Apple attorneys threaten UK market exit if court orders 'unacceptable' patent fees

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 108
    mcdave said:
    The may have to leave the UK market to set an example and cool the current wave of attacks. What would be the cost of not leaving?
    Interesting that you did not comment on the copyright infringement but on the fact that Apple might leave. So in your mind it’s okay for Apple to steal someone else’s IP. Good to know. 
    seanjbeautyspin
  • Reply 42 of 108
    iadlibiadlib Posts: 85member
    That’s one way to politically lobby. 
  • Reply 43 of 108
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    crowley said:
    Consumers will pay the toll in raised prices.  Let the UK shoot themselves in the foot.  
    aderutter said:
    Yep, us UK customers will simply pay a higher price for an iPhone. 
    Did you miss the part where this judgement is for a global patent rate?

    The Limey's will be paying shipping, Fx costs and import duties when they buy their iPhones from the EU.
    I very much doubt that's what they meant.  Apple aren't leaving the UK it's all hot air.
  • Reply 44 of 108
    pwrmacpwrmac Posts: 34member
    I don't understand. Apple does not make this chips but source then from different companies? So why not sue the LTE chip producer? Guess Apple is where the money is.
    spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 108
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 3,178member
    Marvin said:

    Total iPhone sales are estimated around 52m units between 2011-2019. At an ASP of $800, that makes $41.6b and a 25% net profit margin is around $10b. Issuing a $7b charge for a couple of patents is insane and would of course lead Apple to consider leaving the UK to avoid paying it. It seems to be applied to every iPhone sold worldwide but that's equivalent to $134 per iPhone they've ever sold in the UK. 
    I've been the only person on these forums to consistently and repeatedly say, for about two years now, that Apple should leave any market where the government makes it unprofitable to continue doing business in that country. I am consistently mocked for this point of view, just as people are being mocked in this thread for saying the same thing. I find it reassuring that a fair number of people on this thread are actually agreeing with me today. All my work wasn't for nothing. Your post and your numbers above, Marvin, are very persuasive. Thanks.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 108
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,430member
    Marvin said:

    Total iPhone sales are estimated around 52m units between 2011-2019. At an ASP of $800, that makes $41.6b and a 25% net profit margin is around $10b. Issuing a $7b charge for a couple of patents is insane and would of course lead Apple to consider leaving the UK to avoid paying it. It seems to be applied to every iPhone sold worldwide but that's equivalent to $134 per iPhone they've ever sold in the UK. 
    I've been the only person on these forums to consistently and repeatedly say, for about two years now, that Apple should leave any market where the government makes it unprofitable to continue doing business in that country. I am consistently mocked for this point of view, just as people are being mocked in this thread for saying the same thing. I find it reassuring that a fair number of people on this thread are actually agreeing with me today. All my work wasn't for nothing. Your post and your numbers above, Marvin, are very persuasive. Thanks.
    The idea doesn't make any sense. If everything is supposed to form an ecosystem with the phone as a central element, any move to withdraw suddenly has knock on effects. No more AppleCare and huge impact on other Apple services too. Can you imagine Apple Retail without iPhones? How long would that survive in the High Street?

    Not to mention all the business they would be literally 'throwing away' , going straight to competing ecosystems.


    edited July 2021 muthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFellerseanj
  • Reply 47 of 108
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    Marvin said:

    Total iPhone sales are estimated around 52m units between 2011-2019. At an ASP of $800, that makes $41.6b and a 25% net profit margin is around $10b. Issuing a $7b charge for a couple of patents is insane and would of course lead Apple to consider leaving the UK to avoid paying it. It seems to be applied to every iPhone sold worldwide but that's equivalent to $134 per iPhone they've ever sold in the UK. 
    I've been the only person on these forums to consistently and repeatedly say, for about two years now, that Apple should leave any market where the government makes it unprofitable to continue doing business in that country. I am consistently mocked for this point of view,
    That is not what you have been saying, not what you were mocked for. 
  • Reply 48 of 108
    crowley said:
    Marvin said:

    Total iPhone sales are estimated around 52m units between 2011-2019. At an ASP of $800, that makes $41.6b and a 25% net profit margin is around $10b. Issuing a $7b charge for a couple of patents is insane and would of course lead Apple to consider leaving the UK to avoid paying it. It seems to be applied to every iPhone sold worldwide but that's equivalent to $134 per iPhone they've ever sold in the UK. 
    I've been the only person on these forums to consistently and repeatedly say, for about two years now, that Apple should leave any market where the government makes it unprofitable to continue doing business in that country. I am consistently mocked for this point of view,
    That is not what you have been saying, not what you were mocked for. 
    Exactly!!!

    @22july2013: You were/are being mocked for suggesting that Apple leave markets at the slightest hint of scrutiny of Apple's practices, adhering to the various demands (irrespective of whether implementable or not)  from host country, NOT when doing business becomes unprofitable in that country. There is a HUGE difference between what you have been suggesting in other threads and this specific post. And as Avon B7 has explained in above post, it still does not make sense for Apple to pull out of a market as big as UK, instead of using legal channels to remedy their situation if they strongly believe that injustice is being meted out to them.
    edited July 2021
  • Reply 49 of 108
    killroykillroy Posts: 220member

    killroy said:
    If the UK market becomes too toxic then leaving it may not be a bad thing. Apple is a for profit business and if the market condition isn’t profitable whats the point of been on it? Besides is not like the UK market is as big as the EU market.

    The EU market is also getting toxic.

    Is that why UK based international businesses are migrating to the EU?

    Some poison is deadlier than others.
  • Reply 50 of 108
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,919member
    lkrupp said:
    mcdave said:
    aderutter said:
    Yep, us UK customers will simply pay a higher price for an iPhone. 
    Fewer will, the rest will blame Apple and defect.
    Give us an example of where that happened when Apple raised it prices. Current surveys seem to indicate people are defecting TO Apple instead of away from it, even with higher prices.
    Just friends & family. I’m also finding fewer contacts are blue in iMessage. There may be figures saying otherwise but those with money are more able to spend it in a recession.
  • Reply 51 of 108
    emig647emig647 Posts: 2,448member
    They will be leaving the State of Texas, next.
    They kind of have already. They closed their one store in East Texas in order to avoid being sued in Marshall Texas.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 108
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,419member
    mcdave said:
    seanj said:
    danox said:
    mcdave said:
    The may have to leave the UK market to set an example and cool the current wave of attacks. What would be the cost of not leaving?
    At some point a stand needs to be made, the UK being a small country, is just the place….
    Clearly clueless about finance if you think the U.K. is small, it’s a G7 member.
    So what? The iPhone uptake isn’t that great, there are a lot of choice-monkeys in the UK.
    iPhone uptake isn’t that great….. I’m not sure how 50%+ of an uptake of all smartphone sales in the U.K. counts as “not that great”, where did you learn to count?
    seanj
  • Reply 53 of 108
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,419member

    killroy said:
    If the UK market becomes too toxic then leaving it may not be a bad thing. Apple is a for profit business and if the market condition isn’t profitable whats the point of been on it? Besides is not like the UK market is as big as the EU market.

    The EU market is also getting toxic.

    Is that why UK based international businesses are migrating to the EU?
    There is no major exodus of businesses from the U.K. to Europe. More are moving in that moving out at the moment as it happens.
    seanj
  • Reply 54 of 108
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,834moderator
    crowley said:
    Marvin said:

    If the courts allowed every patent owner to do the same, the costs would eventually amount to far more than the cost of the entire product, which makes no sense.
    Why not?  IP certainly has value, I don't see why it makes no sense for it to have more value than the assembly cost of the physical product.  For a technology product that's a composite of so many hardware and software elements and operating in an integrated network of assorted standards, the iPhone is very exposed to patents.  They'll just have to raise the price to accommodate the licensing.
    Going forward they can raise the prices but not in retrospect. To allow a single company with a couple of patents to wipe out nearly all of a company's net profit in a region for a decade is crazy. There should be a time limit applied at least in retrospect such as no royalties 5 years or more back, 20% royalties 4 years back, 40% 3, 60% 2, 80% 1 and 100% going forward and they can decide if they agree to the terms.

    Making a company pay full royalty rates they didn't agree to and didn't apply to their products at the time of sale is not a fair policy. An established business could operate for decades and some random patent troll emerges and bankrupts the company overnight over some trivial patents. One of their patents is for switching between 3G/4G and the slow 2G network and covers some basic algorithm to determine when to switch. That's not worth $7b and no company would agree to pay those rates, which is why Intel and Qualcomm didn't. Apple shouldn't then have to cover this when they only used chips made by those other companies.

    Patent infringement should be applied to the companies who make the infringing components, that's Intel and Qualcomm in this case and patent owners shouldn't be allowed to apply their own made-up royalty rates retroactively that weren't agreed to by the infringing companies. What's to stop them saying $20 per device and then it's over $35b, that's a completely unworkable way to do business.
    GeorgeBMacFileMakerFellerkillroywatto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 108
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,273member
    saarek said:

    killroy said:
    If the UK market becomes too toxic then leaving it may not be a bad thing. Apple is a for profit business and if the market condition isn’t profitable whats the point of been on it? Besides is not like the UK market is as big as the EU market.

    The EU market is also getting toxic.

    Is that why UK based international businesses are migrating to the EU?
    There is no major exodus of businesses from the U.K. to Europe. More are moving in that moving out at the moment as it happens.
    I’d like to see the numbers for that, please. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 56 of 108
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 3,178member
    crowley said:
    Marvin said:

    Total iPhone sales are estimated around 52m units between 2011-2019. At an ASP of $800, that makes $41.6b and a 25% net profit margin is around $10b. Issuing a $7b charge for a couple of patents is insane and would of course lead Apple to consider leaving the UK to avoid paying it. It seems to be applied to every iPhone sold worldwide but that's equivalent to $134 per iPhone they've ever sold in the UK. 
    I've been the only person on these forums to consistently and repeatedly say, for about two years now, that Apple should leave any market where the government makes it unprofitable to continue doing business in that country. I am consistently mocked for this point of view,
    That is not what you have been saying, not what you were mocked for. 
    Exactly!!!

    @22july2013: You were/are being mocked for suggesting that Apple leave markets at the slightest hint of scrutiny of Apple's practices, adhering to the various demands (irrespective of whether implementable or not)  from host country, NOT when doing business becomes unprofitable in that country. There is a HUGE difference between what you have been suggesting in other threads and this specific post. And as Avon B7 has explained in above post, it still does not make sense for Apple to pull out of a market as big as UK, instead of using legal channels to remedy their situation if they strongly believe that injustice is being meted out to them.
    Those words are yours, not mine, i.e., "at the slightest hint of scrutiny." You just make false stuff up without citing anything I said. The fact that you and Crowley are both "attacking" me without citing any proof of your claim, is precisely the proof of my claim that I am "consistently attacked" (direct quote).
  • Reply 57 of 108
    seanjseanj Posts: 300member
    mcdave said:
    seanj said:
    danox said:
    mcdave said:
    The may have to leave the UK market to set an example and cool the current wave of attacks. What would be the cost of not leaving?
    At some point a stand needs to be made, the UK being a small country, is just the place….
    Clearly clueless about finance if you think the U.K. is small, it’s a G7 member.
    So what? The iPhone uptake isn’t that great, there are a lot of choice-monkeys in the UK.
    And you’re clearly clueless about iphone market rates too. The iPhone has a higher market share in the U.K. than the USA.
  • Reply 58 of 108
    seanjseanj Posts: 300member

    killroy said:
    If the UK market becomes too toxic then leaving it may not be a bad thing. Apple is a for profit business and if the market condition isn’t profitable whats the point of been on it? Besides is not like the UK market is as big as the EU market.

    The EU market is also getting toxic.

    Is that why UK based international businesses are migrating to the EU?
    Except they are not. More businesses are moving to the U.K. and inward investment is higher than its ever been.
  • Reply 59 of 108
    seanjseanj Posts: 300member
    Apple would not be the first to leave the UK.   Many international financial institutions have already beat them to it and headed across the channel.

    The UK intended itself to become more business friendly by leaving the EU.   But it appears they are becoming less so.
    Not true, what hallucinogens are you taking?
  • Reply 60 of 108
    seanjseanj Posts: 300member
    Marvin said:
    seanj said:
    mcdave said:
    The may have to leave the UK market to set an example and cool the current wave of attacks. What would be the cost of not leaving?
    Presumably you think they should leave the Texas market too? Absolutely stupid comment. As if legal courts pay attention to childish threats like this.

    The UK is way too profitable for Apple to even consider doing this.
    There are estimates of iPhone sales in the UK here:

    https://www.finder.com/uk/iphone-sales-statistics

    Total UK population is around 68m and that estimates around 7m sales per year. Active userbase is split 60/40 with Android, with 19m UK iPhone users:

    https://www.emarketer.com/newsroom/index.php/iphones-gaining-market-share-in-us-but-losing-in-uk/

    Total iPhone sales are estimated around 52m units between 2011-2019. At an ASP of $800, that makes $41.6b and a 25% net profit margin is around $10b. Issuing a $7b charge for a couple of patents is insane and would of course lead Apple to consider leaving the UK to avoid paying it. It seems to be applied to every iPhone sold worldwide but that's equivalent to $134 per iPhone they've ever sold in the UK. The judicial system around patents needs to be reformed everywhere, it's crazy that this threat to Apple's business is allowed to happen. Apple doesn't even make the cellular chips.

    https://www.mintz.com/insights-center/viewpoints/2231/2019-03-panoptis-recent-victory-against-huawei-demonstrates-why
    https://wccftech.com/apple-to-pay-506-million-for-infringing-on-panoptis-4g-lte-patents/

    There are amounts listed here:

    "PanOptis argues that it should be awarded $4.22 per iPhone, $3.62 per iPad that infringes its patents, and $2.25 per Apple Watch."

    https://appleworld.today/2021/03/31/patent-trollin-panoptis-wants-even-more-moolah-from-apple/

    If the courts allowed every patent owner to do the same, the costs would eventually amount to far more than the cost of the entire product, which makes no sense.
    So?!? Your argument only holds up if iPhones were the only product or service Apple sold in the U.K. 
    You’re forgetting iPads, Macs, Watches, AirPods, iTunes, iCloud, etc, etc, etc, etc and all the profits made from these. All of which would be lost if Apple pulled out of the U.K.

    PS: the U.K. population is over 70 million
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