Microsoft entered negotiations to sell Bing to Apple in 2020

AppleInsiderAppleInsider
Posted:
in General Discussion

After losing default search status to Google in 2017, Microsoft discussed selling Bing to Apple in 2020, but talks fizzled out.

Bing could have been sold to Apple
Bing could have been sold to Apple



The Google antitrust bench trial continues to reveal details about its relationship with Apple and how it affected other companies. Microsoft executives say Apple used Bing as a bargaining chip, but more details have emerged from anonymous sources.

According to a report from Bloomberg, Microsoft floated the idea to sell Bing to Apple in 2020. Negotiations were made with Apple SVP Eddy Cue, but they apparently never left the exploratory phase.

Bing had been the default search engine on Apple products from 2013 to 2017, but Google took over from there. The revenue share deal with Apple eliminated Bing's ability to compete, even when Microsoft made drastic offers.

Eddy Cue was on the stand on Tuesday, and he said Google was the only option for Apple because it was, and is, the best search engine option. The company also isn't interested in creating its own search engine to compete with Google, which explains why Apple avoided buying Bing.

Apple and Google's financial relationship is under a lot of scrutiny from the US Department of Justice. It's part of a greater antitrust investigation meant to determine if Google is using its money and power to keep the competition from getting a foothold.

Read on AppleInsider

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 22
    plalondeplalonde Posts: 2member
    Eddy should not be happy with this news after his testimonial earlier this week saying the opposite...
    Apple executive Eddy Cue is expected to testify in court that the company has no plan to make an "Apple Search" engine, because its deal with Google is the best for users.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 2 of 22
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,564member
    plalonde said:
    Eddy should not be happy with this news after his testimonial earlier this week saying the opposite...
    Apple executive Eddy Cue is expected to testify in court that the company has no plan to make an "Apple Search" engine, because its deal with Google is the best for users.
    Why? This was three years ago. They have dropped the idea. 
    fastasleepdewmeFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 22
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
    plalonde said:
    Eddy should not be happy with this news after his testimonial earlier this week saying the opposite...
    Apple executive Eddy Cue is expected to testify in court that the company has no plan to make an "Apple Search" engine, because its deal with Google is the best for users.

    You're not keeping up. That was what some of the media were saying what Eddy Cue was expected to say. This before Eddy Cue actual testimony.

    This was what he actually said when he took the stand, according to AI .........

    >Eddy Cue was on the stand on Tuesday, and he said Google was the only option for Apple because it was, and is, the best search engine option. The company also isn't interested in creating its own search engine to compete with Google, which explains why Apple avoided buying Bing.<

    See any reason why Eddy Cue should be unhappy?

     

    edited September 2023 MacProsphericdewmemuthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 22
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
    >Bing had been the default search engine on Apple products from 2013 to 2017, but Google took over from there. The revenue share deal with Apple eliminated Bing's ability to compete, even when Microsoft made drastic offers.<


    I don't know where they got that idea from. According to this ....



    Bing wasn't able to compete with Google even when they were the default search for Apple from 2013 to 2017.

    The way I look at it, the importance of the "default" position is now way over blown when it comes to market share. If the "default" was that as much of a factor with regards to gaining market share as some are saying, then MS Edge and Bing should have much more than low single digit market share because they are the defaults on about 70% of the World desktop computers. 



    The fact that users can now easily change their "defaults", being the original installed default is no longer as meaningful as it was when MS IE was the default browser on Windows computers (in the mid 90's and early 2000's) and changing the default wasn't always that easy (thanks to MS). 




    watto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 22
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,409member
    davidw said:
    >Bing had been the default search engine on Apple products from 2013 to 2017, but Google took over from there. The revenue share deal with Apple eliminated Bing's ability to compete, even when Microsoft made drastic offers.<


    I don't know where they got that idea from. According to this ....



    Bing wasn't able to compete with Google even when they were the default search for Apple from 2013 to 2017.

    The way I look at it, the importance of the "default" position is now way over blown when it comes to market share. If the "default" was that as much of a factor with regards to gaining market share as some are saying, then MS Edge and Bing should have much more than low single digit market share because they are the defaults on about 70% of the World desktop computers. 



    The fact that users can now easily change their "defaults", being the original installed default is no longer as meaningful as it was when MS IE was the default browser on Windows computers (in the mid 90's and early 2000's) and changing the default wasn't always that easy (thanks to MS). 




    I still think defaults still important for Google, considering what they pay to Apple.  If not, they would pay nothing  to Apple and expect most customers to change to Google Search on their devices.  
    dewme
  • Reply 6 of 22
    plalondeplalonde Posts: 2member
    davidw said:
    plalonde said:
    Eddy should not be happy with this news after his testimonial earlier this week saying the opposite...
    Apple executive Eddy Cue is expected to testify in court that the company has no plan to make an "Apple Search" engine, because its deal with Google is the best for users.

    You're not keeping up. That was what some of the media were saying what Eddy Cue was expected to say. This before Eddy Cue actual testimony.

    This was what he actually said when he took the stand, according to AI .........

    >Eddy Cue was on the stand on Tuesday, and he said Google was the only option for Apple because it was, and is, the best search engine option. The company also isn't interested in creating its own search engine to compete with Google, which explains why Apple avoided buying Bing.<

    See any reason why Eddy Cue should be unhappy?

     

    Ok my bad, I may have read it too fast "Cue is expected to tell the federal court".
    MacProsphericwatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 22
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    >Bing had been the default search engine on Apple products from 2013 to 2017, but Google took over from there. The revenue share deal with Apple eliminated Bing's ability to compete, even when Microsoft made drastic offers.<


    I don't know where they got that idea from. According to this ....



    Bing wasn't able to compete with Google even when they were the default search for Apple from 2013 to 2017.

    The way I look at it, the importance of the "default" position is now way over blown when it comes to market share. If the "default" was that as much of a factor with regards to gaining market share as some are saying, then MS Edge and Bing should have much more than low single digit market share because they are the defaults on about 70% of the World desktop computers. 



    The fact that users can now easily change their "defaults", being the original installed default is no longer as meaningful as it was when MS IE was the default browser on Windows computers (in the mid 90's and early 2000's) and changing the default wasn't always that easy (thanks to MS). 




    I still think defaults still important for Google, considering what they pay to Apple.  If not, they would pay nothing  to Apple and expect most customers to change to Google Search on their devices.  

    But if you read between the lines, Google revenue sharing deal with Apple, which includes Apple having Google as the default search on Safari, was really about discouraging Apple from developing their own search engine. Over 50% of Google search occurs on iOS. This is the reason why Google is willing to share a portion of their iOS search revenue with Apple. It's not about being the default but about their fear that Apple might develop their own search engine for iOS. Thus maybe taking away a significant portion of Google iOS search revenue. More than what Google is paying with their revenue sharing deal.  

    So long as there is no smoking gun that Google offered their revenue deal in exchange for Apple giving up any idea of developing their own search engine or that of Apple threatening to develop their own search engine unless Google pays them so much, there's not much of a case for anti-competition with the deal. There is no proof that Apple can develop a search engine that will compete with Google. Apple search could end up no better than MS Bing. But Google would rather not find out as Apple do have a much more loyal user base than MS.
    tmaymuthuk_vanalingamFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 22
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,409member
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    >Bing had been the default search engine on Apple products from 2013 to 2017, but Google took over from there. The revenue share deal with Apple eliminated Bing's ability to compete, even when Microsoft made drastic offers.<


    I don't know where they got that idea from. According to this ....



    Bing wasn't able to compete with Google even when they were the default search for Apple from 2013 to 2017.

    The way I look at it, the importance of the "default" position is now way over blown when it comes to market share. If the "default" was that as much of a factor with regards to gaining market share as some are saying, then MS Edge and Bing should have much more than low single digit market share because they are the defaults on about 70% of the World desktop computers. 



    The fact that users can now easily change their "defaults", being the original installed default is no longer as meaningful as it was when MS IE was the default browser on Windows computers (in the mid 90's and early 2000's) and changing the default wasn't always that easy (thanks to MS). 




    I still think defaults still important for Google, considering what they pay to Apple.  If not, they would pay nothing  to Apple and expect most customers to change to Google Search on their devices.  

    But if you read between the lines, Google revenue sharing deal with Apple, which includes Apple having Google as the default search on Safari, was really about discouraging Apple from developing their own search engine. Over 50% of Google search occurs on iOS. This is the reason why Google is willing to share a portion of their iOS search revenue with Apple. It's not about being the default but about their fear that Apple might develop their own search engine for iOS. Thus maybe taking away a significant portion of Google iOS search revenue. More than what Google is paying with their revenue sharing deal.  

    So long as there is no smoking gun that Google offered their revenue deal in exchange for Apple giving up any idea of developing their own search engine or that of Apple threatening to develop their own search engine unless Google pays them so much, there's not much of a case for anti-competition with the deal. There is no proof that Apple can develop a search engine that will compete with Google. Apple search could end up no better than MS Bing. But Google would rather not find out as Apple do have a much more loyal user base than MS.
    I don't think Google is worried about Apple developing a search engine,
    Apple won't make a Google search rival, says Eddy Cue (appleinsider.com)

    And I don't think Google would have issues with the "loyal" Apple user base.  If you noticed, Apple loyal users are more focused in hardware (Mac, iPad, Apple Watch, iPhone).  But software and services is a different story.  Most Apple users have Gmail accounts, and don't use iCloud accounts.  MS Office and Google Workspace usage in Apple devices is ahead compared to the Apple suite of apps, even though they are free.  And even mobile apps and TV services like Google Maps, Spotify, Netflix and Disney+ are more popular than Apple alternatives.  I don't think an Apple search engine will make any difference to Google.  
    gatorguy
  • Reply 9 of 22
    M68000M68000 Posts: 728member
    Why would microsoft spend so much time and money making Bing just to sell it to somebody else??   Bing is a huge strategic investment for Microsoft and “intellectual property”.  Plus it integrates with the Edge browser baked into every new windows pc you will see.  

    If Apple really wanted to be involved with search ,  why can’t they build their own?  Clearly Apple would be more than decade behind but they have tons of money to throw at it, right? Wouldn’t they have already started work by now?  

    Bing is the only real competitor to Google,  hard to imagine giving away the house so to speak.


    edited September 2023 thtwatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 22
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    >Bing had been the default search engine on Apple products from 2013 to 2017, but Google took over from there. The revenue share deal with Apple eliminated Bing's ability to compete, even when Microsoft made drastic offers.<


    I don't know where they got that idea from. According to this ....



    Bing wasn't able to compete with Google even when they were the default search for Apple from 2013 to 2017.

    The way I look at it, the importance of the "default" position is now way over blown when it comes to market share. If the "default" was that as much of a factor with regards to gaining market share as some are saying, then MS Edge and Bing should have much more than low single digit market share because they are the defaults on about 70% of the World desktop computers. 



    The fact that users can now easily change their "defaults", being the original installed default is no longer as meaningful as it was when MS IE was the default browser on Windows computers (in the mid 90's and early 2000's) and changing the default wasn't always that easy (thanks to MS). 




    I still think defaults still important for Google, considering what they pay to Apple.  If not, they would pay nothing  to Apple and expect most customers to change to Google Search on their devices.  

    But if you read between the lines, Google revenue sharing deal with Apple, which includes Apple having Google as the default search on Safari, was really about discouraging Apple from developing their own search engine. Over 50% of Google search occurs on iOS. This is the reason why Google is willing to share a portion of their iOS search revenue with Apple. It's not about being the default but about their fear that Apple might develop their own search engine for iOS. Thus maybe taking away a significant portion of Google iOS search revenue. More than what Google is paying with their revenue sharing deal.  

    So long as there is no smoking gun that Google offered their revenue deal in exchange for Apple giving up any idea of developing their own search engine or that of Apple threatening to develop their own search engine unless Google pays them so much, there's not much of a case for anti-competition with the deal. There is no proof that Apple can develop a search engine that will compete with Google. Apple search could end up no better than MS Bing. But Google would rather not find out as Apple do have a much more loyal user base than MS.
    I don't think Google is worried about Apple developing a search engine,
    Apple won't make a Google search rival, says Eddy Cue (appleinsider.com)

    And I don't think Google would have issues with the "loyal" Apple user base.  If you noticed, Apple loyal users are more focused in hardware (Mac, iPad, Apple Watch, iPhone).  But software and services is a different story.  Most Apple users have Gmail accounts, and don't use iCloud accounts.  MS Office and Google Workspace usage in Apple devices is ahead compared to the Apple suite of apps, even though they are free.  And even mobile apps and TV services like Google Maps, Spotify, Netflix and Disney+ are more popular than Apple alternatives.  I don't think an Apple search engine will make any difference to Google.  

    Actually, Apple Map is taking a significant amount of market share on iOS, from Google Map. Even though Apple Map might be better with certain features of maps, Google overall is still the better map service. It's hard to find actual market share of Apple Map vs Google Map on iOS (with Apple secrecy policies) but just using napkin math, consensus seems to indicate that Apple Map have about 12% of the overall mapping service market share and it's only on iOS. Since iOS is only about 22% of the mobile OS market, then Apple Map is on about 45% - 50% of the iOS devices (That would also include users that uses both Apple Map and Google map). That is not an insignificant amount of loss revenue for Google with Google Map on iOS. And mainly due to Apple loyal user base choosing to use Apple Map.


    And the reason why Apple develop their own mapping service was because at the time Google was not supplying iOS Google Map users with the same features that were found on their Android version. Apple was concern that if Google were to never develop Google Map on iOS so that was as good as Google Map on Android, they would lose device sales from mobile users that consider having a good mapping service as an essential feature on their mobile device.

    Of course this is not proof that Apple would be able to do the same with an Apple search engine, but Google knows that if there was anyone capable of stealing a significant amount of market share from them on iOS, that will hurt their bottom line, Apple would be that one.

    And consider that Chrome market share on iOS is less than 5%.


    Here's an anti-trust lawsuit filed last year in the US, against Google and Apple, claiming there was such an agreement. Of course none of the allegations been proven yet and even if they were, it still might not amount to any anti-trust violations. But it's interesting to read the case they have against Google and Apple.



    spherictmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 22
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,214member
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    >Bing had been the default search engine on Apple products from 2013 to 2017, but Google took over from there. The revenue share deal with Apple eliminated Bing's ability to compete, even when Microsoft made drastic offers.<


    I don't know where they got that idea from. According to this ....



    Bing wasn't able to compete with Google even when they were the default search for Apple from 2013 to 2017.

    The way I look at it, the importance of the "default" position is now way over blown when it comes to market share. If the "default" was that as much of a factor with regards to gaining market share as some are saying, then MS Edge and Bing should have much more than low single digit market share because they are the defaults on about 70% of the World desktop computers. 



    The fact that users can now easily change their "defaults", being the original installed default is no longer as meaningful as it was when MS IE was the default browser on Windows computers (in the mid 90's and early 2000's) and changing the default wasn't always that easy (thanks to MS). 




    I still think defaults still important for Google, considering what they pay to Apple.  If not, they would pay nothing  to Apple and expect most customers to change to Google Search on their devices.  

    But if you read between the lines, Google revenue sharing deal with Apple, which includes Apple having Google as the default search on Safari, was really about discouraging Apple from developing their own search engine. Over 50% of Google search occurs on iOS. This is the reason why Google is willing to share a portion of their iOS search revenue with Apple. It's not about being the default but about their fear that Apple might develop their own search engine for iOS. Thus maybe taking away a significant portion of Google iOS search revenue. More than what Google is paying with their revenue sharing deal.  

    So long as there is no smoking gun that Google offered their revenue deal in exchange for Apple giving up any idea of developing their own search engine or that of Apple threatening to develop their own search engine unless Google pays them so much, there's not much of a case for anti-competition with the deal. There is no proof that Apple can develop a search engine that will compete with Google. Apple search could end up no better than MS Bing. But Google would rather not find out as Apple do have a much more loyal user base than MS.
    I don't think Google is worried about Apple developing a search engine,
    Apple won't make a Google search rival, says Eddy Cue (appleinsider.com)

    And I don't think Google would have issues with the "loyal" Apple user base.  If you noticed, Apple loyal users are more focused in hardware (Mac, iPad, Apple Watch, iPhone).  But software and services is a different story.  Most Apple users have Gmail accounts, and don't use iCloud accounts.  MS Office and Google Workspace usage in Apple devices is ahead compared to the Apple suite of apps, even though they are free.  And even mobile apps and TV services like Google Maps, Spotify, Netflix and Disney+ are more popular than Apple alternatives.  I don't think an Apple search engine will make any difference to Google.  


    And consider that Chrome market share on iOS is less than 5%.


    Here's an anti-trust lawsuit filed last year in the US, against Google and Apple, claiming there was such an agreement. Of course none of the allegations been proven yet and even if they were, it still might not amount to any anti-trust violations. But it's interesting to read the case they have against Google and Apple.




    That's not a great example considering the thread topic. All competing browsers are knee-capped by Apple, so any advantages are muted. If it were Google doing so, it would certainly be subject to a solid antitrust case.
    edited September 2023
  • Reply 12 of 22
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,409member
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    >Bing had been the default search engine on Apple products from 2013 to 2017, but Google took over from there. The revenue share deal with Apple eliminated Bing's ability to compete, even when Microsoft made drastic offers.<


    I don't know where they got that idea from. According to this ....



    Bing wasn't able to compete with Google even when they were the default search for Apple from 2013 to 2017.

    The way I look at it, the importance of the "default" position is now way over blown when it comes to market share. If the "default" was that as much of a factor with regards to gaining market share as some are saying, then MS Edge and Bing should have much more than low single digit market share because they are the defaults on about 70% of the World desktop computers. 



    The fact that users can now easily change their "defaults", being the original installed default is no longer as meaningful as it was when MS IE was the default browser on Windows computers (in the mid 90's and early 2000's) and changing the default wasn't always that easy (thanks to MS). 




    I still think defaults still important for Google, considering what they pay to Apple.  If not, they would pay nothing  to Apple and expect most customers to change to Google Search on their devices.  

    But if you read between the lines, Google revenue sharing deal with Apple, which includes Apple having Google as the default search on Safari, was really about discouraging Apple from developing their own search engine. Over 50% of Google search occurs on iOS. This is the reason why Google is willing to share a portion of their iOS search revenue with Apple. It's not about being the default but about their fear that Apple might develop their own search engine for iOS. Thus maybe taking away a significant portion of Google iOS search revenue. More than what Google is paying with their revenue sharing deal.  

    So long as there is no smoking gun that Google offered their revenue deal in exchange for Apple giving up any idea of developing their own search engine or that of Apple threatening to develop their own search engine unless Google pays them so much, there's not much of a case for anti-competition with the deal. There is no proof that Apple can develop a search engine that will compete with Google. Apple search could end up no better than MS Bing. But Google would rather not find out as Apple do have a much more loyal user base than MS.
    I don't think Google is worried about Apple developing a search engine,
    Apple won't make a Google search rival, says Eddy Cue (appleinsider.com)

    And I don't think Google would have issues with the "loyal" Apple user base.  If you noticed, Apple loyal users are more focused in hardware (Mac, iPad, Apple Watch, iPhone).  But software and services is a different story.  Most Apple users have Gmail accounts, and don't use iCloud accounts.  MS Office and Google Workspace usage in Apple devices is ahead compared to the Apple suite of apps, even though they are free.  And even mobile apps and TV services like Google Maps, Spotify, Netflix and Disney+ are more popular than Apple alternatives.  I don't think an Apple search engine will make any difference to Google.  

    Actually, Apple Map is taking a significant amount of market share on iOS, from Google Map. Even though Apple Map might be better with certain features of maps, Google overall is still the better map service. It's hard to find actual market share of Apple Map vs Google Map on iOS (with Apple secrecy policies) but just using napkin math, consensus seems to indicate that Apple Map have about 12% of the overall mapping service market share and it's only on iOS. Since iOS is only about 22% of the mobile OS market, then Apple Map is on about 45% - 50% of the iOS devices (That would also include users that uses both Apple Map and Google map). That is not an insignificant amount of loss revenue for Google with Google Map on iOS. And mainly due to Apple loyal user base choosing to use Apple Map.


    And the reason why Apple develop their own mapping service was because at the time Google was not supplying iOS Google Map users with the same features that were found on their Android version. Apple was concern that if Google were to never develop Google Map on iOS so that was as good as Google Map on Android, they would lose device sales from mobile users that consider having a good mapping service as an essential feature on their mobile device.

    Of course this is not proof that Apple would be able to do the same with an Apple search engine, but Google knows that if there was anyone capable of stealing a significant amount of market share from them on iOS, that will hurt their bottom line, Apple would be that one.

    And consider that Chrome market share on iOS is less than 5%.


    Here's an anti-trust lawsuit filed last year in the US, against Google and Apple, claiming there was such an agreement. Of course none of the allegations been proven yet and even if they were, it still might not amount to any anti-trust violations. But it's interesting to read the case they have against Google and Apple.



    I haven't found evidence that Apple Maps is taking a significant amount of market share, as you said. Maybe you could post some articles with details. 

    Regarding Chrome, I'm not sure if it's market share in iOS less than 5%, since the article you posted is from 2016, and the stats are only from US government websites. If that's the case today, then Google is right to think that the defaults are important, so they pay Apple billions to make Google Search the default engine.  IMO, that could make sense. 
  • Reply 13 of 22
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,564member
    danvm said:

    I haven't found evidence that Apple Maps is taking a significant amount of market share, as you said. Maybe you could post some articles with details. 
    https://www.businessofapps.com/data/navigation-app-market/
    meterestnzwatto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 22
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,409member
    spheric said:
    danvm said:

    I haven't found evidence that Apple Maps is taking a significant amount of market share, as you said. Maybe you could post some articles with details. 
    https://www.businessofapps.com/data/navigation-app-market/
    Based in the link, Google Maps has 1.8B users per month vs 500M for Apple Maps.  I looks like Apple haven't take a significant amount of market share. Even Moovit (never heard of this service before) is ahead of Apple Maps.  But 500M monthly users is not that bad.
  • Reply 15 of 22
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    >Bing had been the default search engine on Apple products from 2013 to 2017, but Google took over from there. The revenue share deal with Apple eliminated Bing's ability to compete, even when Microsoft made drastic offers.<


    I don't know where they got that idea from. According to this ....



    Bing wasn't able to compete with Google even when they were the default search for Apple from 2013 to 2017.

    The way I look at it, the importance of the "default" position is now way over blown when it comes to market share. If the "default" was that as much of a factor with regards to gaining market share as some are saying, then MS Edge and Bing should have much more than low single digit market share because they are the defaults on about 70% of the World desktop computers. 



    The fact that users can now easily change their "defaults", being the original installed default is no longer as meaningful as it was when MS IE was the default browser on Windows computers (in the mid 90's and early 2000's) and changing the default wasn't always that easy (thanks to MS). 




    I still think defaults still important for Google, considering what they pay to Apple.  If not, they would pay nothing  to Apple and expect most customers to change to Google Search on their devices.  

    But if you read between the lines, Google revenue sharing deal with Apple, which includes Apple having Google as the default search on Safari, was really about discouraging Apple from developing their own search engine. Over 50% of Google search occurs on iOS. This is the reason why Google is willing to share a portion of their iOS search revenue with Apple. It's not about being the default but about their fear that Apple might develop their own search engine for iOS. Thus maybe taking away a significant portion of Google iOS search revenue. More than what Google is paying with their revenue sharing deal.  

    So long as there is no smoking gun that Google offered their revenue deal in exchange for Apple giving up any idea of developing their own search engine or that of Apple threatening to develop their own search engine unless Google pays them so much, there's not much of a case for anti-competition with the deal. There is no proof that Apple can develop a search engine that will compete with Google. Apple search could end up no better than MS Bing. But Google would rather not find out as Apple do have a much more loyal user base than MS.
    I don't think Google is worried about Apple developing a search engine,
    Apple won't make a Google search rival, says Eddy Cue (appleinsider.com)

    And I don't think Google would have issues with the "loyal" Apple user base.  If you noticed, Apple loyal users are more focused in hardware (Mac, iPad, Apple Watch, iPhone).  But software and services is a different story.  Most Apple users have Gmail accounts, and don't use iCloud accounts.  MS Office and Google Workspace usage in Apple devices is ahead compared to the Apple suite of apps, even though they are free.  And even mobile apps and TV services like Google Maps, Spotify, Netflix and Disney+ are more popular than Apple alternatives.  I don't think an Apple search engine will make any difference to Google.  

    Actually, Apple Map is taking a significant amount of market share on iOS, from Google Map. Even though Apple Map might be better with certain features of maps, Google overall is still the better map service. It's hard to find actual market share of Apple Map vs Google Map on iOS (with Apple secrecy policies) but just using napkin math, consensus seems to indicate that Apple Map have about 12% of the overall mapping service market share and it's only on iOS. Since iOS is only about 22% of the mobile OS market, then Apple Map is on about 45% - 50% of the iOS devices (That would also include users that uses both Apple Map and Google map). That is not an insignificant amount of loss revenue for Google with Google Map on iOS. And mainly due to Apple loyal user base choosing to use Apple Map.


    And the reason why Apple develop their own mapping service was because at the time Google was not supplying iOS Google Map users with the same features that were found on their Android version. Apple was concern that if Google were to never develop Google Map on iOS so that was as good as Google Map on Android, they would lose device sales from mobile users that consider having a good mapping service as an essential feature on their mobile device.

    Of course this is not proof that Apple would be able to do the same with an Apple search engine, but Google knows that if there was anyone capable of stealing a significant amount of market share from them on iOS, that will hurt their bottom line, Apple would be that one.

    And consider that Chrome market share on iOS is less than 5%.


    Here's an anti-trust lawsuit filed last year in the US, against Google and Apple, claiming there was such an agreement. Of course none of the allegations been proven yet and even if they were, it still might not amount to any anti-trust violations. But it's interesting to read the case they have against Google and Apple.



    I haven't found evidence that Apple Maps is taking a significant amount of market share, as you said. Maybe you could post some articles with details. 

    Regarding Chrome, I'm not sure if it's market share in iOS less than 5%, since the article you posted is from 2016, and the stats are only from US government websites. If that's the case today, then Google is right to think that the defaults are important, so they pay Apple billions to make Google Search the default engine.  IMO, that could make sense. 
    This guy his napkin math on a very large napkin. It seems Apple have never given any hard numbers in regards to how many iOS user uses Apple Map. The thing is that Apple Map comes installed on every iPhone, so there's no download data to use. One needs to come up with ways to extrapolate how many iOS owners actually use Apple Map. 

    https://www.justinobeirne.com/how-many-people-use-google-maps-compared-to-apple-maps

    https://www.nearmedia.co/apple-maps-momentum-google-threads-ai-needle-location-sharing/
  • Reply 16 of 22
    darren mccoydarren mccoy Posts: 86member
    How much?  $1? Still a hard no!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 22
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
    danvm said:
    spheric said:
    danvm said:

    I haven't found evidence that Apple Maps is taking a significant amount of market share, as you said. Maybe you could post some articles with details. 
    https://www.businessofapps.com/data/navigation-app-market/
    Based in the link, Google Maps has 1.8B users per month vs 500M for Apple Maps.  I looks like Apple haven't take a significant amount of market share. Even Moovit (never heard of this service before) is ahead of Apple Maps.  But 500M monthly users is not that bad.

    You are forgetting to apply the "napkin math". Apple Map is only on iOS. There's only about 1.4B iOS devices. If 500M owners of those devices are using Apple Map, Then about 38% of iOS users are using Apple Map. The consensus is that it is higher than that in the US, where iPhone is now over 50% of the market. And the US is a very profitable market for targeted ads. Which is how Google derive their revenue with their "free" Google Map app. Losing 38% of iOS map users to Apple Map is not insignificant. (Discounting that many might be using both map services.)    
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 18 of 22
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    davidw said:
    >Bing had been the default search engine on Apple products from 2013 to 2017, but Google took over from there. The revenue share deal with Apple eliminated Bing's ability to compete, even when Microsoft made drastic offers.<


    I don't know where they got that idea from. According to this ....



    Bing wasn't able to compete with Google even when they were the default search for Apple from 2013 to 2017.

    The way I look at it, the importance of the "default" position is now way over blown when it comes to market share. If the "default" was that as much of a factor with regards to gaining market share as some are saying, then MS Edge and Bing should have much more than low single digit market share because they are the defaults on about 70% of the World desktop computers. 



    The fact that users can now easily change their "defaults", being the original installed default is no longer as meaningful as it was when MS IE was the default browser on Windows computers (in the mid 90's and early 2000's) and changing the default wasn't always that easy (thanks to MS). 




    I still think defaults still important for Google, considering what they pay to Apple.  If not, they would pay nothing  to Apple and expect most customers to change to Google Search on their devices.  

    But if you read between the lines, Google revenue sharing deal with Apple, which includes Apple having Google as the default search on Safari, was really about discouraging Apple from developing their own search engine. Over 50% of Google search occurs on iOS. This is the reason why Google is willing to share a portion of their iOS search revenue with Apple. It's not about being the default but about their fear that Apple might develop their own search engine for iOS. Thus maybe taking away a significant portion of Google iOS search revenue. More than what Google is paying with their revenue sharing deal.  

    So long as there is no smoking gun that Google offered their revenue deal in exchange for Apple giving up any idea of developing their own search engine or that of Apple threatening to develop their own search engine unless Google pays them so much, there's not much of a case for anti-competition with the deal. There is no proof that Apple can develop a search engine that will compete with Google. Apple search could end up no better than MS Bing. But Google would rather not find out as Apple do have a much more loyal user base than MS.
    I don't think Google is worried about Apple developing a search engine,
    Apple won't make a Google search rival, says Eddy Cue (appleinsider.com)

    And I don't think Google would have issues with the "loyal" Apple user base.  If you noticed, Apple loyal users are more focused in hardware (Mac, iPad, Apple Watch, iPhone).  But software and services is a different story.  Most Apple users have Gmail accounts, and don't use iCloud accounts.  MS Office and Google Workspace usage in Apple devices is ahead compared to the Apple suite of apps, even though they are free.  And even mobile apps and TV services like Google Maps, Spotify, Netflix and Disney+ are more popular than Apple alternatives.  I don't think an Apple search engine will make any difference to Google.  

    Actually, Apple Map is taking a significant amount of market share on iOS, from Google Map. Even though Apple Map might be better with certain features of maps, Google overall is still the better map service. It's hard to find actual market share of Apple Map vs Google Map on iOS (with Apple secrecy policies) but just using napkin math, consensus seems to indicate that Apple Map have about 12% of the overall mapping service market share and it's only on iOS. Since iOS is only about 22% of the mobile OS market, then Apple Map is on about 45% - 50% of the iOS devices (That would also include users that uses both Apple Map and Google map). That is not an insignificant amount of loss revenue for Google with Google Map on iOS. And mainly due to Apple loyal user base choosing to use Apple Map.


    And the reason why Apple develop their own mapping service was because at the time Google was not supplying iOS Google Map users with the same features that were found on their Android version. Apple was concern that if Google were to never develop Google Map on iOS so that was as good as Google Map on Android, they would lose device sales from mobile users that consider having a good mapping service as an essential feature on their mobile device.

    Of course this is not proof that Apple would be able to do the same with an Apple search engine, but Google knows that if there was anyone capable of stealing a significant amount of market share from them on iOS, that will hurt their bottom line, Apple would be that one.

    And consider that Chrome market share on iOS is less than 5%.


    Here's an anti-trust lawsuit filed last year in the US, against Google and Apple, claiming there was such an agreement. Of course none of the allegations been proven yet and even if they were, it still might not amount to any anti-trust violations. But it's interesting to read the case they have against Google and Apple.



    I haven't found evidence that Apple Maps is taking a significant amount of market share, as you said. Maybe you could post some articles with details. 

    Regarding Chrome, I'm not sure if it's market share in iOS less than 5%, since the article you posted is from 2016, and the stats are only from US government websites. If that's the case today, then Google is right to think that the defaults are important, so they pay Apple billions to make Google Search the default engine.  IMO, that could make sense. 

    Once again we need to use our "napkin math". According to this. Android have 70.8% of the World Mobile OS market share and iOS have 28.5%.


    Now if we apply this. Chrome have 64.7% of the mobile browser market and Safari have 25%. But Samsung have 4.3%. Add up Chrome and Samsung and that accounts for 69% of Android mobile browser market share. That leaves only about 2% of Google Chrome market share for iOS. And low and behold, Apple Safari 25% mobile browser marker share is about 3% short of iOS 28.5% mobile OS market share.  (The math works if one includes that many might be using both Safari and Chrome on iOS.)



    watto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 22
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,376member
    Meh. So you have Microsoft trying to slough off it dead wood by selling it to Apple. Apple says, “Um, thanks, but no thanks.” End of story.
    edited September 2023 thtwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 22
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,409member
    davidw said:
    danvm said:
    spheric said:
    danvm said:

    I haven't found evidence that Apple Maps is taking a significant amount of market share, as you said. Maybe you could post some articles with details. 
    https://www.businessofapps.com/data/navigation-app-market/
    Based in the link, Google Maps has 1.8B users per month vs 500M for Apple Maps.  I looks like Apple haven't take a significant amount of market share. Even Moovit (never heard of this service before) is ahead of Apple Maps.  But 500M monthly users is not that bad.

    You are forgetting to apply the "napkin math". Apple Map is only on iOS. There's only about 1.4B iOS devices. If 500M owners of those devices are using Apple Map, Then about 38% of iOS users are using Apple Map. The consensus is that it is higher than that in the US, where iPhone is now over 50% of the market. And the US is a very profitable market for targeted ads. Which is how Google derive their revenue with their "free" Google Map app. Losing 38% of iOS map users to Apple Map is not insignificant. (Discounting that many might be using both map services.)    
    My point about Google Maps and Apple Maps was about loyalty and not profits.  Looks like most of iOS users prefer Google Maps over Apple Maps.  There is no guarantee that Apple loyal users will use an Apple Search just because it's from Apple.  
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