Apple will shut this guy down, and I don't see anything wrong with it. Apple is not Microsoft; Microsoft crushes operating system support illegally, by offering huge "discounts" to vendors who don't offer any other OS (actually jacking up the prices of Windows so high that anyone who provides another OS can't afford it). They screwed BeOS this way, and they'll screw any other commercial OS.
On the other hand, Apple controls both hardware and software. They aren't breaking the law. From their website: " Our designers and engineers agonize over every millimeter of every new Macintosh model, and every pixel of the user interface."
This is what makes the Mac so stylish and reliable! And Apple doesn't want someone subverting that with their $200 POS beige boxes. If someone purchases the 'iBox' and has a lot of problems with it under Mac OS X, then it reflects poorly on Apple.
They are control freaks because they see what can happen when you relinquish control (Windows and especially Linux). Muddled software UI, cheap, malfunctioning hardware, lack of any kind of underlying focus in design.
So...when they shut this guy down, don't go crying "Apple is Microsoft!" Microsoft illegally used/uses its monopoly in the operating system market to force its way into other markets (For example, they sabotaged Windows NT so that it would crash Netscape Directory Server, so people would switch to Exchange).
Apple is making sure that the Mac doesn't ever get associated with ugly, cheap-ass, cobbled-together hardware. And I can't blame them for that.
Well, I can say I am extremely interested. I had an iMac 450 and it just went dead on me a few months back. The problem was, to replace it would have cost me at least 600. Not worth it. And, I could get an Emac for 750, but that comes with a screen I cannot remove. I know, I know, the iMac had one like that, but I got it GIVEN to me. I put up with a Beige G3/333 (o'ced from 300) for a few months, but it was too slow. So combining harddrives and cheaper graphics cards etc, I have built myself a 1.8 gig Athlon for under 400. VERY decent for video work, has a Geforce 4 MX 440, firewire, usb 2, dvd drive, and cd burner. The thing is, it is Windows, which after just being on it for a week and a half, am looking forward to the day I can switch back. This is the reason I am so interested in this project. There is no way on earth I can afford to buy a Mac at Apple's prices. 1500??!?? Witht his headless Mac, the only thing I could ask for is to get it also with a Processor for around 4-500, and I would buy. I can use other parts I already have. Sure, I will not have support. But, it is simply price holding me back from moving back. I LOVE Mac OSX, but it just is not feasible to stay with it. I hope this guy can have a successful business, and if not, that somehow Apple will listen and build a good, CHEAP machine.
Since Fraser is sort of doing this as a hobby, we tend to be sympathetic. Many of us like to see a little guy succeed in the business world. Still, if he is building this iBox with newly manufactured motherboards, he is essentially a clone maker who does not even pay Apple a license fee. Apple cannot permit him to continue, and it is better to stop him before he has much invested in the operation. It's my impression from the article that he plans to use older design motherboards that Apple sold to computer repair outfits as spare parts. These were never intended to go into a newly manufactured product. So, I do not see how Apple is acting heavy handed, or stopping a legal operation by threats of lawsuits.
Even if Apple were silly enough to have no contractual control over the disposition of spare parts, you can bet that such a contract will soon be in place. So the most Fraser could build is from existing inventory of spare parts, even in such a scenario.
Now, if Fraser gets his motherboards by salvaging them from obsolete Macs, he would likely be within his rights to do so, and I doubt Apple would stop him. He would be a computer rebuilder, and not a manufacturer of new products.
He's not selling them with a Mac OS installed or on CDs. You provide your own. From somewhere else. Licensing fees apply to when he's selling the OS along with the computer. He has to pay Apple for the OS so he can sell it. If he's not buying anything from Apple, then he doesn't have to pay them anything. See how that works? At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it works. If somehow he has to pay Apple to buid a Mac-compatible computer that doesn't include the Mac OS, then tell me. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to. In fact, maybe he could even work with Yellow Dog Linux to include YDL 3.0 on these boxes.
I do think he should change the name from "iBox" to something else, though. Not only is putting a lowercase i in front of a word a very Apple-esque thing which will provide ammo for Apple's case against him, but also it's just dumb sounding. If I hear any more iSomething's I think I'm going to puke. It's bad enough that I own an iBook with iTunes, iChat, iCal, iPhoto, and iMovie installed.
I read my post three times trying to see how you could get the idea that I said Fraser was required to pay a license fee. I didn't say it, or even imply it. I did say, "he is essentially a clone maker," which is true. His product will run a Mac OS and Mac software. I also said, "who does not even pay Apple a license fee." This is also true, pointing out that Apple gets even less from him than the clone makers of by gone days.
I don't think Apple has to take him to court, but will simply cut off his supply of Apple built motherboards. I think the only way he can make this work is to salvage motherboards from old Macs, and thereby be a computer rebuilder. This would be a small and very limited operation.
Still, if he is building this iBox with newly manufactured motherboards, he is essentially a clone maker who does not even pay Apple a license fee.
The way I interpreted this sentence is that he's making Mac-compatible products but not paying Apple a license fee... he hasn't even started making them yet I don't think, but the way I read it makes it sound like he's not paying a license fee even though he should be paying one. My apologies if that's not what you meant.
. . . the way I read it makes it sound like he's not paying a license fee even though he should be paying one. My apologies if that's not what you meant.
Thank you for your kind reply. Yes, I see how it could come across that way. I was trying to say, by avoiding the license fee, he provides Apple even less benefit than a conventional clone maker. I could have been more clear. This type of thing does reinforce my belief that clarity is really difficult.
First Law of Written Communication: If there is a way to misread something, people will misread it.
Second Law of Written Communication: No matter how hard you try to make something clear, there will always be a way to misread it.
There are lots of G4 motherboards on the open\\gray market
Because Apple is driving so many resellers out of business these days when a mac dealer goes under and is liquidated lots of apple hardware and service parts are all of the sudden out of their jurisdiction and available to whoever the receiver sells them to.
This has caused some controversies all over the world, a few years ago back when the original iMac DV's were out a major Canadian dealer went out of business and all of the sudden iMac DV's were being sold across Canada for below Apples dealer cost. I can't remember the name of the dealer, it was ran by the same people who ran futureshop before it was taken over by Best Buy.
In Europe a major distributor went bust, and all of the sudden discount chains in England and France had iMac's and Powerbooks for sale - again, below dealer cost. Apple tried to stop Tesco from selling them - Tesco told them to goto hell... British mac dealers went ape!
It happens here in the US on a scale that would flood the market, but it does happen pretty frequently.
Most major Apple Specialists will keep parts for popular systems on hand in substantial quantities because Apple can be insanely slow to ship service parts. When they go under all their stock piled parts go on the open market.
Some other tech companies have tried to legally enforce restrictions on who can sell their equipment, but with the exceptions of some cases where Apple can establish themselves as a creditor, it is usually impossible to prevent their stuff from going on the gray market.
There are ofcourse also the asian contract manufacturers who are less than 'diligent' about destroying boards from cancled orders. They can also end up on the gray market. But that is an entire avenue all together and they rarely show up in the west.
There are lots of G4 motherboards on the open\\gray market . .
Your information changes the prospects for this iBox operation. They may have a pretty good supply of such boards already lined up. Still, it has built in limits on how many they can sell. Get 'em while they're hot, as the saying goes.
Here is something I copied from another forum. I hope John Fraser does not mind the reprint.
Quote:
Originally posted by John Fraser on Think Secret
Hey guys, John Fraser co-creator of iBox. Just letting you know that you can preorder our tower version in about 2 weeks.
There are lots of G4 motherboards on the open\\gray market
Because Apple is driving so many resellers out of business these days when a mac dealer goes under and is liquidated lots of apple hardware and service parts are all of the sudden out of their jurisdiction and available to whoever the receiver sells them to.
This has caused some controversies all over the world, a few years ago back when the original iMac DV's were out a major Canadian dealer went out of business and all of the sudden iMac DV's were being sold across Canada for below Apples dealer cost. I can't remember the name of the dealer, it was ran by the same people who ran futureshop before it was taken over by Best Buy.
In Europe a major distributor went bust, and all of the sudden discount chains in England and France had iMac's and Powerbooks for sale - again, below dealer cost. Apple tried to stop Tesco from selling them - Tesco told them to goto hell... British mac dealers went ape!
It happens here in the US on a scale that would flood the market, but it does happen pretty frequently.
Most major Apple Specialists will keep parts for popular systems on hand in substantial quantities because Apple can be insanely slow to ship service parts. When they go under all their stock piled parts go on the open market.
Some other tech companies have tried to legally enforce restrictions on who can sell their equipment, but with the exceptions of some cases where Apple can establish themselves as a creditor, it is usually impossible to prevent their stuff from going on the gray market.
There are ofcourse also the asian contract manufacturers who are less than 'diligent' about destroying boards from cancled orders. They can also end up on the gray market. But that is an entire avenue all together and they rarely show up in the west.
The problem is that this guy probably does not have an international distribution network to scour the earth for grey market motherboards and ship them back to Minnesota.
One possibility would be to ship the iBox without a motherboard and allow users to install their own old Power Mac motherboard. sort of like the iRack: http://www.marathoncomputer.com/irac.html
Or force you to buy a copy of OS X when you buy an iBox so you don't simply use an old license.
Apple could also just buy Fraser out at an extremly low price and avoid any legal wrangling / bad publicity (not much of a chance though because then other people would start creating iThings in order to be bought out).
So Apple should buy him out even though they have no intention of using his product or his creativity, just to stop his innovative product from reaching the market and eating into their profit.
There are a lot of differences between Apple and MSFT, but they are both large corporations that have a vested interest in protecting their own IP. That's why no one will be surprised if they do something.
Bottom line is that Apple will act if they believe this will affect *their* bottom line, or impact the public image of the Mac in a negative fashion.
Apple has such a small market share that they have to protect their business. With Microsoft, they act because many other small companies may make better, more innovative products.
If they don't, I can't advise buying anything from him. I tried to buy a used 7500 from him on eBay last fall. After two months of delays and lack of contact via e-mail or the phone I opened a fraud complaint with eBay. Suddenly he was available and replying quite rapidly. He blamed all the problems on his shipper and a computer arrived shortly after. I foolishly posted feedback after verifying that it booted and ran. A while later I noticed that it was the wrong computer. The memory was half what was advertised, and the HD was 1/4. I thankfully had not closed my fraud complaint and managed to get him to agree to a refund in return for sending the computer back. I did so, but guess what, no cash. The money never showed, the complaint expired, and he's vanished once again behind a non-descript generic answering machine voice and I'm out $200 bucks and one upgraded 7500.
It seems obvious to me that his iBox is not a massive attempt at fraud, but if there's anything wrong with it, you can expect a Franesque adventure of no support, only without the happy ending.
You "LOCK" My discussion of the IBOX as having been done to death, but here it is running under a different banner! You may think it OK to clamp an message block on my innocent post, but that shows you to be chauvanistic& dictatorial.
Not EVERYONE has had the opportunity to read & hear about that Ibox Issue ! or to trawl through the back Blogs to see if someone has already posted.
Some of us members have lives to live . So we don't ALL all hover over our key boards every minute of the day.. Get a life..& try not to be so "UN-democratic"
[edit] do you think Apple will kill this and attempt to do something similar? If this bloke can do it then why not Apple.
You "LOCK" My discussion of the IBOX as having been done to death, but here it is running under a different banner! . . .
This is the original iBox discussion thread, having started on April 2nd. I believe new threads on the same topic are customarily locked. It would be less confusing if "iBox" were in the subject.
Hopefully his effort will be recognized and he'll have success. Then Apple tries to shut him down when they realize the potential of the head-less consumer computer. I'd buy an Apple branded one right away. This is probably what Apple needs to counter Dell's cheap bargains. This, combined with the falling prices of eMacs would benefit the company a great deal I think.
This gives me an idea. How easy would it be to buy a 17" imac and convert it into a portable using a pelican case and some screws? The only problem I could see is getting the lcd to fold down in there. Yeah it would be fairly heavy compared to a 17" powerbook but man it would be much cheaper.
Comments
On the other hand, Apple controls both hardware and software. They aren't breaking the law. From their website: " Our designers and engineers agonize over every millimeter of every new Macintosh model, and every pixel of the user interface."
This is what makes the Mac so stylish and reliable! And Apple doesn't want someone subverting that with their $200 POS beige boxes. If someone purchases the 'iBox' and has a lot of problems with it under Mac OS X, then it reflects poorly on Apple.
They are control freaks because they see what can happen when you relinquish control (Windows and especially Linux). Muddled software UI, cheap, malfunctioning hardware, lack of any kind of underlying focus in design.
So...when they shut this guy down, don't go crying "Apple is Microsoft!" Microsoft illegally used/uses its monopoly in the operating system market to force its way into other markets (For example, they sabotaged Windows NT so that it would crash Netscape Directory Server, so people would switch to Exchange).
Apple is making sure that the Mac doesn't ever get associated with ugly, cheap-ass, cobbled-together hardware. And I can't blame them for that.
Even if Apple were silly enough to have no contractual control over the disposition of spare parts, you can bet that such a contract will soon be in place. So the most Fraser could build is from existing inventory of spare parts, even in such a scenario.
Now, if Fraser gets his motherboards by salvaging them from obsolete Macs, he would likely be within his rights to do so, and I doubt Apple would stop him. He would be a computer rebuilder, and not a manufacturer of new products.
He doesn't have to pay licensing fees!
He's not selling them with a Mac OS installed or on CDs. You provide your own. From somewhere else. Licensing fees apply to when he's selling the OS along with the computer. He has to pay Apple for the OS so he can sell it. If he's not buying anything from Apple, then he doesn't have to pay them anything. See how that works? At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it works. If somehow he has to pay Apple to buid a Mac-compatible computer that doesn't include the Mac OS, then tell me. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to. In fact, maybe he could even work with Yellow Dog Linux to include YDL 3.0 on these boxes.
I do think he should change the name from "iBox" to something else, though. Not only is putting a lowercase i in front of a word a very Apple-esque thing which will provide ammo for Apple's case against him, but also it's just dumb sounding. If I hear any more iSomething's I think I'm going to puke. It's bad enough that I own an iBook with iTunes, iChat, iCal, iPhoto, and iMovie installed.
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
*bangs head on wall*
He doesn't have to pay licensing fees!
I read my post three times trying to see how you could get the idea that I said Fraser was required to pay a license fee. I didn't say it, or even imply it. I did say, "he is essentially a clone maker," which is true. His product will run a Mac OS and Mac software. I also said, "who does not even pay Apple a license fee." This is also true, pointing out that Apple gets even less from him than the clone makers of by gone days.
I don't think Apple has to take him to court, but will simply cut off his supply of Apple built motherboards. I think the only way he can make this work is to salvage motherboards from old Macs, and thereby be a computer rebuilder. This would be a small and very limited operation.
Originally posted by snoopy
Still, if he is building this iBox with newly manufactured motherboards, he is essentially a clone maker who does not even pay Apple a license fee.
The way I interpreted this sentence is that he's making Mac-compatible products but not paying Apple a license fee... he hasn't even started making them yet I don't think, but the way I read it makes it sound like he's not paying a license fee even though he should be paying one. My apologies if that's not what you meant.
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
. . . the way I read it makes it sound like he's not paying a license fee even though he should be paying one. My apologies if that's not what you meant.
Thank you for your kind reply. Yes, I see how it could come across that way. I was trying to say, by avoiding the license fee, he provides Apple even less benefit than a conventional clone maker. I could have been more clear. This type of thing does reinforce my belief that clarity is really difficult.
First Law of Written Communication: If there is a way to misread something, people will misread it.
Second Law of Written Communication: No matter how hard you try to make something clear, there will always be a way to misread it.
Because Apple is driving so many resellers out of business these days when a mac dealer goes under and is liquidated lots of apple hardware and service parts are all of the sudden out of their jurisdiction and available to whoever the receiver sells them to.
This has caused some controversies all over the world, a few years ago back when the original iMac DV's were out a major Canadian dealer went out of business and all of the sudden iMac DV's were being sold across Canada for below Apples dealer cost. I can't remember the name of the dealer, it was ran by the same people who ran futureshop before it was taken over by Best Buy.
In Europe a major distributor went bust, and all of the sudden discount chains in England and France had iMac's and Powerbooks for sale - again, below dealer cost. Apple tried to stop Tesco from selling them - Tesco told them to goto hell... British mac dealers went ape!
It happens here in the US on a scale that would flood the market, but it does happen pretty frequently.
Most major Apple Specialists will keep parts for popular systems on hand in substantial quantities because Apple can be insanely slow to ship service parts. When they go under all their stock piled parts go on the open market.
Some other tech companies have tried to legally enforce restrictions on who can sell their equipment, but with the exceptions of some cases where Apple can establish themselves as a creditor, it is usually impossible to prevent their stuff from going on the gray market.
There are ofcourse also the asian contract manufacturers who are less than 'diligent' about destroying boards from cancled orders. They can also end up on the gray market. But that is an entire avenue all together and they rarely show up in the west.
Originally posted by Stagflation Steve
There are lots of G4 motherboards on the open\\gray market . .
Your information changes the prospects for this iBox operation. They may have a pretty good supply of such boards already lined up. Still, it has built in limits on how many they can sell. Get 'em while they're hot, as the saying goes.
Here is something I copied from another forum. I hope John Fraser does not mind the reprint.
Originally posted by John Fraser on Think Secret
Hey guys, John Fraser co-creator of iBox. Just letting you know that you can preorder our tower version in about 2 weeks.
http://www.2khappyware.com/
BTW the site will be changing soon
Originally posted by Stagflation Steve
There are lots of G4 motherboards on the open\\gray market
Because Apple is driving so many resellers out of business these days when a mac dealer goes under and is liquidated lots of apple hardware and service parts are all of the sudden out of their jurisdiction and available to whoever the receiver sells them to.
This has caused some controversies all over the world, a few years ago back when the original iMac DV's were out a major Canadian dealer went out of business and all of the sudden iMac DV's were being sold across Canada for below Apples dealer cost. I can't remember the name of the dealer, it was ran by the same people who ran futureshop before it was taken over by Best Buy.
In Europe a major distributor went bust, and all of the sudden discount chains in England and France had iMac's and Powerbooks for sale - again, below dealer cost. Apple tried to stop Tesco from selling them - Tesco told them to goto hell... British mac dealers went ape!
It happens here in the US on a scale that would flood the market, but it does happen pretty frequently.
Most major Apple Specialists will keep parts for popular systems on hand in substantial quantities because Apple can be insanely slow to ship service parts. When they go under all their stock piled parts go on the open market.
Some other tech companies have tried to legally enforce restrictions on who can sell their equipment, but with the exceptions of some cases where Apple can establish themselves as a creditor, it is usually impossible to prevent their stuff from going on the gray market.
There are ofcourse also the asian contract manufacturers who are less than 'diligent' about destroying boards from cancled orders. They can also end up on the gray market. But that is an entire avenue all together and they rarely show up in the west.
The problem is that this guy probably does not have an international distribution network to scour the earth for grey market motherboards and ship them back to Minnesota.
One possibility would be to ship the iBox without a motherboard and allow users to install their own old Power Mac motherboard. sort of like the iRack: http://www.marathoncomputer.com/irac.html
Or force you to buy a copy of OS X when you buy an iBox so you don't simply use an old license.
Apple could also just buy Fraser out at an extremly low price and avoid any legal wrangling / bad publicity (not much of a chance though because then other people would start creating iThings in order to be bought out).
And why don't we like Microsoft again?
Socrates
Bottom line is that Apple will act if they believe this will affect *their* bottom line, or impact the public image of the Mac in a negative fashion.
If they don't, I can't advise buying anything from him. I tried to buy a used 7500 from him on eBay last fall. After two months of delays and lack of contact via e-mail or the phone I opened a fraud complaint with eBay. Suddenly he was available and replying quite rapidly. He blamed all the problems on his shipper and a computer arrived shortly after. I foolishly posted feedback after verifying that it booted and ran. A while later I noticed that it was the wrong computer. The memory was half what was advertised, and the HD was 1/4. I thankfully had not closed my fraud complaint and managed to get him to agree to a refund in return for sending the computer back. I did so, but guess what, no cash. The money never showed, the complaint expired, and he's vanished once again behind a non-descript generic answering machine voice and I'm out $200 bucks and one upgraded 7500.
It seems obvious to me that his iBox is not a massive attempt at fraud, but if there's anything wrong with it, you can expect a Franesque adventure of no support, only without the happy ending.
You "LOCK" My discussion of the IBOX as having been done to death, but here it is running under a different banner! You may think it OK to clamp an message block on my innocent post, but that shows you to be chauvanistic& dictatorial.
Not EVERYONE has had the opportunity to read & hear about that Ibox Issue ! or to trawl through the back Blogs to see if someone has already posted.
Some of us members have lives to live . So we don't ALL all hover over our key boards every minute of the day.. Get a life..& try not to be so "UN-democratic"
[edit] do you think Apple will kill this and attempt to do something similar? If this bloke can do it then why not Apple.
Originally posted by aquafire
Wake UP Fran441.
You "LOCK" My discussion of the IBOX as having been done to death, but here it is running under a different banner! . . .
This is the original iBox discussion thread, having started on April 2nd. I believe new threads on the same topic are customarily locked. It would be less confusing if "iBox" were in the subject.
Originally posted by Guartho
It seems obvious to me that his iBox is not a massive attempt at fraud
yes. I agree, it's a hoax, not fraud.