First, Apple doesn't actually build ANYTHING. Every bit of hardware with an Apple logo on it is actually made by somebody else.
Second, the manufacturing companies that actually build Apple stuff aren't car manufacturers, they're computer part manufacturers. If they were going to build cars, they'd first have to build car factories. And that would get noticed.
Apple is playing with self-driving technology. Apple isn't doing it much, and isn't doing it very well. They're WAY behind Google and the actual car companies.
The most you're going to see out of Apple for at least a decade is CarPlay. And for Apple to have a car as a shipping product even in a decade they'd either have to buy or partner with an actual car company.
Exactly. Apple only brings out the best and for self driving, and electric car technologies, they are way behind the curve.
First, Apple doesn't actually build ANYTHING. Every bit of hardware with an Apple logo on it is actually made by somebody else.
A rather pointless observation, as that's how it works for most CE. Contract manufacturing is normal everywhere. Do you think Google makes its own phones? TVs, receivers, etc etc. Factories in Asia and S. America and even in Texas are contracted to make things.
Which is not to say they're all the *same*. This contract manufacturing is to the detail specifications of the customer. Even Apple's iPhone screens, manufactured by Samsung, are spec designs and unique to Apple's product and not identical to other displays made by the same. There was a recent headline here where a contract manufacturer made rogue changes to a spec, and go into hot water w/ Apple because of it.
Apple could be positioning itself to be like Magna, building systems for cars. Carplay is the first such thing. From there, the dashboard, entertainment, collision avoidance, cameras and security. Maybe even seat and climate controls. Engines (electric or otherwise) and transmissions? Not so much.
Then there's the service aspect, which you may not know is where car dealerships make the most money per vehicle.
I’m curious as to how much less income EVs bring in for service than ICEs. Had a Chevy Bolt for a year now with no regular service necessary. Only time it’s been to the dealer was to update charging software at the dealer’s expense. With no ICE with its attendant mechanical devices (cooling system, transmission, exhaust, differential, etc.) there are far fewer things to go wrong. Electric motors are devilishly simple devices with basically one moving part! About the only things that need changing are brake fluid, tires, and cabin air filter, and those are very infrequent. With regenerative braking (one pedal driving) I rarely touch my brakes. Unless there’s something I’m missing dealers are going to take a big hit.
There are more components in that motor than you think, even in the latest regen systems. Regardless, an ailing charging element, for instance, will just be replaced, not repaired. But the dealers will certainly charge you for the diagnostic time, the new component, and a proportionate share of the labor, lights, utilities, property taxes, etc. No big hit, but you might be peeved at the cost for a component that was replaced in an hour and a half.
First, Apple doesn't actually build ANYTHING. Every bit of hardware with an Apple logo on it is actually made by somebody else.
Second, the manufacturing companies that actually build Apple stuff aren't car manufacturers, they're computer part manufacturers. If they were going to build cars, they'd first have to build car factories. And that would get noticed.
Apple is playing with self-driving technology. Apple isn't doing it much, and isn't doing it very well. They're WAY behind Google and the actual car companies.
The most you're going to see out of Apple for at least a decade is CarPlay. And for Apple to have a car as a shipping product even in a decade they'd either have to buy or partner with an actual car company.
Yeah, we're all aware; it's called "contract manufacturing". Virtually every manufacturer utilizes these subcontractors for everything from design to polishing the logo before delivery. Your canned peaches and fresh avocados aren't grown by your local grocery store either.
As far as self-driving, nobody ever said that was Apple's intent. Besides, how do you know how well they're doing, it's not like they publish a newsletter or disclose it to shareholders?
Apple probably will buy, or partner with, a car company. They have the money. And it wouldn't take ten years to build a car. Because they still have the money to make it happen. You don't hire top engineers from Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, and even Ford to enhance CarPlay. They're building a car.
Then there's the service aspect, which you may not know is where car dealerships make the most money per vehicle.
I’m curious as to how much less income EVs bring in for service than ICEs. Had a Chevy Bolt for a year now with no regular service necessary. Only time it’s been to the dealer was to update charging software at the dealer’s expense. With no ICE with its attendant mechanical devices (cooling system, transmission, exhaust, differential, etc.) there are far fewer things to go wrong. Electric motors are devilishly simple devices with basically one moving part! About the only things that need changing are brake fluid, tires, and cabin air filter, and those are very infrequent. With regenerative braking (one pedal driving) I rarely touch my brakes. Unless there’s something I’m missing dealers are going to take a big hit.
I’ve seen reports of car dealers like Ford jacking up the prices of EVs using the lack of service income to justify the surcharge.
I was thinking that Apple may come up with an OS for a self driving car and license it for use but that would completely go against their entire history of products. I can see them partnering with another company.
The fact that ‘Apple doesn’t make anything’ is irrelevant. As has been pointed out, virtually every complex product on the market is made of components from various suppliers. Cars especially so. The main thing going against Apple making their own car is the fact that automobile design and manufacturing are completely unlike anything apple has done prior.
I was thinking that Apple may come up with an OS for a self driving car and license it for use but that would completely go against their entire history of products. I can see them partnering with another company.
The fact that ‘Apple doesn’t make anything’ is irrelevant. As has been pointed out, virtually every complex product on the market is made of components from various suppliers. Cars especially so. The main thing going against Apple making their own car is the fact that automobile design and manufacturing are completely unlike anything apple has done prior.
Some could argue that CarPlay isan OS for cars.
Even though Apple has not made anything related to an automobile, some could argue that was the case with the phone and look where that took them. I know that the Newton was a similar product but still not a phone.
Apple has hired a lot of outside automotive experts, and as someone else mention, you don’t just pick up talented people for just CarPlay.
And people have been saying that they do not ‘make anything’ this is false. They do not make products that ship, but they do make prototypes.
I was thinking that Apple may come up with an OS for a self driving car and license it for use but that would completely go against their entire history of products. I can see them partnering with another company.
The fact that ‘Apple doesn’t make anything’ is irrelevant. As has been pointed out, virtually every complex product on the market is made of components from various suppliers. Cars especially so. The main thing going against Apple making their own car is the fact that automobile design and manufacturing are completely unlike anything apple has done prior.
Some could argue that CarPlay isan OS for cars.
Even though Apple has not made anything related to an automobile, some could argue that was the case with the phone and look where that took them. I know that the Newton was a similar product but still not a phone.
Apple has hired a lot of outside automotive experts, and as someone else mention, you don’t just pick up talented people for just CarPlay.
And people have been saying that they do not ‘make anything’ this is false. They do not make products that ship, but they do make prototypes.
In its current form CarPlay is little more than a protocol for adding an external touchscreen to your iPhone, a far cry from an OS that runs the entire car.
Cellular phones were not in their lineup, but still well within their general area of expertise. Cars are not.
I was thinking that Apple may come up with an OS for a self driving car and license it for use but that would completely go against their entire history of products. I can see them partnering with another company.
The fact that ‘Apple doesn’t make anything’ is irrelevant. As has been pointed out, virtually every complex product on the market is made of components from various suppliers. Cars especially so. The main thing going against Apple making their own car is the fact that automobile design and manufacturing are completely unlike anything apple has done prior.
Some could argue that CarPlay isan OS for cars.
Even though Apple has not made anything related to an automobile, some could argue that was the case with the phone and look where that took them. I know that the Newton was a similar product but still not a phone.
Apple has hired a lot of outside automotive experts, and as someone else mention, you don’t just pick up talented people for just CarPlay.
And people have been saying that they do not ‘make anything’ this is false. They do not make products that ship, but they do make prototypes.
In its current form CarPlay is little more than a protocol for adding an external touchscreen to your iPhone, a far cry from an OS that runs the entire car.
Cellular phones were not in their lineup, but still well within their general area of expertise. Cars are not.
That’s why I said some could argue. The next iteration, the one that was shown off at WWDC this year, is very much like an OS for the car. Again, they have hired a lot of people from the automotive industry. That says something.
Also, while the Newton may have been inspiration, I’d like to think it wasn’t in their general area of expertise. It was an entirely new product from anything that been released, given that I’m sure no Newton engineers were actually involved with the development of the product.
I don’t care if Apple ever makes a complete automobile. They can probably contribute quite a lot as an OEM supplier in areas like infotainment, navigation, communication, and power management. But even in these areas it’s not like the existing automobile makers, including those who are still deeply entrenched with internal combustion engines, have been sitting on their hands, especially in areas like collision avoidance.
Having very deep domain knowledge around automobile manufacturing is a big plus for existing car makers, on the one hand. Tesla had to drink from a fire hose to get itself up to speed in this area and it could have easily collapsed while trying. On the other hand, I’d imagine that having huge sunk costs in existing manufacturing infrastructure around ICE cars comes with its own set of challenges for companies that are unsure about moving forward. Ford seems to be moving boldly towards converting existing operations to EVs, even with its most profitable products, while other companies seem to be crawling along or abandoning plants, e.g., GM Lordstown, rather than converting them.
I still question what it is that gets people excited about Apple entering the EV market sector. They are exceptionally good at doing a fairly few number of products that exist in a fairly narrow market segment. Walk into an Apple store you’ll see that it’s quite sparse compared to say a Micro Center or the ghosts of all consumer oriented computer stores past. Apple doesn’t have a universal King Midas touch. Some things they put out there with great fanfare don’t actually go very far. So what is it that makes some folks believe that Apple can deliver in a big way in a big market with a lot of big competitors, some of whom have a century of domain experience backing them up?
I’m not saying Apple can’t do what Tesla has done. I’m just saying that it’s not going to been any easier for Apple than it was for Tesla. Sure, Apple has a lot of capital to fund its new ventures, but they’ll have to commit to drinking from a fire hose for 3-5 years rather than sipping from a straw for another decade and being no closer to delivering a complete product than where they are today.
I still question what it is that gets people excited about Apple entering the EV market sector. They are exceptionally good at doing a fairly few number of products that exist in a fairly narrow market segment. Walk into an Apple store you’ll see that it’s quite sparse compared to say a Micro Center or the ghosts of all consumer oriented computer stores past. Apple doesn’t have a universal King Midas touch. Some things they put out there with great fanfare don’t actually go very far. So what is it that makes some folks believe that Apple can deliver in a big way in a big market with a lot of big competitors, some of whom have a century of domain experience backing them up?
Apple has a history of entering a developing market and shaking it up by getting it right. Macs vs DOS PCs, smart phones, the iPod, etc. Additionally you need to remember that this is an Apple-centric site. It’s very pro-Apple so the attitude here is. It necessarily representative of the market as a whole.
I was thinking that Apple may come up with an OS for a self driving car and license it for use but that would completely go against their entire history of products. I can see them partnering with another company.
The fact that ‘Apple doesn’t make anything’ is irrelevant. As has been pointed out, virtually every complex product on the market is made of components from various suppliers. Cars especially so. The main thing going against Apple making their own car is the fact that automobile design and manufacturing are completely unlike anything apple has done prior.
Some could argue that CarPlay isan OS for cars.
Even though Apple has not made anything related to an automobile, some could argue that was the case with the phone and look where that took them. I know that the Newton was a similar product but still not a phone.
Apple has hired a lot of outside automotive experts, and as someone else mention, you don’t just pick up talented people for just CarPlay.
And people have been saying that they do not ‘make anything’ this is false. They do not make products that ship, but they do make prototypes.
In its current form CarPlay is little more than a protocol for adding an external touchscreen to your iPhone, a far cry from an OS that runs the entire car.
Cellular phones were not in their lineup, but still well within their general area of expertise. Cars are not.
That’s why I said some could argue. The next iteration, the one that was shown off at WWDC this year, is very much like an OS for the car. Again, they have hired a lot of people from the automotive industry. That says something.
Also, while the Newton may have been inspiration, I’d like to think it wasn’t in their general area of expertise. It was an entirely new product from anything that been released, given that I’m sure no Newton engineers were actually involved with the development of the product.
Yes, the new CarPlay that was demoed is much more than an external display.
The Apple car, whatever it is is a huge enigma. It doesn’t make sense in a lot of ways, but it also makes no sense for them to hire so many people from the automotive world just to develop a car OS.
I’ve thought the same for a while now. It’s one thing to produce a system that is used in other people’s cars, and making the whole thing yourself. The latter involves setting up a dealer network, service and support systems, dealing with warranty claims and more. The current network of AppleStores would simply not work at all for this. Apple would have to build a new car dealership network from scratch. Apple has experience designing software. It’s another story with seats, air bag systems, wheel bearings, door locks, and all the rest of the stuff that goes into a car. Why reinvent the wheel, when they can make something to go on other people’s products. Far less hassle and far more money to be made in the latter.
Speaking of dealerships... the current model of non-manufacturer-owned auto dealerships? That's all going to go away once electric vehicles become ubiquitous. Current auto dealerships are freaking out because electric cars need far less maintenance than ICE vehicles, and service is what keeps their doors open.
I agree, unlikely Apple is interested in manufacturing a car and supporting it, for the reasons you outlined. The key is the margin. Apple is simply NOT going to enter a VERY capital-intensive business (auto manufacturing) where the margins are in single-digits. What are the margins on typical Apple products and services? For hardware, it's in the 30s. For services, it's about twice that.
And yet... the entire industry is ripe for disruption, Apple is led by a CEO well-known for his expertise in manufacturing and supply chains. What Apple is up to is a matter of a great deal of speculation and nobody on the outside really knows for sure what they're thinking their future role will be. "Those who are talking don't know, and those who know aren't talking."
Maybe Apple is still figuring that out as well, similar to the years they spent figuring out how to get into the film and TV business. Look at what they're doing now with AppleTV+, it took years to get to this point but now Apple is on the verge of something really big. As recently as a year ago, observers were dismissing it as an also-ran while Netflix and Disney+ were crushing it. Now ATV+ is making a big move into live sports, its strategy of developing original high-quality content is paying off, and it's moving into animated films. Netflix is a dog and in serious trouble. What are Netflix' income streams? Streaming and that's it. Apple reportedly loses $1B/yr on ATV+ and it can afford to do that forever. It is competing with Amazon and Disney for NFL Sunday Ticket. If it loses out on that one, it's going to find another way to stream NFL games.
Apple has the money and the patience to play the long game in whatever industry it decides to enter. I'm excited to see what comes of this effort, even though it may take 3 to 5 years until we begin to see the shape of that.
Apple doesn’t have a universal King Midas touch. Some things they put out there with great fanfare don’t actually go very far. So what is it that makes some folks believe that Apple can deliver in a big way in a big market with a lot of big competitors, some of whom have a century of domain experience backing them up?
It's Apple. The best talent will always consider working for them.
Apple has by far the deepest pockets out there. If they don't get something right, they'll learn from mistakes and come back again stronger.
The entire auto industry is being disrupted by EV's and the intense research into self-driving autos. "A century of domain experience" doesn't mean quite so much when your entire century of experience is being shaken up. Comfort with old ways can be a liability, the extreme example is Kodak which ignored the digital camera revolution in order to preserve its business model, so its competitors ate its lunch. I don't think that VW, etc is anywhere nearly that blinded. But... there's something to be said for being a deep-pocketed newcomer accustomed to creating and taking advantage of disruption vs. being an incumbent.
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Which is not to say they're all the *same*. This contract manufacturing is to the detail specifications of the customer. Even Apple's iPhone screens, manufactured by Samsung, are spec designs and unique to Apple's product and not identical to other displays made by the same. There was a recent headline here where a contract manufacturer made rogue changes to a spec, and go into hot water w/ Apple because of it.
Yeah, we're all aware; it's called "contract manufacturing". Virtually every manufacturer utilizes these subcontractors for everything from design to polishing the logo before delivery. Your canned peaches and fresh avocados aren't grown by your local grocery store either.
As far as self-driving, nobody ever said that was Apple's intent. Besides, how do you know how well they're doing, it's not like they publish a newsletter or disclose it to shareholders?
Apple probably will buy, or partner with, a car company. They have the money. And it wouldn't take ten years to build a car. Because they still have the money to make it happen. You don't hire top engineers from Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, and even Ford to enhance CarPlay. They're building a car.
Having very deep domain knowledge around automobile manufacturing is a big plus for existing car makers, on the one hand. Tesla had to drink from a fire hose to get itself up to speed in this area and it could have easily collapsed while trying. On the other hand, I’d imagine that having huge sunk costs in existing manufacturing infrastructure around ICE cars comes with its own set of challenges for companies that are unsure about moving forward. Ford seems to be moving boldly towards converting existing operations to EVs, even with its most profitable products, while other companies seem to be crawling along or abandoning plants, e.g., GM Lordstown, rather than converting them.
I still question what it is that gets people excited about Apple entering the EV market sector. They are exceptionally good at doing a fairly few number of products that exist in a fairly narrow market segment. Walk into an Apple store you’ll see that it’s quite sparse compared to say a Micro Center or the ghosts of all consumer oriented computer stores past. Apple doesn’t have a universal King Midas touch. Some things they put out there with great fanfare don’t actually go very far. So what is it that makes some folks believe that Apple can deliver in a big way in a big market with a lot of big competitors, some of whom have a century of domain experience backing them up?
I’m not saying Apple can’t do what Tesla has done. I’m just saying that it’s not going to been any easier for Apple than it was for Tesla. Sure, Apple has a lot of capital to fund its new ventures, but they’ll have to commit to drinking from a fire hose for 3-5 years rather than sipping from a straw for another decade and being no closer to delivering a complete product than where they are today.
I agree, unlikely Apple is interested in manufacturing a car and supporting it, for the reasons you outlined. The key is the margin. Apple is simply NOT going to enter a VERY capital-intensive business (auto manufacturing) where the margins are in single-digits. What are the margins on typical Apple products and services? For hardware, it's in the 30s. For services, it's about twice that.
And yet... the entire industry is ripe for disruption, Apple is led by a CEO well-known for his expertise in manufacturing and supply chains. What Apple is up to is a matter of a great deal of speculation and nobody on the outside really knows for sure what they're thinking their future role will be. "Those who are talking don't know, and those who know aren't talking."
Maybe Apple is still figuring that out as well, similar to the years they spent figuring out how to get into the film and TV business. Look at what they're doing now with AppleTV+, it took years to get to this point but now Apple is on the verge of something really big. As recently as a year ago, observers were dismissing it as an also-ran while Netflix and Disney+ were crushing it. Now ATV+ is making a big move into live sports, its strategy of developing original high-quality content is paying off, and it's moving into animated films. Netflix is a dog and in serious trouble. What are Netflix' income streams? Streaming and that's it. Apple reportedly loses $1B/yr on ATV+ and it can afford to do that forever. It is competing with Amazon and Disney for NFL Sunday Ticket. If it loses out on that one, it's going to find another way to stream NFL games.
Apple has the money and the patience to play the long game in whatever industry it decides to enter. I'm excited to see what comes of this effort, even though it may take 3 to 5 years until we begin to see the shape of that.