Apple unveils new 13-inch MacBook Pro with Magic Keyboard

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  • Reply 41 of 134
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,964member
    For me it's a very weak update but most importantly for me, it puts the MBP back on my radar for the first time since late 2016.

    If my current MBPs and Air were to fail, I would at least have an option. Some of the biggest faults for me were the keyboard, price and the gluefest. 

    Price and keyboard are not big problems now. The gluefest probably continues but the base storage boost is a plus. 

    The TouchBar is something I have zero need for and resent having to pay for an element many could live without.

    Still, there are positives for me. I'll wait to see how future updates go because not upgrading in late 2016 has shown me that I didn't have a pressing need to upgrade although I thought I did. I can wait things out. 
    dysamoriaGeorgeBMacMplsPAI_liasBeats
  • Reply 42 of 134
    A maxed out MacBook Air (with 16 GB RAM and 1 TB of storage) comes in a couple hundred bucks less than the "best" default option at the Apple store.  The main difference between the two appear to be:
    1. Form factor
    2. "1.2GHz quad-core 10th-generation Intel Core i7 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.8GHz" for the Air and "2.0GHz quad-core 10th-generation Intel Core i5 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.8GHz" for the 13-inch.
    3. 2 versus 4 thunderbolt ports.
    4. (edit) "
    16GB 2133MHz LPDDR3" for the Air and "16GB 3733MHz LPDDR4X" for the Pro.

    Any guesses as to whether the Air with a slower i7 or the Pro with the faster i5 (but both Turbo Boosting to 3.8) would be faster on day-to-day work?  They have the same video card and same number of cores, same amount (but different speed) RAM.  There are likely to perform about the same, right?  So it's just a matter of deciding which form factor you like?
    edited May 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 134
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    neilm said:
    KITA said:
    Still no dGPU?

    Razer fit a GTX 1650 Ti Max-Q 4 GB into their 3 lbs laptop with a 25W Ice Lake i7 CPU. They also have the option for a 120 Hz or 4K display.

    As well, AMD's 4000U series (up to 8 cores and 16 threads at 15 W) is hitting the market with far better performance than this in both CPU and iGPU performance.

    Apple fixing their keyboard is nice, but this is a very weak update.
    The problem with a dGPU in a 13" laptop, where there's not much room for a big battery, is battery drain. The Razer you cite is optimized for gaming, which isn't Apple's thing. I can't find any claims for how long its battery lasts under load, but my guess is that its usage case calls for AC power to be connected for any kind of extended use with the dGPU active. I do see that the Razer calls for a 100W AC power supply, which seems...troubling.
    Not to mention the heat... On any laptop, the thermals are problematic. There’s just no room. 
    StrangeDaysanomewatto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 134
    KITAKITA Posts: 409member
    neilm said:
    KITA said:
    Still no dGPU?

    Razer fit a GTX 1650 Ti Max-Q 4 GB into their 3 lbs laptop with a 25W Ice Lake i7 CPU. They also have the option for a 120 Hz or 4K display.

    As well, AMD's 4000U series (up to 8 cores and 16 threads at 15 W) is hitting the market with far better performance than this in both CPU and iGPU performance.

    Apple fixing their keyboard is nice, but this is a very weak update.
    The problem with a dGPU in a 13" laptop, where there's not much room for a big battery, is battery drain. The Razer you cite is optimized for gaming, which isn't Apple's thing. I can't find any claims for how long its battery lasts under load, but my guess is that its usage case calls for AC power to be connected for any kind of extended use with the dGPU active. I do see that the Razer calls for a 100W AC power supply, which seems...troubling.
    The laptop has an iGPU as well, if a user chooses to optimize for longer battery life when away from the plug, that's always an option (the same iGPU in the MBP). GTX 1650 Ti Max-Q is the extreme case of what's possible, there have always been options for the MX250/MX350 for better than iGPU performance. "optimized for gaming" is a bit odd to say - a relatively powerful CUDA dGPU is excellent for all sorts of productivity applications outside of gaming.

    Of course, all of this is rather moot when a laptop with a 15W Ryzen 7 4800U will wipe the floor with even a 25W Ice Lake chip.

    mdriftmeyer
  • Reply 45 of 134
    KITAKITA Posts: 409member
    dysamoria said:
    neilm said:
    KITA said:
    Still no dGPU?

    Razer fit a GTX 1650 Ti Max-Q 4 GB into their 3 lbs laptop with a 25W Ice Lake i7 CPU. They also have the option for a 120 Hz or 4K display.

    As well, AMD's 4000U series (up to 8 cores and 16 threads at 15 W) is hitting the market with far better performance than this in both CPU and iGPU performance.

    Apple fixing their keyboard is nice, but this is a very weak update.
    The problem with a dGPU in a 13" laptop, where there's not much room for a big battery, is battery drain. The Razer you cite is optimized for gaming, which isn't Apple's thing. I can't find any claims for how long its battery lasts under load, but my guess is that its usage case calls for AC power to be connected for any kind of extended use with the dGPU active. I do see that the Razer calls for a 100W AC power supply, which seems...troubling.
    Not to mention the heat... On any laptop, the thermals are problematic. There’s just no room. 
    Comparing the last generation 2019 Razer (GTX 1650 Max-Q) and the 2019 MBP.

    Peak surface temperature under load:

    MBP - 113 F
    Razer - 116 F

    Peak power consumption under load:

    MBP - 63 W
    Razer - 71 W

    "One definite positive is the fact that the Razer Blade Stealth can hold its GPU performance without any throttling in our The Witcher 3 loop. After an hour, there is only a very small drop in GPU performance."
    mdriftmeyer
  • Reply 46 of 134
    pujones1pujones1 Posts: 222member
    No Wifi 6? Not cool. I guess I'll have to wait longer. Just want to be on at least the latest standard before I upgrade. Maybe next year. Dag. I was ready to pull the trigger.
  • Reply 47 of 134
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 2,732member
    macxpress said:
    ITGUYINSD said:
    Leave it to Apple to half-do something.  Why still have 8th-gen chips in 2 of the 3 base configs?  Why not have 10th-gen chips in all the new configs?  8th-gen is slowly fading off the horizon, yet you have to spend $1800 just to get an i5 10th-gen chip?  One can buy a Dell laptop with a 10th-gen i5 for $500.  It's hardly "premium" (by PC/Windows standards, anyways).

    A 10th-gen i5-based MBP13 with 256GB SSD and 8GB RAM for $1299 would have been a natural upgrade.
    I suspect cost was the biggest reason. Most people don't care about the generation of CPU anyways and if they did they'd get the 16" version. People will buy the 13" regardless. This is essentially a non-issue
    Not really because there is another mainstream 13" Mac laptop (MBA) that now comes standard with Intel's 10th Gen CPU.  So why would one buy the entry-level 13" MBP over the MBA?
    KITA
  • Reply 48 of 134
    Only 3 lbs. Folks will upgrade. Graduation present coming up. Father's day. I'm long overdue to upgrade myself.

    I'm long overdue to upgrade myself too, but I think I'll just upgrade my computer...
    randominternetpersonstompyRayz2016dewmeright_said_fredking editor the grateDAalsethchiapscooter63
  • Reply 49 of 134
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,771member
    neilm said:
    ap1971 said:
    Quick question. I need a Macbook Pro without Touch Bar.  Is any model available now? 
    "Need"?

    No, other than maybe old stock in the retail chain, or possibly a refurb — either of which would mean settling for the old keyboard. Not a good idea. 

    Other than price, there's no obvious reason to prefer the non-TB version of the MBP. If you don't like the TB, just ignore it. It's not in the way. And with the TB you get the fingerprint reader, which is well worthwhile, and with this new MBP the physical ESC key has now been restored, which matters to some people.
    Maybe he spends all his time emulating a VT-220 terminal and is addicted to those physical F-keys.  I'm sure there are 2 or 3 users out there with that use case.  Yes, Apple has "abandoned" those (niche) users.  Oh well.
    As someone else mentioned, it's common for production software to make extensive use of the function keys. My bread-winner app, Pro Tools, uses them for switching editing modes, something I do almost as often as hitting "play." Not having them would significantly impact my workflow and productivity.
    KITAMplsP
  • Reply 50 of 134
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 13,042member
    DAalseth said:
    So...they just swapped out the keyboard, LED screen and the CPU and memory!  It probably took Apple engineer in charge about 1/2 hour to do and have it go to quality control.  Will Apple give us a gold MacBook Pro color?
    You obviously have no idea how much engineering goes into even "minor" changes.

    In this case the updated MBP does not use the same keyboard and screen as the 16". They had to be designed from scratch for the smaller chassis. Then they were tested and then redesigned and retested to make sure they worked properly. As far as the CPU, that likely at least required fresh firmware, if not board level changes, either of which would have had to be designed, tested, adjusted to fix any unexpected problems, adjusted again, and so on. Even minor changes are a hell of a lot of work by a team that put in a lot of hours to make it work right. In some ways it's harder to update an existing product than it is to blue sky design a new product without any legacy constraints.
    It's amazing the way non-experts have the ability to over-simplify anything into a trivial task. We see this a lot in software -- customers/users often say "It's not a big change at all, we just need it to do this..." But it is, almost always. Especially considering all the invisible layers in software engineering. UI, controllers, business object, data access layers, providers, the database, its schema, the procs, etc etc... So many things the users never see and are completely ignorant about. It all just seems effortless and easy to them.

    I have no reason to believe its any different with hardware engineering. 
    mwhitechiaRayz2016pscooter63
  • Reply 51 of 134
    rain22rain22 Posts: 132member
    Saving wifi 6 as a selling feature for the ARM version I guess. 
    Yesterday’s tech at tomorrow’s prices. 
    I don’t see anyone buying it outside of pure desperation at this point.


  • Reply 52 of 134
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,771member

    macxpress said:
    Really disappointed not seeing the 16" being upgraded to the 10th gen processors, ATI, or a better GPU. 
    The 13" is a weird product. To me it seems you're better off buying the Air, because a "Pro" machine with integrated graphics doesn't really seem appealing at all.
    Here we go with the what does Pro mean shit. Ever think that not everyone needs a dGPU? Even "pros"? If they did, they could always use an eGPU at their desk if they happened to need more GPU performance and also have a nice light travel laptop at the same time. 
    Maybe it's the work I do, but I've never understood that reasoning. The whole point of buying a laptop instead of a desktop computer is to be able to work wherever I happen to be. The demands of my work do not magically become lighter just because I'm away from my primary work station. What I need the computer to do stays the same whether I'm in the studio or on a client site. To me, buying a machine that only performs well when "docked" seems self-defeating.
    KITA
  • Reply 53 of 134
    neilm said:
    ap1971 said:
    Quick question. I need a Macbook Pro without Touch Bar.  Is any model available now? 
    "Need"?

    No, other than maybe old stock in the retail chain, or possibly a refurb — either of which would mean settling for the old keyboard. Not a good idea. 

    Other than price, there's no obvious reason to prefer the non-TB version of the MBP. If you don't like the TB, just ignore it. It's not in the way. And with the TB you get the fingerprint reader, which is well worthwhile, and with this new MBP the physical ESC key has now been restored, which matters to some people.
    Maybe he spends all his time emulating a VT-220 terminal and is addicted to those physical F-keys.  I'm sure there are 2 or 3 users out there with that use case.  Yes, Apple has "abandoned" those (niche) users.  Oh well.
    As someone else mentioned, it's common for production software to make extensive use of the function keys. My bread-winner app, Pro Tools, uses them for switching editing modes, something I do almost as often as hitting "play." Not having them would significantly impact my workflow and productivity.
    Have you actually tested this hypothesis?  Have you tried working with one for a few days and seeing if your muscle memory doesn't solve the (potential) problem?

    Personally, I like the touch bar and prefer it for things like changing volume and brightness.  The only things I used the physical keys for were for those actions (which are better done with a slider than key presses).  But I suppose I'm not "pro" enough.
    stompychiapscooter63
  • Reply 54 of 134
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    avon b7 said:
    For me it's a very weak update but most importantly for me, it puts the MBP back on my radar for the first time since late 2016.

    If my current MBPs and Air were to fail, I would at least have an option. Some of the biggest faults for me were the keyboard, price and the gluefest. 

    Price and keyboard are not big problems now. The gluefest probably continues but the base storage boost is a plus. 

    The TouchBar is something I have zero need for and resent having to pay for an element many could live without.

    Still, there are positives for me. I'll wait to see how future updates go because not upgrading in late 2016 has shown me that I didn't have a pressing need to upgrade although I thought I did. I can wait things out. 

    When the Touch Bar was originally introduced Apple suggested that it was a substitute for a touch screen which they claimed was a non-starter.
    It would be interesting to see a survey of (potential) MacBook users if the they would prefer:
    A)  Touchscreen
    b)  TouchBar
    C)  Neither (and a price cut)
    D)  Both (and a price increase)

    I would choose "C".
    ...  I don't like to have to think about what my fingers are doing -- I want them to simply type out the words I am thinking.  And, anything that keeps changing and moving (whether its a touchbar or touchscreen) is just something to ignore.
    edited May 2020
  • Reply 55 of 134
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,465member
    macxpress said:
    Really disappointed not seeing the 16" being upgraded to the 10th gen processors, ATI, or a better GPU. 
    The 13" is a weird product. To me it seems you're better off buying the Air, because a "Pro" machine with integrated graphics doesn't really seem appealing at all.
    Here we go with the what does Pro mean shit. Ever think that not everyone needs a dGPU? Even "pros"? 
    Following your line, then apple should have a Macbook Pro 16 without dGPU, since not everyone needs a dGPU, right?
    If they did, they could always use an eGPU at their desk if they happened to need more GPU performance and also have a nice light travel laptop at the same time. 
    What about users that need to work at the office and home, travel frequently?  Does it makes sense you to carry on the dGPU or maybe buy two of them?  Or it will be better for them to have a light laptop with optional dGPU, like companies like HP and Lenovo do with their mobile workstations?
    KITAlorin schultz
  • Reply 56 of 134
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,666member
    neilm said:
    While the long-rumored 14" display remains vaporware, we do now have a 32GB RAM option in the small MBP. It's no particular bargain at $400 on top of the 16GB configuration, but at least it's there. The available extra RAM and a physical ESC key are going to please developers.

    I don't recall exactly how much my maxed out 2016 MBP with its 3.1GHz dual-core/16GB/1TB/TouchBar cost at the time, but I think it was around $2700-2800. Today's updated MBP with 2.3-4.1GHz quad-core/32GB/1TB/TouchBar and a presumably fixed keyboard runs $2600. So, faster and with double the RAM for similar or less money. OK!
    Incorrect use of the term "vaporware." Vaporware occurs when a company implies or even announces that it will be releasing a product or feature and fails to do so or does so far beyond the promised release timeframe. Anything that's coming out of the rumor mill, like the 14" MBP at this point, is "rumorware" or "speculatorware" and cannot be pinned on the maker of the product or feature in question. It's important to differentiate because it's unfair to paint Apple in a negative light when they have absolutely no control over the rumor mill and speculators.

    Yes, this new MBP is definitely a "spec bump release." However, if there was ever a perfect time to do a spec bump release, 2020 is the perfect time for it. Consumers at all levels, individual to enterprise, are not really in a buying frenzy mood due to the global pandemic and its devastating economic impact. Releasing a brand new or major overhauled product when so many folks are reeling from the current economic situation is not going to have nearly the impact that it would have under normal circumstances.  Apple cannot stimulate the market if consumers have no money to spend, no matter what they release. By the time everyone gets back on their feet and primed to buy, the 2020 product releases will no longer be the latest & greatest and the competition will have used the soft market to react and reload their ammo belts, perhaps with some one-up differentiation because you already showed your cards during the soft market.

    Nobody predicted nor planned for the current situation. But now that the current situation is here, some tactical moves that make the best of the current reality are not a bad way to go. This will work out very nicely if the longer term strategy is still being staged for the bigger opportunities on the other side of the situation we are now dealing with, When consumers finally get into a big spending cycle Apple better have exactly the right products to tap into that huge opportunity, and we're not talking spec bump releases at that point. 

    Timing is everything.
    randominternetpersonStrangeDayspscooter63MisterKit
  • Reply 57 of 134
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,771member
    neilm said:
    ap1971 said:
    Quick question. I need a Macbook Pro without Touch Bar.  Is any model available now? 
    "Need"?

    No, other than maybe old stock in the retail chain, or possibly a refurb — either of which would mean settling for the old keyboard. Not a good idea. 

    Other than price, there's no obvious reason to prefer the non-TB version of the MBP. If you don't like the TB, just ignore it. It's not in the way. And with the TB you get the fingerprint reader, which is well worthwhile, and with this new MBP the physical ESC key has now been restored, which matters to some people.
    Maybe he spends all his time emulating a VT-220 terminal and is addicted to those physical F-keys.  I'm sure there are 2 or 3 users out there with that use case.  Yes, Apple has "abandoned" those (niche) users.  Oh well.
    As someone else mentioned, it's common for production software to make extensive use of the function keys. My bread-winner app, Pro Tools, uses them for switching editing modes, something I do almost as often as hitting "play." Not having them would significantly impact my workflow and productivity.
    Have you actually tested this hypothesis?  Have you tried working with one for a few days and seeing if your muscle memory doesn't solve the (potential) problem?

    Personally, I like the touch bar and prefer it for things like changing volume and brightness.  The only things I used the physical keys for were for those actions (which are better done with a slider than key presses).  But I suppose I'm not "pro" enough.

    If you didn't use the old F keys constantly for a primary function of your software, it's not surprising that you wouldn't miss them. I suspect spending an afternoon editing in Pro Tools would give you a different perspective. You'll be hitting an F key every few seconds.

    To answer your question, yes, for a while I tried to work with just the laptop's keys, Touch Bar, and the mouse. It's certainly possible, but it's comparatively cumbersome and much slower. I TOTALLY understand your point about muscle memory, but in this case there really is a difference in efficiency. I now just carry a full-size keyboard with me. I'd prefer not to, though.
    randominternetperson
  • Reply 58 of 134
    kpomkpom Posts: 660member
    A maxed out MacBook Air (with 16 GB RAM and 1 TB of storage) comes in a couple hundred bucks less than the "best" default option at the Apple store.  The main difference between the two appear to be:
    1. Form factor
    2. "1.2GHz quad-core 10th-generation Intel Core i7 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.8GHz" for the Air and "2.0GHz quad-core 10th-generation Intel Core i5 processor, Turbo Boost up to 3.8GHz" for the 13-inch.
    3. 2 versus 4 thunderbolt ports.
    4. (edit) "16GB 2133MHz LPDDR3" for the Air and "16GB 3733MHz LPDDR4X" for the Pro.

    Any guesses as to whether the Air with a slower i7 or the Pro with the faster i5 (but both Turbo Boosting to 3.8) would be faster on day-to-day work?  They have the same video card and same number of cores, same amount (but different speed) RAM.  There are likely to perform about the same, right?  So it's just a matter of deciding which form factor you like?
    The Pro (even the 8th generation in the base model) will be much faster at CPU-intensive tasks than the top-of-the-line Air. The Air has a 10Q processor that maxes out around 12W, while the base Pro has a 15W processor that maxes out at 25W, and the top-of-the-line Pro has a 28W processor. In English, it means that the Pros can run at those top Turbo Boost speeds for much longer than the Air. If you push the Air’s CPU, it drops down to about 1.6GHz for sustained use. It gets those Turbo Boost speeds only for short periods of time, which is fine for opening apps, etc. The Pros can sustain them, which is better for things like video encoding.
    stompyrandominternetpersoncorradokidjdb8167
  • Reply 59 of 134
    neilm said:
    ap1971 said:
    Quick question. I need a Macbook Pro without Touch Bar.  Is any model available now? 
    "Need"?

    No, other than maybe old stock in the retail chain, or possibly a refurb — either of which would mean settling for the old keyboard. Not a good idea. 

    Other than price, there's no obvious reason to prefer the non-TB version of the MBP. If you don't like the TB, just ignore it. It's not in the way. And with the TB you get the fingerprint reader, which is well worthwhile, and with this new MBP the physical ESC key has now been restored, which matters to some people.
    Maybe he spends all his time emulating a VT-220 terminal and is addicted to those physical F-keys.  I'm sure there are 2 or 3 users out there with that use case.  Yes, Apple has "abandoned" those (niche) users.  Oh well.
    As someone else mentioned, it's common for production software to make extensive use of the function keys. My bread-winner app, Pro Tools, uses them for switching editing modes, something I do almost as often as hitting "play." Not having them would significantly impact my workflow and productivity.
    Have you actually tested this hypothesis?  Have you tried working with one for a few days and seeing if your muscle memory doesn't solve the (potential) problem?

    Personally, I like the touch bar and prefer it for things like changing volume and brightness.  The only things I used the physical keys for were for those actions (which are better done with a slider than key presses).  But I suppose I'm not "pro" enough.

    If you didn't use the old F keys constantly for a primary function of your software, it's not surprising that you wouldn't miss them. I suspect spending an afternoon editing in Pro Tools would give you a different perspective. You'll be hitting an F key every few seconds.

    To answer your question, yes, for a while I tried to work with just the laptop's keys, Touch Bar, and the mouse. It's certainly possible, but it's comparatively cumbersome and much slower. I TOTALLY understand your point about muscle memory, but in this case there really is a difference in efficiency. I now just carry a full-size keyboard with me. I'd prefer not to, though.
    Isn't it possible to make the function keys display permanently in Touch Bar when using Protools? 

    I don't have a Touch Bar Mac yet, and I use a few F keys regularly in AutoCAD.  I looked up how AutoCAD uses Touch Bar and they simply replace the F# button labels with icon labels when using their app, so the button layout is the same, just the button graphics are different (but consistent with the on screen UI).
    razorpitchiaMisterKitBeats
  • Reply 60 of 134
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,666member

    macxpress said:
    Really disappointed not seeing the 16" being upgraded to the 10th gen processors, ATI, or a better GPU. 
    The 13" is a weird product. To me it seems you're better off buying the Air, because a "Pro" machine with integrated graphics doesn't really seem appealing at all.
    Here we go with the what does Pro mean shit. Ever think that not everyone needs a dGPU? Even "pros"? If they did, they could always use an eGPU at their desk if they happened to need more GPU performance and also have a nice light travel laptop at the same time. 
    Maybe it's the work I do, but I've never understood that reasoning. The whole point of buying a laptop instead of a desktop computer is to be able to work wherever I happen to be. The demands of my work do not magically become lighter just because I'm away from my primary work station. What I need the computer to do stays the same whether I'm in the studio or on a client site. To me, buying a machine that only performs well when "docked" seems self-defeating.
    What you're describing is an ideal scenario, but one that's not always possible. Even with a high performance notebook/laptop as my primary development machine, I've always had a "docked" setup for development that included two large (24" minimum) high resolution monitors mounted on repositionable arms, a full sized keyboard placed at an ergonomic position, and a separate trackball (and sometimes an additional mouse). Over the last several years the "optimal" setup includes a standing desk as well. This is the optimal setup, but because I travel quite a bit and must be as productive as possible when traveling, I can still still use the laptop in a less-then-optimal standalone configuration, sometimes with an iPad as a secondary display.

    There's no way I'd ever be able to drag my optimal setup on the road, much less on a plane on a 19 hour flight. There's also no way that I can refuse to accept anything less than the optimal setup to be productive. So yeah, maybe you can get by with one setup that fits all of your needs, but for a lot of folks whose jobs are dependent on making the best of the situation and being productive under varying circumstances, it's essential that we adapt our tools to provide the best productivity under each situation we have to deal with. This requirement includes augmenting our docked setups with everything we can get to take advantage of the opportunities that being docked allow us to use. Using only the built-in capabilities of a notebook/laptop when "docked" would squander productivity for a lot of workers. The cost of additional hardware is minuscule compared to the opportunity cost of less-than-optimal human resources, especially engineers and designers.
    randominternetpersonroundaboutnowtheLedgerstompymacxpresschiapscooter63GeorgeBMac
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