My Theory On Motrola
I do not proclaim to be a computer engineer officiando so now that's cleared up here goes...
I think Moto is too busy in manufacturing their chips for cell phones and other electronic goodies to be concerned about a new processor for Apple. The economics of selling x million chips for a computer verses selling x million more chips for cell phones, etc. is probably more lucrative on the bottom line. And let's face facts, corporate America is in buisiness to make big bucks. My take and I welcome more feedback from those smarter about this industry.
I think Moto is too busy in manufacturing their chips for cell phones and other electronic goodies to be concerned about a new processor for Apple. The economics of selling x million chips for a computer verses selling x million more chips for cell phones, etc. is probably more lucrative on the bottom line. And let's face facts, corporate America is in buisiness to make big bucks. My take and I welcome more feedback from those smarter about this industry.
Comments
<strong>Guy: it's not like Motorolla consists of three people locked in a bedroom scrambling to make all of their products. It's a big company with many departments and thousands of employees. They're doing what they can, how they can. Just leave them alone and stop with the conspiracy theories. They're in it to make money, and you can't make money if your customer, especially a big one like Apple, is unhappy. There's a reason things are like it is, and it's not to get revenge on Apple for cutting out the clones, or some other conspiracy theory. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong>
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I do not believe that what I stated has anything to do with a "conspiracy" as you put it. I simply made an observation based on an economic reason, nothing more nothing less...step away from the X-Files dude and catch your breath!
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>
I do not believe that what I stated has anything to do with a "conspiracy" as you put it. I simply made an observation based on an economic reason, nothing more nothing less...step away from the X-Files dude and catch your breath! </strong><hr></blockquote>
First of all, today's cellphone chip is based on yesterday's cutting edge. Motorola is aware - and has always been aware - that the desktop chips it designs can have long and profitable careers as embedded processors (it still sells 68ks in volume) and so it has always designed its desktop processors with one eye on embedded use. Desktop applications traditionally tolerate higher power consumption requirements and higher prices, so they're a great proving ground for new designs, and a good way to pay off R&D and fab costs so that the years of embedded sales are pure gravy.
Second, "embedded" no longer means "low power." There are now embedded applications that demand as much or more power than PC applications do (and PC applications with requirements that are traditionally those of the embedded market: notebooks, the new iMac, etc.). The 7455 - Mot's latest and greatest G4 - is being hailed as a great processor in embedded circles. Mot is selling the biggest, fastest processors it makes to Cisco for use in routers, and if they build bigger, faster chips, Cisco will buy those. With the line between embedded and desktop applications blurred, Motorola doesn't bother making the distinction anymore. A desktop chip is basically just a mid- to high-end embedded chip. Book E will blur the distinction even further by allowing for modular processor design.
Mot semiconductor appears to be on a rebound now, and it's fueled by sales of new, fast processors. That's not going to change any time soon.
[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]
[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
<strong>
First of all, today's cellphone chip is based on yesterday's cutting edge. Motorola is aware - and has always been aware - that the desktop chips it designs can have long and profitable careers as embedded processors (it still sells 68ks in volume) and so it has always designed its desktop processors with one eye on embedded use. Desktop applications traditionally tolerate higher power consumption requirements and higher prices, so they're a great proving ground for new designs, and a good way to pay off R&D and fab costs so that the years of embedded sales are pure gravy.
Second, "embedded" no longer means "low power." There are now embedded applications that demand as much or more power than PC applications do (and PC applications with requirements that are traditionally those of the embedded market: notebooks, the new iMac, etc.). The 7455 - Mot's latest and greatest G4 - is being hailed as a great processor in embedded circles. Mot is selling the biggest, fastest processors it makes to Cisco for use in routers, and if they build bigger, faster chips, Cisco will buy those. With the line between embedded and desktop applications blurred, Motorola doesn't bother making the distinction anymore. A desktop chip is basically just a mid- to high-end embedded chip. Book E will blur the distinction even further by allowing for modular processor design.
Mot semiconductor appears to be on a rebound now, and it's fueled by sales of new, fast processors. That's not going to change any time soon.
[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]
[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you for a more intelligent reply!!
The PowerPC line of products is hugely popular in the embedded marketspace - they put 'em in cars, planes, power stations and all sorts of other places. They're also big for Apple, obviously. Thus there is no logical reason why Motorola Semiconductor wouldn't do everything humanly possible to make as much money as they possibly can in these markets - regadless of what is being done in the telecom sector.
IOW, selling as many telecom-related products as possible and selling as many semiconductor products as possible (PPC) are in no way mutually exclusive. Most of why we are where we are is simply managerial incompetance - nothing more complicated than that. But hopefully that's all begun to change with the exodus of a lot of dead-weight employees and an infusion of new management and management practices.
[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ? ]</p>
<strong>Robert, if you want the short answer in response to your theory it would be "not likely." Motorola is most certainly in business to make big money, but the point Gambit was trying to make is that Motorola has huge market demand for products other than those related to mobile phones.
The PowerPC line of products is hugely popular in the embedded marketspace - they put 'em in cars, planes, power stations and all sorts of other places. They're also big for Apple, obviously. Thus there is no logical reason why Motorola Semiconductor wouldn't do everything humanly possible to make as much money as they possibly can in these markets - regadless of what is being done in the telecom sector.
IOW, selling as many telecom-related products as possible and selling as many semiconductor products as possible (PPC) are in no way mutually exclusive. Most of why we are where we are is simply managerial incompetance - nothing more complicated than that. But hopefully that's all begun to change with the exodus of a lot of dead-weight employees and an infusion of new management and management practices.
[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ™ ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for another good answer. Moogs , I have been reading all sorts of info on this board as to the g4 and the soon to be g5 chip and I wondered if their communications market was a bigger picture than the pc chip market. I am in no way bashing Moto or anyone else, just curious as to the long time to turn out a chip that will meet the Apple speed junkies needs. Thanks once again for the info!
I think the dekstop range will probably top out around 1.3 GHz, the pro laptop around 1.1 GHz and the consumer stuff around 1GHz (by year's end I mean). Whether the pro stuff will include revamped mobo technologies is another thing all together and something I won't get into because the thread will get hijacked in that general direction.
<strong>Thanks, Moogs, for clarifying my point; I didn't mean for it to sound so much like a flame. Just tired of all the lame threads about things we've discussed to death a year ago, like: "Finder needs to be written in Cocoa", "OS X SUXORZ", and all those other ones. I just thought this was gonna be one of those.</strong><hr></blockquote>
what does it take?
Even if MOTO went in front of the nation and said "We hate apple and have been doing everything possible to f*ck them up" there would still be some of you claiming "Hey, there's NO conspiracy!" and "get real Pal, MOTO is a business".
It must be nice to live in a world where people are totally logical and fair like that.
Christ haven't you guys EVER been shafted by someone who just didn't like you? yet somehow you think business people are a superior breed above all that nastiness?
MOTO will suck apple under. Its just a matter of time
<strong>Jeez,
what does it take?
Even if MOTO went in front of the nation and said "We hate apple and have been doing everything possible to f*ck them up" there would still be some of you claiming "Hey, there's NO conspiracy!" and "get real Pal, MOTO is a business".</strong><hr></blockquote>
Mot SPS has their feet to the fire to become profitable. That's because Mot's CEO has his head on a chopping block for running the company into the ground. The people Mot is bringing in to turn the company around are outsiders with no background in the clone-era tiff between Mot and Apple, and with little sympathy for any kind of waste. The shareholders are sharpening pitchforks and lighting torches and threatening to take Mot away from the family that founded the company, so there's no time for grudges.
Mot literally cannot afford to be pissed off about the death of CHRP. It happened. It didn't really cost them that much in the end. And Mot is under extreme pressure to make nice with its customers.
[quote]<strong>It must be nice to live in a world where people are totally logical and fair like that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And it must be hell to live in a world where no-one ever is.
[ 03-21-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
It's not a conspiracy theory, jackass, it's about human nature. If Jobs pissed off enough Motorola executives when he killed the clones, then it would not be surprising if they intentionally under-funded desktop PPC R&D for a few years. They are probably over that by now, but the damage is done, Apple was froze at 500 MHz for almost 2 years. And that 500 MHz debacle came a few years after Jobs ended the clones, just the right amount of time for changes in R&D budgets to have an effect on shipping product.
Nobody is saying that Moto executives snuck into the engineering labs at night and sabotaged development projects. All they need to do is cut funding here and there, refuse to help certain development teams, etc. Also worthy of noting is that following the end of the clones, Motorola switched all of their computers to Wintel systems.
Doesn't it seem a bit odd that Motorola doesn't even use ANY computers run by PPC? That's like walking into the parking lot of a Ford auto plant and seeing nothing but Toyotas and Hondas! Obviously there was bad blood between Apple and Motorola, although by now relations are probably fine.
<strong>I do not proclaim to be a computer engineer officiando so now that's cleared up here goes...
I think Moto is too busy in manufacturing their chips for cell phones and other electronic goodies to be concerned about a new processor for Apple. The economics of selling x million chips for a computer verses selling x million more chips for cell phones, etc. is probably more lucrative on the bottom line. And let's face facts, corporate America is in buisiness to make big bucks. My take and I welcome more feedback from those smarter about this industry.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The problem is that Motorola is dirty. Their process is sloppy, their fabs are dirty, and they don't provide their engineers with sufficient resources/support. As such their yields basically suck on high end parts. They can design them just fine, they just can't manufacture them. In the past they've often had to turn to an outside foundry to provide them with manufacturing support. If you can't build it you can't sell it.