And those of us in the west think they work TOO hard. Life is about balance, and if TSMC can’t understand that, then they have little chance of success here. Remember the Foxconn suicides? Yeah, won’t don’t put up with a workplace like that. We walk.
That may explain why east Asians are doing so well in American schools they work hard, during the pandemic they were studying while most American kids were taking a siesta at least the lower 80% were?
This reminds me of people who thought the Russian military was so mighty because their soldiers were willing to endure great hardship that Westerners would never be willing to endure. Doesn't look so mighty now, does it?
Thinking people have opinions, they argue, they refuse to be taken advantage of. That's inconvenient for managers in the short run. But in the long run, it leads to innovation and progress. Asian economies do really well when they are adopting Western ideas -- basically playing catch-up. Once caught up, they hit a wall.
One thing I've noticed about some first generation Asian immigrants at my company is that they will work very hard, but it's the work of the damned. They put themselves into a zombie like trance and plod ahead. They will faithfully follow orders. But they aren't proactive, they don't innovate. They might love to work, but they don't love the work. Second generation is the kind of the best of both worlds -- they have some of the work ethic of their parents, but they're more creative and open. I wonder if that explains somebody like Lisa Su (came to US at age of 3) or Jen-Hsun Huang (came to US at age 9).
But any way, sorry you've lived the lives of slaves, TSMC engineers. We have a better way here, even if you don't understand or appreciate it yet. But you will.
For as fat and lazy as Americans have become, the adjusted per capital GDP (based on PPP - purchasing power parity) in the US is still higher than in Taiwan.
And that is including all the fat and lazy ones. Which the TMSC managers don’t believe exist in Taiwan.
Throwing Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and various other rich, fat cats into the average, to pump up the numbers doesn’t mean America necessarily is doing better, at ground level, the housing affordability gap for people between 17 and 40 is a very real thing in the UK, America, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand these days despite the fact that on the outside, they appear to be very rich countries, inside there are some very big problems coming to a head in the near future. We even have some Republicans (the bald eagle from Florida) proposing to cutting out, getting rid of Social Security and Medicare. Note: Taiwan is one of those pesky single payer countries.
TSMC is 1000% correct. PERIOD! We used to be a nation that led the world, now we just ‘watch’ the world go by.
That statement be somewhat true, but the upper bracket of the country isn’t doing badly not at all, it’s all the other areas of the country below, that are having trouble and that applies to most of the other English speaking countries in the world today and it’s getting worse.
For as fat and lazy as Americans have become, the adjusted per capital GDP (based on PPP - purchasing power parity) in the US is still higher than in Taiwan.
And that is including all the fat and lazy ones. Which the TMSC managers don’t believe exist in Taiwan.
Per capita numbers is an average and takes into account many different things. The USA at $75K vs Taiwan at 69.5K is a relatively close number. But, if you look at poverty levels between the two countries, Taiwan has less than 1% poverty, whereas the US is over 10%. Different distribution system.
The fact is, in the US, many people don't want to work. They feel working is beneath them. In Taiwan, it's considered an honor to work and be successful. In the US, we can get away with it for now because the US currently has more money. However, the percentage of global wealth in the US has been on a pretty steady decline for the last couple of decades. Eventually, that well will run dry and not working will not longer be an option.
Margaret Thatcher has the same feeling too…. blame the people on the production line for the failings of management, the people on the production line are somehow, responsible for sales, engineering, design, import, export, all financial and real estate decisions. In short they are to blame for everything, a common theme throughout most of the western English speaking countries. There is a reason Germany, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan are doing somewhat better, they don’t throw their production, tradesmen, craftsman people under the bus at all opportunities. They still value actually making things and management isn’t swanning around as the Lord of the English Manor.
And those of us in the west think they work TOO hard. Life is about balance, and if TSMC can’t understand that, then they have little chance of success here. Remember the Foxconn suicides? Yeah, won’t don’t put up with a workplace like that. We walk.
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Americans have NO business to impose their values on the Asians who see differently. Asians take pride in hard work and education more than Americans do. They love electronics and technology. They would be happy working 7 days a week.
That’s why Asian and Indian Americans are the most successful minority groups in the US. They work very hard in school, and at their employment. The rest of us should emulate that.
That is somewhat true, but the people coming over here from China and India and Korea represent the cream of the crop. Most of the people are living four to six in a small cramp apartment in the sky, they are not the people you see here in America getting an education or working, it’s still very much a Dickerson world in Asia for the majority of people, a world in which they will never leave.
Statements like these are off putting and really serve no purpose. For me, it always comes down to having people on your team who are smart, adaptable, and get things done.
By smart I don’t mean having a fancy diploma hanging on the wall, but having relevant knowledge around what’s needed to do the job, learn new things on the fly, and always adding value to the team.
By adaptable I mean being able to handle change on many levels, whether technical, social, ground rules changing, priorities changing, etc., without making a big deal about it but staying focused on achieving the best possible outcome in a world of uncertainty.
Getting things done needs no further explanation. If you need to work harder or longer to deliver on your commitments, within the calendar time allowed, that’s your prerogative. If you work smarter, or both smarter and harder, good for you. If you finish early, or if you need extra help, you work with the team to backfill wherever the team needs your help or work with the team leader to pull in the appropriate extra help in a timely manner, so the whole team delivers on its commitments.
Results matter more than broad, over generalized, or small minded judgements.
That’s why Asian and Indian Americans are the most successful minority groups in the US. They work very hard in school, and at their employment. The rest of us should emulate that.
I am curious what the data is on third generation immigrant families still possessing that same work ethic is. I suspect that they would be less like their grandparents and more like the cultural norm.
People will put up with long work days here as long as it is a crunch period followed by a slack period. Working 7 day weeks every week is just going to result in burnout.
TSMC fears of American workers not performing at the self-sacrificing level of Chinese (by extension, Taiwanese) workers is well justified.
There is a documentary call "American Factory" showing what happened when a Chinese auto glass manufacturer (Fuyao) took over a shuttered GM auto plant in Ohio, (2016) and hired about 2,000 laid-off assembly workers. It didn't go well. Employee expectations were not met. Employees at the time failed to realize the reason the GM plant closed was losses due to payroll costs. After a protracted unionization effort workers slowly began to realize that if Fuyao didn't make a profit, they would pull up stakes and everyone would lose his job. Unionization failed. Workers came around to their new diminished reality, and a true balance between workers rights and corporate profits was reached.
You're leaving out the part where Fuyao heavily invested in automation at that plant to reduce cost. That's the story of the entire auto industry and U.S. manufacturing in general. It's nothing new. United States manufacturing output has doubled since the 1980s but the number of human jobs available is 1/3 what it was in the 1980s.
This is immaterial. It only shows the difference in political systems. Meaning the time is mandated in some countries, while in the US it is a company/employee issue. Many (I’d say most, with some industries that excluded, and not including part time it low pay service industries (fast food etc)) companies offer reasonably good holiday and vacation policies.
Gong! You're incorrect. The United States is the second worst in the world!
It’s be nice to read but is behind a paywall. I’m not incorrect. I said there were exceptions.
Here's your non-paywall link. Unsurprisingly, the second-worst global ranking for paid vacation days is unchanged. You are incorrect. "Exceptions" wouldn't explain that ranking unless you considered the vast majority of U.S. jobs to be exceptions....which wouldn't make any sense.
As an American who grew up in Taiwan, westerners are indeed very lazy, and TSMC succeeded because they were hardworking, smart and efficient. TSMC and SAMSUNG's manufacturing process is significantly ahead of INTEL, which explains everything. It is not profitable for TSMC to set up a factory in the United States. Instead, it is forced by the US government. The US government is worried that a war between Taiwan and China will affect the world's chip supply.
The Netflix documentary American Factory offers some insight into the differences between China and U.S. work cultures.
China and U.S. are more similar than people think. China is aggressively using automation in manufacturing just like the U.S. did. Fact: they don't care how hard one human worked relative to another if they can both be replaced by robots.
And those of us in the west think they work TOO hard. Life is about balance, and if TSMC can’t understand that, then they have little chance of success here. Remember the Foxconn suicides? Yeah, won’t don’t put up with a workplace like that. We walk.
I am fine with this opinion as long as you don't complain when an American company moves jobs overseas.
It’s not about the quantity of work but the quality. I think Americans work too much, not commenting on the quality.
However the most important in life isn’t work, it’s leisure. At least for most of us who are unlike to work in a job that might not necessarily be their passion.
As an American who grew up in Taiwan, westerners are indeed very lazy, and TSMC succeeded because they were hardworking, smart and efficient. TSMC and SAMSUNG's manufacturing process is significantly ahead of INTEL, which explains everything. It is not profitable for TSMC to set up a factory in the United States. Instead, it is forced by the US government. The US government is worried that a war between Taiwan and China will affect the world's chip supply.
Intel did not lose the process lead because of 'lazy workers,' they lost it because of greedy and shortsighted senior managers and board members who were more focused on quarterly profits than long run growth.
Or, more specifically, Intel lost the lead because they refused to fab the iPhone SOC at the price Apple requested. That's not because Intel had workers lazier than TSMC, it's because Intel management insisted on gross margins much higher than TSMC's.
The fab business is all about economies of scale that generate enough profit to warrant the R&D investment to develop the next node and build the next fab. The labor costs are a rounding error in that equation.
If Intel has retained (or can rehire) the talented engineers and scientists who gave them the lead in the first place, AND if they have enough money to build the fabs (which is mostly about buying the equipment), then Intel can retake the lead. Whether you can whip your slaves into working another hour has little to do with it.
Comments
Thinking people have opinions, they argue, they refuse to be taken advantage of. That's inconvenient for managers in the short run. But in the long run, it leads to innovation and progress. Asian economies do really well when they are adopting Western ideas -- basically playing catch-up. Once caught up, they hit a wall.
One thing I've noticed about some first generation Asian immigrants at my company is that they will work very hard, but it's the work of the damned. They put themselves into a zombie like trance and plod ahead. They will faithfully follow orders. But they aren't proactive, they don't innovate. They might love to work, but they don't love the work. Second generation is the kind of the best of both worlds -- they have some of the work ethic of their parents, but they're more creative and open. I wonder if that explains somebody like Lisa Su (came to US at age of 3) or Jen-Hsun Huang (came to US at age 9).
But any way, sorry you've lived the lives of slaves, TSMC engineers. We have a better way here, even if you don't understand or appreciate it yet. But you will.
By smart I don’t mean having a fancy diploma hanging on the wall, but having relevant knowledge around what’s needed to do the job, learn new things on the fly, and always adding value to the team.
By adaptable I mean being able to handle change on many levels, whether technical, social, ground rules changing, priorities changing, etc., without making a big deal about it but staying focused on achieving the best possible outcome in a world of uncertainty.
Getting things done needs no further explanation. If you need to work harder or longer to deliver on your commitments, within the calendar time allowed, that’s your prerogative. If you work smarter, or both smarter and harder, good for you. If you finish early, or if you need extra help, you work with the team to backfill wherever the team needs your help or work with the team leader to pull in the appropriate extra help in a timely manner, so the whole team delivers on its commitments.
Results matter more than broad, over generalized, or small minded judgements.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/04/the-10-countries-with-the-least-paid-vacationthe-us-is-no-2.html
https://www.theregister.com/2022/12/06/robots_china_employment/
And France says "Hold my beer (wine)."
Or, more specifically, Intel lost the lead because they refused to fab the iPhone SOC at the price Apple requested. That's not because Intel had workers lazier than TSMC, it's because Intel management insisted on gross margins much higher than TSMC's.
The fab business is all about economies of scale that generate enough profit to warrant the R&D investment to develop the next node and build the next fab. The labor costs are a rounding error in that equation.
If Intel has retained (or can rehire) the talented engineers and scientists who gave them the lead in the first place, AND if they have enough money to build the fabs (which is mostly about buying the equipment), then Intel can retake the lead. Whether you can whip your slaves into working another hour has little to do with it.