European Union could enact, enforce major new antitrust rules by early 2023

AppleInsiderAppleInsider
Posted:
in General Discussion
Significant new antitrust regulations in the European Union, which could force Apple and others to make sweeping changes to its business, are now expected to come into effect in early 2023.

European Union flags
European Union flags


Previously, the EU was planning on implementing the regulations in the fall. Despite the pushed-back timeline, EU antitrust chief Margrethe Vestager said that enforcements against unruly "gatekeepers" could arrive soon after, TechCrunch has reported.

Those regulations are included in the Digital Markets Act, a proposal to enact new rules that would rein in the power of tech giants. In Apple's case, the DMA could compel the company to make major c changes to the App Store, Siri, and more.

"The DMA will enter into force next spring and we are getting ready for enforcement as soon as the first notifications come in," Vestager said in a speech in Berlin on Thursday.

Some of the more significant changes to Apple's business model could include forcing the company to allow users to download apps from outside of the App Store. More recent additions to the DMA could require Apple to make iMessage and FaceTime interoperable with other communications platforms, such as WhatsApp.

Prior to Thursday, it wasn't clear when exactly enforcement would come into effect after the proposal was enacted. Some estimates suggested that it could take months for the EU to enforce its new rules. Vestager, however, made it clear that the EU is preparing to enforce the rules soon after the DMA takes effect.

"This next chapter is exciting. It means a lot of concrete preparations 's about setting up new structures within the Commission, pooling resources ... based on relevant experience," Vestager said. "It's about hiring staff. It's about preparing the IT systems. It's about drafting further legal texts on procedures or notification forms. Our teams are currently busy with all these preparations and we're aiming to come forward with the new structures very soon."

EU lawmakers approved the DMA provisionally back in March. It must still be approved by the European Parliament and the European Council before it's enacted.

Per the DMA, however, gatekeeping companies that are out of compliance could face fines totaling up to 10% of their total worldwide annual revenue. That rises to 20% for repeat offenders.

Apple is under increasing antitrust scrutiny not just in the EU, but also in the U.S., Japan, South Korea, and the Netherlands.

Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 16
    darkvaderdarkvader Posts: 1,146member
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
  • Reply 2 of 16
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,299member
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    edited May 2022 scstrrfdarelrexaderutterDogpersonbshank
  • Reply 3 of 16
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,999member
    rob53 said:
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    It's not arrogance. It's a dissuasory measure which seeks to ensure fines have proportionate impact on companies who are deemed to be not complying with EU law.

    I sure you have no issues when Apple re-directs money earned within the EU to non-EU destinations in an effort to lessen tax burdens. 

    These are not 'anti-Apple' practices. They are applied to many different companies and when you look at fines, logically, most of those are actually against EU companies. 
    spheric
  • Reply 4 of 16
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,299member
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    It's not arrogance. It's a dissuasory measure which seeks to ensure fines have proportionate impact on companies who are deemed to be not complying with EU law.

    I sure you have no issues when Apple re-directs money earned within the EU to non-EU destinations in an effort to lessen tax burdens. 

    These are not 'anti-Apple' practices. They are applied to many different companies and when you look at fines, logically, most of those are actually against EU companies. 
    It’s a common practice in the US to locate in a state with lower state and local taxes. Still have to pay federal taxes but I refuse to believe this practice isn’t done in every country. If you’re a stock holder of any company it’s the responsibility of that company to make money, including finding ways to reduce taxes. Apple’s use of Ireland was legal when they entered into their agreement. It’s my understanding the EU changed the rules afterwards, maybe specifically to grab money from Apple. It wouldn’t be the first time a country did a money grab. 
    aderutterDogpersonbshank
  • Reply 5 of 16
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,927member
    What a bunch of clowns. Users have a choice. They could go with Apple with all the limitations or with Android where it’s a free for all. The market chose Apple. No one is forced to buy Apple. Apple didn’t put up barriers to entry. 
    rob53darelrexaderutterDogpersonbshank
  • Reply 6 of 16
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,999member
    rob53 said:
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    It's not arrogance. It's a dissuasory measure which seeks to ensure fines have proportionate impact on companies who are deemed to be not complying with EU law.

    I sure you have no issues when Apple re-directs money earned within the EU to non-EU destinations in an effort to lessen tax burdens. 

    These are not 'anti-Apple' practices. They are applied to many different companies and when you look at fines, logically, most of those are actually against EU companies. 
    It’s a common practice in the US to locate in a state with lower state and local taxes. Still have to pay federal taxes but I refuse to believe this practice isn’t done in every country. If you’re a stock holder of any company it’s the responsibility of that company to make money, including finding ways to reduce taxes. Apple’s use of Ireland was legal when they entered into their agreement. It’s my understanding the EU changed the rules afterwards, maybe specifically to grab money from Apple. It wouldn’t be the first time a country did a money grab. 
    It's clear that you see it as perfectly fine that money is taken out of the realm of the EU as a way of reducing financial obligations. The legality/morality of those operations is open to debate another day.

    The point was that Apple using non-EU destinations was OK for you. At least when it benefitted Apple. However, when the EU applies measures that also take into account non-EU destinations, but which wouldn't benefit Apple, it isn't OK for you.


    edited May 2022 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 7 of 16
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,674member
    rob53 said:
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    I think you're confusing two issues here. This is not about access to NFC hardware; this is about the App Store exclusivity. 

    A wonderful side-note worth mentioning is that the push by the EU to force Apple to open NFC access to other payment methods was driven BY PAYPAL. 

    The good old European Union, so envious of Apple's success, and always after their money. <——> Paypal.

    Hmm. 

    And fines can be set to whatever who's setting them wants. The idea of a fine is to HURT enough to make people stop doing something.

    It's really cute that you honestly appear to believe that setting a fine on somebody has anything to do with "authority over anything outside the EU". Seriously, that's kinda sweet. Aww. 
    bshank
  • Reply 8 of 16
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,299member
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    It's not arrogance. It's a dissuasory measure which seeks to ensure fines have proportionate impact on companies who are deemed to be not complying with EU law.

    I sure you have no issues when Apple re-directs money earned within the EU to non-EU destinations in an effort to lessen tax burdens. 

    These are not 'anti-Apple' practices. They are applied to many different companies and when you look at fines, logically, most of those are actually against EU companies. 
    It’s a common practice in the US to locate in a state with lower state and local taxes. Still have to pay federal taxes but I refuse to believe this practice isn’t done in every country. If you’re a stock holder of any company it’s the responsibility of that company to make money, including finding ways to reduce taxes. Apple’s use of Ireland was legal when they entered into their agreement. It’s my understanding the EU changed the rules afterwards, maybe specifically to grab money from Apple. It wouldn’t be the first time a country did a money grab. 
    It's clear that you see it as perfectly fine that money is taken out of the realm of the EU as a way of reducing financial obligations. The legality/morality of those operations is open to debate another day.

    The point was that Apple using non-EU destinations was OK for you. At least when it benefitted Apple. However, when the EU applied measures that also took into account non-EU destinations, but which wouldn't benefit Apple, it isn't OK for you.


    Customers buying Apple products pay local taxes. I’m sure Apple Pay’s import duties. Why should Apple have to pay extra when all they’re doing is importing goods? As for bogus anti-trust activities, that’s the money the EU is doing. As others have said, everyone has a choice. What I dislike is countries demanding other companies have access to Apple products. Tell me why they should. If I make a computer product should I be forced to allow others to add software to it? If so, why?
    Dogpersonbshank
  • Reply 9 of 16
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,674member
    rob53 said:
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    It's not arrogance. It's a dissuasory measure which seeks to ensure fines have proportionate impact on companies who are deemed to be not complying with EU law.

    I sure you have no issues when Apple re-directs money earned within the EU to non-EU destinations in an effort to lessen tax burdens. 

    These are not 'anti-Apple' practices. They are applied to many different companies and when you look at fines, logically, most of those are actually against EU companies. 
    It’s a common practice in the US to locate in a state with lower state and local taxes. Still have to pay federal taxes but I refuse to believe this practice isn’t done in every country. If you’re a stock holder of any company it’s the responsibility of that company to make money, including finding ways to reduce taxes. Apple’s use of Ireland was legal when they entered into their agreement. It’s my understanding the EU changed the rules afterwards, maybe specifically to grab money from Apple. It wouldn’t be the first time a country did a money grab. 
    It's clear that you see it as perfectly fine that money is taken out of the realm of the EU as a way of reducing financial obligations. The legality/morality of those operations is open to debate another day.

    The point was that Apple using non-EU destinations was OK for you. At least when it benefitted Apple. However, when the EU applied measures that also took into account non-EU destinations, but which wouldn't benefit Apple, it isn't OK for you.


    Customers buying Apple products pay local taxes. I’m sure Apple Pay’s import duties. Why should Apple have to pay extra when all they’re doing is importing goods? As for bogus anti-trust activities, that’s the money the EU is doing. As others have said, everyone has a choice. What I dislike is countries demanding other companies have access to Apple products. Tell me why they should. If I make a computer product should I be forced to allow others to add software to it? If so, why?
    So you're confusing a tax paid by CUSTOMERS (VAT) with taxes due from the company SELLING them stuff, which is determined by a balance of profits, revenues, holdings, properties, expenses, employee wages, and various write-offs. That includes figuring import duties against profits, btw. But import duties aren't taxes, and they're completely different things from, say, corporate tax. 

    Claiming that Apple is doing is "importing goods", and not actually turning a profit in Europe (which they would be taxed on), while they have had operational headquarters here for four decades and are running dozens and dozens of brick-and-mortar stores, is just insane. 

    As for why you should be forced to allow others to add software to your computer platform: That rather depends upon what you're making, what your market position is, what you're doing with that market position, and whether you're unfairly disadvantaging other companies with your behaviour. 

    You may not be old enough to remember Internet Explorer and Netscape, but there was a bit of brouhaha regarding those back in the day — and in the United States, too, btw. 
    edited May 2022 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 10 of 16
    mjtomlinmjtomlin Posts: 2,689member

    "Even though there's a much larger platform with all the capabilities we're looking for, we don't like Apple [making so much money], so let's just make a bunch of laws that make their vertically integrated, proprietary products illegal, because for some reason consumers seem to like them, but we think, for all the wrong reasons, so we need to step in and tell these consumers they're wrong and give them something they'll like much better." EU turns its head towards PayPal and Spotify and asks, "How does that sound?"

    Apple should just install Android on all new EU iPhones and call it a day. That's what the EU is pushing for anyway; for iOS to be more open like Android.


    And in the US, lawmakers there have turned their attention towards the auto industry and recently proclaimed, "We think all car manufacturers should only make pick up trucks, because all those people who chose to buy sedans can't haul as much and are constantly asking their truck owning friends and family for help. So we're stepping in and taking that choice away!  And... Companies that make truck bed liners will have a much bigger target market."
    edited May 2022 bshank
  • Reply 11 of 16
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,106member
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    It's not arrogance. It's a dissuasory measure which seeks to ensure fines have proportionate impact on companies who are deemed to be not complying with EU law.

    I sure you have no issues when Apple re-directs money earned within the EU to non-EU destinations in an effort to lessen tax burdens. 

    These are not 'anti-Apple' practices. They are applied to many different companies and when you look at fines, logically, most of those are actually against EU companies. 
    I didn't realize Ireland was "non-EU"? The EU allow foreign corporations to set up their EU HQ in any EU country. Apple EU HQ is in Cork, Ireland. Where Apple pays their EU corporate tax on their EU profits. Ireland just happens to have a lower corporate tax than the bigger EU countries like Germany, France. Spain, Italy and formally the UK. The corporate tax rate in France is 26%, Germany is at 30% Spain is at 25%, Italy is at 28% and formally the UK is at 19%. Ireland corporate tax is at 12.5%. Soon to be 15% not because of the EU commission bitching about it. But because Ireland agreed to charge the minimum international tax rate of 15% set by the OECD.

    https://applescoop.org/story/did-you-know-that-apple-has-a-campus-in-cork-ireland

    https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/7/22715229/ireland-status-tax-haven-google-facebook-apple

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/oecd.asp

    The EU commission is set up to favor the larger countries in the EU. They don't like it when smaller countries like Ireland set lower tax rates to compete for foreign corporation business, away from the likes of Germany, France, Spain. Italy, etc.. The EU thinks Apple and other large US corporations, should be paying more taxes in the EU, than they are legally required to pay. So rather than to go against their own policy of allowing each EU country to set their own tax rates, (so long as it don't violate EU "State Aide" laws), they will find some other ways to go after the big US techs money, to make up for what they think these corporations should be paying in EU taxes. Only in the EU is it "illegal", for corporations to find ways to pay the least corporate tax, that is legally allowed.  

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/25/21456383/eu-commission-appeal-taxes-ireland

    Do you have an issue with Volkswagen, the largest auto maker in the World, building their US factory in TN, after receiving substantial tax breaks? Should the US Federal government go after them for "avoiding" taxes? 

    https://www.goodjobsfirst.org/volkswagen’s-tennessee-subsidy-deal-are-taxpayers-being-taken-ride

    And you are wrong about the EU concern that Apple is re-directing profits made in the EU to non-EU country. With Apple, their main concern is Apple legally paying a lower EU corporate tax rate, than they see as "fair share". They are more concern about profits made in the EU and not taxed in the EU, by corporations like Google, Facebook and Amazon. They  makes a great deal of profit selling digital goods like targeted ads over the internet, to EU citizens but reporting the profit from those services in the US (or some other country). Apple do make some profit selling digital goods (iTunes Music Store, ATV+, Streaming movie rentals iBooks, etc.) in the EU, but hardly worth going after, compare to their profits from selling physicals goods in EU Apple Stores. The EU is saying that corporations sell digits goods over the internet in the EU, are not paying their fair share of the profit they made in the EU, to the EU. Which is why there's the DST (Digital Service Tax). But the EU do benefit from collecting a VAT on those services.  

    https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/digital-services-tax-why-the-world-is-watching

    Right now the US do not impose a digital service tax. So would you have an issue with Spotify (if they were profitable) not having to pay tax to the US, on the profits they made selling their subscriptions to US citizens? I'm sure they pay their corporate tax on their profits (if any) in Sweden but should the US also tax some of that corporate profit because a good chunk of it would had been made in the US? And you guessed it, the DTA in the EU, like the DMA, mainly targets the 5 big US techs.  

    Show me where Volkswagen, the World's largest auto manufacturer, will be fined a percentage of their Global revenue, if they were to violate any EU regulations. You can't, because these type of fines are only levied to "gatekeepers" and we all know who are the "gatekeepers" under the DMA. By DMA design, they do not include any EU companies.  

    https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/big-fines-can-scare-big-tech-but-enforcing-digital-markets-act-is-key-8211-experts-69620415

    "Unlike the up-to-4% cuts from worldwide annual revenue that can be enforced under the GDPR, the DMA would impose penalties of 10% of global revenue and 20% for repeat offenders."

    The GDPR do not apply to all EU companies. Just the ones dealing with citizens privacy. 

    https://gdpr.eu/what-is-gdpr/
    edited May 2022
  • Reply 12 of 16
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,999member
    davidw said:
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    It's not arrogance. It's a dissuasory measure which seeks to ensure fines have proportionate impact on companies who are deemed to be not complying with EU law.

    I sure you have no issues when Apple re-directs money earned within the EU to non-EU destinations in an effort to lessen tax burdens. 

    These are not 'anti-Apple' practices. They are applied to many different companies and when you look at fines, logically, most of those are actually against EU companies. 
    I didn't realize Ireland was "non-EU"? The EU allow foreign corporations to set up their EU HQ in any EU country. Apple EU HQ is in Cork, Ireland. Where Apple pays their EU corporate tax on their EU profits. Ireland just happens to have a lower corporate tax than the bigger EU countries like Germany, France. Spain, Italy and formally the UK. The corporate tax rate in France is 26%, Germany is at 30% Spain is at 25%, Italy is at 28% and formally the UK is at 19%. Ireland corporate tax is at 12.5%. Soon to be 15% not because of the EU commission bitching about it. But because Ireland agreed to charge the minimum international tax rate of 15% set by the OECD.

    https://applescoop.org/story/did-you-know-that-apple-has-a-campus-in-cork-ireland

    https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/7/22715229/ireland-status-tax-haven-google-facebook-apple

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/oecd.asp

    The EU commission is set up to favor the larger countries in the EU. They don't like it when smaller countries like Ireland set lower tax rates to compete for foreign corporation business, away from the likes of Germany, France, Spain. Italy, etc.. The EU thinks Apple and other large US corporations, should be paying more taxes in the EU, than they are legally required to pay. So rather than to go against their own policy of allowing each EU country to set their own tax rates, (so long as it don't violate EU "State Aide" laws), they will find some other ways to go after the big US techs money, to make up for what they think these corporations should be paying in EU taxes. Only in the EU is it "illegal", for corporations to find ways to pay the least corporate tax, that is legally allowed.  

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/25/21456383/eu-commission-appeal-taxes-ireland

    Do you have an issue with Volkswagen, the largest auto maker in the World, building their US factory in TN, after receiving substantial tax breaks? Should the US Federal government go after them for "avoiding" taxes? 

    https://www.goodjobsfirst.org/volkswagen’s-tennessee-subsidy-deal-are-taxpayers-being-taken-ride

    And you are wrong about the EU concern that Apple is re-directing profits made in the EU to non-EU country. With Apple, their main concern is Apple legally paying a lower EU corporate tax rate, than they see as "fair share". They are more concern about profits made in the EU and not taxed in the EU, by corporations like Google, Facebook and Amazon. They  makes a great deal of profit selling digital goods like targeted ads over the internet, to EU citizens but reporting the profit from those services in the US (or some other country). Apple do make some profit selling digital goods (iTunes Music Store, ATV+, Streaming movie rentals iBooks, etc.) in the EU, but hardly worth going after, compare to their profits from selling physicals goods in EU Apple Stores. The EU is saying that corporations sell digits goods over the internet in the EU, are not paying their fair share of the profit they made in the EU, to the EU. Which is why there's the DST (Digital Service Tax). But the EU do benefit from collecting a VAT on those services.  

    https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/digital-services-tax-why-the-world-is-watching

    Right now the US do not impose a digital service tax. So would you have an issue with Spotify (if they were profitable) not having to pay tax to the US, on the profits they made selling their subscriptions to US citizens? I'm sure they pay their corporate tax on their profits (if any) in Sweden but should the US also tax some of that corporate profit because a good chunk of it would had been made in the US? And you guessed it, the DTA in the EU, like the DMA, mainly targets the 5 big US techs.  

    Show me where Volkswagen, the World's largest auto manufacturer, will be fined a percentage of their Global revenue, if they were to violate any EU regulations. You can't, because these type of fines are only levied to "gatekeepers" and we all know who are the "gatekeepers" under the DMA. By DMA design, they do not include any EU companies.  

    https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/big-fines-can-scare-big-tech-but-enforcing-digital-markets-act-is-key-8211-experts-69620415

    "Unlike the up-to-4% cuts from worldwide annual revenue that can be enforced under the GDPR, the DMA would impose penalties of 10% of global revenue and 20% for repeat offenders."

    The GDPR do not apply to all EU companies. Just the ones dealing with citizens privacy. 

    https://gdpr.eu/what-is-gdpr/
    You are talking about what Apple 'makes available' for taxation in Ireland. 

    Isn't it great that a company can choose what it makes available for taxation? 

    The rest is far, far away from the EU. 

    gatorguymuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 13 of 16
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,674member
    Volkswagen is probably a bad example, because a) damages were claimed after the fact, and not fines imposed to get them to stop damaging behaviour, and b) they were in legal hot water all over the world, so punitive damages and fines were imposed by virtually every place they do business, individually. 

    As for setting punitive damages by percentage of global revenue — this is not so unusual, not specific to Europe. As I recall, the famous “hot coffee” MacDonald’s lawsuit resulted in punitive damages equivalent to two days’ worth of profits made on the sale of hot coffee globally. The decision was appealed and the fine reduced, but that was the initial ruling. By a civil court in the United States, no less. 

    The GDPR does de facto apply to ALL EU companies, btw, as it also concerns employee information, as well as all client information. There is literally no way to do business without keeping *somebody’s* personal identification — be it a phone number or an email address —, so GDPR always applies in some form. 
    edited May 2022 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 14 of 16
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,622member
    davidw said:
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    It's not arrogance. It's a dissuasory measure which seeks to ensure fines have proportionate impact on companies who are deemed to be not complying with EU law.

    I sure you have no issues when Apple re-directs money earned within the EU to non-EU destinations in an effort to lessen tax burdens. 

    These are not 'anti-Apple' practices. They are applied to many different companies and when you look at fines, logically, most of those are actually against EU companies. 
    I didn't realize Ireland was "non-EU"? The EU allow foreign corporations to set up their EU HQ in any EU country. Apple EU HQ is in Cork, Ireland. Where Apple pays their EU corporate tax on their EU profits. Ireland just happens to have a lower corporate tax than the bigger EU countries like Germany, France. Spain, Italy and formally the UK. The corporate tax rate in France is 26%, Germany is at 30% Spain is at 25%, Italy is at 28% and formally the UK is at 19%. Ireland corporate tax is at 12.5%. Soon to be 15% not because of the EU commission bitching about it. But because Ireland agreed to charge the minimum international tax rate of 15% set by the OECD.

    https://applescoop.org/story/did-you-know-that-apple-has-a-campus-in-cork-ireland

    https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/7/22715229/ireland-status-tax-haven-google-facebook-apple

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/o/oecd.asp

    The EU commission is set up to favor the larger countries in the EU. They don't like it when smaller countries like Ireland set lower tax rates to compete for foreign corporation business, away from the likes of Germany, France, Spain. Italy, etc.. The EU thinks Apple and other large US corporations, should be paying more taxes in the EU, than they are legally required to pay. So rather than to go against their own policy of allowing each EU country to set their own tax rates, (so long as it don't violate EU "State Aide" laws), they will find some other ways to go after the big US techs money, to make up for what they think these corporations should be paying in EU taxes. Only in the EU is it "illegal", for corporations to find ways to pay the least corporate tax, that is legally allowed.  

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/25/21456383/eu-commission-appeal-taxes-ireland

    Do you have an issue with Volkswagen, the largest auto maker in the World, building their US factory in TN, after receiving substantial tax breaks? Should the US Federal government go after them for "avoiding" taxes? 

    https://www.goodjobsfirst.org/volkswagen’s-tennessee-subsidy-deal-are-taxpayers-being-taken-ride

    And you are wrong about the EU concern that Apple is re-directing profits made in the EU to non-EU country. With Apple, their main concern is Apple legally paying a lower EU corporate tax rate, than they see as "fair share". They are more concern about profits made in the EU and not taxed in the EU, by corporations like Google, Facebook and Amazon. They  makes a great deal of profit selling digital goods like targeted ads over the internet, to EU citizens but reporting the profit from those services in the US (or some other country). Apple do make some profit selling digital goods (iTunes Music Store, ATV+, Streaming movie rentals iBooks, etc.) in the EU, but hardly worth going after, compare to their profits from selling physicals goods in EU Apple Stores. The EU is saying that corporations sell digits goods over the internet in the EU, are not paying their fair share of the profit they made in the EU, to the EU. Which is why there's the DST (Digital Service Tax). But the EU do benefit from collecting a VAT on those services.  

    https://news.bloombergtax.com/daily-tax-report/digital-services-tax-why-the-world-is-watching

    Right now the US do not impose a digital service tax. So would you have an issue with Spotify (if they were profitable) not having to pay tax to the US, on the profits they made selling their subscriptions to US citizens? I'm sure they pay their corporate tax on their profits (if any) in Sweden but should the US also tax some of that corporate profit because a good chunk of it would had been made in the US? And you guessed it, the DTA in the EU, like the DMA, mainly targets the 5 big US techs.  

    Show me where Volkswagen, the World's largest auto manufacturer, will be fined a percentage of their Global revenue, if they were to violate any EU regulations. You can't, because these type of fines are only levied to "gatekeepers" and we all know who are the "gatekeepers" under the DMA. By DMA design, they do not include any EU companies.  

    https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/big-fines-can-scare-big-tech-but-enforcing-digital-markets-act-is-key-8211-experts-69620415

    "Unlike the up-to-4% cuts from worldwide annual revenue that can be enforced under the GDPR, the DMA would impose penalties of 10% of global revenue and 20% for repeat offenders."

    The GDPR do not apply to all EU companies. Just the ones dealing with citizens privacy. 

    https://gdpr.eu/what-is-gdpr/
    I'd suggest to you, based on an AI article posted today regarding the Irish subsidiary AOI, that your understanding of where and how much Apple pays in corporate taxes for products and services registered "overseas" may be incomplete and therefore misunderstood. 
    edited May 2022 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 15 of 16
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,674member
    rob53 said:
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    avon b7 said:
    rob53 said:
    darkvader said:
    This is absolutely needed.  Hopefully the EU will pull it off.
    Baloney. The EU is deflecting from all the BS they’re involved in. Apple has a product just like all other companies. The EU simply wants Apple’s money and access to their hardware without paying for it. 

    The arrogance of the EU to attempt to fine these companies based on worldwide revenue is blatantly wrong. The EU has no authority over anything outside the EU and any attempt to do this needs to stop. They are trying to rule the world. Time for them to go away. 
    It's not arrogance. It's a dissuasory measure which seeks to ensure fines have proportionate impact on companies who are deemed to be not complying with EU law.

    I sure you have no issues when Apple re-directs money earned within the EU to non-EU destinations in an effort to lessen tax burdens. 

    These are not 'anti-Apple' practices. They are applied to many different companies and when you look at fines, logically, most of those are actually against EU companies. 
    It’s a common practice in the US to locate in a state with lower state and local taxes. Still have to pay federal taxes but I refuse to believe this practice isn’t done in every country. If you’re a stock holder of any company it’s the responsibility of that company to make money, including finding ways to reduce taxes. Apple’s use of Ireland was legal when they entered into their agreement. It’s my understanding the EU changed the rules afterwards, maybe specifically to grab money from Apple. It wouldn’t be the first time a country did a money grab. 
    It's clear that you see it as perfectly fine that money is taken out of the realm of the EU as a way of reducing financial obligations. The legality/morality of those operations is open to debate another day.

    The point was that Apple using non-EU destinations was OK for you. At least when it benefitted Apple. However, when the EU applied measures that also took into account non-EU destinations, but which wouldn't benefit Apple, it isn't OK for you.


    Customers buying Apple products pay local taxes. I’m sure Apple Pay’s import duties. Why should Apple have to pay extra when all they’re doing is importing goods? As for bogus anti-trust activities, that’s the money the EU is doing. As others have said, everyone has a choice. What I dislike is countries demanding other companies have access to Apple products. Tell me why they should. If I make a computer product should I be forced to allow others to add software to it? If so, why?
    "Just importing goods". 

  • Reply 16 of 16
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,409member
    Useless economies when it comes to innovation. It's thanks to persistent, pernicious meddling by an elite ruling class that is constantly dreaming up new ways to throttle businesses. 

    If it weren't for tourism, many of them would have little to go on. 
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