Microsoft contributes to Java port for Apple silicon Macs

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 45
    Foxcatcher - great for searching within files for text inc Office Docs and PDF's. Oracle stopped offering a supported JVM for Catalina. I'm always open for alternatives though but I have not come upon anything even remotely as good as Foxcatcher.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 45
    Will this port of JRE be available through the App Store? And if not, will installation of this JRE through manual downloading and installation be accompanied by any warnings from Apple, perhaps like the Digital Signature from Apple being absent? And will it require admin privilege to install?
    No and no.
    (...)
    Ok, interesting. I came from an ancient era where I had to install a JRE app on my computer before I could run Javascript on web pages. And you're explaining that that's all done within the web browser now, I think. That's good progress.

    That's all wrong. :-)

    1: Java never had anything to do with Javascript. The latter's naming was an early attempt to jump on Java's coattails and has spent decades confusing people ever since.
    2: Yes, you needed a JRE on the computer to run *applets*, which ran in the browser, and Java Webstart apps, launched from the browser. They were written in Java. Not Javascript.
    3: There is no java in the browser now. Applets are a thing of the past. So is Webstart.
    4: But Javascript (which is still not Java) is all in the browser... and always has been.
    fastasleeproundaboutnowjdb8167bkkcanuckwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 45
    Foxcatcher - great for searching within files for text inc Office Docs and PDF's. Oracle stopped offering a supported JVM for Catalina. I'm always open for alternatives though but I have not come upon anything even remotely as good as Foxcatcher.

    If you do still need a JRE for some legacy app that *doesn't* embed one of its own, install a JDK from AdoptOpenJDK.net.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 45
    BeatsBeats Posts: 2,913member
    cloudguy said:
    Beats said:
    mjtomlin said:
    Beats said:
    Do you think Apple will have a closed App Store except for rare software? I'm thinking Apple is gonna reset apps for Mac with Apple Silicon. This will close security holes etc.

    No.

    Right. Didn't work for iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch.

    /s
    Apples and oranges. iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch aren't productivity or enterprise platforms for software people (developers, programmers, architects, engineers), IT workers or lots of other professionals. Such people are going to make heavy use of software and tools that will never be in any app store. In fact, even if it isn't heavy use but rather even very occasional use - like once every couple of months - that tool has to be available if you need it for your job. Some people need tools that they literally have to pull down from GitHub and compile from source, for instance. Locking down Macs would take Apple back to the 1990s - prior to switching to Intel and in particular before iPods and later iPhones caused Apple market share and mindshare to explode - when the only people who use Macs are the creative crowd. 

    Why not? This is small thinking. Plus like I said "rare software" that most regular people will never need. Apple could also provide App suites.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 45
    BeatsBeats Posts: 2,913member
    Rayz2016 said:
    Beats said:
    mjtomlin said:
    Beats said:
    Do you think Apple will have a closed App Store except for rare software? I'm thinking Apple is gonna reset apps for Mac with Apple Silicon. This will close security holes etc.

    No.

    Right. Didn't work for iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch.

    /s
    True, but on the other hand, millions of developers aren’t using iPhones, iPads and the Apple Watch to run the IntelliJ toolset, Docker, Eclipse, Git clients, static website builders …

    True. I just can't imagine Apple hasn't thought of this.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 45
    Rayz2016 said:

    rob53 said:
    Why? Java isn't going to make use of all the Apple-specific capabilities, it's just going to continue to run on Macs. What Java applications do people even use anymore?
    I code Java for a living, and Groovy too, increasingly, and Kotlin's on the horizon. All JVM languages. But I use Macs to do it, by *strong* preference. It's not the primary target platform for the products I'm working on (although it runs on it just fine), but it's the one I choose to use to do the work. I could fall back to Linux or Windows (in order of preference), but I'd rather not. And as long as I don't have to, I'm still in the market for shiny new apple kit on a regular basis. And there's lots like me.

    Of course part of me remembers Steve Jobs promising that Java was going to be an equal first class citizen for writing Mac apps, back when OSX came out. But <sigh/>.
    How is Groovy doing these days?


    I'm still pretty new to it so I don't really have a history of it in my head to compare it to. Was just looking for something for server-side scripting after Nashorn Javascript got deprecated. Actually like Groovy much much better.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 45
    rob53 said:
    Why? Java isn't going to make use of all the Apple-specific capabilities, it's just going to continue to run on Macs. What Java applications do people even use anymore?

    Eclipse, IntelliJ and a million in-house enterprise applications - you do like Macs being used in businesses right?

    Minecraft


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 45
    rcfa said:
    So, for all these years there was no arm64 version of a JVM?


    For Linux, yes - I run it on a Raspberry Pi I have available - it can even run Java Minecraft (badly, the GPU in a Pi is extremely weak and has not seen the improvements the CPU has in the past 8 years). OpenJDK has been available on Windows ARM version since earlier this year.

    Rayz2016 said:
    How is Groovy doing these days?

    One thing I know is that it is getting a small foothold in Java unit/integration testing with the Spock framework.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 45
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Will this port of JRE be available through the App Store? And if not, will installation of this JRE through manual downloading and installation be accompanied by any warnings from Apple, perhaps like the Digital Signature from Apple being absent? And will it require admin privilege to install?
    No and no.
    (...)
    Ok, interesting. I came from an ancient era where I had to install a JRE app on my computer before I could run Javascript on web pages. And you're explaining that that's all done within the web browser now, I think. That's good progress.

    That's all wrong. :-)

    1: Java never had anything to do with Javascript. The latter's naming was an early attempt to jump on Java's coattails and has spent decades confusing people ever since.
    2: Yes, you needed a JRE on the computer to run *applets*, which ran in the browser, and Java Webstart apps, launched from the browser. They were written in Java. Not Javascript.
    3: There is no java in the browser now. Applets are a thing of the past. So is Webstart.
    4: But Javascript (which is still not Java) is all in the browser... and always has been.
    This still seems to confuse people, especially during interviews. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 45
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member

    Rayz2016 said:

    rob53 said:
    Why? Java isn't going to make use of all the Apple-specific capabilities, it's just going to continue to run on Macs. What Java applications do people even use anymore?
    I code Java for a living, and Groovy too, increasingly, and Kotlin's on the horizon. All JVM languages. But I use Macs to do it, by *strong* preference. It's not the primary target platform for the products I'm working on (although it runs on it just fine), but it's the one I choose to use to do the work. I could fall back to Linux or Windows (in order of preference), but I'd rather not. And as long as I don't have to, I'm still in the market for shiny new apple kit on a regular basis. And there's lots like me.

    Of course part of me remembers Steve Jobs promising that Java was going to be an equal first class citizen for writing Mac apps, back when OSX came out. But <sigh/>.
    How is Groovy doing these days?


    I'm still pretty new to it so I don't really have a history of it in my head to compare it to. Was just looking for something for server-side scripting after Nashorn Javascript got deprecated. Actually like Groovy much much better.
    Fair enough. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 45
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Beats said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Beats said:
    mjtomlin said:
    Beats said:
    Do you think Apple will have a closed App Store except for rare softwarej? I'm thinking Apple is gonna reset apps for Mac with Apple Silicon. This will close security holes etc.

    No.

    Right. Didn't work for iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch.

    /s
    True, but on the other hand, millions of developers aren’t using iPhones, iPads and the Apple Watch to run the IntelliJ toolset, Docker, Eclipse, Git clients, static website builders …

    True. I just can't imagine Apple hasn't thought of this.
    They have thought of this. That’s why they’re not going to lock down MacOS and force countless developers to move back to Windows or Linux. 
    fastasleepjdb8167bkkcanuckwatto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 45
    hattig said:
    rcfa said:
    So, for all these years there was no arm64 version of a JVM?


    For Linux, yes - I run it on a Raspberry Pi I have available - it can even run Java Minecraft (badly, the GPU in a Pi is extremely weak and has not seen the improvements the CPU has in the past 8 years). OpenJDK has been available on Windows ARM version since earlier this year.

    Rayz2016 said:
    How is Groovy doing these days?

    One thing I know is that it is getting a small foothold in Java unit/integration testing with the Spock framework.
    Yes, I can see how it would be very good for that.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 45
    Beats said:
    cloudguy said:
    Beats said:
    mjtomlin said:
    Beats said:
    Do you think Apple will have a closed App Store except for rare software? I'm thinking Apple is gonna reset apps for Mac with Apple Silicon. This will close security holes etc.

    No.

    Right. Didn't work for iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch.

    /s
    Apples and oranges. iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch aren't productivity or enterprise platforms for software people (developers, programmers, architects, engineers), IT workers or lots of other professionals. Such people are going to make heavy use of software and tools that will never be in any app store. In fact, even if it isn't heavy use but rather even very occasional use - like once every couple of months - that tool has to be available if you need it for your job. Some people need tools that they literally have to pull down from GitHub and compile from source, for instance. Locking down Macs would take Apple back to the 1990s - prior to switching to Intel and in particular before iPods and later iPhones caused Apple market share and mindshare to explode - when the only people who use Macs are the creative crowd. 

    Why not? This is small thinking. Plus like I said "rare software" that most regular people will never need. Apple could also provide App suites.
    Why do you keep hammering at this subject in multiple threads? They specifically said at WWDC they’re not locking down the Mac and that you’d continue to be able to install any software you want, including open source stuff they’re even contributing to themselves. You can stop now. 


    jdb8167bkkcanuckwatto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 45
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,031member
    Beats said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Beats said:
    mjtomlin said:
    Beats said:
    Do you think Apple will have a closed App Store except for rare software? I'm thinking Apple is gonna reset apps for Mac with Apple Silicon. This will close security holes etc.

    No.

    Right. Didn't work for iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch.

    /s
    True, but on the other hand, millions of developers aren’t using iPhones, iPads and the Apple Watch to run the IntelliJ toolset, Docker, Eclipse, Git clients, static website builders …

    True. I just can't imagine Apple hasn't thought of this.
    They have, that's why users have the option to restrict their machines to only run software from the Mac App Store, or only from certificated developers, or from anywhere.  You can lock it down if you want, but for those that that don't want to, or can't because of their workflow, there are alternative options.

    The flaw with the theory is right there  in your OP "except for rare software".  And then except for developer software.  And then except for virtualisation software.  And then again for legacy enterprise software.

    Once you've got a critical mass of exceptions you have something that's unworkable, so you need to comprimise.
    edited September 2020 fastasleep
  • Reply 35 of 45
    Will this port of JRE be available through the App Store? And if not, will installation of this JRE through manual downloading and installation be accompanied by any warnings from Apple, perhaps like the Digital Signature from Apple being absent? And will it require admin privilege to install?
    No and no.
    (...)
    Ok, interesting. I came from an ancient era where I had to install a JRE app on my computer before I could run Javascript on web pages. And you're explaining that that's all done within the web browser now, I think. That's good progress.

    That's all wrong. :-)

    1: Java never had anything to do with Javascript. The latter's naming was an early attempt to jump on Java's coattails and has spent decades confusing people ever since.
    2: Yes, you needed a JRE on the computer to run *applets*, which ran in the browser, and Java Webstart apps, launched from the browser. They were written in Java. Not Javascript.
    3: There is no java in the browser now. Applets are a thing of the past. So is Webstart.
    4: But Javascript (which is still not Java) is all in the browser... and always has been.
    Uh - no.  Many servers out there with IPMI remote console tools that still require Java to be installed and launch as an applet/webstart.  I still administrate several.
    edited September 2020 watto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 45
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,031member
    nicholfd said:
    Will this port of JRE be available through the App Store? And if not, will installation of this JRE through manual downloading and installation be accompanied by any warnings from Apple, perhaps like the Digital Signature from Apple being absent? And will it require admin privilege to install?
    No and no.
    (...)
    Ok, interesting. I came from an ancient era where I had to install a JRE app on my computer before I could run Javascript on web pages. And you're explaining that that's all done within the web browser now, I think. That's good progress.

    That's all wrong. :-)

    1: Java never had anything to do with Javascript. The latter's naming was an early attempt to jump on Java's coattails and has spent decades confusing people ever since.
    2: Yes, you needed a JRE on the computer to run *applets*, which ran in the browser, and Java Webstart apps, launched from the browser. They were written in Java. Not Javascript.
    3: There is no java in the browser now. Applets are a thing of the past. So is Webstart.
    4: But Javascript (which is still not Java) is all in the browser... and always has been.
    Uh - no.  Many servers out there with IPMI remote console tools that still require Java to be installed and launch as an applet/webstart.  I still administrate several.
    Java applets are deprecated in the HTML spec and none of the major modern browsers suppport them in their most recent versions.  You're right that there will still be some legacy business systems knocking around that require users to load up Internet Explorer, or some out of support browser version, but in general terms it's not a thing any more.  No one is writing new java applets.
    jdb8167
  • Reply 37 of 45
    dewme said:
    rob53 said:
    duplicate--something is really going slow
    There is something wonky happening with AppleInsider commenting right now. I tried it with Safari and Firefox on iPad and I couldn’t get an edit cursor until toggled the expander (double arrow) in the upper right of the edit box. Once I did that everything seems better for now, but it may be just a coincidence.
    You couldn’t even get an edit cursor? Is there server side code? I’ve noticed the edit boxes are crappy. Their dimensions aren’t equal to the visual indicator of the box and autocorrect is a mess in them on this site.
  • Reply 38 of 45
    Rayz2016 said:

    rob53 said:
    Why? Java isn't going to make use of all the Apple-specific capabilities, it's just going to continue to run on Macs. What Java applications do people even use anymore?
    I code Java for a living, and Groovy too, increasingly, and Kotlin's on the horizon. All JVM languages. But I use Macs to do it, by *strong* preference. It's not the primary target platform for the products I'm working on (although it runs on it just fine), but it's the one I choose to use to do the work. I could fall back to Linux or Windows (in order of preference), but I'd rather not. And as long as I don't have to, I'm still in the market for shiny new apple kit on a regular basis. And there's lots like me.

    Of course part of me remembers Steve Jobs promising that Java was going to be an equal first class citizen for writing Mac apps, back when OSX came out. But <sigh/>.
    How is Groovy doing these days?


    I'm still pretty new to it so I don't really have a history of it in my head to compare it to. Was just looking for something for server-side scripting after Nashorn Javascript got deprecated. Actually like Groovy much much better.
    It’s Groovy! (Sorry, couldn’t resist;)
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 45
    It would probably never happen, but could you imagine Apple selling chips for use on Windows machines someday? What a turn of events that would be. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 45
    Can you imagine going back to the late 1990s and telling people that Microsoft would be helping to build a JVM for an open source project that would help Mac users?
    watto_cobrahexclock
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