Apple could be the next target of China's push to get more data stored locally

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 58
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    Get a clue. In this case their ‘customers’ are Chinese users, who already have no privacy. So what’s your problem? There is no poison pill for Apple to swallow. If you think there is an ethical lapse and hypocrisy here then stop doing business with the company to protest. But I bet you won’t do that, will you.
    Why do you sound so angry? Why make it even easier for the government to spy on it’s citizens? I feel very conflicted over what Apple should do, but these laws are very bad for the Chinese people.
    Give me a break! FBI does not spy on US citizens? 
    Why do you need a break?  I doubt anyone here is a fan of the FBI doing any spying either.
    US Congress and the free world do not try to stop FBI. The question is spying wrong? You try to dodge the fundamental question by focusing only on China. 
    I didn't dodge anything.  I don't like spying, and the FBI, CIA et al can fuck off.  Likewise China.

    But Apple don't aid the FBI and CIA in routine surveillance of anyone and everyone; they only respond to court ordered warrants.
    Because US laws allow Apple to do that. Google collaborated with US agencies secretly. No one dare to question that. Every site I visited was cached by Google. But I have no interest in terrorist activity. Google has algorithms to detect terrorism. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 22 of 58
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 23 of 58
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,082member
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    You said crime, not homicide.
  • Reply 24 of 58
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    You said crime, not homicide.
    This is equivalent to incarnation rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 25 of 58
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    Get a clue. In this case their ‘customers’ are Chinese users, who already have no privacy. So what’s your problem? There is no poison pill for Apple to swallow. If you think there is an ethical lapse and hypocrisy here then stop doing business with the company to protest. But I bet you won’t do that, will you.
    Why do you sound so angry? Why make it even easier for the government to spy on it’s citizens? I feel very conflicted over what Apple should do, but these laws are very bad for the Chinese people.
    Give me a break! FBI does not spy on US citizens? 
    No where even close to the same thing. The FBI does not do mass spying where the vast majority of U.S. citizens are being spied on in the same way as in China. We have freedom of speech, freedom to assemble, etc. The FBI only cares if we are committing a real crime like murder, robbery, assault, etc. In China they want to control every aspect of their lives. 
  • Reply 26 of 58
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    Get a clue. In this case their ‘customers’ are Chinese users, who already have no privacy. So what’s your problem? There is no poison pill for Apple to swallow. If you think there is an ethical lapse and hypocrisy here then stop doing business with the company to protest. But I bet you won’t do that, will you.
    Why do you sound so angry? Why make it even easier for the government to spy on it’s citizens? I feel very conflicted over what Apple should do, but these laws are very bad for the Chinese people.
    Give me a break! FBI does not spy on US citizens? 
    No where even close to the same thing. The FBI does not do mass spying where the vast majority of U.S. citizens are being spied on in the same way as in China. We have freedom of speech, freedom to assemble, etc. The FBI only cares if we are committing a real crime like murder, robbery, assault, etc. In China they want to control every aspect of their lives. 
    Not true. FBI stores spying in a database. FBI also monitors terrorism. You failed to list it. 
  • Reply 27 of 58
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,082member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    You said crime, not homicide.
    This is equivalent to incarnation rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
    No, crime is definitely not equivalent to incarceration rate.  Stop making things up.
    edited October 21
  • Reply 28 of 58
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    You said crime, not homicide.
    This is equivalent to incarnation rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
    No, crime is definitely not equivalent to incarceration rate.  Stop making things up.
    Without incarceration you cannot prove a person committed a crime. 
  • Reply 29 of 58
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,082member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    You said crime, not homicide.
    This is equivalent to incarnation rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
    No, crime is definitely not equivalent to incarceration rate.  Stop making things up.
    Without incarceration you cannot prove a person committed a crime. 
    Not even slightly true.
    robaba
  • Reply 30 of 58
    JapheyJaphey Posts: 981member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    You said crime, not homicide.
    This is equivalent to incarnation rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
    No, crime is definitely not equivalent to incarceration rate.  Stop making things up.
    Without incarceration you cannot prove a person committed a crime. 
    Not even slightly true.
    Why are you encouraging him? If we all ignore him, maybe he’ll just go away. 

    I know you and I have battled in the past, but I’ve agreed with everything you’ve said to him all day, even if the evidence has been deleted forever. We both know what he is really trying to do here. 
    edited October 21 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 31 of 58
    It is funny that China is talking about protection for the chinese citizens while actually the chinese citizens should be protected from their tyrant government. I am an expat in China and if I realize my data is being stored in China, I throw my phone away in the same second, I even don't care about the money I spent on the hardware.
  • Reply 32 of 58
    New Chinese regulations that would require Apple to store more user data locally in the country will soon put the company in a tough spot as it navigates competing interests.

    Read on AppleInsider
    It's not a tough spot for them at all.  They've repeatedly stated their intent, and demonstrated their willingness, to comply with "local laws and regulations".  What makes anyone think they won't comply with these?
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 33 of 58
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    Good lord, even if he WERE true....the implications of his statement are shocking. 
  • Reply 34 of 58
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,684member
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    Get a clue. In this case their ‘customers’ are Chinese users, who already have no privacy. So what’s your problem? There is no poison pill for Apple to swallow. If you think there is an ethical lapse and hypocrisy here then stop doing business with the company to protest. But I bet you won’t do that, will you.
    Why do you sound so angry? Why make it even easier for the government to spy on it’s citizens? I feel very conflicted over what Apple should do, but these laws are very bad for the Chinese people.
    Give me a break! FBI does not spy on US citizens? 
    No where even close to the same thing. The FBI does not do mass spying where the vast majority of U.S. citizens are being spied on ....
    True!  But then the FBI doesn't have to.  the NSA performs that function

  • Reply 35 of 58
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,684member
    Japhey said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    You said crime, not homicide.
    This is equivalent to incarnation rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
    No, crime is definitely not equivalent to incarceration rate.  Stop making things up.
    Without incarceration you cannot prove a person committed a crime. 
    Not even slightly true.
    Why are you encouraging him? If we all ignore him, maybe he’ll just go away. 

    I know you and I have battled in the past, but I’ve agreed with everything you’ve said to him all day, even if the evidence has been deleted forever. We both know what he is really trying to do here. 

    Yeh, it's called "Truth".   You should try it!  You might like it!
  • Reply 36 of 58
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,082member
    Japhey said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    You said crime, not homicide.
    This is equivalent to incarnation rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
    No, crime is definitely not equivalent to incarceration rate.  Stop making things up.
    Without incarceration you cannot prove a person committed a crime. 
    Not even slightly true.
    Why are you encouraging him? If we all ignore him, maybe he’ll just go away. 

    I know you and I have battled in the past, but I’ve agreed with everything you’ve said to him all day, even if the evidence has been deleted forever. We both know what he is really trying to do here. 

    Yeh, it's called "Truth".   You should try it!  You might like it!
    You think it's true that the USA has the highest crime rate in the world?

    Or that the crime rate is the same as the incarceration rate?

    Or that incarceration is the only proof that a person committed a crime?


    I know he's your little buddy in support for the PRC but take a nap and think on what unflinching loyalty is doing to you.
    edited October 22 muthuk_vanalingamtmayrobaba
  • Reply 37 of 58
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,684member
    crowley said:
    Japhey said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    You said crime, not homicide.
    This is equivalent to incarnation rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
    No, crime is definitely not equivalent to incarceration rate.  Stop making things up.
    Without incarceration you cannot prove a person committed a crime. 
    Not even slightly true.
    Why are you encouraging him? If we all ignore him, maybe he’ll just go away. 

    I know you and I have battled in the past, but I’ve agreed with everything you’ve said to him all day, even if the evidence has been deleted forever. We both know what he is really trying to do here. 

    Yeh, it's called "Truth".   You should try it!  You might like it!
    You think it's true that the USA has the highest crime rate in the world?

    Or that the crime rate is the same as the incarceration rate?

    Or that incarceration is the only proof that a person committed a crime?


    I know he's your little buddy in support for the PRC but take a nap and think on what unflinching loyalty is doing to you.

    LOL... So that's your best rebuttal?   Ignoring the point that he made, twisting things and playing little semantic games?
    ... Weak...  
    edited October 22
  • Reply 38 of 58
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,048member
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    Get a clue. In this case their ‘customers’ are Chinese users, who already have no privacy. So what’s your problem? There is no poison pill for Apple to swallow. If you think there is an ethical lapse and hypocrisy here then stop doing business with the company to protest. But I bet you won’t do that, will you.
    Why do you sound so angry? Why make it even easier for the government to spy on it’s citizens? I feel very conflicted over what Apple should do, but these laws are very bad for the Chinese people.
    Give me a break! FBI does not spy on US citizens? 
    No where even close to the same thing. The FBI does not do mass spying where the vast majority of U.S. citizens are being spied on in the same way as in China. We have freedom of speech, freedom to assemble, etc. The FBI only cares if we are committing a real crime like murder, robbery, assault, etc. In China they want to control every aspect of their lives. 
    Not true. FBI stores spying in a database. FBI also monitors terrorism. You failed to list it. 
    You should not be so naive about how the rest of the world’s governments behave.  The FBI does all sorts of stuff I don’t particularly like or approve of.  But much of the rest of the world’s enforcement agencies have substantially broader powers within their respective countries.
    tmay
  • Reply 39 of 58
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,684member
    JWSC said:
    lkrupp said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    Get a clue. In this case their ‘customers’ are Chinese users, who already have no privacy. So what’s your problem? There is no poison pill for Apple to swallow. If you think there is an ethical lapse and hypocrisy here then stop doing business with the company to protest. But I bet you won’t do that, will you.
    Why do you sound so angry? Why make it even easier for the government to spy on it’s citizens? I feel very conflicted over what Apple should do, but these laws are very bad for the Chinese people.
    Give me a break! FBI does not spy on US citizens? 
    No where even close to the same thing. The FBI does not do mass spying where the vast majority of U.S. citizens are being spied on in the same way as in China. We have freedom of speech, freedom to assemble, etc. The FBI only cares if we are committing a real crime like murder, robbery, assault, etc. In China they want to control every aspect of their lives. 
    Not true. FBI stores spying in a database. FBI also monitors terrorism. You failed to list it. 
    You should not be so naive about how the rest of the world’s governments behave.  The FBI does all sorts of stuff I don’t particularly like or approve of.  But much of the rest of the world’s enforcement agencies have substantially broader powers within their respective countries.

    Yeh, that's a good point.  But then the FBI doesn't need to do a lot of that stuff and has guardrails around it.  But, then we have the NSA to do that.

    But, it is crazy try to claim that one country is good and the other bad in terms of spying.  It's a race to the bottom.  Probably the only one NOT doing it is Haiti -- but only because they can't.
  • Reply 40 of 58
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,684member
    crowley said:
    Japhey said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    tylersdad said:
    Which poison pill will Apple swallow? Will they aid the Chinese authoritarian regime and protect their profits from China? Or will they protect their customers from the authoritarian regime? 

    I have a feeling it's the first option that Apple will choose. 
    How about Ford? Samsung? How about Microsoft? Are you recommending that companies ignore local laws? I'm all for a single international government, but something tells me you just want things different ways on different days. A multinational company has no ability to ignore local/national laws. Just as a British company doing business in the US has to follow US Laws.

    I don't have an answer here except that in the future this will be a huge issue. Cars will have nav and communication, as will TV's and glasses and coats. 'Data' and all it has grown to encapsulate will only get to be a bigger part of every companies business. So do US companies just ignore the rest of the world when they hit a national law that goes against, well, what exactly? My idea of 'freedom'? Texas' idea of freedom? It's a much more complicated and nuanced issue I think. US businesses wouldn't do well if we decide to ignore every country that has onerous laws. I think everyone happily sells in Saudi Arabia, not even close to being a bastion of freedom. Again, I don't have the answer but it's silly to put this down to 'profit or capitulation' as I'm not even sure exactly what laws in other countries you don't like.
    I’m not sure why you are equating British, EU, US, or other Western countries’ laws with China. And this has nothing to do with China being a communist country. It is a surveillance state that allows zero political dissent, and the people have no say in how they are governed. Why encourage this? 
    US has highest crime rate in the world, much higher than China. This is the tradeoff. 
    Stop pulling "facts" out of your ass: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/crime-rate-by-country
    US homicide victims per 100,000 inhabitants is 4.96. China is 0.53. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
    You said crime, not homicide.
    This is equivalent to incarnation rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
    No, crime is definitely not equivalent to incarceration rate.  Stop making things up.
    Without incarceration you cannot prove a person committed a crime. 
    Not even slightly true.
    Why are you encouraging him? If we all ignore him, maybe he’ll just go away. 

    I know you and I have battled in the past, but I’ve agreed with everything you’ve said to him all day, even if the evidence has been deleted forever. We both know what he is really trying to do here. 

    Yeh, it's called "Truth".   You should try it!  You might like it!
    You think it's true that the USA has the highest crime rate in the world?

    Or that the crime rate is the same as the incarceration rate?

    Or that incarceration is the only proof that a person committed a crime?


    I know he's your little buddy in support for the PRC but take a nap and think on what unflinching loyalty is doing to you.

    LOL... So that's your best rebuttal?   Ignoring the point that he made, twisting things and playing little semantic games?
    ... Weak...  
    You are right! He plays semantic games. He ignores I said US crime rate is much higher than China. This is main argument because he likes to bash China for his hatred. 

    Yes, true.   He starts with the hatred then will do or say anything to justify it and defend it.

    It's the mark of brainwashed extremists everywhere and from every political side and every religion.  They aren't interested in truth, justice or fairness or even right & wrong.  They are only interested in pushing their agenda and getting others to support their ideology, theology or dogma.  It's their mission.  It's their war.

    He sees any criticism of the U.S. no matter how true or justified as an attack.   Likewise he sees any defense of China, no matter how true or justified, also as an attack.
    Likewise, he sees anybody who hates China as a good guy and anybody who doesn't as a bad guy.  In his world there is no middle ground:  You either hate China or you love it.

    It demonstrates the power of propaganda on an otherwise intelligent brain.

    At one time in the U.S. broadcast news services had to adhere to standards of truth and ethics.  But cable news eliminated that and propagated channels devoted to one sided hate and divided the nation against itself as either far left or far right (even though the nation tends to stay in the middle).  Then came social media which piled on and took those divisions and isolated each faction into its own camp only hearing what their masters want them to hear. 

    The result is that the followers both on the far left as well as the far right became cult like -- and defend the propaganda as real and when it is criticized call it:  "free speech". 

    But, just as the founders never anticipated military grade assault weapons giving a single deranged person the ability to kill hundreds in minutes, they never anticipated cable news or social media being used to radicalize the country against itself. 
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