New York State Senate passes right to repair legislation

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 55
    dr. xdr. x Posts: 280member
    swineone said:
    swineone said:
    The average Apple tech is much less knowledgeable and skilled than quite a few independent technicianS. I would trust e.g. Louis Rossmann with my hardware over ANY Apple technician. I mean ANY. There is no technician working at Apple that could do their job as well as Louis does. BTW: I’m an electrical engineer, I design portable electronic devices, and I’ve spent quite a few hours watching Louis’ videos. He displays impressive skills. And often he has to fix a crap job done by, guess who, Apple technicians.
    Bullshit. And if he wants to become a certified repair person, I'm fine with that, but your other claims are pure bullshit.

    BTW, anecdotes prove nothing
    Nice argument you put there, “bullshit”. I’m fully convinced by this one magical word.

    Screw the actual facts, such as that Louis Rossmann quite often fixes Macs deemed unfixable by Apple. And especially, how he performs fixes much more cheaply (never mind environmentally friendly) than Apple by replacing the few targeted components that actually failed rather than whole boards at a time as the Apple technicians do — indeed, if his fixes weren’t cheaper than Apple’s, who would be crazy to hire him rather than Apple fix their devices?

    Plus, he does all of these things without proper access to repair documentation and knowledge bases, and most importantly, to the parts he needs. For those who don’t know: Apple has the awful habit of calling up an IC manufacturer and throwing their weight around to require the manufacturer to create a small variation of an existing part, with a trivial and technically unnecessary change such as swapping a couple of pins around. Then Apple won’t let the manufacturer sell the same part to anyone else but Apple or provide documentation on it. Thus, repair technicians can’t get ahold of it, and must take these parts from donor boards. This is simply the most actively user-hostile move by a company that I’ve ever seen in my life. It truly sickens me every time I think of it, especially when you consider all the (lying) marketing strategy from Apple trying to paint it as a nice, friendly company that just wants to help its customers and the environment. This one example brings all that illusion down.
    Anecdotes, like exceptions, prove nothing. One man is NOT better than *ANY* Apple technician. Your argument is so ridiculous, just stop.

    It's not one man it's a group of 14 people that are really good at what they do. I have a friend who has saved money and got a working Mac after using Rossmann group. Apple techs they actually don't know that much as I took the certification course so I know.
    darkvadermuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 42 of 55
    dr. xdr. x Posts: 280member
    swineone said:
    The average Apple tech is much less knowledgeable and skilled than quite a few independent technicianS. I would trust e.g. Louis Rossmann with my hardware over ANY Apple technician. I mean ANY. There is no technician working at Apple that could do their job as well as Louis does. BTW: I’m an electrical engineer, I design portable electronic devices, and I’ve spent quite a few hours watching Louis’ videos. He displays impressive skills. And often he has to fix a crap job done by, guess who, Apple technicians.
    Bullshit. And if he wants to become a certified repair person, I'm fine with that, but your other claims are pure bullshit.

    BTW, anecdotes prove nothing

    The problem of becoming a certified apple repair shop for Louis Rossmann and many others, is that they would lose the ability to offer the services they currently offer. He does data recovery for example, Apple does not. If he became certified he would not be able to offer that service anymore.
    Boo hoo hoo.

    boo hoo what? If you lost all your data you won't be saying this, trust me.
    darkvadermuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 43 of 55
    dr. xdr. x Posts: 280member
    Beats said:
    swineone said:
    The average Apple tech is much less knowledgeable and skilled than quite a few independent technicianS. I would trust e.g. Louis Rossmann with my hardware over ANY Apple technician. I mean ANY. There is no technician working at Apple that could do their job as well as Louis does. BTW: I’m an electrical engineer, I design portable electronic devices, and I’ve spent quite a few hours watching Louis’ videos. He displays impressive skills. And often he has to fix a crap job done by, guess who, Apple technicians.

    That man is an idiot. I wouldn’t let him touch any of my Apple devices.

    Apple can at least take the blame if they fu** up. I’ve had Apple employees just hand me a refurbished device no questions asked when I’ve dropped my devices and broken them. Great customer service and no bashing original Apple products to promote some spyware cheap knockoff. 

    What do you mean idiot? why wouldn't you let them touch your devices? You'd be ok with paying full price for a logic board replacement at Apple where one component failed?

    Take a look at their ethics as they won't perform a job they can't do plain and simple.
    darkvadermuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 44 of 55
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,821member
    dr. x said:
    Beats said:
    swineone said:
    The average Apple tech is much less knowledgeable and skilled than quite a few independent technicianS. I would trust e.g. Louis Rossmann with my hardware over ANY Apple technician. I mean ANY. There is no technician working at Apple that could do their job as well as Louis does. BTW: I’m an electrical engineer, I design portable electronic devices, and I’ve spent quite a few hours watching Louis’ videos. He displays impressive skills. And often he has to fix a crap job done by, guess who, Apple technicians.

    That man is an idiot. I wouldn’t let him touch any of my Apple devices.

    Apple can at least take the blame if they fu** up. I’ve had Apple employees just hand me a refurbished device no questions asked when I’ve dropped my devices and broken them. Great customer service and no bashing original Apple products to promote some spyware cheap knockoff. 

    What do you mean idiot? 
    He means he doesn't understand the argument and doesn't know anything about the person, so resorts to insults.

    Ask him which spyware cheap knockoff Louis Rossman promotes.  He won't be able to answer because he doesn't have a clue.  Do yourself a favour and make use of the ignore button.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 45 of 55
    dr. xdr. x Posts: 280member
    crowley said:
    dr. x said:
    Beats said:
    swineone said:
    The average Apple tech is much less knowledgeable and skilled than quite a few independent technicianS. I would trust e.g. Louis Rossmann with my hardware over ANY Apple technician. I mean ANY. There is no technician working at Apple that could do their job as well as Louis does. BTW: I’m an electrical engineer, I design portable electronic devices, and I’ve spent quite a few hours watching Louis’ videos. He displays impressive skills. And often he has to fix a crap job done by, guess who, Apple technicians.

    That man is an idiot. I wouldn’t let him touch any of my Apple devices.

    Apple can at least take the blame if they fu** up. I’ve had Apple employees just hand me a refurbished device no questions asked when I’ve dropped my devices and broken them. Great customer service and no bashing original Apple products to promote some spyware cheap knockoff. 

    What do you mean idiot? 
    He means he doesn't understand the argument and doesn't know anything about the person, so resorts to insults.

    Ask him which spyware cheap knockoff Louis Rossman promotes.  He won't be able to answer because he doesn't have a clue.  Do yourself a favour and make use of the ignore button.

    Exactly, I've been following Louis for a while now. Thanks @crowley ;
    edited June 12
  • Reply 46 of 55
    fahlmanfahlman Posts: 730member
    swineone said:
    The average Apple tech is much less knowledgeable and skilled than quite a few independent technicianS. I would trust e.g. Louis Rossmann with my hardware over ANY Apple technician. I mean ANY. There is no technician working at Apple that could do their job as well as Louis does. BTW: I’m an electrical engineer, I design portable electronic devices, and I’ve spent quite a few hours watching Louis’ videos. He displays impressive skills. And often he has to fix a crap job done by, guess who, Apple technicians.
    Bullshit. And if he wants to become a certified repair person, I'm fine with that, but your other claims are pure bullshit.

    BTW, anecdotes prove nothing

    The problem of becoming a certified apple repair shop for Louis Rossmann and many others, is that they would lose the ability to offer the services they currently offer. He does data recovery for example, Apple does not. If he became certified he would not be able to offer that service anymore.
    I am a ACMT who worked at a AASP for five years. I performed data recovery on our client's Macs whenever necessary. There was no policy against it.
  • Reply 47 of 55
    darkvaderdarkvader Posts: 630member
    Like you said, repair parts that are swapped out in the field are sent to the depot for refurbishment and return to the repair part supply stream, sometimes to assist the refurbished device stream that I am about to discuss.

    Entire-device swaps at the store-level are also sent to a depot for repair and assessment. Whole-devices repaired at the depot in this fashion are sent to the service swap stock, or the refurb store.

    This depot refurbishment is done at the component level, by humans with equal or better skill than Rossmann's. Some will be slightly less talented, and some will be slightly more.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Rossmann and others like him exist. But to say that Apple doesn't have anybody in the service stream that has his level of skill is false.

    I don't buy it.

    Component level troubleshooting is expensive.  If you're Apple, boards are cheap.  I'd be amazed if anywhere in the depot repair stream Apple has anybody with Rossmann's skill, because they'd have to pay significantly more for that skill than I suspect they'd be willing to do at the volume they're dealing with.

    There are a few expensive chips on any given logic board.  I'd suspect the depot process is to strip those components, drop them in almost-complete boards that come from China, send those out as the repair parts, then shred the rest of the board.  You can do it with a robot.  They might hit a few test pins first, maybe swap a fuse if it's something that easy, but I just don't buy that they're really doing much component level repair at all.

    We know they don't reuse any exterior parts, repair parts from Apple are just too clean, there's never a dent or scratch anywhere, and any Mac that's been used is going to show at least tiny signs of wear no matter how careful the user is.  And machined aluminum parts aren't exactly cheap.

    Is Rossmann the best ever?  Nah, there are independent repair shops in China that are certainly better.  But he's likely better than anybody in Apple's repair workflow, and he's virtually guaranteed to be better than any of the Apple techs that are ever actually going to touch a complete customer machine.  He's going to be better because those techs aren't allowed to do what he does, so they aren't going to have any experience doing it.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 48 of 55
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,270administrator
    darkvader said:
    Like you said, repair parts that are swapped out in the field are sent to the depot for refurbishment and return to the repair part supply stream, sometimes to assist the refurbished device stream that I am about to discuss.

    Entire-device swaps at the store-level are also sent to a depot for repair and assessment. Whole-devices repaired at the depot in this fashion are sent to the service swap stock, or the refurb store.

    This depot refurbishment is done at the component level, by humans with equal or better skill than Rossmann's. Some will be slightly less talented, and some will be slightly more.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Rossmann and others like him exist. But to say that Apple doesn't have anybody in the service stream that has his level of skill is false.

    I don't buy it.

    Component level troubleshooting is expensive.  If you're Apple, boards are cheap.  I'd be amazed if anywhere in the depot repair stream Apple has anybody with Rossmann's skill, because they'd have to pay significantly more for that skill than I suspect they'd be willing to do at the volume they're dealing with.

    There are a few expensive chips on any given logic board.  I'd suspect the depot process is to strip those components, drop them in almost-complete boards that come from China, send those out as the repair parts, then shred the rest of the board.  You can do it with a robot.  They might hit a few test pins first, maybe swap a fuse if it's something that easy, but I just don't buy that they're really doing much component level repair at all.

    We know they don't reuse any exterior parts, repair parts from Apple are just too clean, there's never a dent or scratch anywhere, and any Mac that's been used is going to show at least tiny signs of wear no matter how careful the user is.  And machined aluminum parts aren't exactly cheap.

    Is Rossmann the best ever?  Nah, there are independent repair shops in China that are certainly better.  But he's likely better than anybody in Apple's repair workflow, and he's virtually guaranteed to be better than any of the Apple techs that are ever actually going to touch a complete customer machine.  He's going to be better because those techs aren't allowed to do what he does, so they aren't going to have any experience doing it.
    Your bolded statement is incorrect. When a human tech decides that a board is unsalvageable, then it is sent to the chip extractor. The reason for the repairs I spoke about in this thread, as it pertains to repair volumes per store.

    The chip extractor process for service-stream board acquisition was about 4.4% of the repair part volume in 2020, with an increase in 2020 versus 2019 mostly attributable to shortages in the supply chain and no desire to stockpile boards awaiting repair. It was 3.5% in 2019, and 3.8% in 2018.

    Liam and Apple's other disassembly robots disassemble what Apple gets in for recycling, and the aforementioned "not effective to repair reliably" boards. With that volume alone, they are at nearly 100% capacity, 24/7.

    Apple can, and does, reuse exterior parts, when able. The defect & recycle rate on them from the service chain is about 60% on the iPhone, and about 40% on the Mac though.

    You don't have to "buy it." This is how it is.
    edited June 13 williamlondonmuthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 49 of 55
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,307member

    To be clear on my position on this: I am fine with third-parties getting screens, batteries, structural members, camera modules, and the like and Apple has taken moves to supply some of this to some folks -- but yes, that removes their ability to do component-level repairs as part of the terms of service of the program. I am not fine with them having anything to do with the Secure Enclave or anything related to data storage.

    What many people here seem unable to comprehend is that both routes can exist together. The availability of 3rd party repair shops doesn’t mean Apple will cease to make repairs or that they will do all repairs. 

    People make the analogy of auto repairs repeatedly, and it’s an apt comparison. The windshield on my Audi got cracked by a rock. I took it to a 3rd party glass shop who did the repair but then took it to the dealership because some sensors behind the rearview mirror had be calibrated by Audi. It was cheaper and more convenient to take it to the 3rd party shop but they still made use of Audi’s expertise. If we can trust a guy at the corner service station to replace the brakes on a 350 HP, 2 ton truck, why do we have problems trusting someone besides Apple to replace a screen on our iPhone?

    It amazes me how people on this site are unable to appreciate nuance or any sort of middle ground - pretty much the only arguments here are hyperbole, slippery slope or straw man arguments, or simply make unfounded assumptions to prove their point.
    williamlondonmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 50 of 55
    dr. xdr. x Posts: 280member
    MplsP said:

    To be clear on my position on this: I am fine with third-parties getting screens, batteries, structural members, camera modules, and the like and Apple has taken moves to supply some of this to some folks -- but yes, that removes their ability to do component-level repairs as part of the terms of service of the program. I am not fine with them having anything to do with the Secure Enclave or anything related to data storage.

    What many people here seem unable to comprehend is that both routes can exist together. The availability of 3rd party repair shops doesn’t mean Apple will cease to make repairs or that they will do all repairs. 

    People make the analogy of auto repairs repeatedly, and it’s an apt comparison. The windshield on my Audi got cracked by a rock. I took it to a 3rd party glass shop who did the repair but then took it to the dealership because some sensors behind the rearview mirror had be calibrated by Audi. It was cheaper and more convenient to take it to the 3rd party shop but they still made use of Audi’s expertise. If we can trust a guy at the corner service station to replace the brakes on a 350 HP, 2 ton truck, why do we have problems trusting someone besides Apple to replace a screen on our iPhone?

    It amazes me how people on this site are unable to appreciate nuance or any sort of middle ground - pretty much the only arguments here are hyperbole, slippery slope or straw man arguments, or simply make unfounded assumptions to prove their point.
    Right on, such a good point.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 51 of 55
    WTHWTH Posts: 25member
    WTH said:
    Beats said:

    Apple can at least take the blame if they fu** up. I’ve had Apple employees just hand me a refurbished device no questions asked when I’ve dropped my devices and broken them. Great customer service and no bashing original Apple products to promote some spyware cheap knockoff. 
    Last month I took my iPhone to the Genius Bar to replace a dying battery.  In the process of replacing the battery, the tech damaged the logic board.

    I walked out of the Apple Store with a brand new iPhone for the price of a battery replacement.  A third-party repair shop could never do that.
    Another ridiculous fucking statement, absolute drivel. JFC a course in logic is definitely needed around here.
    I often have to wonder if the people who post in these forums just sit around trying to think of ways they can get angry at what someone has said.

    Allow me to clarify:  if I walk into a third party repair shop, I can just about guarantee that if they destroy my iPhone in the course of a repair, that they are not going to hand me a brand new Apple product on the spot as compensation.  What they will do is apologize and comp the repair, or try to obtain a refurbished unit (which may take a few days), or order more parts to fix it (which again may take a few days).  But they will not give me a brand new iPhone so that I can leave in less than an hour as a happy customer.

    You think I need a course a logic?  You should try one in anger management.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 55
    swineone said:
    The average Apple tech is much less knowledgeable and skilled than quite a few independent technicianS. I would trust e.g. Louis Rossmann with my hardware over ANY Apple technician. I mean ANY. There is no technician working at Apple that could do their job as well as Louis does. BTW: I’m an electrical engineer, I design portable electronic devices, and I’ve spent quite a few hours watching Louis’ videos. He displays impressive skills. And often he has to fix a crap job done by, guess who, Apple technicians.
    Bullshit. And if he wants to become a certified repair person, I'm fine with that, but your other claims are pure bullshit.

    BTW, anecdotes prove nothing

    The problem of becoming a certified apple repair shop for Louis Rossmann and many others, is that they would lose the ability to offer the services they currently offer. He does data recovery for example, Apple does not. If he became certified he would not be able to offer that service anymore.
    If the company that is currently "Louis Rossmann" were to become a "certified" Apple repair shop, there is absolutely no legal bar to the person Louis Rossmann spinning up a completely separate company that is not certified.  He can then be employed by both of them.


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 55
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,245member
    sdw2001 said:
    JonG said:
    There will be problems created by anybody.  This legislation already exists for something a lot more complicated and dangerous than our stupid phones: Cars.

    Would you like to be told that the only person who could fix a Ford is the Ford dealership.  Then the dealership near you closes, and the next closest dealership is 75 miles away.

    What happens to all those people that don't live near an Apple Store?  Oh... go to Best Buy.. where they never have the appropriate parts in stock. And why should Best Buy be "blessed" any more than any other technician?  They aren't trained by Apple Inc., they are trained by Best Buy (and having worked there I can give you first hand information of the uselessness of their training).

    Right to repair legislation gives access to owners and repair centers for the documentation on how to fix something.  It also gives access to purchase genuine parts.  It doesn't make Apple "bless" the repair center as authorized, it just means that consumers have a choice.  They have a choice now, but the problem is that the choices get limited because those repair people can ONLY purchase 3rd party, crap, parts.

    For anyone that is against this, please explain how users would be harmed by having information and genuine parts access?  Bearing in mind that users and repair centers can already access cheap, knockoff parts that make "your phone explode".
    It’s not clear that various state auto right to repair laws have had much effect.  If I have a significant repair, I want the dealer to do it anyway,  And in auto repair, third party parts are often preferable for older models, because they are less expensive.  

    I don’t necessarily agree with the electronics industry or Apple on this.  My concern is about government stepping into yet another area in which it has no business.  It’s not a question of being for or against the right to repair.  It’s about being ok with government mandating the policy.  I lean on the “no” side for that one.  

    Moreover, I do think Apple has a point here with regard to quality control.  They want to make sure their products are repaired by certified techs with genuine parts.  I’m certainly ok with pushing to change their policy to an access and certification system.  But I don’t think getting a law passed is the way to do it.  
    Would the automakers have voluntarily done what the Magnusen-Moss Act mandated? Not likely IMHO. What's your take?
    edited June 17 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 54 of 55
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,821member
    swineone said:
    The average Apple tech is much less knowledgeable and skilled than quite a few independent technicianS. I would trust e.g. Louis Rossmann with my hardware over ANY Apple technician. I mean ANY. There is no technician working at Apple that could do their job as well as Louis does. BTW: I’m an electrical engineer, I design portable electronic devices, and I’ve spent quite a few hours watching Louis’ videos. He displays impressive skills. And often he has to fix a crap job done by, guess who, Apple technicians.
    Bullshit. And if he wants to become a certified repair person, I'm fine with that, but your other claims are pure bullshit.

    BTW, anecdotes prove nothing

    The problem of becoming a certified apple repair shop for Louis Rossmann and many others, is that they would lose the ability to offer the services they currently offer. He does data recovery for example, Apple does not. If he became certified he would not be able to offer that service anymore.
    If the company that is currently "Louis Rossmann" were to become a "certified" Apple repair shop, there is absolutely no legal bar to the person Louis Rossmann spinning up a completely separate company that is not certified.  He can then be employed by both of them.
    There's probably no legal bar to a certified Apple shop doing data recovery either, they'll just find their Apple certification gets revoked pretty sharply when Apple finds out about it.  And I doubt Apple would view your two company solution to be acceptable either, and no less detectable.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 55 of 55
    crowley said:
    swineone said:
    The average Apple tech is much less knowledgeable and skilled than quite a few independent technicianS. I would trust e.g. Louis Rossmann with my hardware over ANY Apple technician. I mean ANY. There is no technician working at Apple that could do their job as well as Louis does. BTW: I’m an electrical engineer, I design portable electronic devices, and I’ve spent quite a few hours watching Louis’ videos. He displays impressive skills. And often he has to fix a crap job done by, guess who, Apple technicians.
    Bullshit. And if he wants to become a certified repair person, I'm fine with that, but your other claims are pure bullshit.

    BTW, anecdotes prove nothing

    The problem of becoming a certified apple repair shop for Louis Rossmann and many others, is that they would lose the ability to offer the services they currently offer. He does data recovery for example, Apple does not. If he became certified he would not be able to offer that service anymore.
    If the company that is currently "Louis Rossmann" were to become a "certified" Apple repair shop, there is absolutely no legal bar to the person Louis Rossmann spinning up a completely separate company that is not certified.  He can then be employed by both of them.
    There's probably no legal bar to a certified Apple shop doing data recovery either, they'll just find their Apple certification gets revoked pretty sharply when Apple finds out about it.  And I doubt Apple would view your two company solution to be acceptable either, and no less detectable.
    I doubt they'd have much choice about accepting it.  The "separate company" tactic is one used by many, many companies to get around restrictions exactly like this one.  If Apple wants to violate their contract with a company that doesn't do restricted items, they can certainly have their day in court.

    No doubt Apple will put all kinds of weasel language in any such contract, but unilateral benefits aren't going to be very popular among the crowd that's likely to be supporting right to repair legislation.
    williamlondon
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