apply... There are times when I have a machine is under warranty, or time is tight, or there may be a non-critical need like a drive warning for example, and I will pay for service when appropriate - and I use indy dealers who do same day service vs the Apple Store which at last check was a 2 week wait. There are other times when I simply want to upgrade or downgrade ram, so on the iMac, macbook pro 17" or even mini I simply do it. There may be other times when a need is urgent, service is unavailable (travel) or a simple drive update is something easy enough to tackle and time is available, and I've moved components around between mini, macbook pro and iMac (ram), typically upgrading a top end machine over time as demands increase with software, and occasionally repurposing downward when a faster machine is bought to replace it, or a machine is to be sold with still useful components for other machines... It all seems pretty basic, and my guess is all macs could be designed for easy access. Changing a sata drive or ram in mac portable (most aka SJ era) was/is perhaps a 10~20 minute exercise and 10~15 screws... I have also switched the VESA mount on an older iMac and both Cinema and TB displays, and upgraded Time Capsule drives extending the life (sustainability) and usefulness of the latter. Why the new LG display lacks a single screw mount to use the wonderful portrait rotation of macOS I do not understand, for example. Agreed such is not for everyone, however it has seemed very helpful to at least have such options when managing even a small number of macs used for business !
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority. Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts. Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles. Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car. That means a few common tools and a standardized component.
By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable. This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable. What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine. I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment. Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts. Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.
You seem to not understand brakes. Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair. As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room. For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house. So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops. Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place. So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house. There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable. Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems. Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware. The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy. In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired. They are often repaired in house to some extent or another. By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.
...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?
Welded on might be a good analogy if not taken too far. It is the activity of making parts that are expected to be serviced hard to get to and physically service that results in items being labeled disposable. Frankly I don’t expect Apple to make most of the components on a motherboard serviceable in the plug in sense as that does impact reliability which is a big indicator of quality.
The flip side, which Apple apparently doesn’t grasp, is that a battery change that requires the effort that most of Apples laptops require is a negative quality indicator. To put it simply it makes Apple look like a forked tongue beast. They talk about being green which is often non sense all by itself, and then sell laptops with glued in batteries. How is one to have any respect for such a company.
One problem with the repairability crowd is the seeming desire to stop the advance of technology. It is almost like they expect Apple to return to the days of TTL technology. What they don’t seem to understand is that most of the “electronics” in Apples devices is now contained in one chip or module. Linking that module to a few soldered in components makes for a very reliable piece of kit.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Is this machine non repairable, or not able to be repaired by the average home enthusiast? I am confused by this? Surely Apple wouldn't simply replace the machine if it needed repair? Like say an Apple Care scenario... you take it in for a failure and instead of repairing it they replace the whole machine?
If an SSD or RAM fails (for instance), I seriously doubt the Genius bar would unsolder them and resolder a replacement back onto the machine (although that is physically possible). The same for the keyboard: I doubt they would drill out the rivets holding it in place and re-rivet a new one on. Instead, you would likely just get a replacement machine. Of, if your machine was 366 days old, you would be told to buy a replacement machine. To me, that makes them very expensive disposable items.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
You're wasting your talent as a developer. I'm pretty sure if you go to the Apple jobs site they have positions for Apple Shill. You'll do great at it.
You certainly aren’t wasting your talent as a whiner, your abilities are world-class. “But but but...Aaaaple!”
Let me know when you can discuss the points rather than fall back on insults.
The irony of StrangeDays denouncing insults. Funniest joke I've heard all week.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority. Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts. Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles. Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car. That means a few common tools and a standardized component.
By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable. This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable. What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine. I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment. Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts. Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.
You seem to not understand brakes. Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair. As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room. For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house. So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops. Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place. So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house. There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable. Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems. Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware. The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy. In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired. They are often repaired in house to some extent or another. By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.
...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?
....
One problem with the repairability crowd is the seeming desire to stop the advance of technology. It is almost like they expect Apple to return to the days of TTL technology. What they don’t seem to understand is that most of the “electronics” in Apples devices is now contained in one chip or module. Linking that module to a few soldered in components makes for a very reliable piece of kit.
I don't see how soldering RAM & SSDs to the mother board advances technology. Neither do I see how making them replaceable stops or even hinders the advance of technology. These major components, along with the keyboard, are not contained in a chip or a module. Instead of using connectors or screws, Apple chose to solder them or rivet them to the machine.
Several have made the argument that soldered components are more reliable. That has not been my experience: I have had more solder joints break from jostling & rough handing than major components. But, for these major components, being upgradeable (even if it were done by Apple) is equally as important as being repairable. (However, as I said previously, I think it is good that Apple is not skimping on the base configuration -- 16Gb RAM and 500Gb storage may not ever need to be replaced by the average user during the expected life of the machine).
But compare the MacBook Pro to Lenovo Thinkpad T series: there, not only is every major part replaceable by an experienced user, Lenovo provides detailed instructions on how to do it -- and the machine is made so durable that it is essentially water proof from spills. Thinkpads are some of the most respected machines in business yet they seemingly take the opposite approach from Apple. Admittedly, while T Series Thinkpads are equally as reliable as MacBooks (possibly more so) they are fatter & heavier than the highly portable MacBooks. So, each has its advantages -- as well as disadvantages.
Imaging working at iFixit .. these brand new Apple units come in and there is some technician waiting at the work bench with a hammer drill, cold chisel and hammer
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.
I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?
Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.
Concentrate real hard folks....MBPs are serviceable. They don’t need to be upgradable, or user-serviceable, for this to be true. I’ve had mine serviced before...sacre bleu!
Me too, and was shocked to the point of almost crapping myself at the cost!
Replacing the keyboard in my 2016 15” was almost $500! For a KEYBOARD.
It may be possible to repair a MacBook Pro but it sure ain’t practical.
While a highly portable but non-upgradeable & non-repairable $2K+ machine is appealing to many (particularly professionals using it for business purposes), it is not for me and not for most people. It is a niche product. But, there's nothing wrong with niche products -- we need them to fill the niche's.
I don’t understand why you’re trying to convince everyone that most consumers fix their own computers. That’s not now, nor has ever been, the case. It doesn’t matter what the price point is, people take their stuff into Apple to fix when it breaks. Millions and millions of them. It’s literally the opposite of a niche product
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Is this machine non repairable, or not able to be repaired by the average home enthusiast? I am confused by this? Surely Apple wouldn't simply replace the machine if it needed repair? Like say an Apple Care scenario... you take it in for a failure and instead of repairing it they replace the whole machine?
If an SSD or RAM fails (for instance), I seriously doubt the Genius bar would unsolder them and resolder a replacement back onto the machine (although that is physically possible). The same for the keyboard: I doubt they would drill out the rivets holding it in place and re-rivet a new one on. Instead, you would likely just get a replacement machine. Of, if your machine was 366 days old, you would be told to buy a replacement machine. To me, that makes them very expensive disposable items.
Wrong. First instance they’d replace the logic board. Second instance they’d replace the top case which includes the keyboard and battery and trackpad. Third instance you’d pay for either part and labor if you didn’t have AppleCare and the repair wasn’t covered for some reason (sometimes it is) or you’d pay the flat repair rate for your machine ideally which is often far less than the cost of the aforementioned repair costs (around $300-something for a MacBook historically).
That’s been the case for many years, you should maybe stop talking about things you don’t understand.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.
I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?
Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.
Concentrate real hard folks....MBPs are serviceable. They don’t need to be upgradable, or user-serviceable, for this to be true. I’ve had mine serviced before...sacre bleu!
Me too, and was shocked to the point of almost crapping myself at the cost!
Replacing the keyboard in my 2016 15” was almost $500! For a KEYBOARD.
It may be possible to repair a MacBook Pro but it sure ain’t practical.
Did you ask for a refund after they implemented the keyboard replacement program? You can probably get your money back.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority. Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts. Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles. Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car. That means a few common tools and a standardized component.
By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable. This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable. What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine. I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment. Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts. Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.
You seem to not understand brakes. Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair. As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room. For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house. So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops. Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place. So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house. There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable. Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems. Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware. The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy. In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired. They are often repaired in house to some extent or another. By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.
...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?
....
One problem with the repairability crowd is the seeming desire to stop the advance of technology. It is almost like they expect Apple to return to the days of TTL technology. What they don’t seem to understand is that most of the “electronics” in Apples devices is now contained in one chip or module. Linking that module to a few soldered in components makes for a very reliable piece of kit.
I don't see how soldering RAM & SSDs to the mother board advances technology. Neither do I see how making them replaceable stops or even hinders the advance of technology. These major components, along with the keyboard, are not contained in a chip or a module.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.
I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?
Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.
Concentrate real hard folks....MBPs are serviceable. They don’t need to be upgradable, or user-serviceable, for this to be true. I’ve had mine serviced before...sacre bleu!
Technically, yes. Practically, no. Take the previous MBPs - you could technically replace the keyboard, but only by replacing the entire top case, making what should be a relatively minor repair prohibitively expensive. If we take your car analogy, you'd have to pull the engine to replace the clutch, and batteries are absolutely a wear item that should be replaceable without extraordinary effort.
People try to explain this away and. make excuses by saying 'nobody does it anyway,' but there are people who do it and there are service centers that do it, but if it's not practical to do so they won't.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority. Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts. Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles. Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car. That means a few common tools and a standardized component.
By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable. This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable. What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine. I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment. Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts. Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.
You seem to not understand brakes. Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair. As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room. For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house. So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops. Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place. So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house. There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable. Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems. Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware. The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy. In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired. They are often repaired in house to some extent or another. By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.
...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?
....
One problem with the repairability crowd is the seeming desire to stop the advance of technology. It is almost like they expect Apple to return to the days of TTL technology. What they don’t seem to understand is that most of the “electronics” in Apples devices is now contained in one chip or module. Linking that module to a few soldered in components makes for a very reliable piece of kit.
I don't see how soldering RAM & SSDs to the mother board advances technology. Neither do I see how making them replaceable stops or even hinders the advance of technology. These major components, along with the keyboard, are not contained in a chip or a module.
Haha what?
Obviously memory is chips; I think he meant that they are (or can be) discrete components, not part of the processor. In that sense, he's correct. As your picture illustrates, Apple clearly designed the logic board to minimize the footprint, but there is no technical reason the memory and SSD couldn't be discrete components like they are in the Mac Pro
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.
I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?
Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.
Concentrate real hard folks....MBPs are serviceable. They don’t need to be upgradable, or user-serviceable, for this to be true. I’ve had mine serviced before...sacre bleu!
Me too, and was shocked to the point of almost crapping myself at the cost!
Replacing the keyboard in my 2016 15” was almost $500! For a KEYBOARD.
It may be possible to repair a MacBook Pro but it sure ain’t practical.
Did you ask for a refund after they implemented the keyboard replacement program? You can probably get your money back.
I didn’t have to pay but the invoice still shows what it would cost me today now that my AppleCare coverage has expired. The repair involves replacing the entire layer of the computer, including case component, batteries, keyboard, and trackpad. That adds up to a lotta dough.
A bad RAM chip will cost $815 (replace logic board).
The design of these boxes makes repairs really, really expensive.
While a highly portable but non-upgradeable & non-repairable $2K+ machine is appealing to many (particularly professionals using it for business purposes), it is not for me and not for most people. It is a niche product. But, there's nothing wrong with niche products -- we need them to fill the niche's.
I don’t understand why you’re trying to convince everyone that most consumers fix their own computers. That’s not now, nor has ever been, the case. It doesn’t matter what the price point is, people take their stuff into Apple to fix when it breaks. Millions and millions of them. It’s literally the opposite of a niche product
LOL... Nice spin on what actually said. Do you work at FauxNews?
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Is this machine non repairable, or not able to be repaired by the average home enthusiast? I am confused by this? Surely Apple wouldn't simply replace the machine if it needed repair? Like say an Apple Care scenario... you take it in for a failure and instead of repairing it they replace the whole machine?
If an SSD or RAM fails (for instance), I seriously doubt the Genius bar would unsolder them and resolder a replacement back onto the machine (although that is physically possible). The same for the keyboard: I doubt they would drill out the rivets holding it in place and re-rivet a new one on. Instead, you would likely just get a replacement machine. Of, if your machine was 366 days old, you would be told to buy a replacement machine. To me, that makes them very expensive disposable items.
Wrong. First instance they’d replace the logic board. Second instance they’d replace the top case which includes the keyboard and battery and trackpad. Third instance you’d pay for either part and labor if you didn’t have AppleCare and the repair wasn’t covered for some reason (sometimes it is) or you’d pay the flat repair rate for your machine ideally which is often far less than the cost of the aforementioned repair costs (around $300-something for a MacBook historically).
That’s been the case for many years, you should maybe stop talking about things you don’t understand.
So, if an SSD goes bad, you would replace the mother board, CPU, GPU memory and controllers? Isn't that a bit like replacng the engine of a car if the battery dies?
On day 366 that so called "repair" (actually replacing most of the machine) would cost nearly as much as a new machine. Your example supports why they listed it as a 1 out of 10 on repairability.-- meaning that it isn't repairable.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority. Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts. Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles. Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car. That means a few common tools and a standardized component.
By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable. This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable. What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine. I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment. Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts. Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.
You seem to not understand brakes. Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair. As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room. For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house. So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops. Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place. So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house. There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable. Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems. Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware. The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy. In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired. They are often repaired in house to some extent or another. By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.
...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?
....
One problem with the repairability crowd is the seeming desire to stop the advance of technology. It is almost like they expect Apple to return to the days of TTL technology. What they don’t seem to understand is that most of the “electronics” in Apples devices is now contained in one chip or module. Linking that module to a few soldered in components makes for a very reliable piece of kit.
I don't see how soldering RAM & SSDs to the mother board advances technology. Neither do I see how making them replaceable stops or even hinders the advance of technology. These major components, along with the keyboard, are not contained in a chip or a module.
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
I’m not sure where this garbage about consummers never performing repairs on their cars comes from. It simply doesn’t reflect reality, in fact if you have never addressed a problem on your automobile I’d say you are in the minority. Even Walmart’s dedicate considerable space to high volume maintenance parts. Within a short distance of my home there are at least 3 parts stores selling largely to the owners of automobiles. Frankly service items on a laptop, like the battery, should not be any more difficult to replace than a battery on a car. That means a few common tools and a standardized component.
By the way I have to agree that non upgradeable doesn’t mean disposable. This though drags the discussion off course because being reasonable repairable has nothing to do with being upgradeable. What makes a MBP disposable is when repairs to common items expected to fail costs more than the value of the machine. I’d go so far as to say that Apples repair policies are designed to drive purchases of new equipment. Let’s be honest here, for old Apple hardware you need to go third party for repairs and that only happens if They can get the parts. Apple basically doesn’t want to know you even if the hardware is otherwise serving a need.
You seem to not understand brakes. Have them go bad and you will understand that they are an item that can require repair. As for PC’s, at work the IT department does a surprising amount of repairs to laptops, desktops and even stuff in the server room. For a reasonably sized organization it is far more cost effective to repair in house. So things like batteries, keyboards and so forth get replaced in laptops. Desktops and embedded PC’s sometimes leave you with little choice but to repair in place. So hard drives , video cards, power supplies and other items all get handled in house. There are a number of reasons for this but one simple one is that downtime isn’t acceptable. Then you have the issue of security and letting strangers into your systems. Another issue is the fact that a third party would have no idea as to what is going on with the hardware. The corporate world is funny though because another division or installation might have a totally different policy. In any event you can’t really say that PC’s aren’t repaired. They are often repaired in house to some extent or another. By the way not one Apple product exists in these sorts of installations, Apple simply doesn’t supply the required hardware.
...to add and qualify I liken some wear components more like tires, wheels, shocks and springs. Optimized at the design stage, performance may be best with OEM to start. Of course there is wear, and different tires for different driving conditions (think HD/SSD), and In time there may be better performing options or sizes invented and available. Might Apple's approach compare to welded on wheels, shocks and springs ?
....
One problem with the repairability crowd is the seeming desire to stop the advance of technology. It is almost like they expect Apple to return to the days of TTL technology. What they don’t seem to understand is that most of the “electronics” in Apples devices is now contained in one chip or module. Linking that module to a few soldered in components makes for a very reliable piece of kit.
I don't see how soldering RAM & SSDs to the mother board advances technology. Neither do I see how making them replaceable stops or even hinders the advance of technology. These major components, along with the keyboard, are not contained in a chip or a module.
Haha what?
Obviously memory is chips; I think he meant that they are (or can be) discrete components, not part of the processor. In that sense, he's correct. As your picture illustrates, Apple clearly designed the logic board to minimize the footprint, but there is no technical reason the memory and SSD couldn't be discrete components like they are in the Mac Pro
This one does, more or less. I'm all in favor of a storage module like the Mac Pro has, but let's be real — they're maximizing the shit out of the space inside these things:
I get it why they designed it this way. But, essentially, it makes it a $2K+ disposable computer (it can't be upgraded and it can't be repaired) and that just goes against my grain. I think I would have to carefully balance the benefits of the computer (and specifically how they would benefit me) and weigh that against the limited repair and upgradeability.
On the other hand, these are aimed at the truly "pro" market -- meaning not just power users but those who make their living with these machines. So, for them, if it breaks they will be more inclined to treat it like any other piece of equipment and replace it.
Non-user-upgradable doesn’t mean “disposable”. It means you can’t upgrade it. It surely can be serviced if the need should arise. You can also resell it, as well as recycle it. Just like an iPad or even a car, neither of which most consumers ever perform repairs themselves on.
It’s like complaining that your TV is “disposable”, despite having an expected lifespan of many, many years, and TV repair still being a thing. (I’ve had my expensive, non-user-serviceable plasma for almost a decade.)
That being said, despite being in IT I don’t know anyone, pro or consumer, who repairs their own laptops, TVs, or even cars (other than brakes or oil which isn’t really repair). Apple doesn’t design its products for DIY tinkerers.
That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy - if something is made incredibly difficult to repair, you won't repair it.
I have to agree with wizard and bobolicious - components which get a lot of wear and/or are likely to need replacing, should be made so it's at least easier to do so. Take the keyboard - it's a mechanical component that's exposed to the environment and gets a ton of use. Even if the new design is more reliable as hoped it's still going to be one of the higher failure items. Is there any real reason they couldn't have fastened it with screws?
Apple also touts its environmental record, but one of the best ways to reduce environmental costs of products is maximize their life span. A design that prevents repairs goes against that. A modular design would be really nice, but modularity costs space, so that's a compromise that gets made in the name of size, but they've gotten to the point that they might as well just encase the entire thing in epoxy.
Concentrate real hard folks....MBPs are serviceable. They don’t need to be upgradable, or user-serviceable, for this to be true. I’ve had mine serviced before...sacre bleu!
Me too, and was shocked to the point of almost crapping myself at the cost!
Replacing the keyboard in my 2016 15” was almost $500! For a KEYBOARD.
It may be possible to repair a MacBook Pro but it sure ain’t practical.
Did you ask for a refund after they implemented the keyboard replacement program? You can probably get your money back.
I didn’t have to pay but the invoice still shows what it would cost me today now that my AppleCare coverage has expired. The repair involves replacing the entire layer of the computer, including case component, batteries, keyboard, and trackpad. That adds up to a lotta dough.
A bad RAM chip will cost $815 (replace logic board).
The design of these boxes makes repairs really, really expensive.
For all the repairs that were not covered in full in the last decade or more, I think the few that weren't were all covered under the flat repair program which was like $310 for a MBP. In a couple cases, that included other items I didn't even request to be repaired. One repair got me a new logic board, new top case, new display, new hard drive, new RAM (even tho I tossed that and put my old RAM in). $310! That would've been wayyyyy more on a component-based repair. Seriously, always try to get the flat rate whenever possible and mention everything you know might be flawed. It gets shipped off, everything possible fixed, and back in a couple days. It's amazing. BEST SERVICE EVER.
Comments
Replacing the keyboard in my 2016 15” was almost $500! For a KEYBOARD.
It may be possible to repair a MacBook Pro but it sure ain’t practical.
Did you ask for a refund after they implemented the keyboard replacement program? You can probably get your money back.
Haha what?
People try to explain this away and. make excuses by saying 'nobody does it anyway,' but there are people who do it and there are service centers that do it, but if it's not practical to do so they won't.
A bad RAM chip will cost $815 (replace logic board).
The design of these boxes makes repairs really, really expensive.
For all the repairs that were not covered in full in the last decade or more, I think the few that weren't were all covered under the flat repair program which was like $310 for a MBP. In a couple cases, that included other items I didn't even request to be repaired. One repair got me a new logic board, new top case, new display, new hard drive, new RAM (even tho I tossed that and put my old RAM in). $310! That would've been wayyyyy more on a component-based repair. Seriously, always try to get the flat rate whenever possible and mention everything you know might be flawed. It gets shipped off, everything possible fixed, and back in a couple days. It's amazing. BEST SERVICE EVER.