<strong>My own theory about the one button mouse is simple pride and arrogance on Apples part. They will never admit defeat or that they were wrong about an interface idea. I'm glad they tried it. that shows inventiveness. The fact that they won't move on, however, shows blind stubbornness.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think we will definitely see a 2-button, wireless Bluetooth mouse at MWNY in July. Apple has been focusing a lot on Bluetooth in the past months, and all the software elements for an Apple-branded wireless mouse are there (especially when OS 10.2 is previewed/released in July); all that's missing is the hardware.
The battery issues could be solved by using rechargeable batteries that would be charged with a USB cable connecting the mouse to the keyboard. The USB cable would also allow you to use the mouse at the same time. This procedure would be similar to the way the iPod charges.
Most folks plug a mouse into their laptops anyhoo.<hr></blockquote>
I for once don't and I desperately want 2 buttons on the laptop itself. On desktops it doesn't matter since anyone can just throw the ugly black bulb in the trash bin and install a new mouse but you can't with a powerbook
Apple really needs to offer a two button mouse w/ scroll wheel. It would please those users like myself who like the extra functionality of such a mouse, and for those who like a one button mouse, they can simply use ONE button on the two button mouse.
There is no need for Apple to offer options for a single button mouse and a two button mouse w/ scroll wheel, that's ridiculous. Just because the mouse has two buttons doesn't mean all users MUST use both buttons (or the scroll wheel). Am I getting through any thick skulls here? Apple could even make a 6 button mouse with two scroll wheels, and the lunkheads here could happily go on using only ONE button! In other words, a two+ button mouse is compatible with both one button and >1 button users, but a single button mouse is not compatible with any users besides the one button mouse users.
In reality, after trying a two button mouse w/ scrollwheel, most people would never go back to a single button mouse. Some people even like more buttons, but I think two buttons (and the scroll wheel can also act as a button when pressed, for a total of three buttons) is a nice standard for now.
I hope Apple never turns to the two button mouse. It is one button for a reason. Apple wanted the public to think that the OS is so easy to use and navigate that it only takes a single button to do what a PC takes 2 or 3 buttons to do.
Sorry, no sale, Mac Voyer. You don't need to know anything about option-click to get around. Click and double-click suffice, and click-and-hold and click-and-drag are nice bonuses.
Besides, it makes no sense for Apple to go two button. If they're going to go multibutton, they should have three. That's the standard for a UNIX workstation, and that's one of the ways they're selling OS X.
Two button mice would be a senseless compromise. Too much complexity, but not enough power.
I'd still prefer one button, unless Apple comes up with a radical rethinking of a multi-"button" mouse design. More complex mice are there for those who want them.
Once again, for all people who forgot about beeing a beginner.
People are not confused about using a 2nd button, they are confused about the existance of a 2nd button! Go and try to explain your grandmother about the 2nd button like I did. Most of you will understand afterwards.
About control-click. It is less confusing to many people, but who needs control-click at all? Pro users, no beginners. You can do almost every task without control-click or a 2nd button. And holding down the mouse button until the context menu opens is really easy.
To those guys, who don't care about the wishes and needs of people, who are satisfied with their one button mouse, why should they care about you and your wishes and needs? No offense, just a simple question.
If Apple releases a new Pro mouse with a scroll wheel and a second button, but working as good as the one button mouse, forget it. The Pro mouse is not a very good mouse and not worth their money. I need a mouse pad to work with the Pro mouse, that's really annoying.
I'd like to see a mouse similar in design to the current one (it shure looks good). but instead of a scrollwheel protruding through a hole i the "clickable area", as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, i'd like to see one on each side. they'd be connected through an axis, so you can't confuse the 'puter by turning them both in opposite directions simultaneously.
it would retain the ergonomic advantage of one big button in the middle. The wheels would be sort of on the fat side, and clickable, acting as a second button. they would both have the same effect, so lefties wouldn't have to remap. there would also be a couple of combinations that could be exploited by certain apps, such as clicking both wheels simultaneously or wheel + button.
I stand behind my last post. I fail to see the complexity of a multi button mouse. I doesn't have to just be 2 buttons. My mouse uses 5 + scroll. the buttons are "back", "forward", "select", "context", and the scroll button can be programmed to do a variety of tasks such as task switching. As far as explaining it to grandma, try explaining the terminal or permissions to grandma. Try explaining the difference between the option key and the command key and all those function buttons 1-12 on the keyboard.
The personal computer is not a toaster! It requires a learning curve! You have to meet some bare minimum intellectual requirements to operate one. Those people who can't figure out how to use a two button mouse probably still have 12:00 flashing on their microwave and VCR. Should we remove the clocks because some people can't figure out how to set them? In what way is option click or click and hold easier or more understandable than right clicking. To suggest that those methods are more user-friendly and simpler to learn is not being intellectually honest.
Finally, why should Apple care about the needs and desires of two button mousers? Because we make up more than 95% of the market. Consider. How many Mac users are clamoring for a two button mouse? Many. How many PC users are clamoring for a one button mouse? None.
Fire wire, great idea. Everybody wants it. Keep it up. GUI, great idea. Everybody needs it. Keep it up. Flat screens, great idea. Everybody loves them. Keep it up. Removal of the a: drive, the jury is still out on that one. The one button mouse, abysmal failure. Few people want it, nobody needs it, and most people hate it. Give it up. Enough already!
<strong>I fail to see the complexity of a multi button mouse.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How can you fail to see the difference in complexity? We aren't arguing about cars, but wouldn't you say that a car with a single steering wheel is significantly less complex than one with two steering wheels? Three? Five?
Yes. One steering wheel is the least complex of the above. Remember this, it will be important later.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>I doesn't have to just be 2 buttons. My mouse uses 5 + scroll. the buttons are "back", "forward", "select", "context", and the scroll button can be programmed to do a variety of tasks such as task switching.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's wonderful for you. Some video editing people use a small device that probably has a dozen buttons on it. There are sound-editing devices that have dozens of sliders, buttons, and switches on them. More than likely, there is a device in front of you with a number of buttons that you press that each have functions, like telling the computer to print certain letters, numbers, and symbols on screen, combining with them to trigger actions, or to navigate onscreen. It can also be used to modify what functional type of "clicking" you are doing, such as a control-click (right click), command-click, or option-click. You may even have one of these devices that controls screen brightness, volume, or ejects CDs! It does a pretty good job of that, wouldn't you say?
Let's look at the mouse, now. It's meant to be a physical mode of controlling and representing the cursor onscreen. Since your screen is meant to be a flat representation of your desk, there needs to be a way to "grab" on to things or select others, thus, a click and the click-drag action. If a document or interface is larger than your onscreen "desk," there are arrows you can click to "scroll" up and down, like unwrapping a real scroll. There are numerous usability enhancements beyond that, including keyboard shortcuts for every kind of scrolling you could want to do. Some mice even have small wheels that scroll, which are a decent idea as even with these interface enhancements, scrolling for long periods of time can show that mice and keyboards are not suited for such things.
I can see the need for a scroll wheel; I love mine. I also have a 3-button mouse, but I very seldom use the buttons, and even more seldom do I encounter a need. Whenever I do encounter a need, software anticipates that need, so I don't have to use it. When I do, I can always click-hold for a menu, or control-click to immediately get a menu. There are even preferences, hacks, third party software packages, and other add-ons, I can install to enhance these abilities to suit any niche needs I might have (I suggest you research these options).
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>As far as explaining it to grandma, try explaining the terminal or permissions to grandma. Try explaining the difference between the option key and the command key and all those function buttons 1-12 on the keyboard. </strong><hr></blockquote>
The terminal explanation would be pretty easy... it's a way of navigating/editing files and folders, as well as accessing text-only or very old/arcane applications. I'm sure she wouldn't be interested much, but could understand that the command-line interface was a precursor to the visual interface (with some explanation).
Permissions would be pretty obvious too. What users can read, edit, move, delete, etc files and folders.
Command key, for commands. Option key, for different "options" as far as strange characters/symbols, and commands. Function keys, press them, and they can do a function assigned to them a lot easier than clicking and dragging and typing and whatnot.
My grandma isn't a computer geek, but has a basic understanding of files and clicking and typing. I don't see at all why she wouldn't understand these things. Of course, having a basic concept understanding is far different from being interested, caring, or having a need/desire to USE these things.
If I tried to explain to her the different kinds of mouse buttons, I can already envision her asking why that is even necessary. Why can't those things be in a menu at the top of the screen, or pop up automatically, or why can't the keyboard be used like with a key command? Why are the things in a pop-up contextual menu necessary? What is that second, third, fourth, fifth button doing for her?
I don't know what I would say to her. "It's just an old, quick solution to a stupid design problem that people have ignored," maybe.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>The personal computer is not a toaster! It requires a learning curve!</strong><hr></blockquote>
This strikes me as being a very un-Mac-like thing to say. Perhaps you should reconsider your platform, or at least stop preaching what you know Apple should do.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>You have to meet some bare minimum intellectual requirements to operate one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, one does require some bare minimum intellectual requirements.. But there is a large difference between "bare minimum intellectual requirements" to operate computers, and the NEED/desire to have multiple mouse buttons on them. Come on, now.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong> Those people who can't figure out how to use a two button mouse probably still have 12:00 flashing on their microwave and VCR. Should we remove the clocks because some people can't figure out how to set them?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, but does that mean we should just continue to accept flashing 12:00 on our VCR clocks? How about we make it EASIER to change that, how about we make smart VCRs? How about VCRs that never need to be set? How about VCRs that set themselves? And check themselves to be correct? How about VCRs that cooperate with all of our components to ensure we've got the correct timing going, eh?
That's what we call forward thinking. More buttons to clutter up our pointing devices, is not.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong> In what way is option click or click and hold easier or more understandable than right clicking. To suggest that those methods are more user-friendly and simpler to learn is not being intellectually honest. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Click-hold is just as logical as go-to-the-top-of-the-screen-where-you-see-words-and-click, also known as using the Apple or File or whatever menu. If you want to get an idea of how stupid some of us see a second or third or 17th mouse button as being, imagine if Apple 'pioneered' a special mouse with a button whose use is for clicking menus at the top of the screen? Why the hell does anyone need it? The only reason would be that it's too hard to navigate to the top of the screen and click a menu, which isn't an issue, but could be--and if it were--that would just be a stupid, backwards, temporary solution to a BAD metaphor design.
"It's too hard for me to reach all the way over to the other side of my desk to reach my pencil jar when I'm drawing. I'll just grow another arm, instead of moving the pencil jar!"
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>Finally, why should Apple care about the needs and desires of two button mousers? Because we make up more than 95% of the market. Consider. How many Mac users are clamoring for a two button mouse? Many. How many PC users are clamoring for a one button mouse? None. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is really the stupidest chunk of crock I've read yet. I'm sorry, but it really is.
You mean to state that (1) users of two-button mice (2) make up 95% of the (3) market. I've enumerated the problems with this. First (1), having a two-button mouse does not mean you are a USER of a two-button mouse, more specifically it does not mean you use more than one button of it. Even if you DO count those who use the second buttons of their mice, there is no way you can just state that you know people like it, and simply because people do something does not make it right or in any way correct (or in their own best interest). Secondly, (2), keeping the above statement in mind, the true USERS of two-button mice who need/desire to continue using their multi-button mice do not make up 95% of computer users... more than likely, it's abysmally less. IMHO, the people who need multiple buttons are in such a small niche that even if Apple were considering and willing to support them, it would not prove nearly worthwhile enough to do so. Lastly (3), the established computer-using base of the world is different than the MARKET. Yes, most computer owners are going to be repeat customers because of the endless pace of technology, but considering that only 54% of American homes have personal computers, there is a LOT of market out there, and a significant portion of them are inexperienced (after all, how could you get experience if you didn't already have a computer or use one elsewhere?). There is no secret that for beginners or inexperienced, simplicity and non-complexity is the winner. Apple knows this. It's obvious. Even for computer gurus, they're smart enough to know that one button is just good design. No buttons to add, no buttons to remove. (Of course, Apple COULD implement a scroll wheel. IMHO. )
Yeah, around here, it seems like every Tom, Dick, and Harry want a multi-button mouse. Not as many Mac users know WHY they are clamoring for multi-button mice, much less is their reasoning worth Apple even listening to. I said it before, and I'll say it again... if Apple had listened to everybody on these boards, they would have fallen apart in the first months of AppleInsider's existence.
I also question your huge generalization that NO PC users (95% of the computer user base) want a single-button mouse. Then again, how often do we ask people about these kinds of things?
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>Fire wire, great idea. Everybody wants it. Keep it up. GUI, great idea. Everybody needs it. Keep it up. Flat screens, great idea. Everybody loves them. Keep it up. Removal of the a: drive, the jury is still out on that one. The one button mouse, abysmal failure. Few people want it, nobody needs it, and most people hate it. Give it up. Enough already!</strong><hr></blockquote>
More generalizations... Few people want single-button mice, nobody needs single-button mice, and most people hate single button mice. You're on a roll. When did you start conducting polls? I'd like to examine whatever your methodology is that leaves you with this kind of conclusion.
unfortunatly, there is one little drawback: no way in hell for a left handed person to use one:/ but either way, i have one and personaly love it, the mouse fits your hand so perfectly and the placement of the buttons is just natural. and to those who complain about battery life, mine lasts 1-1 1/2 months on 2 AAs.
Yeah. Logitech make some good mice. I had my parents buy a 'cordless' one. Sexy. Nice. But you don't need the extra button or scroll wheel. What's more. They don't use it.
I think the whole 'more than one button' mouse idea is very PC. How do you explain it? The fact that you have to proves it's 'unMac' likeness.
Yeesh.
You need a 3 button mouse? What's the Mac keyboard for? Decoration? Considering there are that many keyboard shortcuts and modifer selections...then...why lumber that functionality onto a mouse? Where do you stop? (Mental picture of a whole keyboard worth of buttons on a mouse...ouch...ergonomic or what?)
In Photoshop on a Mac...I've never found a single button 'limiting'. The PC version? Never use a 'right click'. Mac and PC versions of Lightwave? Although I'm just into Lightwave, I don't see the need for right clicking there either... Some options in Truespace need 'right clicking' but I think they're pointless...an extra icon pop up or icon on the menu would suffice...
Single button is simple. Direct. The amount of times newbies right click...when they just want to select...it's confusing. I still find it confusing and I'm using the PC!
I rarely find myself using a 'right click' outside of Unreal Tourney (which could be done easily via keyboard...which I guess it does on the Mac version) or a 3D app...and rarely in said 3D app'... It's the fussy over complication which PC owners are 'proud' of.
<strong>What do you think of a wireless/remote control mouse that uses blue tooth for the mac? It can be used in two different ways either a remote control for presentations etc or as a regular mouse without the terrible wires <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
If nothing else, your reply was entertaining. I guess we will have to agree to disagree, whatever that means. You might be interested to know that it was several years after purchasing my first PC, (I'm a PC user not a Mac user. That's why my thinking is so unMac-like), before I understood the use of the second mouse button. No one ever explained it to me and I learned it by trial and error. However, once I understood it, I never looked back. I was never too stupid or confused to use the other button. I was just ignorant of its benefits.
There are many Mac users, and PC users for that matter who don't understand the benefits of the second button. If someone were to explain it to them then they would easily understand it. Please quit trying to paint the second mouse button as rocket science. It's not. Furthermore, I do not know of any experienced two button mouse jockeys who desire fewer buttons. I have not read any columns, Websites, or forums to this effect. Perhaps you can provide me with your evidence that most people who own two button mice don't use the second button. I am sure your superior research methods have produced some empirical evidence of that.
Tell me, why would I want to take my hand away from the mouse or hunt through menus just to go back or forward on the Web, add to my favorites, cut copy or paste, or any of the other tasks that are mindlessly accomplished with a multi button mouse. Perhaps you do not run you browser in full screen. This option is not available on the Mac in IE. I don't know about other browsers. I run almost all of my programs in full screen, which is to say, no on-screen buttons or menus. I personally need every inch of screen real-estate I can get. A second button on a mouse makes full screen operation effortless. No needlessly trying to remember countless built-in or third-party short cuts.
If you're happy with one button, more power to you. I curious though. How many of you experienced two button mouse users prefer using the one button mouse now that you own a Mac? How many of you long time Mac users wish you had more mouse functionality than what Apple seems to think you need?
Well I'm no pro, but the I prefer Apple's contextual menues with the one button better than the PC "spread over two buttons" interface. Holding down the button gives me plenty of options and I think is a more elegant design. More buttons are for pros with budget lines.
What I want is for Apple to re-define the scroll wheel like they redefined the mp3 player scroll-wheel on the iPod. Something that is smother, with variable speed and doesn't make your index finger feel like it has been grating cheese after 3+ hours of use...
...besides the thumb is just sitting there doing nothing! C'mon thumb, are you too good to do any work!?!? Put a little shuttle where the thumb should be (make one for lefties) and give the index finger a break from working two jobs.
Also a mouse with two optical sensors would be great to add yaw to image and game navigation.
<strong>Tell me, why would I want to take my hand away from the mouse or hunt through menus just to go back or forward on the Web, add to my favorites, cut copy or paste, or any of the other tasks that are mindlessly accomplished with a multi button mouse. Perhaps you do not run you browser in full screen. This option is not available on the Mac in IE. I don't know about other browsers. I run almost all of my programs in full screen, which is to say, no on-screen buttons or menus. I personally need every inch of screen real-estate I can get. A second button on a mouse makes full screen operation effortless. No needlessly trying to remember countless built-in or third-party short cuts.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ah, yes, the joys of getting around in Windows.
First, right-clicking is not mindless, certainly not more so than using the Mac's menu bar. In Windows, you have to aim for the per-window menus, which makes them a pain, but on the Mac it's a flick of the mouse up to the menu bar, which is always there, in the same place. You don't really have to aim, because the menu's at the top of the screen, so it's effectively infinitely high (this is known as Fitt's Law in UI circles). It's actually faster, once you're used to it, than the careful aiming required to get around in a contextual menu. But on those rare occasions when I do want one (usually while browsing), I just click-and-hold, and up pops a menu.
You also don't need to take your hand off the mouse for many of the most common keyboard shortcuts. There's always a command key nearby.
As for full screen mode, no, there's no analog on Mac OS. Oddly, I find myself using it a lot in Windows, which is not very efficient. But I've never missed it in Mac OS. The zoom box does fin when I need it to, which is not often.
only drawback is "I think" it uses a mouse ball when use on a flat surface...
but when you pick it up, it must be cool...
some specs:
[quote]
100-ft RF range with no line-of-sight limitations allows you to confidently roam around a room and interact with your audience.
*\tGyroTools presentation management software
*\tUse multiple units in the same room -- 8 channels and 16 addresses automatically available.
*\tEasy to install and use. Base plugs into serial or mouse port. No special drivers needed.
*\tStandby battery kit includes in-line charger that plugs into receiver cradle and spare NiMH battery pack (minimum 13 hours of continuous use, much longer with intermittent use)
*\tSupports DOS, Windows 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, ME, NT, XP and Mac OS 8 and above (with optional USB adapter)
Comments
<strong>My own theory about the one button mouse is simple pride and arrogance on Apples part. They will never admit defeat or that they were wrong about an interface idea. I'm glad they tried it. that shows inventiveness. The fact that they won't move on, however, shows blind stubbornness.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yup. And yup to most of the rest of it too!
The battery issues could be solved by using rechargeable batteries that would be charged with a USB cable connecting the mouse to the keyboard. The USB cable would also allow you to use the mouse at the same time. This procedure would be similar to the way the iPod charges.
[quote]...
Laptops have:
1 button
Most folks plug a mouse into their laptops anyhoo.<hr></blockquote>
I for once don't and I desperately want 2 buttons on the laptop itself. On desktops it doesn't matter since anyone can just throw the ugly black bulb in the trash bin and install a new mouse but you can't with a powerbook
There is no need for Apple to offer options for a single button mouse and a two button mouse w/ scroll wheel, that's ridiculous. Just because the mouse has two buttons doesn't mean all users MUST use both buttons (or the scroll wheel). Am I getting through any thick skulls here? Apple could even make a 6 button mouse with two scroll wheels, and the lunkheads here could happily go on using only ONE button! In other words, a two+ button mouse is compatible with both one button and >1 button users, but a single button mouse is not compatible with any users besides the one button mouse users.
In reality, after trying a two button mouse w/ scrollwheel, most people would never go back to a single button mouse. Some people even like more buttons, but I think two buttons (and the scroll wheel can also act as a button when pressed, for a total of three buttons) is a nice standard for now.
you get an Adobe-like grabbing hand. This beats the crap out of scroll wheels.
And its not in the PC versions
pres
Besides, it makes no sense for Apple to go two button. If they're going to go multibutton, they should have three. That's the standard for a UNIX workstation, and that's one of the ways they're selling OS X.
Two button mice would be a senseless compromise. Too much complexity, but not enough power.
I'd still prefer one button, unless Apple comes up with a radical rethinking of a multi-"button" mouse design. More complex mice are there for those who want them.
[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
People are not confused about using a 2nd button, they are confused about the existance of a 2nd button! Go and try to explain your grandmother about the 2nd button like I did. Most of you will understand afterwards.
About control-click. It is less confusing to many people, but who needs control-click at all? Pro users, no beginners. You can do almost every task without control-click or a 2nd button. And holding down the mouse button until the context menu opens is really easy.
To those guys, who don't care about the wishes and needs of people, who are satisfied with their one button mouse, why should they care about you and your wishes and needs? No offense, just a simple question.
If Apple releases a new Pro mouse with a scroll wheel and a second button, but working as good as the one button mouse, forget it. The Pro mouse is not a very good mouse and not worth their money. I need a mouse pad to work with the Pro mouse, that's really annoying.
cu
SC
I'd like to see a mouse similar in design to the current one (it shure looks good). but instead of a scrollwheel protruding through a hole i the "clickable area", as has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, i'd like to see one on each side. they'd be connected through an axis, so you can't confuse the 'puter by turning them both in opposite directions simultaneously.
it would retain the ergonomic advantage of one big button in the middle. The wheels would be sort of on the fat side, and clickable, acting as a second button. they would both have the same effect, so lefties wouldn't have to remap. there would also be a couple of combinations that could be exploited by certain apps, such as clicking both wheels simultaneously or wheel + button.
[ 04-20-2002: Message edited by: LowB-ing ]</p>
The personal computer is not a toaster! It requires a learning curve! You have to meet some bare minimum intellectual requirements to operate one. Those people who can't figure out how to use a two button mouse probably still have 12:00 flashing on their microwave and VCR. Should we remove the clocks because some people can't figure out how to set them? In what way is option click or click and hold easier or more understandable than right clicking. To suggest that those methods are more user-friendly and simpler to learn is not being intellectually honest.
Finally, why should Apple care about the needs and desires of two button mousers? Because we make up more than 95% of the market. Consider. How many Mac users are clamoring for a two button mouse? Many. How many PC users are clamoring for a one button mouse? None.
Fire wire, great idea. Everybody wants it. Keep it up. GUI, great idea. Everybody needs it. Keep it up. Flat screens, great idea. Everybody loves them. Keep it up. Removal of the a: drive, the jury is still out on that one. The one button mouse, abysmal failure. Few people want it, nobody needs it, and most people hate it. Give it up. Enough already!
Can't think how they'd do the same for the mouse but it could work for the keyboard.
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: iHobbit ]</p>
<strong>I fail to see the complexity of a multi button mouse.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How can you fail to see the difference in complexity? We aren't arguing about cars, but wouldn't you say that a car with a single steering wheel is significantly less complex than one with two steering wheels? Three? Five?
Yes. One steering wheel is the least complex of the above. Remember this, it will be important later.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>I doesn't have to just be 2 buttons. My mouse uses 5 + scroll. the buttons are "back", "forward", "select", "context", and the scroll button can be programmed to do a variety of tasks such as task switching.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's wonderful for you. Some video editing people use a small device that probably has a dozen buttons on it. There are sound-editing devices that have dozens of sliders, buttons, and switches on them. More than likely, there is a device in front of you with a number of buttons that you press that each have functions, like telling the computer to print certain letters, numbers, and symbols on screen, combining with them to trigger actions, or to navigate onscreen. It can also be used to modify what functional type of "clicking" you are doing, such as a control-click (right click), command-click, or option-click. You may even have one of these devices that controls screen brightness, volume, or ejects CDs! It does a pretty good job of that, wouldn't you say?
Let's look at the mouse, now. It's meant to be a physical mode of controlling and representing the cursor onscreen. Since your screen is meant to be a flat representation of your desk, there needs to be a way to "grab" on to things or select others, thus, a click and the click-drag action. If a document or interface is larger than your onscreen "desk," there are arrows you can click to "scroll" up and down, like unwrapping a real scroll. There are numerous usability enhancements beyond that, including keyboard shortcuts for every kind of scrolling you could want to do. Some mice even have small wheels that scroll, which are a decent idea as even with these interface enhancements, scrolling for long periods of time can show that mice and keyboards are not suited for such things.
I can see the need for a scroll wheel; I love mine. I also have a 3-button mouse, but I very seldom use the buttons, and even more seldom do I encounter a need. Whenever I do encounter a need, software anticipates that need, so I don't have to use it. When I do, I can always click-hold for a menu, or control-click to immediately get a menu. There are even preferences, hacks, third party software packages, and other add-ons, I can install to enhance these abilities to suit any niche needs I might have (I suggest you research these options).
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>As far as explaining it to grandma, try explaining the terminal or permissions to grandma. Try explaining the difference between the option key and the command key and all those function buttons 1-12 on the keyboard. </strong><hr></blockquote>
The terminal explanation would be pretty easy... it's a way of navigating/editing files and folders, as well as accessing text-only or very old/arcane applications. I'm sure she wouldn't be interested much, but could understand that the command-line interface was a precursor to the visual interface (with some explanation).
Permissions would be pretty obvious too. What users can read, edit, move, delete, etc files and folders.
Command key, for commands. Option key, for different "options" as far as strange characters/symbols, and commands. Function keys, press them, and they can do a function assigned to them a lot easier than clicking and dragging and typing and whatnot.
My grandma isn't a computer geek, but has a basic understanding of files and clicking and typing. I don't see at all why she wouldn't understand these things. Of course, having a basic concept understanding is far different from being interested, caring, or having a need/desire to USE these things.
If I tried to explain to her the different kinds of mouse buttons, I can already envision her asking why that is even necessary. Why can't those things be in a menu at the top of the screen, or pop up automatically, or why can't the keyboard be used like with a key command? Why are the things in a pop-up contextual menu necessary? What is that second, third, fourth, fifth button doing for her?
I don't know what I would say to her. "It's just an old, quick solution to a stupid design problem that people have ignored," maybe.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>The personal computer is not a toaster! It requires a learning curve!</strong><hr></blockquote>
This strikes me as being a very un-Mac-like thing to say. Perhaps you should reconsider your platform, or at least stop preaching what you know Apple should do.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>You have to meet some bare minimum intellectual requirements to operate one.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, one does require some bare minimum intellectual requirements.. But there is a large difference between "bare minimum intellectual requirements" to operate computers, and the NEED/desire to have multiple mouse buttons on them.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong> Those people who can't figure out how to use a two button mouse probably still have 12:00 flashing on their microwave and VCR. Should we remove the clocks because some people can't figure out how to set them?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, but does that mean we should just continue to accept flashing 12:00 on our VCR clocks? How about we make it EASIER to change that, how about we make smart VCRs? How about VCRs that never need to be set? How about VCRs that set themselves? And check themselves to be correct? How about VCRs that cooperate with all of our components to ensure we've got the correct timing going, eh?
That's what we call forward thinking. More buttons to clutter up our pointing devices, is not.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong> In what way is option click or click and hold easier or more understandable than right clicking. To suggest that those methods are more user-friendly and simpler to learn is not being intellectually honest. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Click-hold is just as logical as go-to-the-top-of-the-screen-where-you-see-words-and-click, also known as using the Apple or File or whatever menu. If you want to get an idea of how stupid some of us see a second or third or 17th mouse button as being, imagine if Apple 'pioneered' a special mouse with a button whose use is for clicking menus at the top of the screen? Why the hell does anyone need it? The only reason would be that it's too hard to navigate to the top of the screen and click a menu, which isn't an issue, but could be--and if it were--that would just be a stupid, backwards, temporary solution to a BAD metaphor design.
"It's too hard for me to reach all the way over to the other side of my desk to reach my pencil jar when I'm drawing. I'll just grow another arm, instead of moving the pencil jar!"
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>Finally, why should Apple care about the needs and desires of two button mousers? Because we make up more than 95% of the market. Consider. How many Mac users are clamoring for a two button mouse? Many. How many PC users are clamoring for a one button mouse? None. </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is really the stupidest chunk of crock I've read yet. I'm sorry, but it really is.
You mean to state that (1) users of two-button mice (2) make up 95% of the (3) market. I've enumerated the problems with this. First (1), having a two-button mouse does not mean you are a USER of a two-button mouse, more specifically it does not mean you use more than one button of it. Even if you DO count those who use the second buttons of their mice, there is no way you can just state that you know people like it, and simply because people do something does not make it right or in any way correct (or in their own best interest). Secondly, (2), keeping the above statement in mind, the true USERS of two-button mice who need/desire to continue using their multi-button mice do not make up 95% of computer users... more than likely, it's abysmally less. IMHO, the people who need multiple buttons are in such a small niche that even if Apple were considering and willing to support them, it would not prove nearly worthwhile enough to do so. Lastly (3), the established computer-using base of the world is different than the MARKET. Yes, most computer owners are going to be repeat customers because of the endless pace of technology, but considering that only 54% of American homes have personal computers, there is a LOT of market out there, and a significant portion of them are inexperienced (after all, how could you get experience if you didn't already have a computer or use one elsewhere?). There is no secret that for beginners or inexperienced, simplicity and non-complexity is the winner. Apple knows this. It's obvious. Even for computer gurus, they're smart enough to know that one button is just good design. No buttons to add, no buttons to remove. (Of course, Apple COULD implement a scroll wheel. IMHO.
Yeah, around here, it seems like every Tom, Dick, and Harry want a multi-button mouse. Not as many Mac users know WHY they are clamoring for multi-button mice, much less is their reasoning worth Apple even listening to. I said it before, and I'll say it again... if Apple had listened to everybody on these boards, they would have fallen apart in the first months of AppleInsider's existence.
I also question your huge generalization that NO PC users (95% of the computer user base) want a single-button mouse. Then again, how often do we ask people about these kinds of things?
[quote]Originally posted by Mac Voyer:
<strong>Fire wire, great idea. Everybody wants it. Keep it up. GUI, great idea. Everybody needs it. Keep it up. Flat screens, great idea. Everybody loves them. Keep it up. Removal of the a: drive, the jury is still out on that one. The one button mouse, abysmal failure. Few people want it, nobody needs it, and most people hate it. Give it up. Enough already!</strong><hr></blockquote>
More generalizations... Few people want single-button mice, nobody needs single-button mice, and most people hate single button mice. You're on a roll. When did you start conducting polls? I'd like to examine whatever your methodology is that leaves you with this kind of conclusion.
unfortunatly, there is one little drawback: no way in hell for a left handed person to use one:/ but either way, i have one and personaly love it, the mouse fits your hand so perfectly and the placement of the buttons is just natural. and to those who complain about battery life, mine lasts 1-1 1/2 months on 2 AAs.
dammit, i feel like im doing a commercial here 8D
I think the whole 'more than one button' mouse idea is very PC. How do you explain it? The fact that you have to proves it's 'unMac' likeness.
Yeesh.
You need a 3 button mouse? What's the Mac keyboard for? Decoration? Considering there are that many keyboard shortcuts and modifer selections...then...why lumber that functionality onto a mouse? Where do you stop? (Mental picture of a whole keyboard worth of buttons on a mouse...ouch...ergonomic or what?)
In Photoshop on a Mac...I've never found a single button 'limiting'. The PC version? Never use a 'right click'. Mac and PC versions of Lightwave? Although I'm just into Lightwave, I don't see the need for right clicking there either... Some options in Truespace need 'right clicking' but I think they're pointless...an extra icon pop up or icon on the menu would suffice...
Single button is simple. Direct. The amount of times newbies right click...when they just want to select...it's confusing. I still find it confusing and I'm using the PC!
I rarely find myself using a 'right click' outside of Unreal Tourney (which could be done easily via keyboard...which I guess it does on the Mac version) or a 3D app...and rarely in said 3D app'... It's the fussy over complication which PC owners are 'proud' of.
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Simple. I want extra functionality? I use the keyboard which has nigh on a hundred keys? (Haven't counted...)
So what's with the 'right click'?
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>What do you think of a wireless/remote control mouse that uses blue tooth for the mac? It can be used in two different ways either a remote control for presentations etc or as a regular mouse without the terrible wires
<strong>has anyone ever tried holding down command while using Internet Explorer 5 or X?
you get an Adobe-like grabbing hand. This beats the crap out of scroll wheels.
And its not in the PC versions
pres</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's also available in the Finder when using list view - in Mac OS X you have to press cmd-opt though.
If nothing else, your reply was entertaining. I guess we will have to agree to disagree, whatever that means. You might be interested to know that it was several years after purchasing my first PC, (I'm a PC user not a Mac user. That's why my thinking is so unMac-like), before I understood the use of the second mouse button. No one ever explained it to me and I learned it by trial and error. However, once I understood it, I never looked back. I was never too stupid or confused to use the other button. I was just ignorant of its benefits.
There are many Mac users, and PC users for that matter who don't understand the benefits of the second button. If someone were to explain it to them then they would easily understand it. Please quit trying to paint the second mouse button as rocket science. It's not. Furthermore, I do not know of any experienced two button mouse jockeys who desire fewer buttons. I have not read any columns, Websites, or forums to this effect. Perhaps you can provide me with your evidence that most people who own two button mice don't use the second button. I am sure your superior research methods have produced some empirical evidence of that.
Tell me, why would I want to take my hand away from the mouse or hunt through menus just to go back or forward on the Web, add to my favorites, cut copy or paste, or any of the other tasks that are mindlessly accomplished with a multi button mouse. Perhaps you do not run you browser in full screen. This option is not available on the Mac in IE. I don't know about other browsers. I run almost all of my programs in full screen, which is to say, no on-screen buttons or menus. I personally need every inch of screen real-estate I can get. A second button on a mouse makes full screen operation effortless. No needlessly trying to remember countless built-in or third-party short cuts.
If you're happy with one button, more power to you. I curious though. How many of you experienced two button mouse users prefer using the one button mouse now that you own a Mac? How many of you long time Mac users wish you had more mouse functionality than what Apple seems to think you need?
Got to run for now.
Live long and prosper
What I want is for Apple to re-define the scroll wheel like they redefined the mp3 player scroll-wheel on the iPod. Something that is smother, with variable speed and doesn't make your index finger feel like it has been grating cheese after 3+ hours of use...
...besides the thumb is just sitting there doing nothing! C'mon thumb, are you too good to do any work!?!? Put a little shuttle where the thumb should be (make one for lefties) and give the index finger a break from working two jobs.
Also a mouse with two optical sensors would be great to add yaw to image and game navigation.
Mac Voyeur wrote:
<strong>Tell me, why would I want to take my hand away from the mouse or hunt through menus just to go back or forward on the Web, add to my favorites, cut copy or paste, or any of the other tasks that are mindlessly accomplished with a multi button mouse. Perhaps you do not run you browser in full screen. This option is not available on the Mac in IE. I don't know about other browsers. I run almost all of my programs in full screen, which is to say, no on-screen buttons or menus. I personally need every inch of screen real-estate I can get. A second button on a mouse makes full screen operation effortless. No needlessly trying to remember countless built-in or third-party short cuts.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ah, yes, the joys of getting around in Windows.
First, right-clicking is not mindless, certainly not more so than using the Mac's menu bar. In Windows, you have to aim for the per-window menus, which makes them a pain, but on the Mac it's a flick of the mouse up to the menu bar, which is always there, in the same place. You don't really have to aim, because the menu's at the top of the screen, so it's effectively infinitely high (this is known as Fitt's Law in UI circles). It's actually faster, once you're used to it, than the careful aiming required to get around in a contextual menu. But on those rare occasions when I do want one (usually while browsing), I just click-and-hold, and up pops a menu.
You also don't need to take your hand off the mouse for many of the most common keyboard shortcuts. There's always a command key nearby.
As for full screen mode, no, there's no analog on Mac OS. Oddly, I find myself using it a lot in Windows, which is not very efficient. But I've never missed it in Mac OS. The zoom box does fin when I need it to, which is not often.
<a href="http://www.gyration.com/gyromouse.htm"; target="_blank">
only drawback is "I think" it uses a mouse ball when use on a flat surface...
but when you pick it up, it must be cool...
some specs:
[quote]
100-ft RF range with no line-of-sight limitations allows you to confidently roam around a room and interact with your audience.
*\tGyroTools presentation management software
*\tUse multiple units in the same room -- 8 channels and 16 addresses automatically available.
*\tEasy to install and use. Base plugs into serial or mouse port. No special drivers needed.
*\tStandby battery kit includes in-line charger that plugs into receiver cradle and spare NiMH battery pack (minimum 13 hours of continuous use, much longer with intermittent use)
*\tSupports DOS, Windows 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, ME, NT, XP and Mac OS 8 and above (with optional USB adapter)
<hr></blockquote>
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© FERRO 2001-2002
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: FERRO ]</p>