Hoo-boy, Cowboy..! It's all coming out in the wash now!
It's time for the smack down!!!
Where to start?
IBM had an 800mhz G4 while Moto had 500 mhz? Gosh. That's damning. Oh man, Moto's Clone argument looks very thread bare. They won't get out alive on that one. We could have been hanging with AMD and Intel and giving them the whoop-ass and Moto' deliberately held us back because they couldn't deliver.
They blame Apple being dependent on them. Uh? I'm sure they didn't mind the exclusive greed contract they signed and enforced as above.
They stopped IBM using Altivec when it because patently clear (well, I'm sure we'd have seen it long before Moto' if we were privy...) they couldn't deliver a G5.
How can they site Apple's choice of PPC only against Apple, uhGH? I suppose that would make sense when you throw out PPC in your own offices and eat your competitor's dog food. Bizarre. Now I'm beginning to understand the animal that some people have been defending all these years.
Rumour or not, there is a clear tinge of Moto' infamous 'clone grudge' held against Apple here. Whatever it cost Moto', it cost Apple far more in Tower sales. Look at where Apple Tower sales are now, a result that can be traced right back to Motorola's inability to deliver. Whether IBM could have cranked the G4 up to 3 gig, I dunno, but I think we may have breached the 2 gig barrier by now judging by what has been highlighted.
The fact we are getting the 970 this year (?) in light of Moto' throwing in the Altivec towel so late on is...testament to IBM's ability to deliver it seems.
With Tower sales on 155, 000 give or take...and on the verge of collapse it is imperative we get the 970 and hope IBM can successively crank up the pain on the Wintel camp.
I know this French stuff is rumour...but it could almost fit exactly the ominous silence that has come from Apple and Motorola over the last four years. If you were Apple, you wouldn't comment. Why would you? Especially when you knew were going legal because your chip partner failed on delivery of faster G4s, held back your 2nd supplier to deliver faster G4 chips (Steve Jobs couldn't have stomached that very well...), chips weren't on time, couldn't cope with deadlines to deliver cpus, and key in the whole argument, stopped development on the G5 at the last minute because Apple wasn't a big enough customer while leaving them with the same sluggish G4 development! How Motorola think they could get out of that without a lawsuit...well, only they would know.
I feel sorry for the Mac platform put in jeopardy at the hands of Motorola and only sandbagged by much ingenuinty by Apple's management. Tower sales in the can. Hundreds of thousands of defected Mac to Wintel pros...and millions of frustrated Mac owners who still can't buy a competitive cpu desktop Mac.
I'm sure some may discard these rumours or not agree. But We'll know soon enough. I'm expecting Apple to hit these guys with a multi-billion dollar lawsuit. Apple will end up owning them.
Note just that it is extremely interesting Ã*' to learn that IBM can manufacture of G4 very fast. They will be probably the new chips of entry of range of APPLE. It is indeed not very probable that Motorola continues to work with APPLE within sight of their divergences.
G3+SIMD in.
Moto and G4 out.
2 gig G3s for Apple's eMacs/iMacs/iBooks?
Maybe Moki's hints about something other than just a 970. A one-two double IBM whammy.
I can't wait. Hell, a 2 gig G3? Maybe? On Rio? Maybe?
It would be ironic if the last decent Apple cpu was to storm Apple's consumer lines once more.
We'll see. I've resigned myself to the mother of all waits. I hope this June begins the beginning of Apple's PPC comeback trail. Cue Rocky music.
Cue one Lemon Bon Bon stepping up with wallet to buy that dual 970 from local Apple dealer.
I think a lawsuit would be nonsense. Let's say that Mot is guilty (which is not that easy to prove as some think in der rage), so the question of damage remains. Apple would argue that a better CPU would have increased their market share. Well there were times (G3) when Apple had the best Desktop CPU and the fastest notebook and guess what, they were losing market share quickly. Look at 1995 to 1999 (pre G4), constant falling. It would hard for Apple to prove that a G5 would have made the difference as the G3 didn't make it either. I don't see a lawsuit coming, it's too risky too few to gain. But maybe something like Amorph suggested, Apple putting pressure on Mot to deliver something they can use like a G6 for powerbooks or something like that.
Anyway, keeping a second potential supplier on the back burner, or aquiring the designs/engineers to let Apple make more direct contributions to the PPC, and possibly farm out fabrication "just in case" is something they always have to do.
Lawsuits tend to lose their punitive value for the plaintiff in these situations. They cost lots and lots, take too long, and distract companies and investors from the business at hand, but they can still make for good leverage.
It seems to me that people get the impression that once the 970 is released, there will no longer be a need for Motorola.
Well, since the G4 is still in the remaining product lines (sans iBook), there may well be a need for Motorola beyond the transition (assuming Apple uses the 970).
This lawsuit may very well be a move to get Motorola to allow Apple to see fab partners beyond Mot or IBM. Can someone say "Intel Perhaps"? There had been those rumors floating around that Intel and Steve Jobs have been getting cozy of late.
While it's been stated that Mot gave IBM permission to fab the G4 (or was it just the G3+AltiVec?), IBM may not necessarily be interested in being the main supplier for Apple on these parts, as I'm sure they'd just as well wait until all product lines use the 970/980/990.
Granted, we'd all love Steve to announce the PM970. Oh, and one more thing, the PB 970. Oh, and one more thing, the iMac 970 oh, well, here's the iBook and eMac with a 970 as well. The eMac starting out at just $24.97.
While it's been stated that Mot gave IBM permission to fab the G4 (or was it just the G3+AltiVec?), IBM may not necessarily be interested in being the main supplier for Apple on these parts, as I'm sure they'd just as well wait until all product lines use the 970/980/990.
At one point Motorola contracted IBM to produce the G4, because Motorola couldn't produce them in enough quantity. Fortunately for Motorola, IBM will cheerfully fab anything you pay them to. Unfortunately for Motorola, IBM is the most expensive foundry in the world. I expect that Mot took a bath that time, even if they did get a discount for being in AIM (which they might have, and might not have).
Because of the patent pooling and cooperation that went into the PPC (IBM engineers did a lot of work on AltiVec, for instance), I'm sure IBM could come up with their own G4 and start selling it, no problem. In fact, I'll bet Steve was not happy when IBM pooh-poohed the G4. With IBM now on the SIMD bandwagon, finally, we might see something out of them that can compete with, or replace, the 7457. This might be the 'sandbagging' that moki mysteriously alluded to some time back, or it might not.
I'm skeptical of the claim that IBM could make 800MHz G4s. The best explanation I've heard (I believe from BadAndy of Ars, who knows a thing or two about the G4) is that the 750 and the 7400 both suffered from an L1 cache timing bug that prevented either design from being clocked over 500MHz (ie., they could be clocked higher, but the L1 cache wouldn't work, and that's fatal). That's why neither went over 500MHz until a die shrink/redesign.
Given the fact that unusually aggressive caching was the key to the G3's performance, and given that it took the G3 a while to get to 500MHz, it doesn't strike me as unlikely at all. The G4 was then stuck with the misfortune of starting out at 500MHz, which is when the bug reared its head.
Add Motorola's other woes in, season with IBM's lack of interest in the G4, and simmer for the two years it takes to roll out a new CPU design.
I didn't realise that G4 was also 'pile cream' until I saw it on Tarrant on TV the other night.
Hmmm. Bring that G3+Simd plus 200 bus on stream as soon as. Or a G3+ Rio.
The WWDC onwards is going to get very interesting.
Only 2 months-ish to go now... 8)
I'm very intrigued by Fred Anderson's 'No comment' on Intel. With Steve bringing Intels to Pixar...I wonder, will Panther be the first step of Apple going platform neutral? It will ensure Apple never gets caught by the curlies ever again. The 'options' pregnant pause from Steve Jobs reverberates all the more with continued reading...and in light of all the smoke signals since.
What is even more intriguing is that Software and other products (that 'spare box' in Apple's grid...) is now on the verge of surpassing 'power'Mac revenue. This is a definite trend over the last year or so. I'm expecting a software blitz of Panther, iWorks and sundy iApps/updates to bolster software revenue further. Anderson hinted as such. And with money coming in with a music 'wow' service and more compelling .Mac freebies...could we see revenue from software surpassing several lines of Apple hardware by the next quarter or so? That would be unprecedented. And a welcome direction from my point of view. That frees up Apple's hardware politics considerably. Hmmm.
But, I think 970 POWERMacs will bring revenue for the 'sales engine' back on stream. So, who knows, with a 970 in one or two desktops, more Apple stores etc and hopefully a cheaper edu'/home computer than the iMac 2...and consolidation of the laptop range with a further adddition maybe(? Perhaps another 12 inch Powerbook model...or sub-iBook model...) or another DLD and...AND, we may see Apple heading back towards being an 8 billion company again.
The planets seem to be moving into alignment...slowly...yet irresistibly.
Comments
Originally posted by NETROMac
Why couldn't this go into the Apple to sue Motorola thread ?
I agree. Does nobody read the posting guidelines?
Anyway, maybe we could get a better translation. Right now it's hard to understand.
Threads merged. Carry on. 8)
Hoo-boy, Cowboy..! It's all coming out in the wash now!
It's time for the smack down!!!
Where to start?
IBM had an 800mhz G4 while Moto had 500 mhz? Gosh. That's damning. Oh man, Moto's Clone argument looks very thread bare. They won't get out alive on that one. We could have been hanging with AMD and Intel and giving them the whoop-ass and Moto' deliberately held us back because they couldn't deliver.
They blame Apple being dependent on them. Uh? I'm sure they didn't mind the exclusive greed contract they signed and enforced as above.
They stopped IBM using Altivec when it because patently clear (well, I'm sure we'd have seen it long before Moto' if we were privy...) they couldn't deliver a G5.
How can they site Apple's choice of PPC only against Apple, uhGH? I suppose that would make sense when you throw out PPC in your own offices and eat your competitor's dog food. Bizarre. Now I'm beginning to understand the animal that some people have been defending all these years.
Rumour or not, there is a clear tinge of Moto' infamous 'clone grudge' held against Apple here. Whatever it cost Moto', it cost Apple far more in Tower sales. Look at where Apple Tower sales are now, a result that can be traced right back to Motorola's inability to deliver. Whether IBM could have cranked the G4 up to 3 gig, I dunno, but I think we may have breached the 2 gig barrier by now judging by what has been highlighted.
The fact we are getting the 970 this year (?) in light of Moto' throwing in the Altivec towel so late on is...testament to IBM's ability to deliver it seems.
With Tower sales on 155, 000 give or take...and on the verge of collapse it is imperative we get the 970 and hope IBM can successively crank up the pain on the Wintel camp.
I know this French stuff is rumour...but it could almost fit exactly the ominous silence that has come from Apple and Motorola over the last four years. If you were Apple, you wouldn't comment. Why would you? Especially when you knew were going legal because your chip partner failed on delivery of faster G4s, held back your 2nd supplier to deliver faster G4 chips (Steve Jobs couldn't have stomached that very well...), chips weren't on time, couldn't cope with deadlines to deliver cpus, and key in the whole argument, stopped development on the G5 at the last minute because Apple wasn't a big enough customer while leaving them with the same sluggish G4 development! How Motorola think they could get out of that without a lawsuit...well, only they would know.
I feel sorry for the Mac platform put in jeopardy at the hands of Motorola and only sandbagged by much ingenuinty by Apple's management. Tower sales in the can. Hundreds of thousands of defected Mac to Wintel pros...and millions of frustrated Mac owners who still can't buy a competitive cpu desktop Mac.
I'm sure some may discard these rumours or not agree. But We'll know soon enough. I'm expecting Apple to hit these guys with a multi-billion dollar lawsuit. Apple will end up owning them.
Lemon Bon Bon
Note just that it is extremely interesting Ã*' to learn that IBM can manufacture of G4 very fast. They will be probably the new chips of entry of range of APPLE. It is indeed not very probable that Motorola continues to work with APPLE within sight of their divergences.
G3+SIMD in.
Moto and G4 out.
2 gig G3s for Apple's eMacs/iMacs/iBooks?
Maybe Moki's hints about something other than just a 970. A one-two double IBM whammy.
I can't wait. Hell, a 2 gig G3? Maybe? On Rio? Maybe?
It would be ironic if the last decent Apple cpu was to storm Apple's consumer lines once more.
We'll see. I've resigned myself to the mother of all waits. I hope this June begins the beginning of Apple's PPC comeback trail. Cue Rocky music.
Cue one Lemon Bon Bon stepping up with wallet to buy that dual 970 from local Apple dealer.
Lemon Bon Bon
End of Line
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
I'm expecting Apple to hit these guys with a multi-billion dollar lawsuit. Apple will end up owning them.
I'm expecting Apple to shut up and work harder.
Anyway, keeping a second potential supplier on the back burner, or aquiring the designs/engineers to let Apple make more direct contributions to the PPC, and possibly farm out fabrication "just in case" is something they always have to do.
Lawsuits tend to lose their punitive value for the plaintiff in these situations. They cost lots and lots, take too long, and distract companies and investors from the business at hand, but they can still make for good leverage.
Well, since the G4 is still in the remaining product lines (sans iBook), there may well be a need for Motorola beyond the transition (assuming Apple uses the 970).
This lawsuit may very well be a move to get Motorola to allow Apple to see fab partners beyond Mot or IBM. Can someone say "Intel Perhaps"? There had been those rumors floating around that Intel and Steve Jobs have been getting cozy of late.
While it's been stated that Mot gave IBM permission to fab the G4 (or was it just the G3+AltiVec?), IBM may not necessarily be interested in being the main supplier for Apple on these parts, as I'm sure they'd just as well wait until all product lines use the 970/980/990.
Granted, we'd all love Steve to announce the PM970. Oh, and one more thing, the PB 970. Oh, and one more thing, the iMac 970 oh, well, here's the iBook and eMac with a 970 as well. The eMac starting out at just $24.97.
But I don't think that'll happen this summer.
theFly
Fly on the Mac
www.flyonthemac.com
Rumors You Can Bet On
Originally posted by TheFly
While it's been stated that Mot gave IBM permission to fab the G4 (or was it just the G3+AltiVec?), IBM may not necessarily be interested in being the main supplier for Apple on these parts, as I'm sure they'd just as well wait until all product lines use the 970/980/990.
At one point Motorola contracted IBM to produce the G4, because Motorola couldn't produce them in enough quantity. Fortunately for Motorola, IBM will cheerfully fab anything you pay them to. Unfortunately for Motorola, IBM is the most expensive foundry in the world. I expect that Mot took a bath that time, even if they did get a discount for being in AIM (which they might have, and might not have).
Because of the patent pooling and cooperation that went into the PPC (IBM engineers did a lot of work on AltiVec, for instance), I'm sure IBM could come up with their own G4 and start selling it, no problem. In fact, I'll bet Steve was not happy when IBM pooh-poohed the G4. With IBM now on the SIMD bandwagon, finally, we might see something out of them that can compete with, or replace, the 7457. This might be the 'sandbagging' that moki mysteriously alluded to some time back, or it might not.
IBM: Certainly.
IBM: By the way we can make 'em at 800 if you want.
MOT: No 500 will be fine thanks.
STEVE: What?
MOT: Go away Steve this is between us and IBM.
STEVE: Now hold on!...
MOT: Go away and read the small print...
STEVE: Bastards!
MOT: True
STEVE: So we're going to buy them off IBM
MOT: Er...OK
STEVE: We'd like to add Altivec as well
MOT: Er...then it would be a G4 Steve
STEVE: Lets call it a G3+
MOT: No, lets call it a G4. Now who are the only people allowed to supply you G4's?
STEVE: Bastards!
Given the fact that unusually aggressive caching was the key to the G3's performance, and given that it took the G3 a while to get to 500MHz, it doesn't strike me as unlikely at all. The G4 was then stuck with the misfortune of starting out at 500MHz, which is when the bug reared its head.
Add Motorola's other woes in, season with IBM's lack of interest in the G4, and simmer for the two years it takes to roll out a new CPU design.
Bastards!
I didn't realise that G4 was also 'pile cream' until I saw it on Tarrant on TV the other night.
Hmmm. Bring that G3+Simd plus 200 bus on stream as soon as. Or a G3+ Rio.
The WWDC onwards is going to get very interesting.
Only 2 months-ish to go now... 8)
I'm very intrigued by Fred Anderson's 'No comment' on Intel. With Steve bringing Intels to Pixar...I wonder, will Panther be the first step of Apple going platform neutral? It will ensure Apple never gets caught by the curlies ever again. The 'options' pregnant pause from Steve Jobs reverberates all the more with continued reading...and in light of all the smoke signals since.
What is even more intriguing is that Software and other products (that 'spare box' in Apple's grid...) is now on the verge of surpassing 'power'Mac revenue. This is a definite trend over the last year or so. I'm expecting a software blitz of Panther, iWorks and sundy iApps/updates to bolster software revenue further. Anderson hinted as such. And with money coming in with a music 'wow' service and more compelling .Mac freebies...could we see revenue from software surpassing several lines of Apple hardware by the next quarter or so? That would be unprecedented. And a welcome direction from my point of view. That frees up Apple's hardware politics considerably. Hmmm.
But, I think 970 POWERMacs will bring revenue for the 'sales engine' back on stream. So, who knows, with a 970 in one or two desktops, more Apple stores etc and hopefully a cheaper edu'/home computer than the iMac 2...and consolidation of the laptop range with a further adddition maybe(? Perhaps another 12 inch Powerbook model...or sub-iBook model...) or another DLD and...AND, we may see Apple heading back towards being an 8 billion company again.
The planets seem to be moving into alignment...slowly...yet irresistibly.
Lemon Bon Bon