Facebook considers telling users enabling tracking keeps app 'free of charge'

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 49
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,383member
    FoodLover said:
    ppietra said:
    FoodLover said:
    ppietra said:
    Did anyone notice how they deceitfully play with words?
    First they say they are tracking some Data - avoiding saying they are tracking people!
    Then they try to seed confusion by saying "how we limit the use of this information if you don't turn on this setting", like if people choose the negative option ("not to track") Facebook will get information.

    Well, I have a Galaxy Phone and no Facebook. So FB cannot track where I am. It can just collect data on the owner.

    But when I am with iPhone users within the same network, all iPhone users are constantly sharing my location with Apple. Apple knows exactly who is in the same location with whom, independent of whether the others have an iPhone or not.

     https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/new-study-raises-fresh-privacy-concerns-about-apple-and-google-mobile-phones/

     Apple not only collects data about handset activity, but also about handsets nearby. When you use WiFi, the WiFi MAC addresses of other devices on the network are sent to Apple.  When the location toggle is enabled on the handset then the precise GPS location is also included. The WiFi MAC address identifies a device on a WiFi network and so, for example, uniquely identifies your home router, cafe hotspot or office network.  That means Apple can potentially track which people you are near to, as well as when and where. That’s very concerning.

    Even Google doesn’t do this. This is scaring. But Apple fans always believe Apple is the good guy. Read the complete study. Apple and Google collect both data, but what Apple does, does nobody else.

    with all due respect but you have no idea of how Apple handles the data it collects, so you saying that Apple can track you is BS based on speculation.
    As for Facebook it is well known that it can track you even if don’t use Facebook, because Facebook is also an Ad network for other applications that you probably use, collecting data from those applications (that is Facebook business)... hey, it is even the owner of other popular apps!

    Apple is not a religion. It is just a company. Stop acting/talking like an Apple Taliban!

    Defensive much?  
    patchythepiratewatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 49
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,334member
    MacPro said:
    FoodLover said:
    ppietra said:
    FoodLover said:
    ppietra said:
    Did anyone notice how they deceitfully play with words?
    First they say they are tracking some Data - avoiding saying they are tracking people!
    Then they try to seed confusion by saying "how we limit the use of this information if you don't turn on this setting", like if people choose the negative option ("not to track") Facebook will get information.

    Well, I have a Galaxy Phone and no Facebook. So FB cannot track where I am. It can just collect data on the owner.

    But when I am with iPhone users within the same network, all iPhone users are constantly sharing my location with Apple. Apple knows exactly who is in the same location with whom, independent of whether the others have an iPhone or not.

     https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/new-study-raises-fresh-privacy-concerns-about-apple-and-google-mobile-phones/

     Apple not only collects data about handset activity, but also about handsets nearby. When you use WiFi, the WiFi MAC addresses of other devices on the network are sent to Apple.  When the location toggle is enabled on the handset then the precise GPS location is also included. The WiFi MAC address identifies a device on a WiFi network and so, for example, uniquely identifies your home router, cafe hotspot or office network.  That means Apple can potentially track which people you are near to, as well as when and where. That’s very concerning.

    Even Google doesn’t do this. This is scaring. But Apple fans always believe Apple is the good guy. Read the complete study. Apple and Google collect both data, but what Apple does, does nobody else.

    with all due respect but you have no idea of how Apple handles the data it collects, so you saying that Apple can track you is BS based on speculation.
    As for Facebook it is well known that it can track you even if don’t use Facebook, because Facebook is also an Ad network for other applications that you probably use, collecting data from those applications (that is Facebook business)... hey, it is even the owner of other popular apps!

    Apple is not a religion. It is just a company. Stop acting/talking like an Apple Taliban!

    Defensive much?  
    Yet another conspiracy theorist throwing around conjecture.  Apple has privacy policies for collected data, but I doubt they've looked into them.  Throwing around conjecture and scare tactics garners more attention than well-researched facts.  And this is the end of mine on the matter.
    patchythepiratewatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 49
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,762member
    auxio said:
    MacPro said:
    FoodLover said:
    ppietra said:
    FoodLover said:
    ppietra said:
    Did anyone notice how they deceitfully play with words?
    First they say they are tracking some Data - avoiding saying they are tracking people!
    Then they try to seed confusion by saying "how we limit the use of this information if you don't turn on this setting", like if people choose the negative option ("not to track") Facebook will get information.

    Well, I have a Galaxy Phone and no Facebook. So FB cannot track where I am. It can just collect data on the owner.

    But when I am with iPhone users within the same network, all iPhone users are constantly sharing my location with Apple. Apple knows exactly who is in the same location with whom, independent of whether the others have an iPhone or not.

     https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/new-study-raises-fresh-privacy-concerns-about-apple-and-google-mobile-phones/

     Apple not only collects data about handset activity, but also about handsets nearby. When you use WiFi, the WiFi MAC addresses of other devices on the network are sent to Apple.  When the location toggle is enabled on the handset then the precise GPS location is also included. The WiFi MAC address identifies a device on a WiFi network and so, for example, uniquely identifies your home router, cafe hotspot or office network.  That means Apple can potentially track which people you are near to, as well as when and where. That’s very concerning.

    Even Google doesn’t do this. This is scaring. But Apple fans always believe Apple is the good guy. Read the complete study. Apple and Google collect both data, but what Apple does, does nobody else.

    with all due respect but you have no idea of how Apple handles the data it collects, so you saying that Apple can track you is BS based on speculation.
    As for Facebook it is well known that it can track you even if don’t use Facebook, because Facebook is also an Ad network for other applications that you probably use, collecting data from those applications (that is Facebook business)... hey, it is even the owner of other popular apps!

    Apple is not a religion. It is just a company. Stop acting/talking like an Apple Taliban!

    Defensive much?  
    Yet another conspiracy theorist throwing around conjecture.  Apple has privacy policies for collected data, but I doubt they've looked into them.  Throwing around conjecture and scare tactics garners more attention than well-researched facts.  And this is the end of mine on the matter.
    It's not without any merit though.  Why exactly do Apple send the MAC addresses of nearby devices back to Apple?  What legitimate purpose does it serve and is it right for Apple to assume that such a purpose should be on by default, given the potential for infringing on the privacy of people who aren't even Apple customers?
  • Reply 44 of 49
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,473member
    FoodLover said:
    ankitpati said:
    FoodLover said:

    But when I am with iPhone users within the same network, all iPhone users are constantly sharing my location with Apple. Apple knows exactly who is in the same location with whom, independent of whether the others have an iPhone or not.

     https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/new-study-raises-fresh-privacy-concerns-about-apple-and-google-mobile-phones/

     Apple not only collects data about handset activity, but also about handsets nearby. When you use WiFi, the WiFi MAC addresses of other devices on the network are sent to Apple.  When the location toggle is enabled on the handset then the precise GPS location is also included. The WiFi MAC address identifies a device on a WiFi network and so, for example, uniquely identifies your home router, cafe hotspot or office network.  That means Apple can potentially track which people you are near to, as well as when and where. That’s very concerning.

    Even Google doesn’t do this. This is scaring. But Apple fans always believe Apple is the good guy. Read the complete study. Apple and Google collect both data, but what Apple does, does nobody else.

    What Apple collects and what data they use could be two separate things. I imagine they aren't concerned about who is nearby but what routers are nearby for location purposes. I mean, you can enable rotating MAC addresses on your phone rendering the "who is nearby" as imperfect. And I believe it has been on by default since iOS 14 meaning at least 50-70% probably have it turned on.
    But then again, I can only go by what they say, I can't say what they actually do.

    Under Android it is not that easy. And normal people don't have a clue about how to do it.

    The problem is this: I have not authorised Apple to collect my data. In many countries, even the police is not allowed to ask telecom companies for a list of people being within a cell site, for instance to find out who was when where. But a company whose services I’m not using is allowed to collect data on me worldwide without my approval?

    As there is no reason for doing this, I simply have to assume that Apple would potentially misuse the data. And also share it with the respective governments worldwide.

    Even every FB user under iOS will have the choice to not being tracked by FB. But I as someone without an iPhone have no choice to opt out from being tracked by Apple. How sick is this?


    Disclaimer: I do not wish to get into the larger argument. Just pointing out a factual inaccuracy.

    Under Android 10 and later, so a fully patched Galaxy S9 or later, MAC randomisation is enabled by default.
    That randomisation you are referring to and which probably works under iOS in a similar way applies only before you get associated with a network.

    Once you are in the network, your phone will use your unique MAC address.

    In order to falsify your real MAC address under Android, you’ll have to root your device. Under iOS: I’m not sure whether you still could jailbreak your iPhone. 

    Umm.  That random MAC address is the address USED to join the network.   Your comment makes no sense about it only being before you join the network.  

    The reason Apple collects MAC addresses is for location services without GPS.   Things like routers don’t usually change location and so they detect where you are, what routers are nearby, and associate your location with those routers.  So later on someone who has no GPS turned on is near that router, Apple’s location services can provide an approximate location to the user. I would really be surprised if Google doesn’t do the same (perhaps through a third party).  
    patchythepiratewatto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 49
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,676member
    This is one of several innovative approaches FaceBook could take to fight Apple. (I'm not on FaceBook's side, but I'm trying to anticipate their response options.)

    I think my cellular provider provides "unlimited data," but after a certain threshold the data is throttled, which is essentially two levels of service. One level of service is for people who play nicely, and the other is for the heavy users who "abuse" the unlimited Internet. (It's not really unlimited Internet if it's throttled, I would suggest.)

    FaceBook could take a lesson from that and, like my cellular company, provide two levels of service. One is for people who "play nicely" by allowing tracking, and the other is for people who don't. One option FaceBook could implement fairly easily is lower latency for people who allow tracking. Another option it has is to require its users to be more carefully vetted if they don't want to allow app tracking (i.e., provide FaceBook with more personal information.) After all, FaceBook knows exactly who you are, even if you don't allow tracking, because you are still logging into their servers with your ID. So FaceBook has the upper hand in this fight.

    I don't think Apple has a leg to stand on if FaceBook puts pressure like this on its users, especially if the lobbying with the user is done entirely outside of iOS.

    So...Facebook will sort of break the app for those who don't submit to tracking?  Gee, what could go wrong? 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 49
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,676member
    ppietra said:
    Did anyone notice how they deceitfully play with words?
    First they say they are tracking some Data - avoiding saying they are tracking people!
    Then they try to seed confusion by saying "how we limit the use of this information if you don't turn on this setting", like if people choose the negative option ("not to track") Facebook will get information.
    I noticed immediately.  They downplay their MASSIVE user surveillance by saying "some data."   Then, there is the part about limiting information.  That doesn't even make sense to me as a tech-savvy person.  So if I refuse ad tracking, they will limit the way they use the information that they aren't allowed connect?  What? 

    The worse is the implicit threat that if enough people don't submit to their will, Facebook may start charging.  They are literally threatening their own users.  They might as well just say "If enough users opt out, we might have to start charging for this b*tch.  So think good and hard before you decide."    

    In all seriousness, I do have to wonder what the legal implications of this possible notification might be.  It's clearly deceptive and manipulative.  It clearly implies a threat.  Apple should really step up on this one and realize that FB is just trying to slip one past the goalie with their syntax.  
    edited May 3 watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 49
    Even Google doesn’t do this. This is scaring. But Apple fans always believe Apple is the good guy. Read the complete study. Apple and Google collect both data, but what Apple does, does nobody else.
    Yes, because Google is such an upstanding, "Do No Evil" company, right?  Google would NEVER use your data for making MONEY, would they?   
    It always fascinates me the Android/Google fanbois who feel the need to troll Apple forums. I sure don't see Apple trolls at AndroidCentral, just endless circle-jerking to the latest candy named ripoff. 

    See: Android phone before iPhone announcement, it was a BB ripoff.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 49
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,473member
    crowley said:
    auxio said:
    MacPro said:
    FoodLover said:
    ppietra said:
    FoodLover said:
    ppietra said:
    Did anyone notice how they deceitfully play with words?
    First they say they are tracking some Data - avoiding saying they are tracking people!
    Then they try to seed confusion by saying "how we limit the use of this information if you don't turn on this setting", like if people choose the negative option ("not to track") Facebook will get information.

    Well, I have a Galaxy Phone and no Facebook. So FB cannot track where I am. It can just collect data on the owner.

    But when I am with iPhone users within the same network, all iPhone users are constantly sharing my location with Apple. Apple knows exactly who is in the same location with whom, independent of whether the others have an iPhone or not.

     https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/articles/new-study-raises-fresh-privacy-concerns-about-apple-and-google-mobile-phones/

     Apple not only collects data about handset activity, but also about handsets nearby. When you use WiFi, the WiFi MAC addresses of other devices on the network are sent to Apple.  When the location toggle is enabled on the handset then the precise GPS location is also included. The WiFi MAC address identifies a device on a WiFi network and so, for example, uniquely identifies your home router, cafe hotspot or office network.  That means Apple can potentially track which people you are near to, as well as when and where. That’s very concerning.

    Even Google doesn’t do this. This is scaring. But Apple fans always believe Apple is the good guy. Read the complete study. Apple and Google collect both data, but what Apple does, does nobody else.

    with all due respect but you have no idea of how Apple handles the data it collects, so you saying that Apple can track you is BS based on speculation.
    As for Facebook it is well known that it can track you even if don’t use Facebook, because Facebook is also an Ad network for other applications that you probably use, collecting data from those applications (that is Facebook business)... hey, it is even the owner of other popular apps!

    Apple is not a religion. It is just a company. Stop acting/talking like an Apple Taliban!

    Defensive much?  
    Yet another conspiracy theorist throwing around conjecture.  Apple has privacy policies for collected data, but I doubt they've looked into them.  Throwing around conjecture and scare tactics garners more attention than well-researched facts.  And this is the end of mine on the matter.
    It's not without any merit though.  Why exactly do Apple send the MAC addresses of nearby devices back to Apple?  What legitimate purpose does it serve and is it right for Apple to assume that such a purpose should be on by default, given the potential for infringing on the privacy of people who aren't even Apple customers?

    My understanding is that Apple is building a network map with location data.  Access points/routers don't tend to move, so it gets the MAC address of those and the location of the phone that is sending it and puts the location on that MAC address, so that when someone is nearby without GPS it can still have locatio0n data available for that user if needed.  With known locations for WiFi networks it can know where you are and provide location services.
    patchythepiratewatto_cobra
  • Reply 49 of 49
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,720member
    Xed said:
    I beg for FB (and Instagram) to start charging users a fee. Let's bring a swifter end to them abusing the trust of their users.
    Same here! The problem is they'd probably do both.

    But, absolutely, I'd gladly pay a reasonable fee to use Facebook if I knew they were just providing the service as it is w/o all the creepy stuff.
    In fact, I don't even mind straight out advertising (aside from the UI/distraction clutter!), or *even* targeted advertising based off interests I indicate I want my ads tailored towards. It's the tracking and cross-tracking anything and everything that is the problem.
    watto_cobra
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