EU may struggle to fund $48 billion Chips Act

Comments

• Reply 1 of 15

  pwrmac Posts: 64member

  February 7, 2022 3:30PM

  Tip for the EU bureaucrats. Maybe you can grab more money from te US tech companies to fund EU chop industry. I am sure EU Commissioner for Completion M Verstager has has something up her sleeve.

  

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• Reply 2 of 15

  skipdeedy Posts: 15member

  February 7, 2022 4:16PM

  @pwrmac ;
  Give it a rest. 

  edited February 2022

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• Reply 3 of 15

  darkvader Posts: 1,146member

  February 7, 2022 4:21PM

  pwrmac said:

  Tip for the EU bureaucrats. Maybe you can grab more money from te US tech companies to fund EU chop industry. I am sure EU Commissioner for Completion M Verstager has has something up her sleeve.

  
  By EU chop industry do you mean pork production or car theft?
  

  

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• Reply 4 of 15

  badmonk Posts: 1,353member

  February 7, 2022 4:36PM

  The EU to big tech —“I hate you, i love you, I hate you, I love you…”

  

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• Reply 5 of 15

  lkrupp Posts: 10,557member

  February 7, 2022 4:44PM

  Funny how long after the horse has left the barn EU and U.S. politicians want to ween us off the Chinese tech teat. Too little, too late so this is all just posturing. China owns the West lock, stock, and barrel. China has stolen all of the West’s technology and used it to conquer our manufacturing ability. We simply are unable to manufacture tech anymore. Even if these incentives take hold it will be decades before they bear any fruit.
  
  Who is going to buy  a chip from Intel that’s made in the U.S. when they can get the exact same thing (albeit a knockoff counterfeit) from China at a third the price? 

  edited February 2022

  

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• Reply 6 of 15

  tmay Posts: 6,466member

  February 7, 2022 4:54PM

  lkrupp said:

  Funny how long after the horse has left the barn EU and U.S. politicians want to ween us off the Chinese tech teat. Too little, too late so this is all just posturing. China owns the West lock, stock, and barrel. China has stolen all of the West’s technology and used it to conquer our manufacturing ability. We simply are unable to manufacture tech anymore. Even if these incentives take hold it will be decades before they bear any fruit.
  
  Who is going to buy  a chip from Intel that’s made in the U.S. when they can get the exact same thing (albeit a knockoff counterfeit) from China at a third the price? 

  Gee, try and find any leading edge semiconductor process in China; you're going to come up empty handed. The one thing China needs most it can't buy, or steal, is EUV tech, and ASML in the Netherlands has a monopoly on that.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  

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• Reply 7 of 15

  ravnorodom Posts: 735member

  February 7, 2022 5:02PM

  lkrupp said:

  Funny how long after the horse has left the barn EU and U.S. politicians want to ween us off the Chinese tech teat. Too little, too late so this is all just posturing. China owns the West lock, stock, and barrel. China has stolen all of the West’s technology and used it to conquer our manufacturing ability. We simply are unable to manufacture tech anymore. Even if these incentives take hold it will be decades before they bear any fruit.
  
  Who is going to buy  a chip from Intel that’s made in the U.S. when they can get the exact same thing (albeit a knockoff counterfeit) from China at a third the price? 

  I think China is struggling getting chips made ever since they being sanctioned. Their current chip manufacturers are decade behind Intel, TSMC (Taiwan) and Samsung. China can design advance chip but they have no access to fabrication. 60% of fabrication equipments are made in USA and the remaining is from Netherlands. U.S.Government also prevents Netherland from selling it to China due to some components are designed in USA.

  

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• Reply 8 of 15

  waveparticle Posts: 1,497member

  February 7, 2022 5:20PM

  lkrupp said:

  Funny how long after the horse has left the barn EU and U.S. politicians want to ween us off the Chinese tech teat. Too little, too late so this is all just posturing. China owns the West lock, stock, and barrel. China has stolen all of the West’s technology and used it to conquer our manufacturing ability. We simply are unable to manufacture tech anymore. Even if these incentives take hold it will be decades before they bear any fruit.
  
  Who is going to buy  a chip from Intel that’s made in the U.S. when they can get the exact same thing (albeit a knockoff counterfeit) from China at a third the price? 

  You are hallucinating.

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• Reply 9 of 15

  larryjw Posts: 1,038member

  February 7, 2022 8:23PM

  lkrupp said:

  Funny how long after the horse has left the barn EU and U.S. politicians want to ween us off the Chinese tech teat. Too little, too late so this is all just posturing. China owns the West lock, stock, and barrel. China has stolen all of the West’s technology and used it to conquer our manufacturing ability. We simply are unable to manufacture tech anymore. Even if these incentives take hold it will be decades before they bear any fruit.
  
  Who is going to buy  a chip from Intel that’s made in the U.S. when they can get the exact same thing (albeit a knockoff counterfeit) from China at a third the price? 

  The Chinese stole nothing. 

  
  

  Early on American companies — not really the companies but the Suits who know nothing but see themselves as the key players in the company — decided everyone else were company cogs and replaceable by other nameless cogs — decided to replace these cogs with Chinese cogs. 

  
  

  The Chinese, not being stupid, realizing that American companies gain their profits and riches by exploitation, decided not to allow their people to be exploited for cheap labor, unlike their American counterparts.
  
  So, they forced the American companies to give up money and trade secrets, etc, in order to get Chinese labor — while thinking China was allowing their people to be exploited. 

  
  

  So, China is not only the sole source of many chips, they became the sole source of the skills and knowledge to manufacture these products. 

  
  

  As Tim Cook has said, China can fill stadiums with people with the skills Apple needs, while the US couldn’t fill a hotel conference room. 
  

  
  

  So, what we have is sole source suppliers. It’s not just tech, either. 

  
  

  For example, to keep their costs low and profits high, the Suits built sole source suppliers of medical equipment, such as the plastic fluid bags, masks, many cheap but essential drugs, syringes, drug vials, etc.
  
  So, US companies might be able to build the facilities for manufacturing, but it’s unlikely to be able to hire the number of skilled people to do the necessary tasks. Forty years of off-shoring cannot and will not be reversed within most of our lifetimes — at least not with American labor. 
  

  

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• Reply 10 of 15

  crowley Posts: 10,453member

  February 7, 2022 8:31PM

  lkrupp said:

  Funny how long after the horse has left the barn EU and U.S. politicians want to ween us off the Chinese tech teat. Too little, too late so this is all just posturing. China owns the West lock, stock, and barrel. China has stolen all of the West’s technology and used it to conquer our manufacturing ability. We simply are unable to manufacture tech anymore. Even if these incentives take hold it will be decades before they bear any fruit.
  
  Who is going to buy  a chip from Intel that’s made in the U.S. when they can get the exact same thing (albeit a knockoff counterfeit) from China at a third the price? 

  You offer excellent solutions, how do I vote for you?

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• Reply 11 of 15

  avon b7 Posts: 8,225member

  February 7, 2022 8:32PM

  tmay said:

  lkrupp said:

  Funny how long after the horse has left the barn EU and U.S. politicians want to ween us off the Chinese tech teat. Too little, too late so this is all just posturing. China owns the West lock, stock, and barrel. China has stolen all of the West’s technology and used it to conquer our manufacturing ability. We simply are unable to manufacture tech anymore. Even if these incentives take hold it will be decades before they bear any fruit.
  
  Who is going to buy  a chip from Intel that’s made in the U.S. when they can get the exact same thing (albeit a knockoff counterfeit) from China at a third the price? 

  Gee, try and find any leading edge semiconductor process in China; you're going to come up empty handed. The one thing China needs most it can't buy, or steal, is EUV tech, and ASML in the Netherlands has a monopoly on that.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  'leading edge' is not always process node dependant in SoC terms but if you want to run with that from a manufacturing perspective, it's worth remembering that it represents around 2% of global chip production IIRC. 
  
  China will play a huge part in satisfying demand for the remaining 98%.

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• Reply 12 of 15

  avon b7 Posts: 8,225member

  February 7, 2022 8:37PM

  lkrupp said:

  Funny how long after the horse has left the barn EU and U.S. politicians want to ween us off the Chinese tech teat. Too little, too late so this is all just posturing. China owns the West lock, stock, and barrel. China has stolen all of the West’s technology and used it to conquer our manufacturing ability. We simply are unable to manufacture tech anymore. Even if these incentives take hold it will be decades before they bear any fruit.
  
  Who is going to buy  a chip from Intel that’s made in the U.S. when they can get the exact same thing (albeit a knockoff counterfeit) from China at a third the price? 

  The EU began its process of becoming independent of US technology in processing long before this crisis.
  
  The EU processor initiative is rolling along at its own pace. 

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• Reply 13 of 15

  dewme Posts: 5,989member

  February 7, 2022 11:30PM

  larryjw said:

  lkrupp said:

  Funny how long after the horse has left the barn EU and U.S. politicians want to ween us off the Chinese tech teat. Too little, too late so this is all just posturing. China owns the West lock, stock, and barrel. China has stolen all of the West’s technology and used it to conquer our manufacturing ability. We simply are unable to manufacture tech anymore. Even if these incentives take hold it will be decades before they bear any fruit.
  
  Who is going to buy  a chip from Intel that’s made in the U.S. when they can get the exact same thing (albeit a knockoff counterfeit) from China at a third the price? 

  The Chinese stole nothing. 

  
  

  Early on American companies — not really the companies but the Suits who know nothing but see themselves as the key players in the company — decided everyone else were company cogs and replaceable by other nameless cogs — decided to replace these cogs with Chinese cogs. 

  
  

  The Chinese, not being stupid, realizing that American companies gain their profits and riches by exploitation, decided not to allow their people to be exploited for cheap labor, unlike their American counterparts.
  
  So, they forced the American companies to give up money and trade secrets, etc, in order to get Chinese labor — while thinking China was allowing their people to be exploited. 

  
  

  So, China is not only the sole source of many chips, they became the sole source of the skills and knowledge to manufacture these products. 

  
  

  As Tim Cook has said, China can fill stadiums with people with the skills Apple needs, while the US couldn’t fill a hotel conference room. 
  

  
  

  So, what we have is sole source suppliers. It’s not just tech, either. 

  
  

  For example, to keep their costs low and profits high, the Suits built sole source suppliers of medical equipment, such as the plastic fluid bags, masks, many cheap but essential drugs, syringes, drug vials, etc.
  
  So, US companies might be able to build the facilities for manufacturing, but it’s unlikely to be able to hire the number of skilled people to do the necessary tasks. Forty years of off-shoring cannot and will not be reversed within most of our lifetimes — at least not with American labor. 
  

  Nailed it! 

  
  

  Also, the Suits live in constant fear of how Wall Street will react to the next quarterly readout versus expectations. So even when companies like Apple have massive quarterly numbers, even best-ever in the history of the company, if the ratios and actuals don’t line up with pundit predictions, panic ensues and stupidity sets in. This short term mentality and schizophrenia scares companies away from making huge long term capital and resource investments, like new fabs, factories, and workforce training. 

  
  

  I totally agree that if we built factories in the US of the size and capacity of those that are used to build Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, HP, etc., products currently on the market it would be a huge challenge to staff them with … humans. There are some folks in the factory automation and robotics business who are already starting to talk about the possibility of robot staffing/headhunter firms that would “hire out” robots to companies in need of staffing. Instead of companies seeking out skilled workers through headhunters and executive placement firms they would seek out robotic workers as needed, paying for them by the hour or a contracted salary, and releasing them back to their agency when no longer needed. 

  
  

  I don’t think we’re quite at the point of having pools of robots at the ready, waiting around to be “hired” out by robot staffing firms, but the concept seems very doable. We're not too far removed from that model today because so many product makers have contracted out manufacturing. Today the contract manufacturers decide how to bring in staff and apply automation, but it’s not too far fetched to envision contract manufacturers outsourcing their staffing model to others, including those who know how to balance both human and robot staffing to achieve the most cost effective total solution. At some wage rate, robots could very be the most cost effective solution. 

  

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• Reply 14 of 15

  tmay Posts: 6,466member

  February 7, 2022 11:33PM

  avon b7 said:

  tmay said:

  lkrupp said:

  Funny how long after the horse has left the barn EU and U.S. politicians want to ween us off the Chinese tech teat. Too little, too late so this is all just posturing. China owns the West lock, stock, and barrel. China has stolen all of the West’s technology and used it to conquer our manufacturing ability. We simply are unable to manufacture tech anymore. Even if these incentives take hold it will be decades before they bear any fruit.
  
  Who is going to buy  a chip from Intel that’s made in the U.S. when they can get the exact same thing (albeit a knockoff counterfeit) from China at a third the price? 

  Gee, try and find any leading edge semiconductor process in China; you're going to come up empty handed. The one thing China needs most it can't buy, or steal, is EUV tech, and ASML in the Netherlands has a monopoly on that.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  'leading edge' is not always process node dependant in SoC terms but if you want to run with that from a manufacturing perspective, it's worth remembering that it represents around 2% of global chip production IIRC. 
  
  China will play a huge part in satisfying demand for the remaining 98%.

  There are already plenty of electronic competent suppliers in China, but there are very few, if any, fabs under 10nm, so all of that revenue will go to TSMC, Samsung, Intel, plus a few other companies. Fabbing processors and SOC's is much more lucrative than manufacturing discrete components.

  

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• Reply 15 of 15

  jwsc Posts: 1,203member

  February 8, 2022 3:16AM

  Is it too much to ask of the EU and the US to stop it with the corporate welfare? A sensible effort to remove government impose barriers (and there are many) to growth wouldn't cost the taxpayers anything and would provide plenty of incentive for private capital to invest in these industries.

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