AirPods to gain lossless streaming capabilities via software update, says leaker

Comments

• Reply 1 of 26

  lkrupp Posts: 10,557member

  May 19, 2021 4:48PM

  The incongruity of streaming lossless over a Bluetooth connection was a prime topic on MacBreak Weekly yesterday. At present it’s laughable to even think of. The consensus was that a high end DAC with high end wired headphones is required for any real lossless experience.
• Reply 2 of 26

  MauiMac5341 Posts: 29member

  May 19, 2021 4:54PM

  "Technically, it is impossible to broadcast a truly lossless audio file over the APTX Bluetooth connection that Apple uses. Furthermore, the limitations of a USB to Lightning cable for AirPods Max preclude it on that platform as well". oopsie, should say AAC

  
• Reply 3 of 26

  ITGUYINSD Posts: 516member

  May 19, 2021 5:08PM

  MauiMac5341 said:

  "Technically, it is impossible to broadcast a truly lossless audio file over the APTX Bluetooth connection that Apple uses. Furthermore, the limitations of a USB to Lightning cable for AirPods Max preclude it on that platform as well". oopsie, should say AAC

  When I saw that, I thought "since when does Apple support APTX"???  

  
• Reply 4 of 26

  cia Posts: 258member

  May 19, 2021 5:22PM

  C'mon.  The "speakers" built into AirPods are so crummy that even if they could somehow get full bandwidth audio into them, the audio output would be no where near the quality lossless can potentially provide.
  
  Complaining about this is such a non-issue when you have lousy headphones.
  
  It would be nice if they bumped the AAC quality up from 256 to 320 though.  That would basically make the audio indistinguishable from lossless on most headphones.

  
• Reply 5 of 26

  Beats Posts: 3,073member

  May 19, 2021 6:01PM

  If Apple could pull this off it would be a great accomplishment.
  
  

  cia said:

  C'mon.  The "speakers" built into AirPods are so crummy that even if they could somehow get full bandwidth audio into them, the audio output would be no where near the quality lossless can potentially provide.
  
  Complaining about this is such a non-issue when you have lousy headphones.
  
  It would be nice if they bumped the AAC quality up from 256 to 320 though.  That would basically make the audio indistinguishable from lossless on most headphones.

  
  That’s what I was thinking. AirPods Max users might hear a difference though.
  
  The way I see it is if Apple can increase audio quality by 1% via an update, then let them do it.

  edited May 2021
• Reply 6 of 26

  sdw2001 Posts: 18,016member

  May 19, 2021 6:33PM

  cia said:

  C'mon.  The "speakers" built into AirPods are so crummy that even if they could somehow get full bandwidth audio into them, the audio output would be no where near the quality lossless can potentially provide.
  
  Complaining about this is such a non-issue when you have lousy headphones.
  
  It would be nice if they bumped the AAC quality up from 256 to 320 though.  That would basically make the audio indistinguishable from lossless on most headphones.

  I think the bottleneck is definitely in the wireless connection, not the speakers.  Why do you claim the "speakers" are crappy?  They are very small, but they are hardly crappy.  That doesn't mean anyone will hear the difference with a  true lossless signal, of course.  
  
  I'll go a step further on your 256 to 320 bitrate comment.  It's doubtful most people will hear the difference between 256 and 320, or even 256 and lossless.  It's possible with high end equipment and good ear, I suppose.  
  
  

  
• Reply 7 of 26

  sdw2001 Posts: 18,016member

  May 19, 2021 6:55PM

  lkrupp said:

  The incongruity of streaming lossless over a Bluetooth connection was a prime topic on MacBreak Weekly yesterday. At present it’s laughable to even think of. The consensus was that a high end DAC with high end wired headphones is required for any real lossless experience.

  That is what I've been trying to explain to certain people.  The response I'm getting is akin to "damn the torpedos!"  I'm not a HiFi person, but I am picky about audio quality, particularly with the instrumental and classical genres.  That said, I think conditions would have to be nearly ideal for me to hear the difference between 256/320kpbs AAC and lossless audio.  They would include:  
  
  --High end DAC
  --High end speakers or wired headphones
  --A quiet environment 
  --The correct genre of music
  --Great source recording (what is the quality of the original? 
  
  Basically, lossless is a waste on any equipment the vast majority of consumers use.  You can forget about earbuds, most headphones, car stereos, smart speakers, integrated A/V receivers, and speakers that cost less than $2500 a pop.  We're talking systems that cost at least $10,000.   All else being equal, one might hear the difference.  
  
  

  
• Reply 8 of 26

  hodar Posts: 357member

  May 19, 2021 7:41PM

  Most of the music recorded in the past decade or so, simply doesn't have the recording artistry build into it, that was common in the 1970's.  There is a reason why artists like Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" was legendary, why people sought after SACD material from certain sources and not across the market.  Simply stated, while some bands worked for the "perfect sound" and recording engineers like Alan Parsons made great strides in this - there was a segment that said "who cares", groups like Hall and Oates for example believed that the regular person played their music on a cheap radio, or in a cheap car stereo - so they recorded their music to sound good for that segment.  It was fast, it was easier, it was cheaper; and it was the truth.  Not many people will spend thousands on their speakers, and thousands on an Amp/Pre-Amp, and then add in a DAC, power conditioner, and pay for Master Recordings.  And those recordings were both rare, and expensive.
  
  So, this becomes much ado about nothing.
  
  I would suggest that everyone at least visit a high end audio store, and listen to an expensive headset, or set of speakers, and audition a SACD or Master Recording of something in your taste, that has had the effort and love put into it that is unveiled with lossless audio.  There are many bands that made the effort, and once you experience what you have missed; you will never again be satisfied with what passed for "good" now.  For decades, the public has dealt with "good enough", but now the bandwidth and technology are allowing truly lossless music to again be available to the masses, at a cost that is comparable to what the regular recording costs.

  
• Reply 9 of 26

  Appleish Posts: 693member

  May 19, 2021 7:45PM

  I was annoyed at first when I read that my AirPods Max would not be able to benefit from (at least) their own ALAC format, much less hi-fi lossless.
  
  Later in the day, I remembered that thanks to their superior digital mastering, AAC 256k sounds better than MP3 320k, and that lossless is hardly noticeable to us mere humans anyway.
  
  Even later than that I thought, 'Wait a minute. At the very least, Apple is going to do something in firmware to be able to at least claim a better sound wirelessly.'
  
  And now this rumor. Sounds like a thing that will happen.

  edited May 2021
• Reply 10 of 26

  hucom2000 Posts: 149member

  May 19, 2021 7:56PM

  What I don’t understand is why Apple didn’t coordinate this information, if it’s true. It doesn’t make any sense from a marketing perspective

  
• Reply 11 of 26

  gregoriusm Posts: 513member

  May 19, 2021 8:40PM

  hucom2000 said:

  What I don’t understand is why Apple didn’t coordinate this information, if it’s true. It doesn’t make any sense from a marketing perspective

  Epic court case. Get the info out while the court case is on, even when the software, firmware, iOS, and lossy music isn’t yet available. 

  
• Reply 12 of 26

  charlesn Posts: 860member

  May 19, 2021 8:58PM

  This rumor makes so much sense, I can't imagine it won't turn out to be true. To announce new lossless quality for Apple Music that could not be heard on existing Apple devices made no sense. This seems like the necessary other shoe, although why both shoes weren't dropped at the same time is bizarre. How many headlines have already been written describing Apple Music Lossless as pointless?
  
  But let's be clear: the primary benefit of lossless over Bluetooth (or some great new Apple marketing name for a "near lossless" new codec) to AirPods or AirPods Pro will still be marketing as opposed to an improvement in the audio experience. Neither AirPods model has the resolving power to allow the lossless vs AAC 256 difference to be heard, to say nothing of the noisy environments in which AirPods are often used, which ANC can only mitigate to some degree. 
  
  The AirPods Max, however, could be a different story. What I've noticed most in the five months I've owned them is their ability to resolve subtle details in music--streamed over Bluetooth, no less--that my Sony XM4s miss. And the AirPods Max, by virtue of their size, weight and "Steal Me!" appearance, are more likely to be used at home in a quiet room and not in the midst of on-the-go noise. 
  
  This should be interesting... I wonder if the HomePod will also be getting lossless capability. 
• Reply 13 of 26

  jcs2305 Posts: 1,337member

  May 19, 2021 9:38PM

  hucom2000 said:

  What I don’t understand is why Apple didn’t coordinate this information, if it’s true. It doesn’t make any sense from a marketing perspective

  Its makes more sense if you see all what was said… He thinks Airpods will only use Bluetooth to pair and then will somehow use airplay as a the way to get then higher quality files to the headphones wirelessly. If Apple pulls this off and is the 1st to give us Lossless quality on wireless headphones it would be pretty huge. 

  
  

  https://youtu.be/oBJm1_Ctxg0
  
  If they can give me FLAC/ALAC quality wirelessly I may have to splurge on the AirPods Max. ߘmp;nbsp;

  edited May 2021
• Reply 14 of 26

  thedba Posts: 764member

  May 19, 2021 9:45PM

  cia said:

  C'mon.  The "speakers" built into AirPods are so crummy that even if they could somehow get full bandwidth audio into them, the audio output would be no where near the quality lossless can potentially provide.
  
  Complaining about this is such a non-issue when you have lousy headphones.
  
  It would be nice if they bumped the AAC quality up from 256 to 320 though.  That would basically make the audio indistinguishable from lossless on most headphones.

  Some of us find that when Apple went from AAC 128 to 256 it pretty much became indistinguishable from CD quality 16/44.1 kHz. 

  
• Reply 15 of 26

  thedba Posts: 764member

  May 19, 2021 10:00PM

  
  

  Appleish said:

  I was annoyed at first when I read that my AirPods Max would not be able to benefit from (at least) their own ALAC format, much less hi-fi lossless.
  
  Later in the day, I remembered that thanks to their superior digital mastering, AAC 256k sounds better than MP3 320k, and that lossless is hardly noticeable to us mere humans anyway.
  
  Even later than that I thought, 'Wait a minute. At the very least, Apple is going to do something in firmware to be able to at least claim a better sound wirelessly.'
  
  And now this rumor. Sounds like a thing that will happen.

  I’m actually tempted to get myself a pair of AirPods  Max just to experience, not necessarily the lossless but the Dolby Atmos and/or Spatial Audio recordings. 

  In theory my cheap Beats Studio 3 are compatible but not too sure about the quality when compared to APM. I’ll just wait and see until June when all this will be made available.
• Reply 16 of 26

  Appleish Posts: 693member

  May 19, 2021 10:41PM

  thedba said:

  
  

  Appleish said:

  I was annoyed at first when I read that my AirPods Max would not be able to benefit from (at least) their own ALAC format, much less hi-fi lossless.
  
  Later in the day, I remembered that thanks to their superior digital mastering, AAC 256k sounds better than MP3 320k, and that lossless is hardly noticeable to us mere humans anyway.
  
  Even later than that I thought, 'Wait a minute. At the very least, Apple is going to do something in firmware to be able to at least claim a better sound wirelessly.'
  
  And now this rumor. Sounds like a thing that will happen.

  I’m actually tempted to get myself a pair of AirPods  Max just to experience, not necessarily the lossless but the Dolby Atmos and/or Spatial Audio recordings. 

  In theory my cheap Beats Studio 3 are compatible but not too sure about the quality when compared to APM. I’ll just wait and see until June when all this will be made available.

  That's fair. Hopefully whatever they are going to do, they will do in June, along with the enhanced service. As far as the Dolby Atmos part goes, it is startling to watch Dolby Atmos films with AirPods Max and even AirPods Pro on an iOS device. I'm guessing music will be equally, if not more impressive. This is coming from someone who has a 13 channel Dolby Atmos home theater. That's 2 main speakers, 5 surround speakers, 4 ceiling Atmos speakers, and 2 subwoofers. Listening to a Dolby Atmos film on my iPhone with the AirPods Max is not quite the same, but it is surprisingly immersive. Lossless aside, Dolby Atmos/Spatial Audio music is going to be worth the price of admission.
• Reply 17 of 26

  roundaboutnow Posts: 735member

  May 19, 2021 10:47PM

  jcs2305 said:

  hucom2000 said:

  What I don’t understand is why Apple didn’t coordinate this information, if it’s true. It doesn’t make any sense from a marketing perspective

  Its makes more sense if you see all what was said… He thinks Airpods will only use Bluetooth to pair and then will somehow use airplay as a the way to get then higher quality files to the headphones wirelessly. If Apple pulls this off and is the 1st to give us Lossless quality on wireless headphones it would be pretty huge. 

  
  

  https://youtu.be/oBJm1_Ctxg0
  
  If they can give me FLAC/ALAC quality wirelessly I may have to splurge on the AirPods Max. ߘmp;nbsp;

  I can't imagine being able to discern lossless audio on any earbuds, but it might be possible on APM.
  
  As was suggested by Prosser in that Youtube, Airplay is the likely scenario, since it is a lossless stream (IIRC, limited to 16-bit/44.1KHz, but that's still pretty good).
  
  I can see a software update enabling Airplay if the RF chip they are using in the headphones is one of those combo types, similar to this one:
  https://www.broadcom.com/products/wireless/wireless-lan-bluetooth/bcm4313
  
  (Probably no reason to enable Airplay at the outset since BT handles the compressed formats nicely).
  
  PS: A wired solution could possibly be Airplay over Ethernet via a lightning-lightning or a lightning-USB cable.
• Reply 18 of 26

  MplsP Posts: 3,939member

  May 19, 2021 11:03PM

  We’ll, I think the entire idea of lossless audio over AirPods Pro is pretty laughable. Some people may be able to hear the difference on AIrPod Maxes, but I’m sure that won’t stop people from gushing about the improvement in sound quality on their AirPod Pros. 

  
  

  What is the actual resolution of the DAC in AP Pro and AP Max? IIRC, the Maxes didn’t have a high enough quality converter and I’d be shocked if the pros have a better DAC than the maxes. If that’s the case then it’s about as useful as getting an HDMI port on a VGA monitor. 

  
• Reply 19 of 26

  MacQuadra840av Posts: 207member

  May 20, 2021 12:24AM

  I bet if Apple used a standard 3.5mm audio in for the AirPod Max they would play lossless files.  But no, Apple had to use Lightning and cripple a pair of $550 headphones.  And the people that think AirPod Max can do AirPlay 2...nope, the headphones do not have Wi-Fi hardware.  Read the article next time.
  
  Still hilarious that Apple announces lossless music and they have no hardware to play it on.  They sure are changing the face of music.

  
• Reply 20 of 26

  roundaboutnow Posts: 735member

  May 20, 2021 1:05AM

  MacQuadra840av said:

  I bet if Apple used a standard 3.5mm audio in for the AirPod Max they would play lossless files.  But no, Apple had to use Lightning and cripple a pair of $550 headphones.  And the people that think AirPod Max can do AirPlay 2...nope, the headphones do not have Wi-Fi hardware.  Read the article next time.
  
  Still hilarious that Apple announces lossless music and they have no hardware to play it on.  They sure are changing the face of music.

  See my comment #17. The hardware might be there, but WiFi not enabled yet. After all, both BT and WiFi use 2.4GHz

  edited May 2021