Epic's Tim Sweeney calls Google 'crazy,' says 'Apple must be stopped'

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 59
    This article is written in such a way that it provokes “anti-Sweeney sentiment”. It’s Apple propaganda. 
    AppleInsider, you can do better, you should do better.
    Sorry, but any article about Swiney automatically has that effect on me, and apparently on you too. So don’t blame AI for that.
    🐖
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 59
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Being able to buy an app once and have the purchase be valid across platforms does have an appeal.
    Only if you ever consider leaving your current platform. Which in the case of Apple users would be like getting a very fancy insurance for very unlikely accidents.
    You would never consider leaving a platform?  That seems rather dogmatic, never is a long time.  

    I also don't see how it's "fancy insurance".  It's just buying an app from a different place, the price would probably be the same.
    @crowley ; That’s not quite what I said. I wrote “in the case of Apple…”. And yes, in the case of the Apple platform it is very unlikely I leave it voluntarily.

    I think the price would be very high, taking all aspects into consideration.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 59
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Being able to buy an app once and have the purchase be valid across platforms does have an appeal.
    And that’s possible today.  All Sweeney has to do is honor a purchase that was made on the Apple App Store when a user later moves to Android, for example.  He could credit that user the amount (after any App Store commission paid) that Epic received from that user for that app purchase and apply it as a discount when the user chooses to cross to another platform.  Of course, he fails to mention that fact.  
    I believe Fortnite does do this; all in app purchases are cross platform.  But for apps that you purchase up front, with no IAP, I don't believe there's any way for a developer to implement this, or at least not without some convoluted credit or rebate system.
    IAP from for example Sony PS cant be transferred.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 59
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,146member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Being able to buy an app once and have the purchase be valid across platforms does have an appeal.
    And that’s possible today.  All Sweeney has to do is honor a purchase that was made on the Apple App Store when a user later moves to Android, for example.  He could credit that user the amount (after any App Store commission paid) that Epic received from that user for that app purchase and apply it as a discount when the user chooses to cross to another platform.  Of course, he fails to mention that fact.  
    I believe Fortnite does do this; all in app purchases are cross platform.  But for apps that you purchase up front, with no IAP, I don't believe there's any way for a developer to implement this, or at least not without some convoluted credit or rebate system.
    IAP from for example Sony PS cant be transferred.
    According to this the purchases are all cross-platform, it's just the in-game currency that isn't.  Which is a bit silly, but at least it's halfway there.  It's probably a Sony or Nintendo policy that prevents the currency being transferable, and that's entirely the point; Epic are doing what they can, but the platform owners are preventing them operating in a platform agnostic way.  I can understand that would be frustrating for a software developer, and it's a bit annoying as a user too (not that I care about Fortnite).
  • Reply 45 of 59
    Once again, Epic/Sweeny's argument is all about money. As a developer, I am against removing all fees from App stores. If that was done, Apple and Google would be forced to start charging developers up front fees instead. Forget about that $99 a year developer program and free development tools for all. We will be back to the days when it cost a lot to develop code for Apple's products. In the past as I recall, we paid something like $1500 a year to be a developer but it did include a ticket to WWDC and developer discounts on hardware (which were really important if you were buying a Mac IIfx AKA too f'ing expensive).
  • Reply 46 of 59
    You are NOT Korean Tim Sweeney, and for you to even suggest being so is an INSULT!

    9secondkox2watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 59
    Have the details of how the law will be implemented been worked out? I haven’t seen anything with any real specifics, but I haven’t been trying to follow it.

    This conference just seems like a PR event, designed to try to influence the implementation of the law. “Working the refs,” as it were. 

    But that’s a real skill — it’s easy to piss off the referee if you’re not careful. For example, saying “I’m a Korean” seems more likely to just piss off the hard-working regulators and lawmakers who are responsible for implementing this, who have no doubt been working closely with both Google and Apple on the details. 
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 59
    XedXed Posts: 1,449member
    Is Epic trying to run itself into the ground?
    9secondkox2watto_cobra
  • Reply 49 of 59
    Sweeney seems like a total tool.
    I can't believe we're getting this worked up over something as fundamentally silly as a game maker. Popular, yes. Meaningful and helpful, no.
    williamlondon9secondkox2watto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 59
    crowley said:
    dee_dee said:
    crowley said:
    Being able to buy an app once and have the purchase be valid across platforms does have an appeal.
    I don’t see how developers are going to like that?  You have to pay for both an iOS app and Android app because they both cost money to develop.  
    Developers on Steam and the Epic Game Store seem to cope just fine, and their prices are almost always lower than the single platform Mac App Store.

    I doubt much of a developer's revenue comes from repeat purchases from platform hopping; there aren't that many people flitting between Android and iOS.
    Irrelevant.  Not all steam games are compatible across all platforms, and the ones that are aren't native.  
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 51 of 59
    robabarobaba Posts: 226member
    georgie01 said:
    It’s the typical ploy for power. “This person/organisation is bad. Turn away from them and come to me.” When all they’re offering is their own version of what they’re criticising—too much power. Sounds exactly like the current administration in the US…

    Wow, stopped reading right there.  There’s something called “credibility”.  You might not know what it is, but you just lost your my friend.
    williamlondon9secondkox2GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 52 of 59
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 1,846member
    xbit said:
    Tim Sweeney, who made his fortune ripping off the work of an indie developer and who continues to rip off the work of indie developers, has no place in a true App Fairness Coalition. The man is a hypocrite.
    Articles didn't even touch Fortnighte's stealing of Music, Dance, Fashion IP. 
    9secondkox2tenthousandthingswatto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 59
    blastdoor said:
    crowley said:
    Being able to buy an app once and have the purchase be valid across platforms does have an appeal.
    Free stuff is always appealing. But porting apps across platforms has cost -- who pays that cost? One way or another, the cost would ultimately be paid by all consumers. Consumers who use apps on a lot of different platforms would benefit, consumers who use only one platform would be hurt. So this idea is basically just a plan to transfer wealth from people who use one platform to people who use multiple platforms. As somebody who only buys apps for Apple platforms (though I do use open source apps on Linux), I do not approve of this plan. 
    If you read Sweeny's pie in the sky insane plan he wants the same piece of software to be run able on iOS, Android, Xbox, Nintendo products, Windows and the Mac,  Ignoring the fact he forgot about Linux running some computers/mobile devices, anyone who knows anything about software will understand how irrational that is.  Heck, it makes Peter Molyneux's over ambitious claims look conservative.

    The only way it could work is if the device actually connected to a main server and given how bad/expensive the internet can be in the US (many areas served by one and only on high speed provider) that is not going to work.  Worst yet if the company that made the software goes under or shuts down their servers you are SOL because the software was never on your device.

    This Planter's Special idea effectively says in the future you could play wii games on an iPhone.  Need I spell out how jaw dropping insane that is?
    GeorgeBMacwatto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 59
    Xed said:
    Is Epic trying to run itself into the ground?
    No it just being run by an egotist who believes they can do no wrong and ignore all evidence that they are effectively walking off the nearest cliff.
    9secondkox2williamlondon
  • Reply 55 of 59
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,146member
    dee_dee said:
    crowley said:
    dee_dee said:
    crowley said:
    Being able to buy an app once and have the purchase be valid across platforms does have an appeal.
    I don’t see how developers are going to like that?  You have to pay for both an iOS app and Android app because they both cost money to develop.  
    Developers on Steam and the Epic Game Store seem to cope just fine, and their prices are almost always lower than the single platform Mac App Store.

    I doubt much of a developer's revenue comes from repeat purchases from platform hopping; there aren't that many people flitting between Android and iOS.
    Irrelevant.  Not all steam games are compatible across all platforms, and the ones that are aren't native.  
    Why is that irrelevant?  No one is saying that every app developer should be forced to build for Android and iOS, just that for those who do it'd be cool to have an app purchase be valid across platforms.  Lots of Steam games are available across Windows, Mac, and Linux.  

    And if you're referring to M1 with the "native" comment, Steamworks has been updated to support M1, and Apple Silicon games are starting to appear.  
    If you're referring to Intel Macs, you're just plain wrong, games released for Intel Macs were native.
    If you're referring to Proton, meh, if it works, it works, it really doesn't matter if it checks a puritan "native" checkbox.  Linux users are used to that.
    edited November 2021
  • Reply 56 of 59
    There are more fun quotes at the end of the article, including this: “[Their] policies are so restrictive that if the worldwide web had been embedded after the smartphone, then Apple and Google would have blocked all web browsers from being released on their platforms.”

    This one is also telling: ”There’s a store market, there’s a payments market, and there are many other related markets. And it’s critical that antitrust enforcement not allow a monopolist in one market to use their control of that market to impose control over unrelated markets.”

    I think it’s clear who was directing Epic’s counterproductive legal arguments in its case in the US. Like the judge in that case, in Korea the people charged with the actual enforcement of this law are not going to be impressed with such bullshit.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 59
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,561member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Being able to buy an app once and have the purchase be valid across platforms does have an appeal.
    And that’s possible today.  All Sweeney has to do is honor a purchase that was made on the Apple App Store when a user later moves to Android, for example.  He could credit that user the amount (after any App Store commission paid) that Epic received from that user for that app purchase and apply it as a discount when the user chooses to cross to another platform.  Of course, he fails to mention that fact.  
    I believe Fortnite does do this; all in app purchases are cross platform.  But for apps that you purchase up front, with no IAP, I don't believe there's any way for a developer to implement this, or at least not without some convoluted credit or rebate system.
    IAP from for example Sony PS cant be transferred.
    According to this the purchases are all cross-platform, it's just the in-game currency that isn't.  Which is a bit silly, but at least it's halfway there. It's probably a Sony or Nintendo policy that prevents the currency being transferable, and that's entirely the point; Epic are doing what they can, but the platform owners are preventing them operating in a platform agnostic way.  I can understand that would be frustrating for a software developer, and it's a bit annoying as a user too (not that I care about Fortnite).
    But the commission collected by the various platforms is only based on the real money that purchased the virtual currency used to buy virtual goods. And only the platform from where those V-Bucks were purchased, got the commission. Platforms do not get a commission for purchases made with V-Bucks. 

    E.G. ..... it cost $10 in real currency, to purchase $20 worth of virtual V-Bucks that are used to buy virtual items in Fortnite. The virtual items purchased with the V-bucks can be used on all platforms with the users account, regardless of what platform the virtual purchase was made. But the V-Bucks are not transferable because only one platform got the commission when they were purchased. 

    If  Xbox Fortnite players bought $10 worth of V-Bucks on their Xbox, then what's in it for Sony if Xbox players can spend those V-bucks while playing Fortnite using a free app on a PlayStation? This is not silly at all. It would make no business sense for Sony to provide a free Fortnite app, that Xbox players can use the V-bucks that they purchased on an Xbox, to buy virtual items while playing Fortnite using Sony IP.  And only Microsoft got the commission for the purchase of those Xbox V-Bucks. 

    However, with Epic, iOS and Android do fall under "mobile platform" and any V-Bucks purchased in iOS or Android, are interchangeable with each other. But not with any game consoles.  And it seems that "mobile platform" V-bucks are also interchangeable with their "PC platform" (There is no longer a MacOS platform. For now )  
    https://www.epicgames.com/help/en-US/fortnite-c75/battle-royale-c93/what-happens-now-that-i-can-no-longer-play-fortnite-on-mac-a6983

    But not sure if this was always the case or did that only occur recently when Epic screwed Apple and Google out of their commission, by providing a link in their app that allowed iOS and Android Fortnite players to buy their V-Bucks on the Epic Game Store website. Like how it's done with a PC.  Not sure and maybe long time Fortnite players can provide the correct answer, but I seem to recall that iOS, Android, PC and Mac were all once separate platforms (under Epic) and V-Bucks between them were not interchangeable.  

    None of the game consoles "purchased" V-Bucks are interchangeable with each other or any other platforms. With the exception of V-Bucks bought from a PC is interchangeable with the Xbox. That's because Microsoft owns both the Xbox and Windows on a PC. Don't think for a second that Microsoft is playing nice here.

    BTW- in your link, the answer is directly pertaining to a question about the Sony PlayStation and Nintendo Switch. When it's saying that "all other V-Bucks are available cross platform",  they mean the V-Bucks that are earned during game play on a Playstation or Switch. If you add Xbox to the list, the statement would be just as true. With .... "All other V-bucks ", "other" do not mean on other platforms ....... "other" means V-Bucks that were not "purchased."


    "V-Bucks purchased on Nintendo Switch and PlayStation 4 are only available on the platform they are purchased on. All other V-Bucks, are available across platform"


    edited November 2021 williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 58 of 59
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,146member
    davidw said:

    None of the game consoles "purchased" V-Bucks are interchangeable with each other or any other platforms. With the exception of V-Bucks bought from a PC is interchangeable with the Xbox. That's because Microsoft owns both the Xbox and Windows on a PC. Don't think for a second that Microsoft is playing nice here.

    [snipped the quote for readability]

    What you say makes a lot of sense, except one thing: if Fortnite currency purchasable through the Epic Games Store are usable on PC and Xbox, then where is Microsoft's interest? They do seem to be playing a bit nicer than the others.
    edited November 2021
  • Reply 59 of 59
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    Being able to buy an app once and have the purchase be valid across platforms does have an appeal.
    And that’s possible today.  All Sweeney has to do is honor a purchase that was made on the Apple App Store when a user later moves to Android, for example.  He could credit that user the amount (after any App Store commission paid) that Epic received from that user for that app purchase and apply it as a discount when the user chooses to cross to another platform.  Of course, he fails to mention that fact.  
    I believe Fortnite does do this; all in app purchases are cross platform.  But for apps that you purchase up front, with no IAP, I don't believe there's any way for a developer to implement this, or at least not without some convoluted credit or rebate system.
    IAP from for example Sony PS cant be transferred.
    According to this the purchases are all cross-platform, it's just the in-game currency that isn't.  Which is a bit silly, but at least it's halfway there. It's probably a Sony or Nintendo policy that prevents the currency being transferable, and that's entirely the point; Epic are doing what they can, but the platform owners are preventing them operating in a platform agnostic way.  I can understand that would be frustrating for a software developer, and it's a bit annoying as a user too (not that I care about Fortnite).
    But the commission collected by the various platforms is only based on the real money that purchased the virtual currency used to buy virtual goods. And only the platform from where those V-Bucks were purchased, got the commission. Platforms do not get a commission for purchases made with V-Bucks. 

    E.G. ..... it cost $10 in real currency, to purchase $20 worth of virtual V-Bucks that are used to buy virtual items in Fortnite. The virtual items purchased with the V-bucks can be used on all platforms with the users account, regardless of what platform the virtual purchase was made. But the V-Bucks are not transferable because only one platform got the commission when they were purchased. 

    If  Xbox Fortnite players bought $10 worth of V-Bucks on their Xbox, then what's in it for Sony if Xbox players can spend those V-bucks while playing Fortnite using a free app on a PlayStation? This is not silly at all. It would make no business sense for Sony to provide a free Fortnite app, that Xbox players can use the V-bucks that they purchased on an Xbox, to buy virtual items while playing Fortnite using Sony IP.  And only Microsoft got the commission for the purchase of those Xbox V-Bucks. 

    However, with Epic, iOS and Android do fall under "mobile platform" and any V-Bucks purchased in iOS or Android, are interchangeable with each other. But not with any game consoles.  And it seems that "mobile platform" V-bucks are also interchangeable with their "PC platform" (There is no longer a MacOS platform. For now )  
    https://www.epicgames.com/help/en-US/fortnite-c75/battle-royale-c93/what-happens-now-that-i-can-no-longer-play-fortnite-on-mac-a6983

    But not sure if this was always the case or did that only occur recently when Epic screwed Apple and Google out of their commission, by providing a link in their app that allowed iOS and Android Fortnite players to buy their V-Bucks on the Epic Game Store website. Like how it's done with a PC.  Not sure and maybe long time Fortnite players can provide the correct answer, but I seem to recall that iOS, Android, PC and Mac were all once separate platforms (under Epic) and V-Bucks between them were not interchangeable.  

    None of the game consoles "purchased" V-Bucks are interchangeable with each other or any other platforms. With the exception of V-Bucks bought from a PC is interchangeable with the Xbox. That's because Microsoft owns both the Xbox and Windows on a PC. Don't think for a second that Microsoft is playing nice here.

    BTW- in your link, the answer is directly pertaining to a question about the Sony PlayStation and Nintendo Switch. When it's saying that "all other V-Bucks are available cross platform",  they mean the V-Bucks that are earned during game play on a Playstation or Switch. If you add Xbox to the list, the statement would be just as true. With .... "All other V-bucks ", "other" do not mean on other platforms ....... "other" means V-Bucks that were not "purchased."


    "V-Bucks purchased on Nintendo Switch and PlayStation 4 are only available on the platform they are purchased on. All other V-Bucks, are available across platform"



    Perhaps the difference is:  Applying a web based model to an app based model.
    A program fully available on any platform via the web through a generic browser has a different business model than one sold (and controlled) individually via an app.

    At the same time, wide spread availability of broadband and high speed 5G could impact which model is used:   40 years ago one of the motivations for the switch to PCs was the ability to run programs on dedicated CPUs instead of through slow communications with a central processor.  But high speed communications are beginning to reverse that equation and return things to central processors:  We used to call those central processors "mainframes" but now they're called "the Cloud" and instead of being accessed via dial up or dedicated T1 lines they're accessed via "the internet".
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