USB-C on iPhone is good - but not as an excuse for a bad law

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 77
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    Secondly, there is nothing that prevents the EU from amending their own laws with the acceptance of a future standard, granted it actually IS a new standard (not another propriety AppleConnector or SamsungSpeedyCable).

    And how exactly is a new, better standard supposed to arise when it would be illegal to include it in EU-bound product?

    Companies invest in R&D for competitive advantage. There will be much less incentive for a company like Apple to invent a new standard and then, rather than include it immediately in a new product, negotiate (for years) with other companies to make it a standard and then convince (after years) the EU to allow this as the new standard. Given the EU's deserve to have a single standard, would they then set a date for the existing standard to be 100% phased out?  Twenty years from now, kids will be asking why we still have these clunky, out-moded USB-C plugs/
    There’s a huge market outside the EU. Plenty of incentive for Apple.
    dewme
  • Reply 42 of 77
    XedXed Posts: 2,711member
    JP234 said:
    You'd still not be using a single connector as you stated that you have an Apple Watch. The Apple Watch uses an inductive charger as the only way to charge the device.
    But it's USB-C on the end that plugs in, ain't it?
    And? You claiming that you only needed the one cable.. which is a lie.

    PS: I bet you've complained that Apple dropped the PSU from their iPhone even though not having a drawer full of extra PSUs with their heavy metals is much better for eWaste reduction.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 77
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 2,301member
    miguelghs said:
    This article is wrong in so many levels. I keep seeing media and blogs obsessing about Apple but what they fail to see is that I have to keep a cable for my phone, a cable for my headphones, a cable for my computer, a cable for my watch, a cable for my tablet, etc etc… and as me, there’s many others. 

    I wish this law was approved many years ago and we wouldn’t have to deal with this mess. 

    But what you fail to see is that USB-C is not a "single standard". There are so many variations of it in the marketplace. It's easy to say "USB-C solves everything", but vendors are not held to a single standard. Consumers are left to sort out the mess.

    dewmewatto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 77
    Portless is the way to go. Just build magsafe into everything. 
    edited October 2022 entropyswatto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 77
    longfanglongfang Posts: 495member
    miguelghs said:
    macminion said:
    Piss off the EU by suppling a lightning to usb-c adapter with an iPhone purchase. 
    Not possible. Covered by the law already. 
    It already ships with one. It just happens to have a cable in the middle. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 77
    sunman42sunman42 Posts: 280member
    Madbum said:
    The EU is a Un -elected group of bureaucrats

    but they act like communists  
    Um.... while thus policy was certainly recommended by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, it was enacted into law by the European Parliament, so just as elected as, say, Marjorie Taylor Greene. Then again, people in the EU enjoy the Eurovision contest, so there's no accounting for tastes.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 77
    longfanglongfang Posts: 495member
    A single charger format would benefit the world in many ways. From SIGNIFICANTLY reducing e waste to major consumer convenience, it’s a win. 

    However, a government should never encroach on the private market. 

    If the EU cared (rather than chose to act as dictators), they would provide a suggestion snd tax incentives for doing this. 

    The tech companies can get together and decide on the standard - not the government. The government can simply reward that private sector agreement with tax breaks and other incentives. 

    It’s really, really simple to accomplish good in this world when the motive isn’t muddied by an authoritarian quest for greed and power. 
    You do know the charger end of things is already usb c right?
    watto_cobrastompy
  • Reply 48 of 77
    longfanglongfang Posts: 495member
    sunman42 said:
    Madbum said:
    The EU is a Un -elected group of bureaucrats

    but they act like communists  
    Um.... while thus policy was certainly recommended by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, it was enacted into law by the European Parliament, so just as elected as, say, Marjorie Taylor Greene. Then again, people in the EU enjoy the Eurovision contest, so there's no accounting for tastes.
    Cough, American Idol” cough
    watto_cobraFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 49 of 77
    sunman42sunman42 Posts: 280member
    I've said it elsewhere on this and other sites, but it bears repeating: reducing electronic waste is a laudable goal, and I have no argument with legislatures anywhere trying on mandate such a reduction — as long as they go about it in a sensible, way. The members of the European Parliament are politicians, a class that includes few engineers. So you'd think they'd recognize that they should legislate goals (and set standard, and benchmarks to be reached, with dates), and leave the engineering to.... engineers. I got used to something similar working for a four-letter acronym US agency that puts extremely high-tech apparatus on the top of large stacks of high explosives in order to send those apparatuses elsewhere in the solar system. As a scientist, I learned pretty early on that the engineers knew a lot better than I ever would how to accomplish that, assuming my fellow scientists and I gave them the requirements (e.g. spatial resolution, cleanliness, thermal constraints, pointing accuracy, &c., &c.). Th engineers would perform a "flow-down" of requirements in order to see the stated mission goals. There might be trade-offs to fit within mission budget and schedule, but it was an iterative process with all stakeholders involved. And no one on the science side was dumb enough to say, "You must use this kind of connector." The engineers would have laughed at us if we'd tried.

    The net result of this legislation will be that the European Parliament will be able to say, "No mobile phones have been sold here for <n> years with anything but USB ports for charging," but they'll never be able to say (not credibly, anyway), "This is how much waste we've prevented through this policy" — simply because innovation will keep rolling on. And will their legislation prevent Apple and other manufacturers from also including Qi/MagSafe charing as well as USB-C? That would really be colossally stupid.
    watto_cobraFileMakerFellerstompybeowulfschmidt
  • Reply 50 of 77
    JFC_PAJFC_PA Posts: 938member
    entropys said:
    Just go portless and stick it up the Eurocrats.
    Unfortunately for travelers the inefficiency of wireless charging is a battery pack killer. I’d hate to lose cabled charging. 
    watto_cobraFileMakerFellerbeowulfschmidt
  • Reply 51 of 77
    ova said: By the way, is the current UK prime minister elected by the people?  Did not think so. 
    Your message was so unnecessarily condescending, I felt compelled to reply. In the UK we elect a government, we don’t elect a leader. Hence ‘prime minister’ not ‘president’. 
    muthuk_vanalingamselleringtonwilliamlondonwatto_cobraFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 52 of 77
    I think this has become very polarised. Do we ‘do what we are told’ or ‘do what the F we like’? Well, bad stuff happens in both scenarios, and sometimes some agreement and compliance is a good thing. Hence agreed laws not to kill each other, countries banning CFC’s, environmental protections to stop irreparable harm to our shared planet, banning slave/child labour etc. The idea that governments shouldn’t legislate ‘private companies’ at all is as ludicrous as saying governments should be allowed to dictate everything we say or do. Sadly we live in an increasingly polarised world where we fight for one side or the other… to be right or to be wrong. 

    As for lightning and usb, that’s what we are here to discuss, right? The consistency of lightning (and the previous dock connector) vs previous phone and device connectors is worlds apart. Apple really has massively minimised confusion and e-waste, and other companies followed. 

    I am all for being all usb-c, for I too dislike carrying multiple cables. But, I can see why apple have resisted, as the lightning cable has always been a ‘receive power’ and ‘functional device’ end. What happens when I plug my iPhone into my AirPods… does the phone charge the AirPods, or vice versa. Or what if I plug my phone into my iPad… it isn’t completely clear once you move to usb-c.

    And what happens when I plug a non-compatible game controller into my phone… will the average user know what to expect… will it ‘just work’?

    All things that have likely made apple resist. I, personally, am expecting a lot of conversations with leas tech savvy relatives and friends about how you know what happens when you plug x into x…
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobraFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 53 of 77
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,225member
    ova said:
    timmillea said:
    "The European Union is, in theory, a force for good across Europe — just ask anyone in Britain now they've found out how much the EU used to do for that country"

    I had to laugh at that! The EU member countries comprise of two distinct types: a) the majority poorer ones that want EU subsidies and investment and b) the minority richer ones that want to control the others. The UK originally joined an "economic community", i.e. free-trade association, but the European project quickly transformed into a central bureaucracy that wanted to control every aspect of daily life of over half a billion citizens. Compulsory USB-C is a drop in the ocean compared to the tens of thousands of rules and regulations. The EU is fundamentally undemocratic. The EU 'parliament' is purely a talking shop. The power rests with national governments and none of those wants the EU to be democratic as a democratic EU would take precedence. Taxation without representation. Power without accountability. The EU needs drastic reform to serve its citizens. These are some of the reasons the UK (narrowly) voted to leave the EU. 

    The USB-C debacle is wonderfully illustrative. The principle is noble - that there should be an open, common standard for device chargers in order to promote interoperability and save the annual disposal of millions of chargers. However, it is not for unelected bureaucrats with no technical knowledge, however well-advised, to be favouring one technical standard over another. It is for a global body such as the International Standards Organisation (ISO) to make suggestions in consultation with all the stakeholders. No, unelected EU bureaucrats will decide and for the EU only. It is not their competence, in every possible sense of the word.

    Such it is for the size of bananas, which unit of weight they can be sold in, what you can call your pies, your electrical voltage, the height of your seat, the type of light bulb you allowed to buy, how many hours you can work, etc. tens of thousands of times over. That is what the EU did for us! Reform it drastically and the UK may rejoin. For now, the UK is starting to explore its new freedoms and remake old alliances. 
    Just for your information: the EU citizens are all very happy that the UK left. Good riddance. For decades the UK has stalled integration of the other EU countries by abusing their special privileges no other EU country had. It is quite refreshing to see that we can now make real progress. In addition it does not make sense to call EU officials non-elected. They are representatives of an election process. By the way, is the current UK prime minister elected by the people?  Did not think so. 
    Yeah well you just got rid of one of the three countries that are net payers for the euro project. The rest are parasitic, plus France and Germany fighting over who rules the rest.
    edited October 2022 selleringtonwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 77
    saareksaarek Posts: 1,551member
     just ask anyone in Britain now they've found out how much the EU used to do for that country.”

    I’m British and I’ll bite. I don’t think anyone here really feels any different outside of the EU than we did in it.

    Sure, you’ll find a few leftist bloggers and voters who will ring their hands and beat their chests, but an average person?


    Perhaps you’d like to list the many wonderful things the EU did for us that made the £12B we sent them worth it…
    edited October 2022 selleringtonwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 77
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,909member
    sunman42 said:
    I've said it elsewhere on this and other sites, but it bears repeating: reducing electronic waste is a laudable goal, and I have no argument with legislatures anywhere trying on mandate such a reduction — as long as they go about it in a sensible, way. The members of the European Parliament are politicians, a class that includes few engineers. So you'd think they'd recognize that they should legislate goals (and set standard, and benchmarks to be reached, with dates), and leave the engineering to.... engineers. I got used to something similar working for a four-letter acronym US agency that puts extremely high-tech apparatus on the top of large stacks of high explosives in order to send those apparatuses elsewhere in the solar system. As a scientist, I learned pretty early on that the engineers knew a lot better than I ever would how to accomplish that, assuming my fellow scientists and I gave them the requirements (e.g. spatial resolution, cleanliness, thermal constraints, pointing accuracy, &c., &c.). Th engineers would perform a "flow-down" of requirements in order to see the stated mission goals. There might be trade-offs to fit within mission budget and schedule, but it was an iterative process with all stakeholders involved. And no one on the science side was dumb enough to say, "You must use this kind of connector." The engineers would have laughed at us if we'd tried.

    The net result of this legislation will be that the European Parliament will be able to say, "No mobile phones have been sold here for <n> years with anything but USB ports for charging," but they'll never be able to say (not credibly, anyway), "This is how much waste we've prevented through this policy" — simply because innovation will keep rolling on. And will their legislation prevent Apple and other manufacturers from also including Qi/MagSafe charing as well as USB-C? That would really be colossally stupid.
    The engineering was already done. They have settled on USB-C precisely because it is a standard used worldwide.

    The EU wasn't responsible for USB-C, engineers and scientists were. 

    For the record, during the consultation phase of this move, the EU consulted with both manufacturers and manufacturers' associations over a two year period. 
    muthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 56 of 77
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,909member
    AllOFUS said:
    That’s what socialist governments do. Put their nose where they have zero understanding of the subject and go for mere optics. Look at America right now. 
    “We care, come all, our borders are open”
    “Gas is expensive but we won’t produce American oil” 

    governments should stay out of this. EU is a poster child for bad decisions. 
    The EU has a very complete understanding of the situation. This is about much more than optics. 

    Read the impact assessments and come back with your thoughts. 

    Do you know why the WEEE and RoHS directives were implemented? Were they bad decisions? 

    EU policy has led to far more good (dare I say 'great') decisions than bad ones. Would you care to name some of the terrible ones? 

    There is no way any of that could have happened through private initiatives. 

    Fragmentation as cited in the assessments is a direct result of private companies pushing their own interests, yet even in that situation, the EU tried - for literally years - to get the industry onto the same track. 

    No success was had through persuasion so legislation was the way to go. 

    And no, fragmentation is not the only issue this legislation is trying to tackle either. There are more. 

    USB-C itself is not an issue for many here. Go back to 2016 and check how many were defending it tooth and nail on the then new MacBook Pros. Many of those people are now seemingly against it. Does that make sense to you? 


    muthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFeller
  • Reply 57 of 77
    miguelghs said:
    This article is wrong in so many levels. I keep seeing media and blogs obsessing about Apple but what they fail to see is that I have to keep a cable for my phone, a cable for my headphones, a cable for my computer, a cable for my watch, a cable for my tablet, etc etc… and as me, there’s many others. 

    I wish this law was approved many years ago and we wouldn’t have to deal with this mess. 
    But the law isn't supposed to be about needing different cables, it constantly refers to "chargers" and how wasteful it is to have to buy and own different chargers for different devices. Which you don't, all you need is compatible cables. 

    The law's drafters seem to think that the cables are still permanently attached to the chargers like in the old Nokia flip phone days. They don't seem to realise that you can buy cables separately from chargers. Cables are cheap, they are easily obtainable, they come in the box with most devices and they don't create much e-waste compared to the chargers themselves. You can use older chargers with newer devices, all you *may* need is different cable. 
    thtselleringtonwatto_cobrastompy
  • Reply 58 of 77
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,229member
    miguelghs said:
    This article is wrong in so many levels. I keep seeing media and blogs obsessing about Apple but what they fail to see is that I have to keep a cable for my phone, a cable for my headphones, a cable for my computer, a cable for my watch, a cable for my tablet, etc etc… and as me, there’s many others. 

    I wish this law was approved many years ago and we wouldn’t have to deal with this mess. 
    What mess? Are you saying your monitor, headphones, computers, phones… simply won’t have cables?
  • Reply 59 of 77
    Give them their usb c port, but put in the firmware to use specific cables that have to have a chip in it in order to work… or leave the lightning port where it is, and put a usb c on the back of the phone (a la Magic Mouse).  Or inset the port so that not all connector housings will fit, housing would have to be a specific size/shape to physically fit… just a few ideas to spite them… all impractical and unlikely to happen, just fun to to think about sticking it to the man
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 60 of 77
    wozwozwozwoz Posts: 263member
    We also have the EU to thank that every time we visit a web site, an idiot window pops up to accept COOKIES - and then the sites collect the same information that they always used to ... but with 77 trillion wasted clicks thrown in due to appallingly poorly implemented legislation.
    Xedthtwatto_cobra
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