The new MacBook Pro: Why did Apple backtrack on everything?

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  • Reply 61 of 173
    I capture screen shots often. The new function keys should make this task easier. I never use the esc key, I do not know when it is needed. 

    The escape key is quite useful. You're missing out on a lot. For instance, how would you force quit a hung application without command-option-ESC? Go through the hassle of opening Activity Monitor first? It's also good for stopping web pages from loading without resorting to the X button. And most of all, virtually all dialog boxes accept ESC as cancel. I'm guessing you're a mouse-only person who doesn't like keyboard shortcuts.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 62 of 173
    I capture screen shots often. The new function keys should make this task easier. I never use the esc key, I do not know when it is needed. 

    The escape key is quite useful. You're missing out on a lot. For instance, how would you force quit a hung application without command-option-ESC? Go through the hassle of opening Activity Monitor first? It's also good for stopping web pages from loading without resorting to the X button. And most of all, virtually all dialog boxes accept ESC as cancel. I'm guessing you're a mouse-only person who doesn't like keyboard shortcuts.
    I force quit application very often. In the apple menu, the keyboard equivalent of force quit is not the ESC key. The cancel function seems very useful. I will try that. Maybe my ESC is not working? 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 63 of 173
    tundraboy said:
    This has nothing to do with Jony Ive. Intel forced Apple to go minimalistic because of the generous heat it produces. Give it more enclosure it would retain more heat. Now that Intel has gone, with Apple Silicon you can make it as large as you want because the heat is minimal.
    You have it backwards.  You're confusing heat with temperature.  If you go minimalistic on a device that generates a lot of heat, that heat will be 'concentrated' on a smaller volume, causing temperature to be higher, and it is temperature that damages internal components.  The key is to think in terms of heat dissipation not heat retention.  A larger enclosed volume (all other things equal) would have better heat dissipation especially if a lot of that enclosed volume is empty space that can be used for airflow to cool the internal components.
    This is the metal mass that retains heat the most not the air that flows over or in it. Besides, the air flows only from the processor to the heat sink by means of a pipe and the fan, the flow is constrained to the pipe. There is no air "moving freely" in a larger enclosure. Since the air flows only from the processor to the sink, it has no (or minimal) effect on the overall cooldown of the enclosure. To make it cool down faster, you have to make it smaller so that it retains less heat and dissipates it faster. That "cooling air in a larger enclosure" is an urban legend. There is no such thing.
    edited November 2021
  • Reply 64 of 173
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    I capture screen shots often. The new function keys should make this task easier. I never use the esc key, I do not know when it is needed. 

    The escape key is quite useful. You're missing out on a lot. For instance, how would you force quit a hung application without command-option-ESC? Go through the hassle of opening Activity Monitor first? It's also good for stopping web pages from loading without resorting to the X button. And most of all, virtually all dialog boxes accept ESC as cancel. I'm guessing you're a mouse-only person who doesn't like keyboard shortcuts.
    I force quit application very often. In the apple menu, the keyboard equivalent of force quit is not the ESC key.
    Yes it is.  The shortcut is ⌘ ⌥ ⎋, command + option + escape.

    https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201276
    edited November 2021 waveparticlePShimi
  • Reply 65 of 173
    They didn't backtrack on everything.  They have not reintroduced the light up apple logo...yet.
    GeorgeBMac9secondkox2danox
  • Reply 66 of 173
    thttht Posts: 5,421member
    Ostensibly, there are lot of macOS users using the MBP in STEM who spend a lot of time in the Unix CLI interface. One of the primary text editors is VIM, and the escape key is used in VIM about as much as the "e" key is. But there is an escape key in the touch bar. I didn't have any problems with the escape key in the Touch Bar, but there probably a lot of people who didn't like the feedback-less Touch Bar buttons. Apple should have made sound effects for touch bar buttons to provide some form of feedback.

    The Touch Bar is an interesting idea, but Apple's thoughts on who would use it were wrong, and it was too small to begin with. It would have been most useful for people who buy the MBA and use the laptop keyboard all the time. Having the dialog buttons there was great. But it never made it to the MBA. With the MBP, a large fraction of users have it connected to an external monitor and external keyboards, and rarely if ever use it, and the apps that drive MBP sales never really made use of it.

    Then, the Touch Bar area would get hot to the touch. I have the 2018 MBP15 model and when connected to an external monitor in a 78° room, it got too hot to type on. In a 72° room, it was fine. That 6° F made a huge difference in comfort.

    It really should have been at least a full key height, instead of half. If so, they could have added labels to buttons to make it easier to understand the iconography. It should have had sound effects to indicate a key was hit. And, they should have let developers play with it instead of limiting it to buttons.

    It a lot of ways, the Touch Bar was a microcosm of what went wrong with Macs from 2012 to 2018 or so. A lot of things were tried, but were done poorly and they failed. If they made it say 2 keys high, 1.5", it would been really interesting. Dials, piano keys, sliders, strings, status, all kinds of interesting controls and information could be there. But, a lot of people use their laptops docked. To have it really pay off, they need to have an external keyboard with the same functionality. Then, with Intel CPUs and dGPUs, not sure what can really be done to minimize the temperatures of the touch surfaces of laptops.

    I'd like them to try a lot of UI things involving keyboards, on both sides of the spectrum. Have a laptop where the input device is an iPad-like device with software keyboards, trackpads, and anything else software to have full-on mechanical keyboards with 5 mm of travel.

    PShimi
  • Reply 67 of 173
    crowley said:
    I capture screen shots often. The new function keys should make this task easier. I never use the esc key, I do not know when it is needed. 

    The escape key is quite useful. You're missing out on a lot. For instance, how would you force quit a hung application without command-option-ESC? Go through the hassle of opening Activity Monitor first? It's also good for stopping web pages from loading without resorting to the X button. And most of all, virtually all dialog boxes accept ESC as cancel. I'm guessing you're a mouse-only person who doesn't like keyboard shortcuts.
    I force quit application very often. In the apple menu, the keyboard equivalent of force quit is not the ESC key.
    Yes it is.  The shortcut is ⌘ ⌥ ⎋, command + option + escape.

    https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201276
    OK Thanks . 
  • Reply 68 of 173
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,278member
    MplsP said:
    dewme said:
    The Touch Bar always struck me as a solution in search of a problem. Without widespread adoption across a majority of apps it wasn’t going anywhere. 

    It’s not like I’m in love with hardware function keys either. There are only a couple of apps that have ingrained their use of function keys into my muscle memory. Other than those rare cases I rarely touch any of the other function keys. 

    The Escape key on the other hand is permanently burned into muscle memory. Losing the Escape key would be like losing a body appendage. 

    I guess I’m saying that I see function keys (other than Escape) as a vestigial keyboard artifact that’s survived from the CPM, DOS, and VT220 terminal days. If they went away I wouldn’t miss them very much. When the Touch Bar came along and didn’t  really add any more universal utility than something I’m willing to live without … I’m not going to miss it either, despite the fact that it was kind of flashy and cool. 

    I admire Apple for trying to put that chunk of keyboard real estate to better use, but it was an experiment that didn’t succeed. Going back to the legacy hardware keys was a safe and non controversial move until they come up with another approach, or just punt on the whole concept for the foreseeable future. 
    Agreed - it was never even fully supported on all the laptops, much less on desktops. What was a developer supposed to do? I'll miss being able to fast forward through ads on YouTube, but that's about it. The other problem I've been having lately is my Touch Bar will go black and non-functional, meaning I don't have an escape 'key' at all, forcing a reboot. At least the function keys were consistently functional.

    DuhSesame said:
    JWSC said:
    I was shocked to see the new MacBook Pro. It really looks fat. Heavy. 
    Some of that extra volume is for internal airflow.  The larger the airflow volume the less the fans have to work, saving battery life.
    Still no bigger than older Retinas.  I think people also exaggerate the thickness mainly because the change of its look.  You don’t have round bottoms anymore and the sidewall is twice as thick.

    Now thinner doesn’t necessarily means hotter, most notably servers, though that’s way too loud.  The current gen simply have larger fans, which also means larger heatsinks, and thanks to the SoC design, you have a symmetrical layout so both side will get optimal airflow when needed.  Retina 15” most likely less than 80W combined where the M1 16” will be over 120W.
    The overall size hasn't changed that much, it's just apple was quite adroit at visual illusions via tapered edges, etc. The new machines are thicker at the edges making the difference appear greater than it is. of course that allows smaller bezels and a higher resolution camera (and hopefully FaceID in the future,) so we're getting something for the loss of an illusion. Personally, I'll take it.

    marshallg said:
    Not only was HDMI with dongles a royal pain, it was almost impossible to find a dongle that could deliver true 4K60 444 video. Most defaulted to 4K30 for me. Now I can get full 4K60 HDMI.

    This was definitely a problem with the old dongle system. Some worked fine, some did not. Many had inconsistent capabilities, weren't recognized by the computer, quit working, etc. By having the HDMI port built in you ensure function and compatibility. 
    I wonder these sidewalls actually give more room for speakers, as they mounted on the side & could benefit from the geometry.
  • Reply 69 of 173
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,278member
    They didn't backtrack on everything.  They have not reintroduced the light up apple logo...yet.
    Meh, unless you’re Starbucks user.
  • Reply 70 of 173
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,335member
    The issue and the problem was essentially one of ideology.
    Ideology can be a valuable guidepost.  But, when it becomes the sole criteria to the exclusion of reality it becomes dangerous.

    In this case, the ideology was "Sleek, thin and light minimalist design" -- computer as a form of art.
    The reality it excluded was functionality.   People may be attracted to the great looking design, but they are buying a laptop for the tasks and jobs it can perform.  It's not a work of art, it's a tool.

    Ive's ideology of minimalist design had always been tempered and balanced by Steve and his realization that a product's job was to make people's lives better while looking great.  Under Steve Macs were both a tool and a work of art.  But, when he passed, that balance was lost.
    I think the relationship between design, style, and functionality is much more nuanced than what you’ve laid out. There have been periods of time where many facets of design and functionality were blended in very satisfying ways, including Art Nouveau, Art Deco, Craftsman, etc., where being highly functional didn’t preclude being beautiful, approachable, and aesthetically pleasing. I’d imagine that Jony Ive and his team were aiming for those sort of balances in ways that appeal to Apple’s targeted customers. 

    Of course there were only so many degrees of freedom that the MacBook Pro designers could exercise due to the product category having a certain design archetype that had to be maintained for practical reasons. They could not go crazy like they kind of did with the iPod Nano and explore lots of different approaches and form factors. Subtlety was their only real lever. 

    Which brings me back to “targeted customers.” I’m leaning towards Apple again subtly tweaking their design and minor functionality to broaden the target customers they are going after. Dropping Intel obviously has some benefits to Apple, including power-performance ratio and product release velocity, but to really kick Intel (and Windows) in the balls they have to take away customers from the Wintel camp. 

    Producing MacBook Pros that grab market share on the corporate side is hitting Intel and Windows where it really hurts. Providing more joy to existing Mac customers is icing on the cake, especially if they can move some of those loyal Apple customers up into more expensive products - with better margins to boot. 
    edited November 2021 docno42
  • Reply 71 of 173
    dewme said:
    The issue and the problem was essentially one of ideology.
    Ideology can be a valuable guidepost.  But, when it becomes the sole criteria to the exclusion of reality it becomes dangerous.

    In this case, the ideology was "Sleek, thin and light minimalist design" -- computer as a form of art.
    The reality it excluded was functionality.   People may be attracted to the great looking design, but they are buying a laptop for the tasks and jobs it can perform.  It's not a work of art, it's a tool.

    Ive's ideology of minimalist design had always been tempered and balanced by Steve and his realization that a product's job was to make people's lives better while looking great.  Under Steve Macs were both a tool and a work of art.  But, when he passed, that balance was lost.
    I think the relationship between design, style, and functionality is much more nuanced than what you’ve laid out. There have been periods of time where many facets of design and functionality were blended in very satisfying ways, including Art Nouveau, Art Deco, Craftsman, etc., where being highly functional didn’t preclude being beautiful, approachable, and aesthetically pleasing. I’d imagine that Jon Ivy and his team were aiming for those sort of balances in ways that appeal to Apple’s targeted customers. 

    Of course there were only so many degrees of freedom that the MacBook Pro designers could exercise due to the product category having a certain design archetype that had to be maintained for practical reasons. They could not go crazy like they kind of did with the iPod Nano and explore lots of different approaches and form factors. Subtlety was their only real lever. 

    Which brings me back to “targeted customers.” I’m leaning towards Apple again subtly tweaking their design and minor functionality to broaden the target customers they are going after. Dropping Intel obviously has some benefits to Apple, including power-performance ratio and product release velocity, but to really kick Intel (and Windows) in the balls they have to take away customers from the Wintel camp. 

    Producing MacBook Pros that grab market share on the corporate side is hitting Intel and Windows where it really hurts. Providing more joy to existing Mac customers is icing on the cake, especially if they can move some of those loyal Apple customers up into more expensive products - with better margins to boot. 
    Macs are in a very good position. Apple is well respected and making good money. It can fully fund the Mac team regardless of market share of Macs. 
  • Reply 72 of 173
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,278member
    tundraboy said:
    This has nothing to do with Jony Ive. Intel forced Apple to go minimalistic because of the generous heat it produces. Give it more enclosure it would retain more heat. Now that Intel has gone, with Apple Silicon you can make it as large as you want because the heat is minimal.
    You have it backwards.  You're confusing heat with temperature.  If you go minimalistic on a device that generates a lot of heat, that heat will be 'concentrated' on a smaller volume, causing temperature to be higher, and it is temperature that damages internal components.  The key is to think in terms of heat dissipation not heat retention.  A larger enclosed volume (all other things equal) would have better heat dissipation especially if a lot of that enclosed volume is empty space that can be used for airflow to cool the internal components.
    This is the metal mass that retains heat the most not the air that flows over or in it. Besides, the air flows only from the processor to the heat sink by means of a pipe and the fan, the flow is constrained to the pipe. There is no air "moving freely" in a larger enclosure. Since the air flows only from the processor to the sink, it has no (or minimal) effect on the overall cooldown of the enclosure. To make it cool down faster, you have to make it smaller so that it retains less heat and dissipates it faster. That "cooling air in a larger enclosure" is an urban legend. There is no such thing.
    What people means is “the larger the enclosure, more stuff you can shove it in”, could meant more heat pipes and bigger fan.

    But that’s really not the only option.  You can make your pipes more efficient, cut down the length, or add more area for your fans, make it faster, adding blades…bigger also doesn’t equal to lower temperature, too, maybe they just want a quieter device.
  • Reply 73 of 173
    thttht Posts: 5,421member
    Apple's decision to pare down the ports to a selection of Thunderbolt connections has also been partially reversed, with the inclusion of a full-sized HDMI port and an updated version of MagSafe. There's even an SD card slot, saving users from needing to carry around a separate card reader. 

    The designers didn't stop there, either. The new design is slightly thicker and heavier than in previous iterations. Those are two designs strategies that, in days gone by, would be seen as the antithesis of all for which Apple stands.
    If the M2 MBA rumors or renders are right, the next MBA is going to be ~10 mm thick. For the consumer class laptops at least, there's probably one more go-around before diminishing returns. If the 2022 MBA is 10 mm thick, 2 lb and a 13" display, they could be enough to drive the next round of MBA unit sales and to get switchers. Has to be a 13" display though. They can't do what they did with the rMB12. 12" just isn't going to be large enough for modern PC content.

    You can argue that the "
    new design is slightly thicker and heavier" as not true. The MBP14 is heavier than the MBP13, but it also has a 14% larger display, and so should be heaver as it will minimally need a larger battery to drive the display. It is the same thickness of the old MBP13 model. So the statement doesn't really apply. The old MBP13 model only appears thinner because of tapering at the sides.

    The MBP16 is indeed heavier, likely to accommodate a more performant cooling system, and the miniLED display is thicker. It also has a slightly larger display, but appears the bigger cooling system and miniLED is really adding some weight here. I'd like to have some measurements between the 2019 model and the 2021 model to see if the base or the lid is thicker.

    So, I think it is more true that the 2021 MBP models look boxier, but an argument can definitely be had against being thicker and heavier. There are significant gains for the increased weight. So, it's not a change in design philosophy per se. It's the tradeoffs needed for a more performant system.
    williamlondondocno42
  • Reply 74 of 173
    gcvgcv Posts: 18member
    One of the features I really miss is the dual purpose headphone jack that also served as a toslink optical connector. My complete music library is digitized, and I use my MacBook Pro to play it through a high quality stereo system. Apple may have saved a dollar on each Mac by eliminating this ability, but it made my life more complicated. I also miss the headphone jack on iOS devices. That may have been deleted to force customers to buy wireless headsets. I see that as another Ivey error.
    williamlondonAI_liasMplsP
  • Reply 75 of 173
    i dont think the extra ports alone explains the extent of the size and weight increase. At this size i would expect a DVD drive in it. It's more of a portable desktop than a laptop and the design with curved bottom is horrible. Whilst iphones and ipads have gone square edged, Is not what I expected at all.
    I won't be buying one, have to hope the Air does not go down the same route. Oh, and yes would love to see a touchscreen, my sons 2-1 Chromebook combo is a brilliant example of a touchscreen laptop and it's completely natural to him, as a Gen A, who expects all screens to be touchscreen (including the TV :-). 
    williamlondonAI_lias
  • Reply 76 of 173
    They didn't backtrack on everything.  They have not reintroduced the light up apple logo...yet.
    Or a USB-A port.
  • Reply 77 of 173
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,897member
    M68000 said:
    I do have to complain about the notch...it’s an abomination.

    "Lighten up, Francis."
    williamlondondocno42
  • Reply 78 of 173
    seanj said:
    Sticking old versions of HDMI and SD reader utterly pointless.
    As a frequent presenter, every venue has an HDMI cable running from the Epson projector to the podium for me to plug into a laptop. You can talk about how slow HDMI 2.0 is, but I've never even seen an HDMI 2.1 Epson projector. I'm very pleased that Apple stuck an HDMI port in my new MacBook Pro 16.
    williamlondonMplsPdocno42
  • Reply 79 of 173
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,278member
    AI_lias said:
    They didn't backtrack on everything.  They have not reintroduced the light up apple logo...yet.
    Or a USB-A port.
    That’s a no.
  • Reply 80 of 173
    DuhSesameDuhSesame Posts: 1,278member
    Why did Apple back track on the MacBook Pro? Well, customers kept telling them that they were not buying a new MacBook if it does not have the ports they need and a keyboard they can type on. Why don't you ask why Apple did not listen to customers before they made the previous MacBook? Secrecy is killing this company. You shouldn't have to release a product in order to figure out what customers want.
    I know people like you never saw replies, but here we go.

    First of all, Apple won’t go bankrupt even if all their Macs are utter disaster, which is not true, either.

    Second, they sold just fine.  They might lose some reputation but overall it’s good.

    Third, why don’t we talk about the chip?  That’s more than a half the reason why they got such a bad rep.  Other half being keyboard, yes, the 16” fixed it.

    Ports & Touch Bar are pretty much just additional talking points for why “pros” hated so much.  If none of the issues above existed, it’s an non-issue.


    back in 2016, nobody knows that 10nm was that much of a disaster, where they have the redesign for the next five years.  Then you see Intel simply giving up any efficiency till no laptop design can properly cool their chip.
    edited November 2021
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