While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
"Now, even Apple's $399 iPhone SE uses a more powerful brain than even the most advanced Android flagships with prices above $1,000. How is this possible?"
Apple sacrificed practically everything else to reach that price point. That's how it was possible. Other brands of course could do exactly the same if they wanted to. The difference is that they have no need to do so.
"The A13 is a stronger chip than the Snapdragon 865 for daily use in every category," Hildenbrand noted."
Perhaps Hildenbrand was just plain wrong. Most important catagories also include Wi-Fi and Modem. Is the iPhone stronger in those areas? Ok, I know that Apple has yet to put a modem in its SoC. That is a disadvantage IMO. And how is he even comparing DSPs and ISPs? And are we now brushing aside years of subpar intel modems?
On a wider note, the Apple graphic says 'fastest' CPU, 'fastest' GPU, but only 'faster' NPU. They are not comparing the NPU to Android SoCs, just other iPhones.
It seems the whole point only boils down to CPU/GPU performance but we have long seen far beyond that, as all flagships now fly and have done for years.
We also know that CPU/GPU performance is definitely not the only key metric involved. If it were, there would literally be no Android flagship market. 'Fastest' CPU/GPU lost their key selling factors long ago. Now though, we are focused, among many other non-CPU aspects, on their perceived performance chops with elements like screen refresh rates and the claimed silky smooth enhancements in UI response (although once again, few if any flagship users were even seeing a 'problem' in the first place).
"Apple's A13 Bionic isn't just faster, it's deployed wider than any high-end Android chip"
What's the takeaway here? I can see zero relevance to anything. Android phones use varying SoCs at varying price points to offer wider value points - by design. And I'm not limiting this to just 'older' SoCs but new SoCs too.
That means for a so called 'lesser' SoC the consumer gains options in other areas. The SE sacrifices most of that for its price point and the A13.
Neither approach is right or wrong. They are simply options. No doubt some SE users would have preferred a 'lesser' SoC in exchange for other features. Either way, more choice for iPhone users can only be a good thing.
Seeing as Android manufacturers have a far wider choice of SoCs available to them, obviously 'deployment' of each one isn't t as wide as it could be. Not that it is even remotely relevant.
"However, 2020 is turning out to be a bad year to be pushing 5G as your only strength. It will be some time before 5G becomes broadly available outside of a few leading markets such as South Korea and specific urban markets. For budget phone buyers, 5G offers little more than faster battery drain and often the requirement to pay extra for mobile service, whether that 5G service is consistently available and capable of delivering noticeably better, real-world mobile data speeds than the best 4G LTE or not."
No one foresaw (or can foresee) the Covid-19 pandemic. The 5G roll out may have been hampered for few months in 2020 but that is completely and utterly irrelevant. The situation is exactly the same for potential purchasers as it was before the pandemic. The roll out continues and in some places (China for example, will be accelerated more - again). In fact, the roll out never even stopped as ICT is considered an 'essential' industry and Nokia, Ericsson and Huawei have been working around the clock on increasing network capacity to meet confinement demands. COVID-19 has served to spur industrial use of 5G too.
As a smartphone purchaser in 2020 (budget or not) , if you have 5G in your area you should have 5G on your phone wishlist. Even if you don't have 5G in your area yet, it should be on your list of features all the same if 5G is scheduled for your area. As a result, 5G remains a vital strength to have and many budget purchasers will simply put off purchases altogether to futureproof the phone purchase when it does happen, depending on their personal 5G circumstances or buy now. For example, some may choose to only bite on an on-SoC modem, NSA and SA support etc. Whichever way you look at it, not having 5G support for your phones is not a comfortable place to be.
As for the reference to 4G LTE and 5G speeds, yesterday I was checking out UK 5G speeds against 4G LTE in a range of different cities. None of the sites checked had 4G in the same ball park as 5G.
You might say that 'fast 4G' is sufficiently fast to make 'faster' 5G an unimportant aspect in the real world but in pure performance terms that would be as futile as trying to claim the A13 is faster than Android SoCs while ignoring reality, where Android SoCs 'perform' better in other key areas like WiFi, modem, photography, battery, biometrics etc.
That is, 5G towers and phone hardware can offer benefits that go beyond the speed of just downloads and uploads. Obviously latency being one of those.
Or that certain vendors are using proprietary enhancements to existing standards to improve their hardware's performance.
Huawei claims its late 2018 WiFi 5 is faster than Apple's WiFi 6 and Huawei has just rolled out its 'WiFi 6+' on phones (there was already an entire suite of WiFi 6+ products on the market) which draw on its 5G technology to improve baseline WiFi 6 performance.
Like Huawei is offering 40Wwireless charging too.
Is there anything stopping Samsung, Huawei et al from stripping most of their phones' features away and plunking in a high end chipset? No. Nothing.
In fact the high end chipsets are not reserved for the high end at all. In 2018, Huawei launched the Mate 20 Pro with the Kirin 980. A month later it appeared on Honor phones (Huawei's sub brand). Last year it was the same with the Kirin 990/Kirin 9905G.
The difference is they didn't strip most of the bells and whistles away just to reach the lower end. That makes a lot of sense in their markets because they also have new SoCs for other price bands which allow them to add desired features like, you guessed it, 5G, along with full screens and tri-cameras.
Apple needed the new SE, as stripped down as it may be, but do you really think Apple was all in on the idea or that it felt that market conditions simply made it something they had to do?
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
The point of the SE is exactly the same as when the last one came out four years ago. It’s an easy win, and closes a price umbrella.
Despite iPhone prices going up, Apple has continued to dominate the market and enjoy record quarters of profit again. They don’t care about your continual whining about market share, or chasing higher volume via lower prices. When the pricey X came out it outsold the cheaper 8 and that’s a fact. ASP for the win.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When you’ve completely dominated a sector for 13 years and reaped more profit than anyone in history, it’s not the end of the world, and was expected, that sales could not climb ever upward. This had been mused for years prior.
That crummier knockoff brands have rising sales doesn’t put them on equal footing as the handset at the top. When you’re not at the top it’s a given you will have more upward trajectory. That metric alone is meaningless.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
Ahhh the good old days. When iKnockoff users claimed iPhones were overpriced and no one would buy a X for $1,000.....
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
Flat is flat and this is a fact. No one can dispute this.
Why are you limiting your argument only to the U.S?
Why are you limiting your marketshare argument to smartphone models?
Let's take the top three smartphone manufacturers worldwide: Samsung, BBK and Huawei.
They sell millions more phones than Apple but you will not find many of their models in the ranks of most sold models. Huawei absolutely dominates the Chinese market but you won't find any of its models in the top 5 there either.
The reason is crystal clear. Apple has such a tiny model spread that its sales numbers by models are higher.
In absolute terms though, sales remained flat.
Desperate times? That depends on your viewpoint.
Apple's smartphone sales are just a part of its larger business. If we focus on the phone side of things we see the needle hadn't moved for four years in spite of having around 80% of the market to aim for. It slipped out of the top three bracket for sales by manufacturer and when that happened it was the first time in literally years. It had to issue a profit warning. It was falling dangerously behind the technological level of competitors. Those competitors were moving into Apple's premium price bands. It has just launched a low cost iPhone.
I asked a very simple question at the end of my post. Here it is:
Apple needed the new SE, as stripped down as it may be, but do you really think Apple was all in on the idea or that it felt that market conditions simply made it something they had to do?
What is your answer to that question?
Also, please remember the context here. My post was on parts of article. I rarely read those things as they are so unbalanced (as highlighted by my comments) and I had to stop reading because it was just seeing one questionable claim after another.
If you believe I am wrong, take issue with the points I raised. You didn't do that. You just went off on your own tangent which unfortunately was misrepresentative as you limited your argument to the U.S when you were fully aware that nothing here was limited to that market.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When AvonB7 mentions that iPhone sales are flat for 4 years, fairly, he also doesn't mention that Apple still retains more than 50% of all of the profits from from all smartphone sales, and for AvonB7, he also doesn't mention that Apple's iPhone ASP is three to four times higher than the next most profitable, Samsung, nor that Apple's margins are 8 times Huawei's. Context is that these other companies ship a lot of very low price smartphones. The SE is Apple's quadrennial entry level device, and serves those that want an inexpensive device and don't require a lot of features.
That's the context, and maybe that context makes it more difficult for Apple to sell into India, as an example, but it also is a moat that assures that Apple will survive when most other companies will see low or no profits from the current world recession, and many will cease to exist.
My assumption is that Apple has "flattened" to around 180-210 million iPhone unit sales a year, which is indeed less than Huawei's some 240 million, but as a cudgel to beat Apple with, AvonB7 is in fact "tilting at windmills".
There isn't any downside to Apple owning most of the profits in the smartphone industry, and one of AvonB7's major shortcomings, is that his context is always only smartphone sales, not the place of the iPhone in Apple's ecosystem.
As for Huawei, it may be that they will see this recession as a golden opportunity to shift more smartphones, and kill their competition, especially in China, but it is also that case that the world is quite a bit less enamored with all things China, and that is going to put a cap on Huawei sales worldwide, especially of their telecom infrastructure. Maybe that cap will be higher than Samsung's for smartphones, but I wouldn't count on that any time in the near future.
AvonB7 is easily one of the most partisan Android users here at AI, and is quite predicable in his posts.
For the record, has AvonB7 or GeorgeBMac, both purveyors "of all things must be 5G", purchased one of those must have 5G handsets that they keep touting?
Of course not.
They are all talk, and in September, Apple will deliver 5G, and I doubt that even a very small number of Apple users have switched to Android just to be early adopters.
Will this goose Apple sales? Probably not due to the COVID19 driven recession, but who knows. At any rate, I would expect Huawei to see flat sales worldwide, so AvonB7 might want to fuck off with "Apple's flat iPhone sales" meme for awhile.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When you’ve completely dominated a sector for 13 years and reaped more profit than anyone in history, it’s not the end of the world, and was expected, that sales could not climb ever upward. This had been mused for years prior.
That crummier knockoff brands have rising sales doesn’t put them on equal footing as the handset at the top. When you’re not at the top it’s a given you will have more upward trajectory. That metric alone is meaningless.
You didn't tackle even one of the points I countered.
Past glories only count for nostalgia points. Just ask Blackberry, Kodak, Sony etc.
Nostalgia is fine but what moves this particular industry - today - is competition, which is exactly how it should be. Apple is responding to that competition (albeit slowly) which is also how it should be.
Your second paragraphs makes no sense at all. Samsung and Huawei are on a more than equal footing to Apple. Far ahead even in many respects.
Consumers, the people who buy products, have ZERO interest in if a company is making the most profits.
"Now, even Apple's $399 iPhone SE uses a more powerful brain than even the most advanced Android flagships with prices above $1,000. How is this possible?"
Apple sacrificed practically everything else to reach that price point. That's how it was possible. Other brands of course could do exactly the same if they wanted to. The difference is that they have no need to do so.
"The A13 is a stronger chip than the Snapdragon 865 for daily use in every category," Hildenbrand noted."
Perhaps Hildenbrand was just plain wrong. Most important catagories also include Wi-Fi and Modem. Is the iPhone stronger in those areas? Ok, I know that Apple has yet to put a modem in its SoC. That is a disadvantage IMO. And how is he even comparing DSPs and ISPs? And are we now brushing aside years of subpar intel modems?
On a wider note, the Apple graphic says 'fastest' CPU, 'fastest' GPU, but only 'faster' NPU. They are not comparing the NPU to Android SoCs, just other iPhones.
It seems the whole point only boils down to CPU/GPU performance but we have long seen far beyond that, as all flagships now fly and have done for years.
We also know that CPU/GPU performance is definitely not the only key metric involved. If it were, there would literally be no Android flagship market. 'Fastest' CPU/GPU lost their key selling factors long ago. Now though, we are focused, among many other non-CPU aspects, on their perceived performance chops with elements like screen refresh rates and the claimed silky smooth enhancements in UI response (although once again, few if any flagship users were even seeing a 'problem' in the first place).
"Apple's A13 Bionic isn't just faster, it's deployed wider than any high-end Android chip"
What's the takeaway here? I can see zero relevance to anything. Android phones use varying SoCs at varying price points to offer wider value points - by design. And I'm not limiting this to just 'older' SoCs but new SoCs too.
That means for a so called 'lesser' SoC the consumer gains options in other areas. The SE sacrifices most of that for its price point and the A13.
Neither approach is right or wrong. They are simply options. No doubt some SE users would have preferred a 'lesser' SoC in exchange for other features. Either way, more choice for iPhone users can only be a good thing.
Seeing as Android manufacturers have a far wider choice of SoCs available to them, obviously 'deployment' of each one isn't t as wide as it could be. Not that it is even remotely relevant.
"However, 2020 is turning out to be a bad year to be pushing 5G as your only strength. It will be some time before 5G becomes broadly available outside of a few leading markets such as South Korea and specific urban markets. For budget phone buyers, 5G offers little more than faster battery drain and often the requirement to pay extra for mobile service, whether that 5G service is consistently available and capable of delivering noticeably better, real-world mobile data speeds than the best 4G LTE or not."
No one foresaw (or can foresee) the Covid-19 pandemic. The 5G roll out may have been hampered for few months in 2020 but that is completely and utterly irrelevant. The situation is exactly the same for potential purchasers as it was before the pandemic. The roll out continues and in some places (China for example, will be accelerated more - again). In fact, the roll out never even stopped as ICT is considered an 'essential' industry and Nokia, Ericsson and Huawei have been working around the clock on increasing network capacity to meet confinement demands. COVID-19 has served to spur industrial use of 5G too.
As a smartphone purchaser in 2020 (budget or not) , if you have 5G in your area you should have 5G on your phone wishlist. Even if you don't have 5G in your area yet, it should be on your list of features all the same if 5G is scheduled for your area. As a result, 5G remains a vital strength to have and many budget purchasers will simply put off purchases altogether to futureproof the phone purchase when it does happen, depending on their personal 5G circumstances or buy now. For example, some may choose to only bite on an on-SoC modem, NSA and SA support etc. Whichever way you look at it, not having 5G support for your phones is not a comfortable place to be.
As for the reference to 4G LTE and 5G speeds, yesterday I was checking out UK 5G speeds against 4G LTE in a range of different cities. None of the sites checked had 4G in the same ball park as 5G.
You might say that 'fast 4G' is sufficiently fast to make 'faster' 5G an unimportant aspect in the real world but in pure performance terms that would be as futile as trying to claim the A13 is faster than Android SoCs while ignoring reality, where Android SoCs 'perform' better in other key areas like WiFi, modem, photography, battery, biometrics etc.
That is, 5G towers and phone hardware can offer benefits that go beyond the speed of just downloads and uploads. Obviously latency being one of those.
Or that certain vendors are using proprietary enhancements to existing standards to improve their hardware's performance.
Huawei claims its late 2018 WiFi 5 is faster than Apple's WiFi 6 and Huawei has just rolled out its 'WiFi 6+' on phones (there was already an entire suite of WiFi 6+ products on the market) which draw on its 5G technology to improve baseline WiFi 6 performance.
Like Huawei is offering 40Wwireless charging too.
Is there anything stopping Samsung, Huawei et al from stripping most of their phones' features away and plunking in a high end chipset? No. Nothing.
In fact the high end chipsets are not reserved for the high end at all. In 2018, Huawei launched the Mate 20 Pro with the Kirin 980. A month later it appeared on Honor phones (Huawei's sub brand). Last year it was the same with the Kirin 990/Kirin 9905G.
The difference is they didn't strip most of the bells and whistles away just to reach the lower end. That makes a lot of sense in their markets because they also have new SoCs for other price bands which allow them to add desired features like, you guessed it, 5G, along with full screens and tri-cameras.
Apple needed the new SE, as stripped down as it may be, but do you really think Apple was all in on the idea or that it felt that market conditions simply made it something they had to do?
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
The point of the SE is exactly the same as when the last one came out four years ago. It’s an easy win, and closes a price umbrella.
Despite iPhone prices going up, Apple has continued to dominate the market and enjoy record quarters of profit again. They don’t care about your continual whining about market share, or chasing higher volume via lower prices. When the pricey X came out it outsold the cheaper 8 and that’s a fact. ASP for the win.
I think the SE is also an easy win but the point of it isn't exactly the same as when it first came out.
Apple's position is vastly different to back then although some similarities do remain between the reasons for both SEs.
Yes, price was and is key but his phone has more focus on price because the difference between this SE and its high end brothers and sisters is far more marked than with the last SE.
The difference in design is far more striking this time around too.
As is the price gap between this iteration and its high end siblings. As is the core technology on it (FaceID vs TouchID for example).
The SE is the fruit of market realities, not Apple desires. Apple spent a lot of time and effort extolling the virtues of 'full screen' phones and FaceID over foreheads, chins and TouchID, even using marketing to pit its new deigns against its old designs no sooner had the entire line moved to the X factor design.
Now we are seeing a complete reversal of those aspects so Apple has no option to put the focus on where it had to be: price.
However, there are huge differences between this SE and the last SE in terms of the situations surrounding both phones. Those situations are key here.
Nevertheless the move was desperately needed and for the reasons I gave. I support the decision.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When AvonB7 mentions that iPhone sales are flat for 4 years, fairly, he also doesn't mention that Apple still retains more than 50% of all of the profits from from all smartphone sales, and for AvonB7, he also doesn't mention that Apple's iPhone ASP is three to four times higher than the next most profitable, Samsung, nor that Apple's margins are 8 times Huawei's. Context is that these other companies ship a lot of very low price smartphones. The SE is Apple's quadrennial entry level device, and serves those that want an inexpensive device and don't require a lot of features.
That's the context, and maybe that context makes it more difficult for Apple to sell into India, as an example, but it also is a moat that assures that Apple will survive when most other companies will see low or no profits from the current world recession, and many will cease to exist.
My assumption is that Apple has "flattened" to around 180-210 million iPhone unit sales a year, which is indeed less than Huawei's some 240 million, but as a cudgel to beat Apple with, AvonB7 is in fact "tilting at windmills".
There isn't any downside to Apple owning most of the profits in the smartphone industry, and one of AvonB7's major shortcomings, is that his context is always only smartphone sales, not the place of the iPhone in Apple's ecosystem.
As for Huawei, it may be that they will see this recession as a golden opportunity to shift more smartphones, and kill their competition, especially in China, but it is also that case that the world is quite a bit less enamored with all things China, and that is going to put a cap on Huawei sales worldwide, especially of their telecom infrastructure. Maybe that cap will be higher than Samsung's for smartphones, but I wouldn't count on that any time in the near future.
AvonB7 is easily one of the most partisan Android users here at AI, and is quite predicable in his posts.
For the record, has AvonB7 or GeorgeBMac, both purveyors "of all things must be 5G", purchased one of those must have 5G handsets that they keep touting?
Of course not.
They are all talk, and in September, Apple will deliver 5G, and I doubt that even a very small number of Apple users have switched to Android just to be early adopters.
Will this goose Apple sales? Probably not due to the COVID19 driven recession, but who knows. At any rate, I would expect Huawei to see flat sales worldwide, so AvonB7 might want to fuck off with "Apple's flat iPhone sales" meme for awhile.
In no particular order:
My current phone is not even out of warranty. Hence no immediate plans to upgrade. My next phone will definitely have 5G. Huawei has designed new SoCs to fit into lower price brackets without having to sacrifice key phone features and has added 5G to them.
You, on the other hand were interested in upgrading a couple of years ago but held off to wait for a tri-camera iPhone. That came but then you decided to hold off again but claim 5G has nothing to do with your decision. Sorry but you will understand if I raise an eyebrow to that claim.
Profits and ASP have zero relation to consumer purchasing decisions. We are talking phones here, not investment strategy.
I prefer Android to iOS on phones but deal with iOS on a daily basis which reinforces my preferenc.
I never underestimate Apple's place for iPhone in its ecosystem. I even made reference to it with my bums on seats comment. However, Android is an ecosystem too and within that Huawei has its own ecosystem.
Huawei's sales could flatten or fall but the difference here is that it would be solely due to external factors like not having access to the second largest smartphone market on the planet and the U.S government actively trying to destroy it.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When AvonB7 mentions that iPhone sales are flat for 4 years, fairly, he also doesn't mention that Apple still retains more than 50% of all of the profits from from all smartphone sales, and for AvonB7, he also doesn't mention that Apple's iPhone ASP is three to four times higher than the next most profitable, Samsung, nor that Apple's margins are 8 times Huawei's. Context is that these other companies ship a lot of very low price smartphones. The SE is Apple's quadrennial entry level device, and serves those that want an inexpensive device and don't require a lot of features.
That's the context, and maybe that context makes it more difficult for Apple to sell into India, as an example, but it also is a moat that assures that Apple will survive when most other companies will see low or no profits from the current world recession, and many will cease to exist.
My assumption is that Apple has "flattened" to around 180-210 million iPhone unit sales a year, which is indeed less than Huawei's some 240 million, but as a cudgel to beat Apple with, AvonB7 is in fact "tilting at windmills".
There isn't any downside to Apple owning most of the profits in the smartphone industry, and one of AvonB7's major shortcomings, is that his context is always only smartphone sales, not the place of the iPhone in Apple's ecosystem.
As for Huawei, it may be that they will see this recession as a golden opportunity to shift more smartphones, and kill their competition, especially in China, but it is also that case that the world is quite a bit less enamored with all things China, and that is going to put a cap on Huawei sales worldwide, especially of their telecom infrastructure. Maybe that cap will be higher than Samsung's for smartphones, but I wouldn't count on that any time in the near future.
AvonB7 is easily one of the most partisan Android users here at AI, and is quite predicable in his posts.
For the record, has AvonB7 or GeorgeBMac, both purveyors "of all things must be 5G", purchased one of those must have 5G handsets that they keep touting?
Of course not.
They are all talk, and in September, Apple will deliver 5G, and I doubt that even a very small number of Apple users have switched to Android just to be early adopters.
Will this goose Apple sales? Probably not due to the COVID19 driven recession, but who knows. At any rate, I would expect Huawei to see flat sales worldwide, so AvonB7 might want to fuck off with "Apple's flat iPhone sales" meme for awhile.
In no particular order:
My current phone is not even out of warranty. Hence no immediate plans to upgrade. My next phone will definitely have 5G. Huawei has designed new SoCs to fit into lower price brackets without having to sacrifice key phone features and has added 5G to them.
You, on the other hand were interested in upgrading a couple of years ago but held off to wait for a tri-camera iPhone. That came but then you decided to hold off again but claim 5G has nothing to do with your decision. Sorry but you will understand if I raise an eyebrow to that claim.
Profits and ASP have zero relation to consumer purchasing decisions. We are talking phones here, not investment strategy.
I prefer Android to iOS on phones but deal with iOS on a daily basis which reinforces my preferenc.
I never underestimate Apple's place for iPhone in its ecosystem. I even made reference to it with my bums on seats comment. However, Android is an ecosystem too and within that Huawei has its own ecosystem.
Huawei's sales could flatten or fall but the difference here is that it would be solely due to external factors like not having access to the second largest smartphone market on the planet and the U.S government actively trying to destroy it.
It's fair to comment on my not purchasing an iPhone 11, after my interest in the triple camera, and the fact that I don't really have a need for a new iPhone at this point in time is certainly part of that. On the other hand, I also have a Formlabs 3D printer, which might benefit from the abilities of LIDAR that will be in the iPhone 12 to create 3D cloud data, so I will wait. The point is that I am not advocating any particular purchase position, merely stating mine.
You, on the other hand, have described/hyped 5G as a must have, yet, by definition, you have chosen to wait. So has GeorgeBMac. Hmmm. Maybe not must have after all if you are fine waiting for the benefits. See how that works?
As for Huawei sales, maybe if the CCP and Huawei weren't so closely linked, and Huawei wasn't state supported, and hadn't been caught shipping prohibited technology to Iran, and if Xi Jinping hadn't upped the dial on authoritarianism from 10 to 11 and beyond, the U.S. might not have a case against Huawei smartphones. But the U.S. has been suspicious of China long before Trump came into office. Frankly, people in the West are not willing to give China the benefit of the doubt on liberalization any more, and that is absolutely on Xi Jinping.
I've always here stated that telecom infrastructure is a National Security issue, and after all of the difficulty in obtaining PPE, and medical supplies from the "usual" sources in China, when all the while Chinese companies are buying up supplies around the world to ship home, I think that the West is having second thoughts about China.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When AvonB7 mentions that iPhone sales are flat for 4 years, fairly, he also doesn't mention that Apple still retains more than 50% of all of the profits from from all smartphone sales, and for AvonB7, he also doesn't mention that Apple's iPhone ASP is three to four times higher than the next most profitable, Samsung, nor that Apple's margins are 8 times Huawei's. Context is that these other companies ship a lot of very low price smartphones. The SE is Apple's quadrennial entry level device, and serves those that want an inexpensive device and don't require a lot of features.
That's the context, and maybe that context makes it more difficult for Apple to sell into India, as an example, but it also is a moat that assures that Apple will survive when most other companies will see low or no profits from the current world recession, and many will cease to exist.
My assumption is that Apple has "flattened" to around 180-210 million iPhone unit sales a year, which is indeed less than Huawei's some 240 million, but as a cudgel to beat Apple with, AvonB7 is in fact "tilting at windmills".
There isn't any downside to Apple owning most of the profits in the smartphone industry, and one of AvonB7's major shortcomings, is that his context is always only smartphone sales, not the place of the iPhone in Apple's ecosystem.
As for Huawei, it may be that they will see this recession as a golden opportunity to shift more smartphones, and kill their competition, especially in China, but it is also that case that the world is quite a bit less enamored with all things China, and that is going to put a cap on Huawei sales worldwide, especially of their telecom infrastructure. Maybe that cap will be higher than Samsung's for smartphones, but I wouldn't count on that any time in the near future.
AvonB7 is easily one of the most partisan Android users here at AI, and is quite predicable in his posts.
For the record, has AvonB7 or GeorgeBMac, both purveyors "of all things must be 5G", purchased one of those must have 5G handsets that they keep touting?
Of course not.
They are all talk, and in September, Apple will deliver 5G, and I doubt that even a very small number of Apple users have switched to Android just to be early adopters.
Will this goose Apple sales? Probably not due to the COVID19 driven recession, but who knows. At any rate, I would expect Huawei to see flat sales worldwide, so AvonB7 might want to fuck off with "Apple's flat iPhone sales" meme for awhile.
In no particular order:
My current phone is not even out of warranty. Hence no immediate plans to upgrade. My next phone will definitely have 5G. Huawei has designed new SoCs to fit into lower price brackets without having to sacrifice key phone features and has added 5G to them.
You, on the other hand were interested in upgrading a couple of years ago but held off to wait for a tri-camera iPhone. That came but then you decided to hold off again but claim 5G has nothing to do with your decision. Sorry but you will understand if I raise an eyebrow to that claim.
Profits and ASP have zero relation to consumer purchasing decisions. We are talking phones here, not investment strategy.
I prefer Android to iOS on phones but deal with iOS on a daily basis which reinforces my preferenc.
I never underestimate Apple's place for iPhone in its ecosystem. I even made reference to it with my bums on seats comment. However, Android is an ecosystem too and within that Huawei has its own ecosystem.
Huawei's sales could flatten or fall but the difference here is that it would be solely due to external factors like not having access to the second largest smartphone market on the planet and the U.S government actively trying to destroy it.
It's fair to comment on my not purchasing an iPhone 11, after my interest in the triple camera, and the fact that I don't really have a need for a new iPhone at this point in time is certainly part of that. On the other hand, I also have a Formlabs 3D printer, which might benefit from the abilities of LIDAR that will be in the iPhone 12 to create 3D cloud data, so I will wait. The point is that I am not advocating any particular purchase position, merely stating mine.
You, on the other hand, have described/hyped 5G as a must have, yet, by definition, you have chosen to wait. So has GeorgeBMac. Hmmm. Maybe not must have after all if you are fine waiting for the benefits. See how that works?
As for Huawei sales, maybe if the CCP and Huawei weren't so closely linked, and Huawei wasn't state supported, and hadn't been caught shipping prohibited technology to Iran, and if Xi Jinping hadn't upped the dial on authoritarianism from 10 to 11 and beyond, the U.S. might not have a case against Huawei smartphones. But the U.S. has been suspicious of China long before Trump came into office. Frankly, people in the West are not willing to give China the benefit of the doubt on liberalization any more, and that is absolutely on Xi Jinping.
I've always here stated that telecom infrastructure is a National Security issue, and after all of the difficulty in obtaining PPE, and medical supplies from the "usual" sources in China, when all the while Chinese companies are buying up supplies around the world to ship home, I think that the West is having second thoughts about China.
I haven't chosen to wait. My upgrade cycle hasn't started yet. That window will open before the end of this year and stretch into next year. Plenty of time to evaluate the situation, features and prices. The same applies to my wife and her next phone.
I am not advocating a phone but pointing out some of the clear flaws in this piece and giving examples that I know of.
I am already laying the groundwork to move to non-Google services, download from the AppGallery and use Huawei Cloud Services (which are based on servers within the EU).
I have no issues with Google but the situation is what it is. As the scouts say, be prepared!
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When AvonB7 mentions that iPhone sales are flat for 4 years, fairly, he also doesn't mention that Apple still retains more than 50% of all of the profits from from all smartphone sales, and for AvonB7, he also doesn't mention that Apple's iPhone ASP is three to four times higher than the next most profitable, Samsung, nor that Apple's margins are 8 times Huawei's. Context is that these other companies ship a lot of very low price smartphones. The SE is Apple's quadrennial entry level device, and serves those that want an inexpensive device and don't require a lot of features.
That's the context, and maybe that context makes it more difficult for Apple to sell into India, as an example, but it also is a moat that assures that Apple will survive when most other companies will see low or no profits from the current world recession, and many will cease to exist.
My assumption is that Apple has "flattened" to around 180-210 million iPhone unit sales a year, which is indeed less than Huawei's some 240 million, but as a cudgel to beat Apple with, AvonB7 is in fact "tilting at windmills".
There isn't any downside to Apple owning most of the profits in the smartphone industry, and one of AvonB7's major shortcomings, is that his context is always only smartphone sales, not the place of the iPhone in Apple's ecosystem.
As for Huawei, it may be that they will see this recession as a golden opportunity to shift more smartphones, and kill their competition, especially in China, but it is also that case that the world is quite a bit less enamored with all things China, and that is going to put a cap on Huawei sales worldwide, especially of their telecom infrastructure. Maybe that cap will be higher than Samsung's for smartphones, but I wouldn't count on that any time in the near future.
AvonB7 is easily one of the most partisan Android users here at AI, and is quite predicable in his posts.
For the record, has AvonB7 or GeorgeBMac, both purveyors "of all things must be 5G", purchased one of those must have 5G handsets that they keep touting?
Of course not.
They are all talk, and in September, Apple will deliver 5G, and I doubt that even a very small number of Apple users have switched to Android just to be early adopters.
Will this goose Apple sales? Probably not due to the COVID19 driven recession, but who knows. At any rate, I would expect Huawei to see flat sales worldwide, so AvonB7 might want to fuck off with "Apple's flat iPhone sales" meme for awhile.
In no particular order:
My current phone is not even out of warranty. Hence no immediate plans to upgrade. My next phone will definitely have 5G. Huawei has designed new SoCs to fit into lower price brackets without having to sacrifice key phone features and has added 5G to them.
You, on the other hand were interested in upgrading a couple of years ago but held off to wait for a tri-camera iPhone. That came but then you decided to hold off again but claim 5G has nothing to do with your decision. Sorry but you will understand if I raise an eyebrow to that claim.
Profits and ASP have zero relation to consumer purchasing decisions. We are talking phones here, not investment strategy.
I prefer Android to iOS on phones but deal with iOS on a daily basis which reinforces my preferenc.
I never underestimate Apple's place for iPhone in its ecosystem. I even made reference to it with my bums on seats comment. However, Android is an ecosystem too and within that Huawei has its own ecosystem.
Huawei's sales could flatten or fall but the difference here is that it would be solely due to external factors like not having access to the second largest smartphone market on the planet and the U.S government actively trying to destroy it.
It's fair to comment on my not purchasing an iPhone 11, after my interest in the triple camera, and the fact that I don't really have a need for a new iPhone at this point in time is certainly part of that. On the other hand, I also have a Formlabs 3D printer, which might benefit from the abilities of LIDAR that will be in the iPhone 12 to create 3D cloud data, so I will wait. The point is that I am not advocating any particular purchase position, merely stating mine.
You, on the other hand, have described/hyped 5G as a must have, yet, by definition, you have chosen to wait. So has GeorgeBMac. Hmmm. Maybe not must have after all if you are fine waiting for the benefits. See how that works?
As for Huawei sales, maybe if the CCP and Huawei weren't so closely linked, and Huawei wasn't state supported, and hadn't been caught shipping prohibited technology to Iran, and if Xi Jinping hadn't upped the dial on authoritarianism from 10 to 11 and beyond, the U.S. might not have a case against Huawei smartphones. But the U.S. has been suspicious of China long before Trump came into office. Frankly, people in the West are not willing to give China the benefit of the doubt on liberalization any more, and that is absolutely on Xi Jinping.
I've always here stated that telecom infrastructure is a National Security issue, and after all of the difficulty in obtaining PPE, and medical supplies from the "usual" sources in China, when all the while Chinese companies are buying up supplies around the world to ship home, I think that the West is having second thoughts about China.
I haven't chosen to wait. My upgrade cycle hasn't started yet. That window will open before the end of this year and stretch into next year. Plenty of time to evaluate the situation, features and prices. The same applies to my wife and her next phone.
The Huawei - China debate has no place here.
Your earlier arguments when 5G launched were that Apple would suffer for the lack of 5G in the iPhone 11, yet there isn't any evidence of that as all. Surely Apple users will wait for a feature they want, just as you or I will, and that has and will be the case fro 5G.
The Huawei-China debate does in fact have a place here, so if you don't like it, ignore it, but you can't complain about Huawei smartphone sales in the U.S. without acknowledging the National Security risk of Huawei.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When AvonB7 mentions that iPhone sales are flat for 4 years, fairly, he also doesn't mention that Apple still retains more than 50% of all of the profits from from all smartphone sales, and for AvonB7, he also doesn't mention that Apple's iPhone ASP is three to four times higher than the next most profitable, Samsung, nor that Apple's margins are 8 times Huawei's. Context is that these other companies ship a lot of very low price smartphones. The SE is Apple's quadrennial entry level device, and serves those that want an inexpensive device and don't require a lot of features.
That's the context, and maybe that context makes it more difficult for Apple to sell into India, as an example, but it also is a moat that assures that Apple will survive when most other companies will see low or no profits from the current world recession, and many will cease to exist.
My assumption is that Apple has "flattened" to around 180-210 million iPhone unit sales a year, which is indeed less than Huawei's some 240 million, but as a cudgel to beat Apple with, AvonB7 is in fact "tilting at windmills".
There isn't any downside to Apple owning most of the profits in the smartphone industry, and one of AvonB7's major shortcomings, is that his context is always only smartphone sales, not the place of the iPhone in Apple's ecosystem.
As for Huawei, it may be that they will see this recession as a golden opportunity to shift more smartphones, and kill their competition, especially in China, but it is also that case that the world is quite a bit less enamored with all things China, and that is going to put a cap on Huawei sales worldwide, especially of their telecom infrastructure. Maybe that cap will be higher than Samsung's for smartphones, but I wouldn't count on that any time in the near future.
AvonB7 is easily one of the most partisan Android users here at AI, and is quite predicable in his posts.
For the record, has AvonB7 or GeorgeBMac, both purveyors "of all things must be 5G", purchased one of those must have 5G handsets that they keep touting?
Of course not.
They are all talk, and in September, Apple will deliver 5G, and I doubt that even a very small number of Apple users have switched to Android just to be early adopters.
Will this goose Apple sales? Probably not due to the COVID19 driven recession, but who knows. At any rate, I would expect Huawei to see flat sales worldwide, so AvonB7 might want to fuck off with "Apple's flat iPhone sales" meme for awhile.
In no particular order:
My current phone is not even out of warranty. Hence no immediate plans to upgrade. My next phone will definitely have 5G. Huawei has designed new SoCs to fit into lower price brackets without having to sacrifice key phone features and has added 5G to them.
You, on the other hand were interested in upgrading a couple of years ago but held off to wait for a tri-camera iPhone. That came but then you decided to hold off again but claim 5G has nothing to do with your decision. Sorry but you will understand if I raise an eyebrow to that claim.
Profits and ASP have zero relation to consumer purchasing decisions. We are talking phones here, not investment strategy.
I prefer Android to iOS on phones but deal with iOS on a daily basis which reinforces my preferenc.
I never underestimate Apple's place for iPhone in its ecosystem. I even made reference to it with my bums on seats comment. However, Android is an ecosystem too and within that Huawei has its own ecosystem.
Huawei's sales could flatten or fall but the difference here is that it would be solely due to external factors like not having access to the second largest smartphone market on the planet and the U.S government actively trying to destroy it.
It's fair to comment on my not purchasing an iPhone 11, after my interest in the triple camera, and the fact that I don't really have a need for a new iPhone at this point in time is certainly part of that. On the other hand, I also have a Formlabs 3D printer, which might benefit from the abilities of LIDAR that will be in the iPhone 12 to create 3D cloud data, so I will wait. The point is that I am not advocating any particular purchase position, merely stating mine.
You, on the other hand, have described/hyped 5G as a must have, yet, by definition, you have chosen to wait. So has GeorgeBMac. Hmmm. Maybe not must have after all if you are fine waiting for the benefits. See how that works?
As for Huawei sales, maybe if the CCP and Huawei weren't so closely linked, and Huawei wasn't state supported, and hadn't been caught shipping prohibited technology to Iran, and if Xi Jinping hadn't upped the dial on authoritarianism from 10 to 11 and beyond, the U.S. might not have a case against Huawei smartphones. But the U.S. has been suspicious of China long before Trump came into office. Frankly, people in the West are not willing to give China the benefit of the doubt on liberalization any more, and that is absolutely on Xi Jinping.
I've always here stated that telecom infrastructure is a National Security issue, and after all of the difficulty in obtaining PPE, and medical supplies from the "usual" sources in China, when all the while Chinese companies are buying up supplies around the world to ship home, I think that the West is having second thoughts about China.
I haven't chosen to wait. My upgrade cycle hasn't started yet. That window will open before the end of this year and stretch into next year. Plenty of time to evaluate the situation, features and prices. The same applies to my wife and her next phone.
The Huawei - China debate has no place here.
Your earlier arguments when 5G launched were that Apple would suffer for the lack of 5G in the iPhone 11, yet there isn't any evidence of that as all. Surely Apple users will wait for a feature they want, just as you or I will, and that has and will be the case fro 5G.
The Huawei-China debate does in fact have a place here, so if you don't like it, ignore it, but you can't complain about Huawei smartphone sales in the U.S. without acknowledging the National Security risk of Huawei.
As I made clear. There is no place for the Huawei - China debate here. My point wasn't about that at all when I mentioned the situation in the U.S. It was to make clear that those two elements were to be considered. Nothing to do with the reasons for them. It was a business reference, not a political reference. A simple statement of fact.
Apple is suffering the lack of 5G on its handsets. There is no other way to see it. Anyone who wants 5G in their future is not buying iPhones. That makes a lot of sense. If Apple had 5G on its phones - now - that limitation would not exist.
You don't even need 'numbers' official or otherwise, to see that. If you want a 5G iPhone now, you only have one option: to wait. This is not debatable. As a result, Apple is impacted.
One of Apple's key markets (China) is currently dominating the 5G handset pie and now moving at an unprecedented rate. China has accelerated - for a third time - its 5G roll out. Handset sales are following the roll out and, as 5G chipsets cascade down the price bands, more and more customers are purchasing them.
Come September or October, Apple will release perhaps 3 premium flagship phones with 5G. The entirety of the model spread below those three phones will not have 5G unless they make another strategic change to include a new 5g chipset on older hardware.
Stop to think about it for a moment. 5G is going to be in even more demand by year end and even Apple will be pushing it! What impact do you think that will have on its non-5G models (and resale value if you are into that) in a market where almost all competitors will have 5G at virtually every price point.
At the end of 2019, 20 million 5G handsets had shipped. That exceeded expectations given they were limited to premium flagships. Now the 5G market has been flooded by new chipsets. Estimates put sales at 200 million by year end.
On the other hand, the year has barely started so real numbers hardly exist to even be able to gauge the impact so far.
My comments from last year obviously couldn't take account for COVID-19 and there will be an impact but everybody is in the same boat here. No one will get through this unscathed but, as I said earlier, not having a 5G handset now, is not a comfortable place to be in.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When AvonB7 mentions that iPhone sales are flat for 4 years, fairly, he also doesn't mention that Apple still retains more than 50% of all of the profits from from all smartphone sales, and for AvonB7, he also doesn't mention that Apple's iPhone ASP is three to four times higher than the next most profitable, Samsung, nor that Apple's margins are 8 times Huawei's. Context is that these other companies ship a lot of very low price smartphones. The SE is Apple's quadrennial entry level device, and serves those that want an inexpensive device and don't require a lot of features.
That's the context, and maybe that context makes it more difficult for Apple to sell into India, as an example, but it also is a moat that assures that Apple will survive when most other companies will see low or no profits from the current world recession, and many will cease to exist.
My assumption is that Apple has "flattened" to around 180-210 million iPhone unit sales a year, which is indeed less than Huawei's some 240 million, but as a cudgel to beat Apple with, AvonB7 is in fact "tilting at windmills".
There isn't any downside to Apple owning most of the profits in the smartphone industry, and one of AvonB7's major shortcomings, is that his context is always only smartphone sales, not the place of the iPhone in Apple's ecosystem.
As for Huawei, it may be that they will see this recession as a golden opportunity to shift more smartphones, and kill their competition, especially in China, but it is also that case that the world is quite a bit less enamored with all things China, and that is going to put a cap on Huawei sales worldwide, especially of their telecom infrastructure. Maybe that cap will be higher than Samsung's for smartphones, but I wouldn't count on that any time in the near future.
AvonB7 is easily one of the most partisan Android users here at AI, and is quite predicable in his posts.
For the record, has AvonB7 or GeorgeBMac, both purveyors "of all things must be 5G", purchased one of those must have 5G handsets that they keep touting?
Of course not.
They are all talk, and in September, Apple will deliver 5G, and I doubt that even a very small number of Apple users have switched to Android just to be early adopters.
Will this goose Apple sales? Probably not due to the COVID19 driven recession, but who knows. At any rate, I would expect Huawei to see flat sales worldwide, so AvonB7 might want to fuck off with "Apple's flat iPhone sales" meme for awhile.
In no particular order:
My current phone is not even out of warranty. Hence no immediate plans to upgrade. My next phone will definitely have 5G. Huawei has designed new SoCs to fit into lower price brackets without having to sacrifice key phone features and has added 5G to them.
You, on the other hand were interested in upgrading a couple of years ago but held off to wait for a tri-camera iPhone. That came but then you decided to hold off again but claim 5G has nothing to do with your decision. Sorry but you will understand if I raise an eyebrow to that claim.
Profits and ASP have zero relation to consumer purchasing decisions. We are talking phones here, not investment strategy.
I prefer Android to iOS on phones but deal with iOS on a daily basis which reinforces my preferenc.
I never underestimate Apple's place for iPhone in its ecosystem. I even made reference to it with my bums on seats comment. However, Android is an ecosystem too and within that Huawei has its own ecosystem.
Huawei's sales could flatten or fall but the difference here is that it would be solely due to external factors like not having access to the second largest smartphone market on the planet and the U.S government actively trying to destroy it.
It's fair to comment on my not purchasing an iPhone 11, after my interest in the triple camera, and the fact that I don't really have a need for a new iPhone at this point in time is certainly part of that. On the other hand, I also have a Formlabs 3D printer, which might benefit from the abilities of LIDAR that will be in the iPhone 12 to create 3D cloud data, so I will wait. The point is that I am not advocating any particular purchase position, merely stating mine.
You, on the other hand, have described/hyped 5G as a must have, yet, by definition, you have chosen to wait. So has GeorgeBMac. Hmmm. Maybe not must have after all if you are fine waiting for the benefits. See how that works?
As for Huawei sales, maybe if the CCP and Huawei weren't so closely linked, and Huawei wasn't state supported, and hadn't been caught shipping prohibited technology to Iran, and if Xi Jinping hadn't upped the dial on authoritarianism from 10 to 11 and beyond, the U.S. might not have a case against Huawei smartphones. But the U.S. has been suspicious of China long before Trump came into office. Frankly, people in the West are not willing to give China the benefit of the doubt on liberalization any more, and that is absolutely on Xi Jinping.
I've always here stated that telecom infrastructure is a National Security issue, and after all of the difficulty in obtaining PPE, and medical supplies from the "usual" sources in China, when all the while Chinese companies are buying up supplies around the world to ship home, I think that the West is having second thoughts about China.
I haven't chosen to wait. My upgrade cycle hasn't started yet. That window will open before the end of this year and stretch into next year. Plenty of time to evaluate the situation, features and prices. The same applies to my wife and her next phone.
The Huawei - China debate has no place here.
Your earlier arguments when 5G launched were that Apple would suffer for the lack of 5G in the iPhone 11, yet there isn't any evidence of that as all. Surely Apple users will wait for a feature they want, just as you or I will, and that has and will be the case fro 5G.
The Huawei-China debate does in fact have a place here, so if you don't like it, ignore it, but you can't complain about Huawei smartphone sales in the U.S. without acknowledging the National Security risk of Huawei.
As I made clear. There is no place for the Huawei - China debate here. My point wasn't about that at all when I mentioned the situation in the U.S. It was to make clear that those two elements were to be considered. Nothing to do with the reasons for them. It was a business reference, not a political reference. A simple statement of fact.
Apple is suffering the lack of 5G on its handsets. There is no other way to see it. Anyone who wants 5G in their future is not buying iPhones. That makes a lot of sense. If Apple had 5G on its phones - now - that limitation would not exist.
You don't even need 'numbers' official or otherwise, to see that. If you want a 5G iPhone now, you only have one option: to wait. This is not debatable. As a result, Apple is impacted.
One of Apple's key markets (China) is currently dominating the 5G handset pie and now moving at an unprecedented rate. China has accelerated - for a third time - its 5G roll out. Handset sales are following the roll out and, as 5G chipsets cascade down the price bands, more and more customers are purchasing them.
Come September or October, Apple will release perhaps 3 premium flagship phones with 5G. The entirety of the model spread below those three phones will not have 5G unless they make another strategic change to include a new 5g chipset on older hardware.
Stop to think about it for a moment. 5G is going to be in even more demand by year end and even Apple will be pushing it! What impact do you think that will have on its non-5G models (and resale value if you are into that) in a market where almost all competitors will have 5G at virtually every price point.
At the end of 2019, 20 million 5G handsets had shipped. That exceeded expectations given they were limited to premium flagships. Now the 5G market has been flooded by new chipsets. Estimates put sales at 200 million by year end.
On the other hand, the year has barely started so real numbers hardly exist to even be able to gauge the impact so far.
My comments from last year obviously couldn't take account for COVID-19 and there will be an impact but everybody is in the same boat here. No one will get through this unscathed but, as I said earlier, not having a 5G handset now, is not a comfortable place to be in.
You continue to be unable to consider that almost all Apple users would have passed on buying Android OS devices to get 5G today; they will wait until the release of the iPhone 12. If you have any data to support otherwise, now would be a good time to link it.
"My comments from last year obviously couldn't take account for COVID-19 and there will be an impact but everybody is in the same boat here. No one will get through this unscathed but, as I said earlier, not having a 5G handset now, is not a comfortable place to be in."
That is a completely unsupported statement, and is typical of your opinions of Apple. You might want to consider that COVID19 will, at best, create a worldwide recession that will last until there are widely distributed vaccines. Until then, purchase of consumer products will continue for those that have been less impacted, but not every smartphone manufacturer is "in the same boat", and Apple will almost certainly weather this market better than other manufacturers that have lower profits. That's why profits matter.
If you think that China hasn't been impacted by COVID-19, then you would be delusional, and China's overall revenue from smartphone sales is almost certainly going to suffer until vaccines are available, same as other countries.
For the record, you don't get to decide what is a proper forum to debate Huawei-China, that's up to the moderators, but given your love for all things Huawei, I can see why you would want to decide not to debate.
Perhaps if you didn't bring up Huawei as often as you do, then I wouldn't find the need to comment about Huawei's CCP connection, and their threat to the West's National Security.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When AvonB7 mentions that iPhone sales are flat for 4 years, fairly, he also doesn't mention that Apple still retains more than 50% of all of the profits from from all smartphone sales, and for AvonB7, he also doesn't mention that Apple's iPhone ASP is three to four times higher than the next most profitable, Samsung, nor that Apple's margins are 8 times Huawei's. Context is that these other companies ship a lot of very low price smartphones. The SE is Apple's quadrennial entry level device, and serves those that want an inexpensive device and don't require a lot of features.
That's the context, and maybe that context makes it more difficult for Apple to sell into India, as an example, but it also is a moat that assures that Apple will survive when most other companies will see low or no profits from the current world recession, and many will cease to exist.
My assumption is that Apple has "flattened" to around 180-210 million iPhone unit sales a year, which is indeed less than Huawei's some 240 million, but as a cudgel to beat Apple with, AvonB7 is in fact "tilting at windmills".
There isn't any downside to Apple owning most of the profits in the smartphone industry, and one of AvonB7's major shortcomings, is that his context is always only smartphone sales, not the place of the iPhone in Apple's ecosystem.
As for Huawei, it may be that they will see this recession as a golden opportunity to shift more smartphones, and kill their competition, especially in China, but it is also that case that the world is quite a bit less enamored with all things China, and that is going to put a cap on Huawei sales worldwide, especially of their telecom infrastructure. Maybe that cap will be higher than Samsung's for smartphones, but I wouldn't count on that any time in the near future.
AvonB7 is easily one of the most partisan Android users here at AI, and is quite predicable in his posts.
For the record, has AvonB7 or GeorgeBMac, both purveyors "of all things must be 5G", purchased one of those must have 5G handsets that they keep touting?
Of course not.
They are all talk, and in September, Apple will deliver 5G, and I doubt that even a very small number of Apple users have switched to Android just to be early adopters.
Will this goose Apple sales? Probably not due to the COVID19 driven recession, but who knows. At any rate, I would expect Huawei to see flat sales worldwide, so AvonB7 might want to fuck off with "Apple's flat iPhone sales" meme for awhile.
In no particular order:
My current phone is not even out of warranty. Hence no immediate plans to upgrade. My next phone will definitely have 5G. Huawei has designed new SoCs to fit into lower price brackets without having to sacrifice key phone features and has added 5G to them.
You, on the other hand were interested in upgrading a couple of years ago but held off to wait for a tri-camera iPhone. That came but then you decided to hold off again but claim 5G has nothing to do with your decision. Sorry but you will understand if I raise an eyebrow to that claim.
Profits and ASP have zero relation to consumer purchasing decisions. We are talking phones here, not investment strategy.
I prefer Android to iOS on phones but deal with iOS on a daily basis which reinforces my preferenc.
I never underestimate Apple's place for iPhone in its ecosystem. I even made reference to it with my bums on seats comment. However, Android is an ecosystem too and within that Huawei has its own ecosystem.
Huawei's sales could flatten or fall but the difference here is that it would be solely due to external factors like not having access to the second largest smartphone market on the planet and the U.S government actively trying to destroy it.
It's fair to comment on my not purchasing an iPhone 11, after my interest in the triple camera, and the fact that I don't really have a need for a new iPhone at this point in time is certainly part of that. On the other hand, I also have a Formlabs 3D printer, which might benefit from the abilities of LIDAR that will be in the iPhone 12 to create 3D cloud data, so I will wait. The point is that I am not advocating any particular purchase position, merely stating mine.
You, on the other hand, have described/hyped 5G as a must have, yet, by definition, you have chosen to wait. So has GeorgeBMac. Hmmm. Maybe not must have after all if you are fine waiting for the benefits. See how that works?
As for Huawei sales, maybe if the CCP and Huawei weren't so closely linked, and Huawei wasn't state supported, and hadn't been caught shipping prohibited technology to Iran, and if Xi Jinping hadn't upped the dial on authoritarianism from 10 to 11 and beyond, the U.S. might not have a case against Huawei smartphones. But the U.S. has been suspicious of China long before Trump came into office. Frankly, people in the West are not willing to give China the benefit of the doubt on liberalization any more, and that is absolutely on Xi Jinping.
I've always here stated that telecom infrastructure is a National Security issue, and after all of the difficulty in obtaining PPE, and medical supplies from the "usual" sources in China, when all the while Chinese companies are buying up supplies around the world to ship home, I think that the West is having second thoughts about China.
I haven't chosen to wait. My upgrade cycle hasn't started yet. That window will open before the end of this year and stretch into next year. Plenty of time to evaluate the situation, features and prices. The same applies to my wife and her next phone.
The Huawei - China debate has no place here.
Your earlier arguments when 5G launched were that Apple would suffer for the lack of 5G in the iPhone 11, yet there isn't any evidence of that as all. Surely Apple users will wait for a feature they want, just as you or I will, and that has and will be the case fro 5G.
The Huawei-China debate does in fact have a place here, so if you don't like it, ignore it, but you can't complain about Huawei smartphone sales in the U.S. without acknowledging the National Security risk of Huawei.
As I made clear. There is no place for the Huawei - China debate here. My point wasn't about that at all when I mentioned the situation in the U.S. It was to make clear that those two elements were to be considered. Nothing to do with the reasons for them. It was a business reference, not a political reference. A simple statement of fact.
Apple is suffering the lack of 5G on its handsets. There is no other way to see it. Anyone who wants 5G in their future is not buying iPhones. That makes a lot of sense. If Apple had 5G on its phones - now - that limitation would not exist.
You don't even need 'numbers' official or otherwise, to see that. If you want a 5G iPhone now, you only have one option: to wait. This is not debatable. As a result, Apple is impacted.
One of Apple's key markets (China) is currently dominating the 5G handset pie and now moving at an unprecedented rate. China has accelerated - for a third time - its 5G roll out. Handset sales are following the roll out and, as 5G chipsets cascade down the price bands, more and more customers are purchasing them.
Come September or October, Apple will release perhaps 3 premium flagship phones with 5G. The entirety of the model spread below those three phones will not have 5G unless they make another strategic change to include a new 5g chipset on older hardware.
Stop to think about it for a moment. 5G is going to be in even more demand by year end and even Apple will be pushing it! What impact do you think that will have on its non-5G models (and resale value if you are into that) in a market where almost all competitors will have 5G at virtually every price point.
At the end of 2019, 20 million 5G handsets had shipped. That exceeded expectations given they were limited to premium flagships. Now the 5G market has been flooded by new chipsets. Estimates put sales at 200 million by year end.
On the other hand, the year has barely started so real numbers hardly exist to even be able to gauge the impact so far.
My comments from last year obviously couldn't take account for COVID-19 and there will be an impact but everybody is in the same boat here. No one will get through this unscathed but, as I said earlier, not having a 5G handset now, is not a comfortable place to be in.
You continue to be unable to consider that almost all Apple users would have passed on buying Android OS devices to get 5G today; they will wait until the release of the iPhone 12. If you have any data to support otherwise, now would be a good time to link it.
"My comments from last year obviously couldn't take account for COVID-19 and there will be an impact but everybody is in the same boat here. No one will get through this unscathed but, as I said earlier, not having a 5G handset now, is not a comfortable place to be in."
That is a completely unsupported statement, and is typical of your opinions of Apple. You might want to consider that COVID19 will, at best, create a worldwide recession that will last until there are widely distributed vaccines. Until then, purchase of consumer products will continue for those that have been less impacted, but not every smartphone manufacturer is "in the same boat", and Apple will almost certainly weather this market better than other manufacturers that have lower profits. That's why profits matter.
If you think that China hasn't been impacted by COVID-19, then you would be delusional, and China's overall revenue from smartphone sales is almost certainly going to suffer until vaccines are available, same as other countries.
For the record, you don't get to decide what is a proper forum to debate Huawei-China, that's up to the moderators, but given your love for all things Huawei, I can see why you would want to decide not to debate.
Perhaps if you didn't bring up Huawei as often as you do, then I wouldn't find the need to comment about Huawei's CCP connection, and their threat to the West's National Security.
Once again, in no particular order.
I said Apple is already being impacted and gave my thinking on it in the same post.
I also said that the actual numbers were irrevelant at this point. Why? Because they simply don't exist. We haven't finished the year yet. We are still at the start.
We know Apple is impacted now because 5G is a reality now. If you are an iPhone user with 5G coverage you will be interested in a 5G phone which Apple doesn't have. Options? Wait (supposing you want to stick to using iPhones). Coverage will continue to expand, not least in China, which Apple is dependant on.
Those not interested in 5G have plenty of options. More with the SE but millions of people (Android and iPhone users) are interested in 5G. Of those, iPhone users have to wait and there is the impact for Apple.
Yes, COVID-19 will impact some users economically, possibly leading them to not upgrade or upgrade to lower priced phones. Those users will find lower priced Android 5G phones but not lower priced 5G iPhones (unless, as I mentioned, Apple makes further changes to its line up). Apple impacted again (unless you belong to that group of people that believe iPhone users are the affluent ones and won't be affected) . I hope you are not in that group and I hope people aren't affected so much come September but the possibility is real.
I don't think China hasn't been affected. I said everyone has been affected. The difference is that China has already committed to not only accelerating its 5G roll out but has just adjudicated billions more in 5G infrastructure. That will have a vast knock on effect for 5G throughout the country.
As for the Huawei - China appropriateness in this thread, I was talking from my personal perspective. I see no connection with the article so little reason to branch off. 5G is relevant as it was mentioned and the fact that the SE doesn't have it also makes it relevant.
You have made your claims anyway in other threads and nothing has changed since then. You have also admitted to being anti China. You have persistently confused Huawei with China, too .
I rarely bring Huawei up unless it is relevant for comparative purposes or someone pops up previously with the knock-off silliness or directly attempts to distort reality or some other nonsense. Example. Just recently someone jumped on the rumour that Apple might reduce the size of the notch to brazenly declare the knock-off brigade (in his mind anyway) would then 'copy' the move. Unfortunately, he was majorly wrong in the claim because Huawei had already shipped phones with that characteristic and not only that, they plunked another sensor in there.
Correcting those ill thought out claims means naming names.
I can't do the same with Google or Samsung or Oppo etc because I simply don't know enough about them.
Apples prices are still too high to overcome a new wave of DIY and opensource hardware/software designs hitting the market/home. Industrie in the future will be totally distributed, and as such non existent.
Oh yes, any year now the DIY neckbeards will inherit the earth. Hasn't happened in the past twenty years of Linux, but it's comin'! Riiight.
China would be a production powerhouse and the biggest economy, the prediction was 30 years or so in a row. Then people argued that - because it was predicted for such a long time - it would never come true.
Apples prices are still too high to overcome a new wave of DIY and opensource hardware/software designs hitting the market/home. Industrie in the future will be totally distributed, and as such non existent.
Oh yes, any year now the DIY neckbeards will inherit the earth. Hasn't happened in the past twenty years of Linux, but it's comin'! Riiight.
China would be a production powerhouse and the biggest economy, the prediction was 30 years or so in a row. Then people argued that - because it was predicted for such a long time - it would never come true.
Look at reality now.
China is not yet the largest economy. That is a fact, and the prediction that it s or soon will be the largest economy "soon" is based oin a lot of fiction from the CCP.
"One reason economic growth is slowing is that the government is still heavily involved with Chinese businesses. Another is that economic growth depends on consumers. When their income increases, they are able to buy more, which causes GDP to increase."
The fact that it is an authoritarian government, is one of numerous reasons that the West should disengage from China.
While you’re going on and on, do I have time to grab a beer?
Here’s a quick fact: A survey conducted recently by Piper-Sandler of 5,200 'Gen Z' teens revealed that 85% of them own an iPhone and that 88% plan on having an iPhone as their next device. Yes, this makes the iPhone an aspirational purchase among the next generation of tech purchasers. The affordably-priced iPhone SE will accelerate that trend. I am a classroom high school teacher and can attest to that reality. And I have never seen any of my students (or colleagues) purchase an Android device after having owned an iPhone, but I constantly see the reverse.
Another fact is that iPhone sales have been flat for four years and the survey you mention is not the first of its kind with that result (of course, limited to the U.S). Sales were still flat.
This SE move (which I support BTW as a valid move) is a reaction to those stalled sales. An ageing user base (phone age) means a lot of devices dropping off the services mill.
Apple now needs bums on seats and knows it can't entice them in with higher priced phones. The SE is there to try to achieve that goal.
Flat? Hmmm...
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
iPhone XR - 12%
iPhone 11 - 6%
iPhone 8 - 5%
iPhone 11 Pro Max - 4%
iPhone XS Max 3%
Sounds like desperate times indeed.
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
When you reply to a comment you have to remember that avon b7 is a well-known liar/troll and literally nothing they say should be take seriously. If you think otherwise then you’re likely a good candidate to add to my long list of ignored trolls.
It is even possible to print your own fully functional chips, it won't be with a feature size of 5nm, but more than enough to be as powerful as a computer from the eighties which is sufficient for most embedded applications.
BULLSHIT - you are so full of shit with this post that I HAD to call it out. Show me just one example of a 3D printer that can print ANY circuit board, let alone any functional chip...
Comments
According to Counterpoint Research, iPhone 11 raced to become the second-best-selling model globally for 2019 despite it being launched in September. Specifically in the US, the top five selling smartphones and their market share were as follows:
When you reply to a comment, you have to remember the context in which the comment was made. When Avon B7 mentions that iPhone sales are FLAT for 4 years, he was making a statement about overall iPhones sales across the WORLD for the last 4 calendar years. Providing details on iPhone sales in USA, Wuhan, Paris or Mexico does NOT change that.
Despite iPhone prices going up, Apple has continued to dominate the market and enjoy record quarters of profit again. They don’t care about your continual whining about market share, or chasing higher volume via lower prices. When the pricey X came out it outsold the cheaper 8 and that’s a fact. ASP for the win.
That crummier knockoff brands have rising sales doesn’t put them on equal footing as the handset at the top. When you’re not at the top it’s a given you will have more upward trajectory. That metric alone is meaningless.
Ahhh the good old days. When iKnockoff users claimed iPhones were overpriced and no one would buy a X for $1,000.....
Why are you limiting your argument only to the U.S?
Why are you limiting your marketshare argument to smartphone models?
Let's take the top three smartphone manufacturers worldwide: Samsung, BBK and Huawei.
They sell millions more phones than Apple but you will not find many of their models in the ranks of most sold models. Huawei absolutely dominates the Chinese market but you won't find any of its models in the top 5 there either.
The reason is crystal clear. Apple has such a tiny model spread that its sales numbers by models are higher.
In absolute terms though, sales remained flat.
Desperate times? That depends on your viewpoint.
Apple's smartphone sales are just a part of its larger business. If we focus on the phone side of things we see the needle hadn't moved for four years in spite of having around 80% of the market to aim for. It slipped out of the top three bracket for sales by manufacturer and when that happened it was the first time in literally years. It had to issue a profit warning. It was falling dangerously behind the technological level of competitors. Those competitors were moving into Apple's premium price bands. It has just launched a low cost iPhone.
I asked a very simple question at the end of my post. Here it is:
Apple needed the new SE, as stripped down as it may be, but do you really think Apple was all in on the idea or that it felt that market conditions simply made it something they had to do?
What is your answer to that question?
Also, please remember the context here. My post was on parts of article. I rarely read those things as they are so unbalanced (as highlighted by my comments) and I had to stop reading because it was just seeing one questionable claim after another.
If you believe I am wrong, take issue with the points I raised. You didn't do that. You just went off on your own tangent which unfortunately was misrepresentative as you limited your argument to the U.S when you were fully aware that nothing here was limited to that market.
That's the context, and maybe that context makes it more difficult for Apple to sell into India, as an example, but it also is a moat that assures that Apple will survive when most other companies will see low or no profits from the current world recession, and many will cease to exist.
My assumption is that Apple has "flattened" to around 180-210 million iPhone unit sales a year, which is indeed less than Huawei's some 240 million, but as a cudgel to beat Apple with, AvonB7 is in fact "tilting at windmills".
There isn't any downside to Apple owning most of the profits in the smartphone industry, and one of AvonB7's major shortcomings, is that his context is always only smartphone sales, not the place of the iPhone in Apple's ecosystem.
As for Huawei, it may be that they will see this recession as a golden opportunity to shift more smartphones, and kill their competition, especially in China, but it is also that case that the world is quite a bit less enamored with all things China, and that is going to put a cap on Huawei sales worldwide, especially of their telecom infrastructure. Maybe that cap will be higher than Samsung's for smartphones, but I wouldn't count on that any time in the near future.
AvonB7 is easily one of the most partisan Android users here at AI, and is quite predicable in his posts.
For the record, has AvonB7 or GeorgeBMac, both purveyors "of all things must be 5G", purchased one of those must have 5G handsets that they keep touting?
Of course not.
They are all talk, and in September, Apple will deliver 5G, and I doubt that even a very small number of Apple users have switched to Android just to be early adopters.
Will this goose Apple sales? Probably not due to the COVID19 driven recession, but who knows. At any rate, I would expect Huawei to see flat sales worldwide, so AvonB7 might want to fuck off with "Apple's flat iPhone sales" meme for awhile.
Past glories only count for nostalgia points. Just ask Blackberry, Kodak, Sony etc.
Nostalgia is fine but what moves this particular industry - today - is competition, which is exactly how it should be. Apple is responding to that competition (albeit slowly) which is also how it should be.
Your second paragraphs makes no sense at all. Samsung and Huawei are on a more than equal footing to Apple. Far ahead even in many respects.
Consumers, the people who buy products, have ZERO interest in if a company is making the most profits.
Apple's position is vastly different to back then although some similarities do remain between the reasons for both SEs.
Yes, price was and is key but his phone has more focus on price because the difference between this SE and its high end brothers and sisters is far more marked than with the last SE.
The difference in design is far more striking this time around too.
As is the price gap between this iteration and its high end siblings. As is the core technology on it (FaceID vs TouchID for example).
The SE is the fruit of market realities, not Apple desires. Apple spent a lot of time and effort extolling the virtues of 'full screen' phones and FaceID over foreheads, chins and TouchID, even using marketing to pit its new deigns against its old designs no sooner had the entire line moved to the X factor design.
Now we are seeing a complete reversal of those aspects so Apple has no option to put the focus on where it had to be: price.
However, there are huge differences between this SE and the last SE in terms of the situations surrounding both phones. Those situations are key here.
Nevertheless the move was desperately needed and for the reasons I gave. I support the decision.
My current phone is not even out of warranty. Hence no immediate plans to upgrade. My next phone will definitely have 5G. Huawei has designed new SoCs to fit into lower price brackets without having to sacrifice key phone features and has added 5G to them.
You, on the other hand were interested in upgrading a couple of years ago but held off to wait for a tri-camera iPhone. That came but then you decided to hold off again but claim 5G has nothing to do with your decision. Sorry but you will understand if I raise an eyebrow to that claim.
Profits and ASP have zero relation to consumer purchasing decisions. We are talking phones here, not investment strategy.
I prefer Android to iOS on phones but deal with iOS on a daily basis which reinforces my preferenc.
I never underestimate Apple's place for iPhone in its ecosystem. I even made reference to it with my bums on seats comment. However, Android is an ecosystem too and within that Huawei has its own ecosystem.
Huawei's sales could flatten or fall but the difference here is that it would be solely due to external factors like not having access to the second largest smartphone market on the planet and the U.S government actively trying to destroy it.
You, on the other hand, have described/hyped 5G as a must have, yet, by definition, you have chosen to wait. So has GeorgeBMac. Hmmm. Maybe not must have after all if you are fine waiting for the benefits. See how that works?
As for Huawei sales, maybe if the CCP and Huawei weren't so closely linked, and Huawei wasn't state supported, and hadn't been caught shipping prohibited technology to Iran, and if Xi Jinping hadn't upped the dial on authoritarianism from 10 to 11 and beyond, the U.S. might not have a case against Huawei smartphones. But the U.S. has been suspicious of China long before Trump came into office. Frankly, people in the West are not willing to give China the benefit of the doubt on liberalization any more, and that is absolutely on Xi Jinping.
I've always here stated that telecom infrastructure is a National Security issue, and after all of the difficulty in obtaining PPE, and medical supplies from the "usual" sources in China, when all the while Chinese companies are buying up supplies around the world to ship home, I think that the West is having second thoughts about China.
https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3081415/coronavirus-china-faces-fight-hang-foreign-manufacturers-us
I am not advocating a phone but pointing out some of the clear flaws in this piece and giving examples that I know of.
I am already laying the groundwork to move to non-Google services, download from the AppGallery and use Huawei Cloud Services (which are based on servers within the EU).
I have no issues with Google but the situation is what it is. As the scouts say, be prepared!
Competition is good and I'll do my bit.
The Huawei - China debate has no place here.
The Huawei-China debate does in fact have a place here, so if you don't like it, ignore it, but you can't complain about Huawei smartphone sales in the U.S. without acknowledging the National Security risk of Huawei.
Apple is suffering the lack of 5G on its handsets. There is no other way to see it. Anyone who wants 5G in their future is not buying iPhones. That makes a lot of sense. If Apple had 5G on its phones - now - that limitation would not exist.
You don't even need 'numbers' official or otherwise, to see that. If you want a 5G iPhone now, you only have one option: to wait. This is not debatable. As a result, Apple is impacted.
One of Apple's key markets (China) is currently dominating the 5G handset pie and now moving at an unprecedented rate. China has accelerated - for a third time - its 5G roll out. Handset sales are following the roll out and, as 5G chipsets cascade down the price bands, more and more customers are purchasing them.
Come September or October, Apple will release perhaps 3 premium flagship phones with 5G. The entirety of the model spread below those three phones will not have 5G unless they make another strategic change to include a new 5g chipset on older hardware.
Stop to think about it for a moment. 5G is going to be in even more demand by year end and even Apple will be pushing it! What impact do you think that will have on its non-5G models (and resale value if you are into that) in a market where almost all competitors will have 5G at virtually every price point.
At the end of 2019, 20 million 5G handsets had shipped. That exceeded expectations given they were limited to premium flagships. Now the 5G market has been flooded by new chipsets. Estimates put sales at 200 million by year end.
On the other hand, the year has barely started so real numbers hardly exist to even be able to gauge the impact so far.
My comments from last year obviously couldn't take account for COVID-19 and there will be an impact but everybody is in the same boat here. No one will get through this unscathed but, as I said earlier, not having a 5G handset now, is not a comfortable place to be in.
"My comments from last year obviously couldn't take account for COVID-19 and there will be an impact but everybody is in the same boat here. No one will get through this unscathed but, as I said earlier, not having a 5G handset now, is not a comfortable place to be in."
That is a completely unsupported statement, and is typical of your opinions of Apple. You might want to consider that COVID19 will, at best, create a worldwide recession that will last until there are widely distributed vaccines. Until then, purchase of consumer products will continue for those that have been less impacted, but not every smartphone manufacturer is "in the same boat", and Apple will almost certainly weather this market better than other manufacturers that have lower profits. That's why profits matter.
If you think that China hasn't been impacted by COVID-19, then you would be delusional, and China's overall revenue from smartphone sales is almost certainly going to suffer until vaccines are available, same as other countries.
For the record, you don't get to decide what is a proper forum to debate Huawei-China, that's up to the moderators, but given your love for all things Huawei, I can see why you would want to decide not to debate.
Perhaps if you didn't bring up Huawei as often as you do, then I wouldn't find the need to comment about Huawei's CCP connection, and their threat to the West's National Security.
I said Apple is already being impacted and gave my thinking on it in the same post.
I also said that the actual numbers were irrevelant at this point. Why? Because they simply don't exist. We haven't finished the year yet. We are still at the start.
We know Apple is impacted now because 5G is a reality now. If you are an iPhone user with 5G coverage you will be interested in a 5G phone which Apple doesn't have. Options? Wait (supposing you want to stick to using iPhones). Coverage will continue to expand, not least in China, which Apple is dependant on.
Those not interested in 5G have plenty of options. More with the SE but millions of people (Android and iPhone users) are interested in 5G. Of those, iPhone users have to wait and there is the impact for Apple.
Yes, COVID-19 will impact some users economically, possibly leading them to not upgrade or upgrade to lower priced phones. Those users will find lower priced Android 5G phones but not lower priced 5G iPhones (unless, as I mentioned, Apple makes further changes to its line up). Apple impacted again (unless you belong to that group of people that believe iPhone users are the affluent ones and won't be affected) . I hope you are not in that group and I hope people aren't affected so much come September but the possibility is real.
I don't think China hasn't been affected. I said everyone has been affected. The difference is that China has already committed to not only accelerating its 5G roll out but has just adjudicated billions more in 5G infrastructure. That will have a vast knock on effect for 5G throughout the country.
As for the Huawei - China appropriateness in this thread, I was talking from my personal perspective. I see no connection with the article so little reason to branch off. 5G is relevant as it was mentioned and the fact that the SE doesn't have it also makes it relevant.
You have made your claims anyway in other threads and nothing has changed since then. You have also admitted to being anti China. You have persistently confused Huawei with China, too .
I rarely bring Huawei up unless it is relevant for comparative purposes or someone pops up previously with the knock-off silliness or directly attempts to distort reality or some other nonsense. Example. Just recently someone jumped on the rumour that Apple might reduce the size of the notch to brazenly declare the knock-off brigade (in his mind anyway) would then 'copy' the move. Unfortunately, he was majorly wrong in the claim because Huawei had already shipped phones with that characteristic and not only that, they plunked another sensor in there.
Correcting those ill thought out claims means naming names.
I can't do the same with Google or Samsung or Oppo etc because I simply don't know enough about them.
Then people argued that - because it was predicted for such a long time - it would never come true.
https://www.patriotledger.com/news/20191223/china-vs-usa
"One reason economic growth is slowing is that the government is still heavily involved with Chinese businesses. Another is that economic growth depends on consumers. When their income increases, they are able to buy more, which causes GDP to increase."
The fact that it is an authoritarian government, is one of numerous reasons that the West should disengage from China.