EU antitrust bill could force Apple to make sweeping changes to Siri, App Store & More

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 62
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,385member
    What a fucking mess. Are companies actually allowed to design their own products anymore? These changes will all be a net negative for 99% of iPhone/iOS users. Jesus. The entire fucking reason the iPhone and App Store became so insanely popular is bc most people DON'T want to download random shit from the internet and screw up their phones. They DON'T want to deal with shitty 3rd party payment forms and systems. People engage so much with iOS products because they TRUST them, and that trust was not built up easily. Now these morons want to tear that all down for the sake of "competition". 
    radarthekatthtwatto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 62
    NaiyasNaiyas Posts: 107member
    slurpy said:
    What a fucking mess. Are companies actually allowed to design their own products anymore? These changes will all be a net negative for 99% of iPhone/iOS users. Jesus. The entire fucking reason the iPhone and App Store became so insanely popular is bc most people DON'T want to download random shit from the internet and screw up their phones. They DON'T want to deal with shitty 3rd party payment forms and systems. People engage so much with iOS products because they TRUST them, and that trust was not built up easily. Now these morons want to tear that all down for the sake of "competition". 
    If anyone has read the various historical studies on why the industrial revolution took place in the UK rather than France when both were comparable powers at the time one only needs look at the way things happen in the EU as the model is very similar (and getting increasingly similar) to how France was back in the day. Essentially, the concept of commercialisation of ideas before regulation was a key part of enabling the industrial revolution to take place. In France, central government required all ideas to undergo assessment and approval before commercialisation was every possible. This meant France quickly ended up decades behind. The French model sits at the heart of the EU way of doing things.

    The same is generally true of the comparison between the US and EU models. Commercialisation typically takes place via the US because there is more capital and more openness to trying new things that may fail. The EU mindset is to de-risk (adhere to compliance - or create it) before commercialising it. In the fast moving world of the tech industry the EU will always be at least a decade behind in the tech space - look no further than the phone charger connector debacle as a prime example. Well established industries fit in the EU well... new ones not so much which is why they generally spawn elsewhere.

    All I'm saying is there is nothing new in any of this. It's happened before and will happen again and again and again. That's why its called a cycle. 
    freeassociate2georgie01watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 62
    MadbumMadbum Posts: 536member
    So why wouldn’t Apple just do 2 version of the phone, I mean they do it now for carriers already and let people of EU or other places with these rules chose? Put a big warning label on the EU open to side loading phones like Apple is not able to secure that phone due to EU rules etc.

    I bet nobody buys that phone. Then EU can say nothing because people made their choice?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 62
    urahara said:
    Cool. The pressure is on. Maybe apple will now contemplate paying its fair share in taxes to European countries it operates in to make this bill more palatable. When you steal from the hand that feeds you time after time again something like this was inevitable and it makes perfect sense that google and amazon are next.
    Do you mean that EU wants to steal from Apple which feeds EU?
    EU has the thing that apple needs: customers with the cash and access to financial instruments to purchase and keep purchasing their products. But the EU gets a rotten deal because digital services are taxed elsewhere if at all and way bellow actual value. Apple has been very naughty (polite way of saying that they are stealing) and refused to pay fair taxes. 

    I think this is a shakedown. Pay us what you owe or else thing. What is disconcerting is that the EU has fallen to the level of the likes of apple/google/samsung to get what it wants.

    That is ridiculous. Apple does not dictate the amount of taxes they pay. If Apple is paying a low tax then it’s because a certain country offered that low tax but Apple is certainly not demanding anything.
    radarthekatthtgeorgie01watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 62
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,074member
    Cool. The pressure is on. Maybe apple will now contemplate paying its fair share in taxes to European countries it operates in to make this bill more palatable. When you steal from the hand that feeds you time after time again something like this was inevitable and it makes perfect sense that google and amazon are next.

    It its not corporations fault that the EU has such a tax system which allows each EU country to set their own tax laws and thus complete with the other EU countries for corporations businesses, using lower taxes as an incentive. We have that here it the US, where each State can compete for corporations businesses with lower taxes. You don't see CA suing TX for drawing corporations business away from CA, with lower taxes as an incentive. But over there in the EU, France and Germany will sue Ireland for having lower taxes that attracts more corporations businesses. 

    If the EU thinks US corporations are not paying their "fair share", then change the tax laws. So long as corporations are paying what they legally owe in taxes, they are paying their "fair share". 

    And just how is the EU fining US corporations based on their global revenue, if they were to violate EU laws, a "fair share"? Shouldn't  a "fair share" for the EU fine be based on the revenue generated in the EU?  What makes the EU think they deserve to fine a US corporation based on their global revenue, other than a very distorted definition of ..... "fair share".  What's next, the EU will fine US corporations for violating laws in other countries that are not in the EU, just in case the corporations were thinking about violating the same law in the EU? 

    And even in the EU, its citizens ends up paying corporations taxes and the added VAT tax on top of it. Don't come crying when a $1K (US) iPhone in the US cost the equivalent of $1.2K (US) in the EU. Plus the extra $40(US) added in VAT.  

    Or maybe the EU will also dictate how much US corporations can charge for their products. Just like how the EU limit the profits pharmaceuticals companies can make on their drugs. Thus forcing pharmaceuticals to make nearly all their profits in the US, with way higher prescription drug prices for US citizens. And some of the World's largest and most profitable pharmaceuticals are in the EU and profit greatly from this arrangement. 

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/05/02/america_needs_to_stop_subsidizing_europe_and_canadas_prescription_drugs.html

    https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/529049-america-is-subsidizing-europes-socialist-medicine-with-higher-drug-prices/

    It's about time the US pass laws regulating drug prices, like they do in the EU, specially drugs by EU pharmaceuticals and force the EU to pay their "fair share". 
    edited April 2022 thtgeorgie01watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 62
    MadbumMadbum Posts: 536member
    Actually EU is one of Apple smaller markets compared to North America and Asia

    Much of the EU uses cheap android phones

    Actually Apple
    might just leave the EU because their share is so small there. UK is the biggest market and they are no longer in the EU

    say what you will about China or India , they don’t do this retarded shit to Apple
    edited April 2022 radarthekatgeorgie01watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 62
    MadbumMadbum Posts: 536member
    davidw said:
    Cool. The pressure is on. Maybe apple will now contemplate paying its fair share in taxes to European countries it operates in to make this bill more palatable. When you steal from the hand that feeds you time after time again something like this was inevitable and it makes perfect sense that google and amazon are next.

    It its not corporations fault that the EU has such a tax system which allows each EU country to set their own tax laws and thus complete with the other EU countries for corporations businesses, using lower taxes as an incentive. We have that here it the US, where each State can compete for corporations businesses with lower taxes. You don't see CA suing TX for drawing corporations business away from CA, with lower taxes as an incentive. But over there in the EU, France and Germany will sue Ireland for having lower taxes that attracts more corporations businesses. 

    If the EU thinks US corporations are not paying their "fair share", then change the tax laws. So long as corporations are paying what they legally owe in taxes, they are paying their "fair share". 

    And just how is the EU fining US corporations based on their global revenue, if they were to violate EU laws, a "fair share"? Shouldn't  a "fair share" for the EU fine be based on the revenue generated in the EU?  What makes the EU think they deserve to fine a US corporation based on their global revenue, other than a very distorted definition of ..... "fair share".  What's next, the EU will fine US corporations for violating laws in other countries that are not in the EU, just in case the corporations were thinking about violating the same law in the EU? 

    And even in the EU, its citizens ends up paying corporations taxes and the added VAT tax on top of it. Don't come crying when a $1K (US) iPhone in the US cost the equivalent of $1.2K (US) in the EU. Plus the extra $40(US) added in VAT.  

    Or maybe the EU will also dictate how much US corporations can charge for their products. Just like how the EU limit the profits pharmaceuticals companies can make on their drugs. Thus forcing pharmaceuticals to make nearly all their profits in the US, with way higher prescription drug prices for US citizens. And some of the World's largest and most profitable pharmaceuticals are in the EU and profit greatly from this arrangement. 

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/05/02/america_needs_to_stop_subsidizing_europe_and_canadas_prescription_drugs.html

    https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/529049-america-is-subsidizing-europes-socialist-medicine-with-higher-drug-prices/

    It's about time the US pass laws regulating drug prices, like they do in the EU, specially drugs by EU pharmaceuticals and force the EU to pay their "fair share". 
    Not just drugs but cars, cosmetic and hand bags
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 62
    Cool. The pressure is on. Maybe apple will now contemplate paying its fair share in taxes to European countries it operates in to make this bill more palatable. When you steal from the hand that feeds you time after time again something like this was inevitable and it makes perfect sense that google and amazon are next.
    Orrrrrr …. Just an idea … maybe get your member states to fix their tax laws and stop screwing each other over?
    JFC_PAwatto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 62
    I genuinely hope they leave rather than poison pill the product in order to say “see you killed our market”. Leaving would also send a message to legislators here.

    However, I think what they might do is one of two things: get the WTO to overturn it since the enforcement is so obviously lopsided, or come at Android with a full assault on the services front (which I think they are prepared to do.)
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 62
    urahara said:
    Cool. The pressure is on. Maybe apple will now contemplate paying its fair share in taxes to European countries it operates in to make this bill more palatable. When you steal from the hand that feeds you time after time again something like this was inevitable and it makes perfect sense that google and amazon are next.
    Do you mean that EU wants to steal from Apple which feeds EU?
    EU has the thing that apple needs: customers with the cash and access to financial instruments to purchase and keep purchasing their products. But the EU gets a rotten deal because digital services are taxed elsewhere if at all and way bellow actual value. Apple has been very naughty (polite way of saying that they are stealing) and refused to pay fair taxes. 

    I think this is a shakedown. Pay us what you owe or else thing. What is disconcerting is that the EU has fallen to the level of the likes of apple/google/samsung to get what it wants.

    That is ridiculous. Apple does not dictate the amount of taxes they pay. If Apple is paying a low tax then it’s because a certain country offered that low tax but Apple is certainly not demanding anything.

    They went looking for a way to pay cheaper taxes. Like seriously digging around to find and lubricate the relationships that would allow them to do that legally.  Same as what they have been doing in the US for much longer. These are syndromes of corruption and perhaps you and ‘Davidw’ applaud such practices for your personal short term gain but for some reason cannot see how this might turn out in our detriment, including yours.  Anyway, I do believe this is a shakedown and hope it succeeds.

    crowley
  • Reply 31 of 62
    davidw said:
    Cool. The pressure is on. Maybe apple will now contemplate paying its fair share in taxes to European countries it operates in to make this bill more palatable. When you steal from the hand that feeds you time after time again something like this was inevitable and it makes perfect sense that google and amazon are next.

    It its not corporations fault that the EU has such a tax system which allows each EU country to set their own tax laws and thus complete with the other EU countries for corporations businesses, using lower taxes as an incentive. We have that here it the US, where each State can compete for corporations businesses with lower taxes. You don't see CA suing TX for drawing corporations business away from CA, with lower taxes as an incentive. But over there in the EU, France and Germany will sue Ireland for having lower taxes that attracts more corporations businesses. 

    If the EU thinks US corporations are not paying their "fair share", then change the tax laws. So long as corporations are paying what they legally owe in taxes, they are paying their "fair share". 

    And just how is the EU fining US corporations based on their global revenue, if they were to violate EU laws, a "fair share"? Shouldn't  a "fair share" for the EU fine be based on the revenue generated in the EU?  What makes the EU think they deserve to fine a US corporation based on their global revenue, other than a very distorted definition of ..... "fair share".  What's next, the EU will fine US corporations for violating laws in other countries that are not in the EU, just in case the corporations were thinking about violating the same law in the EU? 

    And even in the EU, its citizens ends up paying corporations taxes and the added VAT tax on top of it. Don't come crying when a $1K (US) iPhone in the US cost the equivalent of $1.2K (US) in the EU. Plus the extra $40(US) added in VAT.  

    Or maybe the EU will also dictate how much US corporations can charge for their products. Just like how the EU limit the profits pharmaceuticals companies can make on their drugs. Thus forcing pharmaceuticals to make nearly all their profits in the US, with way higher prescription drug prices for US citizens. And some of the World's largest and most profitable pharmaceuticals are in the EU and profit greatly from this arrangement. 

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/05/02/america_needs_to_stop_subsidizing_europe_and_canadas_prescription_drugs.html

    https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/529049-america-is-subsidizing-europes-socialist-medicine-with-higher-drug-prices/

    It's about time the US pass laws regulating drug prices, like they do in the EU, specially drugs by EU pharmaceuticals and force the EU to pay their "fair share". 

    Thank you for taking the time to answer. 


    In short you don’t know what you are talking about.


    These things, both the tech tax and pharmaceutical price gauging thing you bring up, although infinitely nuanced are not that complicated in their essence, as long as you can see the big picture.


    Tech companies starting just now are no longer the biggest/most important export business of the US to the EU and hence given limited/finite resources, the protectionism of US interests will shift to US oil and gas. So for a limited time its open season on apple and google. Let the games begin.

  • Reply 32 of 62
    Nothing sounds ridiculous. 
    If implemented well, it won’t mean much change for most people that like iOS as it is. Choice is good though so it all sounds reasonable so far. 
    wunderfitz
  • Reply 33 of 62
    Madbum said:
    Actually EU is one of Apple smaller markets compared to North America and Asia

    Much of the EU uses cheap android phones

    Actually Apple
    might just leave the EU because their share is so small there. UK is the biggest market and they are no longer in the EU

    say what you will about China or India , they don’t do this retarded shit to Apple

    AND

    Reading what EU is acting like communists and trying to destroy Apple  make me kind of want Putin to destroy Europe …

    Wow - you really don't like Europe, do you? And don't really understand what this proposed legislation is about, do you?

    For God's Sake - the EU just wants to foster CHOICE !
    Why is this so hard to grasp? The US paved the way by breaking up Bell and ordering Microsoft to stop their anticompetitive behavior with IE? Is it so insulting to you that this time it is happening in another part of the world?

    The number and the tone of comments from huffy Americans in this forum is absolutely amazing - people who think that milk is produced in bottles, electricity comes from power outlets, that the economy will regulate itself for the best of mankind, and that there's really not much outside of the USA. 

    Hint: none of this is true!

    Siri and Apple Maps suck WATERMELONS outside of your bubble. You probably don't know, because so many US Americans speak at most one language or have never been outside of their country. ½ of the time, Siri gleefully replies "look what I found on the Internet", when I want it to do something a PA should do (and which looks SOOO easy and convenient on Apple's commercials). It is not so helpful if you speak another language, and when you're driving at 130 mph on the highway and have to read on a smartphone what you could have essentially googled.

    10+% of POIs on Apple Maps went out of business AGES ago (Google is much, much more up-to-date). Stop telling the rest of the world that "Apple Maps is the best way to explore and navigate the world" - it is NOT! It still isn't - at least outside of the US - even 10 years after it went live. I will decide against the polished eye candy from Apple Maps as long as Google Maps and other apps are more USEFUL.

    I am SOOOO glad I can use Google Maps on my iPhone, and I want it to stay that way. And if I get more choice on how to pay, search, navigate or do other stuff with my iPhone, I'll have it!

    Yes, I love my iPhone and my iMac. I had a company S6 and a private iPhone 7 and convinced the company that iPhones are more useful, and will save us money in the long run, because I could prove that we have fewer support issues on iOS. I will continue using the Apple App Store because I totally get Apple's point in this matter, and I will buy other Apple products. But I will continue to embrace other apps (like Google Maps) as they work so much better for me than Apple-branded apps which simply aren't as good as the competition.

    Google is a US American Company as well - so this is not about "you" against "us", "Americans" against "Europeans" (who should get destroyed by Putin). It's about CHOICE, and allowing each individual to decide for themselves what works best for them. Are you so offended because someone else is advocating a change in terms this time?

    Apple leaving the "EU because their share is so small there"? In your dreams. Yes, Europeans like Apple's (or Samsung's) smartphones like the next person in this world. And Apple likes our money.
    So go to your corner and continue to sulk there while the rest of the world moves on.

    BTW, "UK is the biggest market and they are no longer in the EU": you're mixing up "market" with market share. UK population: 67 million. EU population: 448 million.  
    edited April 2022 pdeavon b7muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 34 of 62
    A lot of this seems like a land grab by the EU… BUT… bringing some competition for still abysmally bad Siri on iOS is a good thing. Siri will get much better quickly with competition. Siri is still going nowhere fast compared to competitors because it has no iOS integrated voice assistant competition.  Look at the dramatic improvement in Maps given Waze and Google Maps are easily used on iOS.  I for one will not be using alternatives to Siri because of security issues and tracking in the competitor products.
    wunderfitz
  • Reply 35 of 62
    Cool. The pressure is on. Maybe apple will now contemplate paying its fair share in taxes to European countries it operates in to make this bill more palatable. When you steal from the hand that feeds you time after time again something like this was inevitable and it makes perfect sense that google and amazon are next.
    Orrrrrr …. Just an idea … maybe get your member states to fix their tax laws and stop screwing each other over?
    Intent here is everything. There is no question that it takes two to tango but the one leading the dance is apple/google/amazon/samsung. Their intent is to cheat full stop. 

    Their actions are clear but somehow their are those who think: “wow thats how to make money, well one day I’ll do the same so this method better still be available to me then” or “well the stock will go up and I’ll make a bunch” Some might call you a hypocrite. I do not I could call you an enabler, a sympathiser, an accomplice. I don’t. My choice of words is to call you ‘willing fools’. Their is historical context to this you could look it up.
    wunderfitz
  • Reply 36 of 62
    bulk001bulk001 Posts: 770member
    All of you whiners probably using Macs that allow you to download software from any vendor, all using their own payment systems. You probably use multiple browsers (because, Safari) and your macs are no less (or more) secure for it. This just brings the iPhone to parity with the Mac. If you are terrified by this for some reason you can just download apps from the official store and done. But once you can get the same software at 30% cheaper directly from the developer, rather than Apple, I suspect many of you will while complaining bitterly here about it as you do. 
    wunderfitz
  • Reply 37 of 62
    bulk001bulk001 Posts: 770member
    crowley said:
    Oh no, not changes to Siri!
    Funny! 
  • Reply 38 of 62
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 3,612member
    wunderfitz said:
    For God's Sake - the EU just wants to foster CHOICE ! 
    "The EU just wants to foster choice"? So what happens if Apple leaves the EU as a result of the intrusions on Apple's product and service design? How does that foster choice? It seems like the exact opposite to me. Choice exists because of freedom, not because of rules and decrees.
    edited April 2022 watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 62
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 3,612member
    davidw said:
    Cool. The pressure is on. Maybe apple will now contemplate paying its fair share in taxes to European countries it operates in to make this bill more palatable. When you steal from the hand that feeds you time after time again something like this was inevitable and it makes perfect sense that google and amazon are next.

    It its not corporations fault that the EU has such a tax system which allows each EU country to set their own tax laws and thus complete with the other EU countries for corporations businesses, using lower taxes as an incentive. We have that here it the US, where each State can compete for corporations businesses with lower taxes. You don't see CA suing TX for drawing corporations business away from CA, with lower taxes as an incentive. But over there in the EU, France and Germany will sue Ireland for having lower taxes that attracts more corporations businesses. 

    If the EU thinks US corporations are not paying their "fair share", then change the tax laws. So long as corporations are paying what they legally owe in taxes, they are paying their "fair share". 

    And just how is the EU fining US corporations based on their global revenue, if they were to violate EU laws, a "fair share"? Shouldn't  a "fair share" for the EU fine be based on the revenue generated in the EU?  What makes the EU think they deserve to fine a US corporation based on their global revenue, other than a very distorted definition of ..... "fair share".  What's next, the EU will fine US corporations for violating laws in other countries that are not in the EU, just in case the corporations were thinking about violating the same law in the EU? 

    And even in the EU, its citizens ends up paying corporations taxes and the added VAT tax on top of it. Don't come crying when a $1K (US) iPhone in the US cost the equivalent of $1.2K (US) in the EU. Plus the extra $40(US) added in VAT.  

    Or maybe the EU will also dictate how much US corporations can charge for their products. Just like how the EU limit the profits pharmaceuticals companies can make on their drugs. Thus forcing pharmaceuticals to make nearly all their profits in the US, with way higher prescription drug prices for US citizens. And some of the World's largest and most profitable pharmaceuticals are in the EU and profit greatly from this arrangement. 

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2019/05/02/america_needs_to_stop_subsidizing_europe_and_canadas_prescription_drugs.html

    https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/529049-america-is-subsidizing-europes-socialist-medicine-with-higher-drug-prices/

    It's about time the US pass laws regulating drug prices, like they do in the EU, specially drugs by EU pharmaceuticals and force the EU to pay their "fair share". 

    Thank you for taking the time to answer. 

    In short you don’t know what you are talking about.

    These things, both the tech tax and pharmaceutical price gauging thing you bring up, although infinitely nuanced are not that complicated in their essence, as long as you can see the big picture.

    Tech companies starting just now are no longer the biggest/most important export business of the US to the EU and hence given limited/finite resources, the protectionism of US interests will shift to US oil and gas. So for a limited time its open season on apple and google. Let the games begin.

    I was looking forward to reading your reply to his thoughtful post. However I saw nothing thoughtful in your reply.
    slow n easywatto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 62
    wunderfitz said:
    For God's Sake - the EU just wants to foster CHOICE ! 
    "The EU just wants to foster choice"? So what happens if Apple leaves the EU as a result of the intrusions on Apple's product and service design? How does that foster choice? It seems like the exact opposite to me. Choice exists because of freedom, not because of rules and decrees.
    Geez - what are you smoking?

    Do you know how many BILLIONS of taxes Apple is sidestepping in Europe?
    I'm not asking because I think Apple or Big Tech are unfairly avoiding taxes (which we all know they are), or because I advocate the EU tax "system" (which we all know is a mess).
    I'm asking because "based on a detailed investigation, the [EU] commission found Apple was able to effectively reduce its tax bill on the sales and activities of some of its European and global operations to 0.005%" (The Washington Post, July 15th 2020). This allows them to avoid paying 15 BILLION USD in back taxes. 

    Can you IMAGINE what their revenue is in Europe? And what would happen to Apple's value if they pulled out of Europe?

    Your argument is just as inane as someone asking "What if VW pulled out of the US, because they feel treated unfairly by US regulators over the emissions scandal?".

    As if a company could "punish" a group of countries by withholding their products.

    Will VW pull out of the US because your courts are so mean, and withhold German cars from the US market so that they can continue to spew more emissions into the atmosphere without punishment?  Ridiculous, right? But perhaps useful to adjust your perspective. The only thing Courts are telling VW is to abide by ecological standards and environmental laws. The US will still be an important market and be good business. But OF COURSE VW will complain.
     
    Will Apple pull out of Europe because regulators want them to ALLOW CHOICE? Well - time will tell, but I think you know as well as I do, that Apple can still make a good buck even if they abide by antitrust regulations. And having a big, blank spot on one of the world's mega markets with roughly 450 MILLION citizens (and that's without the UK) is bad for their image AND their balance sheet. But OF COURSE, Apple (and madbum) will complain and melt into tears.

    And what if VW or Apple actually WERE to pull out of the US / the EU respectively?

    The world will continue to turn. Even without VW in the US or Apple in Europe. You will buy some GM or Japanese car instead, and Europeans will buy Samsung, and we'll all survive. We all have other fish to fry.

    Oh - and one more thing.... "Choice exists because of freedom, not because of rules and decrees": 
    I'm assuming you are a US citizen... The fact that today you are able to choose between AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile for your telecommunication needs, between Chevron, Mobil / ExxonMobil, etc. for your gasoline needs, between Edge, Safari, Opera, Chrome, and Firefox for your browsing needs was LARGELY brought about by regulations and decrees.

    Once again - it's called CHOICE - and YOU invented it (thank you, actually!)
    edited April 2022 muthuk_vanalingam
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