If you are referring to the coalition down in Iraq please tell me who is involved down there? I know of only three countries, US GB and Denmark (aka the elephant, the mouse and the flee).
Oh yeah and countries like the philiphines that contributes by giving "the coalition" access to their airspace. Always good to know that if any of our planes can´t find its way it won´t get shot down if it ends up on the other side of the planet
The minute I start equating "how many people are on board" with "doing what's right", then I'm f***ed. Considering the background, beliefs, attitudes, etc. of many in the "international community" (represented by various bureaucrats and outright low-rent thugs from the U.N.), I feel quite comfortable with the people who are on our side on this.
It's quality over quantity.
I'd rather have one Great Britain and Australia than 100 Frances, Belgiums, Germanys, who've done nothing but try and derail this from the get-go.
I ask again: a lot of you like to throw around the whole "greed" and "money" aspect of this war, in regards to Cheney/Halliburton and the stupid idiot phrase "Bush's oil war", but you don't apply that same jaded, skeptical eye to France or Germany and THEIR money/business-driven reasons for doing what they're doing?
Not fair.
The ONLY people who've conducted themselves in a blatant "oil/money/greed/business" manner have been the two big holdouts.
But that doesn't seem to bother or even occur to some of you.
The best you can do is figure out how many times to say "Cheney" or "Halliburton" in a post or trot out another shaky link you read about in Mother Jones last month.
Underneath our scandinavian humanitarian softness we kick ass. Deep inside we are still vikings.
If you are referring to the coalition down in Iraq please tell me who is involved down there? I know of only three countries, US GB and Denmark (aka the elephant, the mouse and the flee).
Oh yeah and countries like the philiphines that contributes by giving "the coalition" access to their airspace. Always good to know that if any of our planes can´t find its way it won´t get shot down if it ends up on the other side of the planet
AUSTRAILIA is another, they have some special ops guys in....
I ask again: a lot of you like to throw around the whole "greed" and "money" aspect of this war, in regards to Cheney/Halliburton and the stupid idiot phrase "Bush's oil war", but you don't apply that same jaded, skeptical eye to France or Germany and THEIR money/business-driven reasons for doing what they're doing?
Not fair.
The ONLY people who've conducted themselves in a blatant "oil/money/greed/business" manner have been the two big holdouts.
But that doesn't seem to bother or even occur to some of you.
The best you can do is figure out how many times to say "Cheney" or "Halliburton" in a post or trot out another shaky link you read about in Mother Jones last month.
I agree with you 100%, what I also dislike is if you notice, how many anti war threads are there, now how many are there not against it? same with protestors.. notice how it is the anti-war, so called peaceful people that are usually the ones getting in everyones faces. And also always the ones that are into conspiricay theories??
I ask again: a lot of you like to throw around the whole "greed" and "money" aspect of this war, in regards to Cheney/Halliburton and the stupid idiot phrase "Bush's oil war", but you don't apply that same jaded, skeptical eye to France or Germany and THEIR money/business-driven reasons for doing what they're doing?
I don't think that's accurate. A lot of people do see how France and Russia have economic ties to Iraq. There are two problems though.
One, if they are doing the right thing for the wrong reason, I still have to support what I believe is the right thing to do. I will gladly criticize Russia's links to Iraq when they're as clear as Halliburton's.
Two, if someone doesn't live in German, France or Russia, they have less of a reason to criticize or care. If someone is from the United States, the war is being done in their name and on their behalf. A U.S. citizen should be far more critical of their own country because it is the one over which they have direct control.
Exactly. Looks what happens during a typical recent "peace" protest: nasty, rude behavior, obnoxious tactics like laying down and block streets, chanting really hateful, mean-spirited lame-ass rhymes, comparing Bush with Hitler, terrorism, etc.
When people gather for a simple "pro troops" rally (as I recently did in a my town), there's nothing but positive goodwill and a TRUE sense of caring and unity. No anger, no bitterness, no destoying property or antagonizing the police.
HUGE difference. I've been present at both in recent weeks, so I can comment on it.
[i was at the peace rally just to observe and take funny pictures of people really showing their true colors...cheaper, and more entertaining, than a ballgame or movie]
I don't think that's accurate. A lot of people do see how France and Russia have economic ties to Iraq.
bunge, I've not seen one anti-war (aka anti-Bush) person here at AI (or on the various political radio/TV shows over the past few weeks) ding France or Germany or Russia (or whoever it ultimately is) at all. They never even bring it up because it would impede their Cheney/Halliburton/Bush/oil tirade.
What I said is VERY accurate and if "a lot of people do see how France and Russia have economic ties to Iraq", they sure are sitting on their feelings over it.
I heard the anti-war protesters are baby-killers and satan worshipers too.
Not at all, Shawn. Nobody (certainly not me) has ever said that or implied it. Don't go making a silly, far-out zinger like that just to deflect the truth/facts in my post.
I saw - with my own eyes - about 18 or 20 people link arms and go lie down across Broad Street and back up traffic for blocks. I saw the signs calling Bush "child killer" and "rapist" and the ever-popular "Bush with Hitler moustache" signs.
Not a babykiller or Satan worshipper in the bunch, I'm sure.
Merely idiots, drama queens/kings and liars. Which, in some ways, might actually be worse.
Of course not. But the two points I made are valid.
One, if someone benefits from the correct action that's not a 'sin' in and of itself. So if fuel cell makers benefit when the legal MPG goes up to 50, well that's just their luck. Not warring might help France and Russia, but it was still the right choice at that time.
Two, people should complain about their home first. Powerdoc has ranted about France. Good. I don't know of any Russians or Germans here to rant about their respective countries. Once you're wearing that halo, you can cast the first stone. Until then, you've got to clean up your own act first.
Merely idiots, drama queens/kings and liars. Which, in some ways, might actually be worse.
Yeah, i always wonder, they say they don't hate the US they love it, ok, how about the ones that burn flags?? they say "Oh, I am just showing my disapproval?", no you can do that just by saying you disapprove, but flag burning? Or even burning a dummy of the president.. again, that is not just showing disapproval, that is showing hatred, and hatred is NOT peaceful at all. (reminds me of the big peace luving 'hippy' in the 70's who killed his girlfriend, stuffered her in a trunk and fled to FRANCE...
...people should complain about their home first. Powerdoc has ranted about France. Good. I don't know of any Russians or Germans here to rant about their respective countries. Once you're wearing that halo, you can cast the first stone. Until then, you've got to clean up your own act first.
Where, exactly, is that written?
In any case, where have you been for the past year or so? I've made a small career "complaining about my home first", bunge. Just because maybe I'm not complaining about the people and policies YOU would, you don't count that?
My country isn't perfect (as long as Jesse Jackson is looked to as a credible, noble and unchallenged "leader" and the end-all/be-all spokesman for all blacks and all that is black, my work here isn't finished), but I've never seen it refuse to step up, time and time again. The U.S. has pretty much made a second career out of saving the world, hasn't it? Who else would've ever stepped in and done the hard work and heavy lifting we've done over the years? Not only that, but the amazing thing is that once we thoroughly beat the living shit out of a country, we turn around and help them rebuild and - lo and behold - they becomes friends and allies to us over the years.
Cool, huh?
Just because I believe (and know) that we're on the right side of this particular issue doesn't mean that I'm a blind-to-the-bad-stuff, flag-waving zealot.
But I'll ding on France and others WAY more because - let's face it - they've so richly asked for it lately.
The way I see it, if anything, I'm simply balancing out the shrill chorus of the anti-Bush, self-loathing types out there who've been given so much face-time and attention on TV lately.
If I have to choose between bashing the U.S. or France, guess who's going to lose that one?
After the war, I'll get back to Jackson, pop culture, frivolous lawsuits, idiot celebrities, etc. Don't worry.
Powerdoc's complaints? I'm sure you can search for them now...
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
In any case, where have you been for the past year or so? I've made a small career "complaining about my home first", bunge. Just because maybe I'm not complaining about the people and policies YOU would, you don't count that?
Well, since the context was you asking the anti-war crowd to complain about France and Germany, no your complaints about Jesse Jackson doen't really count here.
My point was just that it does no good for an American to complain about France's economic policies since we don't have any direct or indirect control of those policies. An American does have control over America though, and can make a difference. I think you understood that though.
But bunge, I support this action. So what would I complain/criticize about? You said "complain against your home first..." and I do.
But, like I said, it's just not the things YOU believe or feel. What am I supposed to do? I followed your advice as far as I could take it, but it doesn't apply here.
The things, people, policies, stories, etc. that bother or upset me, I talk about.
This war doesn't.
And it isn't France's "economic policies" I'm annoyed by. It's how they seemed to really go out of their way - above and beyond, if you will - to COMPLETELY derail and gum up this whole thing.
Don't agree with Bush and his choice of action? Fine. But it went beyond that. Most Americans saw lots of gall, hypocrisy and arrogance in how they've conducted themselves through this.
And yeah, yeah, yeah...it's not lost on me that some other Americans (granted, a small minority) saw the gall, hypocrisy and arrogance exhibited by America. Spare me that little comeback...I beat you to it.
But what do you expect...that's the usual crowd of professional protesters and "everything America does is wrong" brigade.
I'm not an economist, nor am I French. So I'm not coming at this as someone mad at how they did or did not manage some sort of financial dealings.
But bunge, I support this action. So what would I complain/criticize about? You said "complain against your home first..." and I do.
You were asking for those people that are criticizing the U.S. to criticize other countries as well. What I was arguing is that those people have to reason to criticize France if they're Americans. I wasn't saying you should complain about America, but if you're worried about Jesse Jackson, don't complain to Poland about it. They can't help you.
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
But, like I said, it's just not the things YOU believe or feel. What am I supposed to do? I followed your advice as far as I could take it, but it doesn't apply here.
The things, people, policies, stories, etc. that bother or upset me, I talk about.
This war doesn't.
That's fine. You were complaining about Americans criticizing America instead of France. I'm saying Americans have no reason to criticize France.
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
Most Americans saw lots of gall, hypocrisy and arrogance in how they've conducted themselves through this.
Most Americans? The minute I start equating "how many people are on board" with "doing what's right", then I'm f***ed.
Quote:
Originally posted by pscates
But what do you expect...that's the usual crowd of professional protesters and "everything America does is wrong" brigade.
Well that's obviously not true. You can generalize all you want, but it just weakens, waters down, your argument. Not everyone is in the "everything America does is wrong" booster club. Pretending that any and all opposition to the war belongs in that group is called a straw-man argument.
I think those of you that see people as "everything America does is wrong" type people are missing the key element in that crowd. One, they care about America and two they care about improving it. They also care when it does something wrong.
We could criticize Iraq all day here. No one is defending them because there's no reason. But criticizing them doesn't get us anywhere. It would never amount to anything. Let's try it: Iraq sux. OK, that was fun.
But when those of us that are from the United States criticize the U.S., it can be constructive. We can take what we discuss and in turn use it for our own good. There is nothing we can say about the behind the scenes deals between France, Germany, China, Russia and Iraq that would be potentially helpful. There is no constructive path.
Most Americans? The minute I start equating "how many people are on board" with "doing what's right", then I'm f***ed.
Yes, that's my little quote from earlier today. Good pull!
However, most Americans agree with me, so it's not like I'm on the fence and looking to any sort of "what's the majority doing?" vibe as a barometer.
I'm already there.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. But "how many people are on board" isn't - and shouldn't be - the sole determining factor in anything.
I can't help it if most people see this my way.
I suspect that the many Americans who are "on board", regarding this action in Iraq, don't have to be told what's what or look to polls or commentators to know the difference between good/bad, right/wrong, compliance/non-compliance, just cause/unjust actions, etc.
We're the majority, but we're busy working and minding our Ps & Qs, so we don't really have time to go stand out in the street and block traffic and hang shit from bridges and generally be a pain in the ass to society at large.
We gather occasionally for small, quiet and peaceful shows of support, and show our thanks and gratitude to those that earn it.
Comments
Originally posted by Scott
How much you want to bet that Saddam's lawyer will get him off on a technicality.
'Course if he's dead that's not an issue.
Originally posted by Scott
Or maybe anti-semetic public pressure in France and Germany (et al) will force them to pressure the court to go easy on Saddam.
At least your bias doesn't show.
Originally posted by bunge
At least your bias doesn't show.
And neither does yours.
Or somesuch.
Originally posted by Anders the White
If you are referring to the coalition down in Iraq please tell me who is involved down there? I know of only three countries, US GB and Denmark (aka the elephant, the mouse and the flee).
Oh yeah and countries like the philiphines that contributes by giving "the coalition" access to their airspace. Always good to know that if any of our planes can´t find its way it won´t get shot down if it ends up on the other side of the planet
The minute I start equating "how many people are on board" with "doing what's right", then I'm f***ed. Considering the background, beliefs, attitudes, etc. of many in the "international community" (represented by various bureaucrats and outright low-rent thugs from the U.N.), I feel quite comfortable with the people who are on our side on this.
It's quality over quantity.
I'd rather have one Great Britain and Australia than 100 Frances, Belgiums, Germanys, who've done nothing but try and derail this from the get-go.
I ask again: a lot of you like to throw around the whole "greed" and "money" aspect of this war, in regards to Cheney/Halliburton and the stupid idiot phrase "Bush's oil war", but you don't apply that same jaded, skeptical eye to France or Germany and THEIR money/business-driven reasons for doing what they're doing?
Not fair.
The ONLY people who've conducted themselves in a blatant "oil/money/greed/business" manner have been the two big holdouts.
But that doesn't seem to bother or even occur to some of you.
The best you can do is figure out how many times to say "Cheney" or "Halliburton" in a post or trot out another shaky link you read about in Mother Jones last month.
Originally posted by Anders the White
Underneath our scandinavian humanitarian softness we kick ass. Deep inside we are still vikings.
If you are referring to the coalition down in Iraq please tell me who is involved down there? I know of only three countries, US GB and Denmark (aka the elephant, the mouse and the flee).
Oh yeah and countries like the philiphines that contributes by giving "the coalition" access to their airspace. Always good to know that if any of our planes can´t find its way it won´t get shot down if it ends up on the other side of the planet
AUSTRAILIA is another, they have some special ops guys in....
Originally posted by pscates
I ask again: a lot of you like to throw around the whole "greed" and "money" aspect of this war, in regards to Cheney/Halliburton and the stupid idiot phrase "Bush's oil war", but you don't apply that same jaded, skeptical eye to France or Germany and THEIR money/business-driven reasons for doing what they're doing?
Not fair.
The ONLY people who've conducted themselves in a blatant "oil/money/greed/business" manner have been the two big holdouts.
But that doesn't seem to bother or even occur to some of you.
The best you can do is figure out how many times to say "Cheney" or "Halliburton" in a post or trot out another shaky link you read about in Mother Jones last month.
I agree with you 100%, what I also dislike is if you notice, how many anti war threads are there, now how many are there not against it? same with protestors.. notice how it is the anti-war, so called peaceful people that are usually the ones getting in everyones faces. And also always the ones that are into conspiricay theories??
Originally posted by pscates
I ask again: a lot of you like to throw around the whole "greed" and "money" aspect of this war, in regards to Cheney/Halliburton and the stupid idiot phrase "Bush's oil war", but you don't apply that same jaded, skeptical eye to France or Germany and THEIR money/business-driven reasons for doing what they're doing?
I don't think that's accurate. A lot of people do see how France and Russia have economic ties to Iraq. There are two problems though.
One, if they are doing the right thing for the wrong reason, I still have to support what I believe is the right thing to do. I will gladly criticize Russia's links to Iraq when they're as clear as Halliburton's.
Two, if someone doesn't live in German, France or Russia, they have less of a reason to criticize or care. If someone is from the United States, the war is being done in their name and on their behalf. A U.S. citizen should be far more critical of their own country because it is the one over which they have direct control.
Common sense I think.
When people gather for a simple "pro troops" rally (as I recently did in a my town), there's nothing but positive goodwill and a TRUE sense of caring and unity. No anger, no bitterness, no destoying property or antagonizing the police.
HUGE difference. I've been present at both in recent weeks, so I can comment on it.
[i was at the peace rally just to observe and take funny pictures of people really showing their true colors...cheaper, and more entertaining, than a ballgame or movie]
Originally posted by bunge
I don't think that's accurate. A lot of people do see how France and Russia have economic ties to Iraq.
bunge, I've not seen one anti-war (aka anti-Bush) person here at AI (or on the various political radio/TV shows over the past few weeks) ding France or Germany or Russia (or whoever it ultimately is) at all. They never even bring it up because it would impede their Cheney/Halliburton/Bush/oil tirade.
What I said is VERY accurate and if "a lot of people do see how France and Russia have economic ties to Iraq", they sure are sitting on their feelings over it.
They (France, Russia, etc.) get a pass I suppose?
Originally posted by ShawnPatrickJoyce
I heard the anti-war protesters are baby-killers and satan worshipers too.
Not at all, Shawn. Nobody (certainly not me) has ever said that or implied it. Don't go making a silly, far-out zinger like that just to deflect the truth/facts in my post.
I saw - with my own eyes - about 18 or 20 people link arms and go lie down across Broad Street and back up traffic for blocks. I saw the signs calling Bush "child killer" and "rapist" and the ever-popular "Bush with Hitler moustache" signs.
Not a babykiller or Satan worshipper in the bunch, I'm sure.
Merely idiots, drama queens/kings and liars. Which, in some ways, might actually be worse.
Originally posted by pscates
They (France, Russia, etc.) get a pass I suppose?
Of course not. But the two points I made are valid.
One, if someone benefits from the correct action that's not a 'sin' in and of itself. So if fuel cell makers benefit when the legal MPG goes up to 50, well that's just their luck. Not warring might help France and Russia, but it was still the right choice at that time.
Two, people should complain about their home first. Powerdoc has ranted about France. Good. I don't know of any Russians or Germans here to rant about their respective countries. Once you're wearing that halo, you can cast the first stone. Until then, you've got to clean up your own act first.
Originally posted by pscates
Merely idiots, drama queens/kings and liars. Which, in some ways, might actually be worse.
Yeah, i always wonder, they say they don't hate the US they love it, ok, how about the ones that burn flags?? they say "Oh, I am just showing my disapproval?", no you can do that just by saying you disapprove, but flag burning? Or even burning a dummy of the president.. again, that is not just showing disapproval, that is showing hatred, and hatred is NOT peaceful at all. (reminds me of the big peace luving 'hippy' in the 70's who killed his girlfriend, stuffered her in a trunk and fled to FRANCE...
Originally posted by bunge
...people should complain about their home first. Powerdoc has ranted about France. Good. I don't know of any Russians or Germans here to rant about their respective countries. Once you're wearing that halo, you can cast the first stone. Until then, you've got to clean up your own act first.
Where, exactly, is that written?
In any case, where have you been for the past year or so? I've made a small career "complaining about my home first", bunge. Just because maybe I'm not complaining about the people and policies YOU would, you don't count that?
My country isn't perfect (as long as Jesse Jackson is looked to as a credible, noble and unchallenged "leader" and the end-all/be-all spokesman for all blacks and all that is black, my work here isn't finished), but I've never seen it refuse to step up, time and time again. The U.S. has pretty much made a second career out of saving the world, hasn't it? Who else would've ever stepped in and done the hard work and heavy lifting we've done over the years? Not only that, but the amazing thing is that once we thoroughly beat the living shit out of a country, we turn around and help them rebuild and - lo and behold - they becomes friends and allies to us over the years.
Cool, huh?
Just because I believe (and know) that we're on the right side of this particular issue doesn't mean that I'm a blind-to-the-bad-stuff, flag-waving zealot.
But I'll ding on France and others WAY more because - let's face it - they've so richly asked for it lately.
The way I see it, if anything, I'm simply balancing out the shrill chorus of the anti-Bush, self-loathing types out there who've been given so much face-time and attention on TV lately.
If I have to choose between bashing the U.S. or France, guess who's going to lose that one?
After the war, I'll get back to Jackson, pop culture, frivolous lawsuits, idiot celebrities, etc. Don't worry.
Originally posted by pscates
Where, exactly, is that written?
Powerdoc's complaints? I'm sure you can search for them now...
Originally posted by pscates
In any case, where have you been for the past year or so? I've made a small career "complaining about my home first", bunge. Just because maybe I'm not complaining about the people and policies YOU would, you don't count that?
Well, since the context was you asking the anti-war crowd to complain about France and Germany, no your complaints about Jesse Jackson doen't really count here.
My point was just that it does no good for an American to complain about France's economic policies since we don't have any direct or indirect control of those policies. An American does have control over America though, and can make a difference. I think you understood that though.
But, like I said, it's just not the things YOU believe or feel. What am I supposed to do? I followed your advice as far as I could take it, but it doesn't apply here.
The things, people, policies, stories, etc. that bother or upset me, I talk about.
This war doesn't.
And it isn't France's "economic policies" I'm annoyed by. It's how they seemed to really go out of their way - above and beyond, if you will - to COMPLETELY derail and gum up this whole thing.
Don't agree with Bush and his choice of action? Fine. But it went beyond that. Most Americans saw lots of gall, hypocrisy and arrogance in how they've conducted themselves through this.
And yeah, yeah, yeah...it's not lost on me that some other Americans (granted, a small minority) saw the gall, hypocrisy and arrogance exhibited by America. Spare me that little comeback...I beat you to it.
But what do you expect...that's the usual crowd of professional protesters and "everything America does is wrong" brigade.
I'm not an economist, nor am I French. So I'm not coming at this as someone mad at how they did or did not manage some sort of financial dealings.
Originally posted by pscates
But bunge, I support this action. So what would I complain/criticize about? You said "complain against your home first..." and I do.
You were asking for those people that are criticizing the U.S. to criticize other countries as well. What I was arguing is that those people have to reason to criticize France if they're Americans. I wasn't saying you should complain about America, but if you're worried about Jesse Jackson, don't complain to Poland about it. They can't help you.
Originally posted by pscates
But, like I said, it's just not the things YOU believe or feel. What am I supposed to do? I followed your advice as far as I could take it, but it doesn't apply here.
The things, people, policies, stories, etc. that bother or upset me, I talk about.
This war doesn't.
That's fine. You were complaining about Americans criticizing America instead of France. I'm saying Americans have no reason to criticize France.
Originally posted by pscates
Most Americans saw lots of gall, hypocrisy and arrogance in how they've conducted themselves through this.
Most Americans? The minute I start equating "how many people are on board" with "doing what's right", then I'm f***ed.
Originally posted by pscates
But what do you expect...that's the usual crowd of professional protesters and "everything America does is wrong" brigade.
Well that's obviously not true. You can generalize all you want, but it just weakens, waters down, your argument. Not everyone is in the "everything America does is wrong" booster club. Pretending that any and all opposition to the war belongs in that group is called a straw-man argument.
I think those of you that see people as "everything America does is wrong" type people are missing the key element in that crowd. One, they care about America and two they care about improving it. They also care when it does something wrong.
We could criticize Iraq all day here. No one is defending them because there's no reason. But criticizing them doesn't get us anywhere. It would never amount to anything. Let's try it: Iraq sux. OK, that was fun.
But when those of us that are from the United States criticize the U.S., it can be constructive. We can take what we discuss and in turn use it for our own good. There is nothing we can say about the behind the scenes deals between France, Germany, China, Russia and Iraq that would be potentially helpful. There is no constructive path.
Originally posted by bunge
Most Americans? The minute I start equating "how many people are on board" with "doing what's right", then I'm f***ed.
Yes, that's my little quote from earlier today. Good pull!
However, most Americans agree with me, so it's not like I'm on the fence and looking to any sort of "what's the majority doing?" vibe as a barometer.
I'm already there.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. But "how many people are on board" isn't - and shouldn't be - the sole determining factor in anything.
I can't help it if most people see this my way.
I suspect that the many Americans who are "on board", regarding this action in Iraq, don't have to be told what's what or look to polls or commentators to know the difference between good/bad, right/wrong, compliance/non-compliance, just cause/unjust actions, etc.
We're the majority, but we're busy working and minding our Ps & Qs, so we don't really have time to go stand out in the street and block traffic and hang shit from bridges and generally be a pain in the ass to society at large.
We gather occasionally for small, quiet and peaceful shows of support, and show our thanks and gratitude to those that earn it.