Apple's flavor of RCS won't support Google's end-to-end encryption extension

Posted:
in iOS edited November 2023

Apple wants no part of Google's addition of end to-end encryption to RCS, and the iPhone maker will instead work with the standards body to mandate a universal version instead.

Privacy. That's iPhone.
Privacy. That's iPhone.



Apple surprised everyone on Thursday with a brief announcement that RCS would be supported by its products in 2024. However, there's more to the story as it isn't quite the same RCS Google Messages users have come to know.

According to a report from TechRadar, Apple won't adopt proprietary extensions like the one made by Google that adds end-to-end encryption to RCS. Instead, Apple intends to work with the GSMA to add encryption to the RCS Universal Profile.

Universal Profile versus Google's extension



The Universal Profile for RCS is a widely adopted standard used across multiple messaging apps and carriers. Google added end-to-end encryption to RCS for users that communicate exclusively through the Google Messages app.

Apple likely didn't want to elevate Google's proprietary version of RCS and exclude other Universal Profile users. Besides, if Apple is adopting RCS to prevent antitrust litigation, it isn't going to choose yet another silo that could implicate the company.

The obvious path forward is the one Apple is taking. By working with the GSMA and getting the Universal Profile to support end-to-end encryption, Apple ensures the widest reach of a safe and secure messaging platform rather than limiting it to Google Messages users.

Group chats with iMessage and RCS users will benefit most from Apple's move. High-quality images and video can be shared, but proprietary iMessage features like dropping stickers onto a chat bubble or reactions likely won't be interoperable.

Apple said that RCS support would arrive later in 2024. This likely means it will arrive as a part of iOS 18 and the other fall releases.

There is no known timeline for how long it might be before the Universal Profile gets end-to-end encryption.

Read on AppleInsider

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 61
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Alex1NmacseekerronntomkarlStrangeDayswilliamlondonJaiOh81jony0
  • Reply 2 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Google cared because they wanted to offer private and secure messaging for the not-Apple community and no one else was willing to take on the effort and expense. Now that Google figured out how to offer it all over the world, and developed the structure and support, the carriers want in too. Nothing prevented it before except for those carriers doing what they could to maintain control over it to the detriment of consumers.  
    muthuk_vanalingamjony0
  • Reply 3 of 61
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,728member
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Marketing? So that they look like the hero fighting against big bad Apple and winning. GG also mentioned in the other thread that carriers might be turning to them for the server requirements of E2EE, so that'd be worth a fair bit.
    edited November 2023 JaiOh81
  • Reply 4 of 61
    auxio said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Marketing? So that they look like the hero fighting against big bad Apple and winning. GG also mentioned in the other thread that carriers might be turning to them for the server requirements of E2EE, so that'd be worth a fair bit.
    The "server requirements of E2EE" are basically to route messages. If the devices sending and receiving aren't handling all the encryption/decryption themselves, it's not E2EE.
    Alex1Nwilliamlondonsphericjony0
  • Reply 5 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    auxio said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Marketing? So that they look like the hero fighting against big bad Apple and winning. GG also mentioned in the other thread that carriers might be turning to them for the server requirements of E2EE, so that'd be worth a fair bit.
    The "server requirements of E2EE" are basically to route messages. If the devices sending and receiving aren't handling all the encryption/decryption themselves, it's not E2EE.
    You're right. That makes it a good thing it's exactly what Google Messages is doing, and thus truly E2EE.
  • Reply 6 of 61
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,728member
    auxio said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Marketing? So that they look like the hero fighting against big bad Apple and winning. GG also mentioned in the other thread that carriers might be turning to them for the server requirements of E2EE, so that'd be worth a fair bit.
    The "server requirements of E2EE" are basically to route messages. If the devices sending and receiving aren't handling all the encryption/decryption themselves, it's not E2EE.
    So I guess all devices are online and available to receive a message at all times? No? Then you need a server to store those encrypted messages, images, videos, etc until the device is available. Maybe even know how to route them to multiple recipients and on different carriers. Oh, and look, Google has a solution for you.
    edited November 2023 Alex1N
  • Reply 7 of 61
    auxio said:
    auxio said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Marketing? So that they look like the hero fighting against big bad Apple and winning. GG also mentioned in the other thread that carriers might be turning to them for the server requirements of E2EE, so that'd be worth a fair bit.
    The "server requirements of E2EE" are basically to route messages. If the devices sending and receiving aren't handling all the encryption/decryption themselves, it's not E2EE.
    So I guess all devices are online and available to receive a message at all times? No? Then you need a server to store those encrypted messages, images, videos, etc until the device is available. Maybe even know how to route them to multiple recipients and on different carriers. Oh, and look, Google has a solution for you.
    That's all part of routing messages. 
  • Reply 8 of 61
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,306member
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Oh, let me clarify that for you. Google wants to a) collect data from messages, and b) push rich advertising into messages, which of course they would benefit from.

    I didn’t make this up — it’s been referred to in previous articles talking about Google’s version of RCS. Apple would never allow crap like that, so Google was never going to get Apple to adopt their version of RCS.

    I am actually starting to feel bad for Android users, because if Google gets its way their experience in messaging is about to get a lot crappier.
    Alex_VronnStrangeDayswilliamlondonJaiOh81Alex1Njony0
  • Reply 9 of 61
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,728member
    auxio said:
    auxio said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Marketing? So that they look like the hero fighting against big bad Apple and winning. GG also mentioned in the other thread that carriers might be turning to them for the server requirements of E2EE, so that'd be worth a fair bit.
    The "server requirements of E2EE" are basically to route messages. If the devices sending and receiving aren't handling all the encryption/decryption themselves, it's not E2EE.
    So I guess all devices are online and available to receive a message at all times? No? Then you need a server to store those encrypted messages, images, videos, etc until the device is available. Maybe even know how to route them to multiple recipients and on different carriers. Oh, and look, Google has a solution for you.
    That's all part of routing messages. 
    And speaking the RCS protocol? I suppose carriers already have that all working perfectly on their existing servers? I'm surprised they haven't rolled out all these new features to customers if they already had all this infrastructure in place (sarcasm).
    ronnwilliamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 10 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    chasm said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Oh, let me clarify that for you. Google wants to a) collect data from messages, and b) push rich advertising into messages, which of course they would benefit from.

    I didn’t make this up — it’s been referred to in previous articles talking about Google’s version of RCS. Apple would never allow crap like that, so Google was never going to get Apple to adopt their version of RCS.

    I am actually starting to feel bad for Android users, because if Google gets its way their experience in messaging is about to get a lot crappier.
    Google cannot collect user data from Google Messages RCS. End of story. So yeah, you made that part up.

    Can RCS be used for delivering rich media which could include advertising? Yup, but that's not a Google exclusive.
    edited November 2023 spheric
  • Reply 11 of 61
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
    gatorguy said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Google cared because they wanted to offer private and secure messaging for the not-Apple community and no one else was willing to take on the effort and expense. Now that Google figured out how to offer it all over the world, and developed the structure and support, the carriers want in too. Nothing prevented it before except for those carriers doing what they could to maintain control over it to the detriment of consumers.  

    That is not the reason at all and not even close. The not-Apple community have plenty of choices of messaging services that are secure and private with E2EE. And many of them have more features than Google RCS, are free to use and works with-in the Apple community. Google is not offering anything to the not-Apple community, that are not already available to them, for years now.

    What Google wants is for Android users to use Google Messages as their goto messaging service. Right now, only Google Messages offer RCS with E2EE using Google version of RCS. Google have not allow any other Android  messaging service, except Samsung through a special deal, to have E2EE using Google version of RCS. That the E2EE protocol is not included in Open Source Android because Google version of RCS is not a standard with-in the telecommunication community. RCS is a standard and the telecommunication community have not yet standardized E2EE. The only way for the telecommunication community to offer E2EE with RCS is to use Google servers to host their RCS messages. And only Google Messages is capable of E2EE with RCS. Which would mean that any telecommunication company that wants to offer RCS with E2EE, must use Google Messages as the default client messaging app on all Android phones. Even their own messaging app would not have E2EE and Google Messages will still handle SMS. 

    If Google was the least bit concern about the privacy and security of the not-Apple community messaging services, they would allow all Android messaging services to offer Google RCS with E2EE. But Google don't want Android messaging services like WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Signal, Telegram others to be able offer Google RCS with E2EE because this would mean Android users could use any Android messaging service to open Google RCS E2EE messages that their carrier has adopted. Google only wants Google Messages to have E2EE with RCS and that's the way it is now.

    Even with as many telecom companies that have adopted Google version of RCS, SMS is still the telecom standard. And even now, with all telecoms that have adopted Google RCS, more messages are sent by SMS that RCS. This because SMS is a true standard that is on every mobile phone. Doctors sending a reminder to patients about an appointment do not have to worry about which messaging service to use, in order for their patients to receive the reminder. Send it SMS and they will receive it with the messaging app that comes preinstalled with every mobile phone connected to a carrier network. Even an iPhone. No need to use any other messaging app. Walgreens don't need to learn how to send text messages with all the popular messaging services, in order to send a simple text message that a prescription is ready to be picked up.

    SMS is siill a big money maker for the telecoms. SMS is still being vastly used by businesses to reach as many mobile phone owners as possible with advertisiing or simple messages. Most don't need any more what SMS offers. SMS will be the standard for many more years because the telecoms don't want to lose the revenue SMS stills brings in, because to Google wants to offer RCS to everyone, for free.    
    12StrangersAlex_VdewmeStrangeDaysgregoriusmmike1williamlondonsphericAlex1N
  • Reply 12 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    davidw said:
    gatorguy said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Google cared because they wanted to offer private and secure messaging for the not-Apple community and no one else was willing to take on the effort and expense. Now that Google figured out how to offer it all over the world, and developed the structure and support, the carriers want in too. Nothing prevented it before except for those carriers doing what they could to maintain control over it to the detriment of consumers.  
      
    If Google was the least bit concern about the privacy and security of the not-Apple community messaging services, they would allow all Android messaging services to offer Google RCS with E2EE. But Google don't want Android messaging services like WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Signal, Telegram others to be able offer Google RCS with E2EE because this would mean Android users could use any Android messaging service to open Google RCS E2EE messages that their carrier has adopted. Google only wants Google Messages to have E2EE with RCS and that's the way it is now.
    Why would Google want to pay for securing WhatsApp or Facebook messages, and supply the servers and infrastructure to do so? I'm sure it's expensive enough to give it to Google and Samsung Message users for free. Google doesn't want to do this forever,, and as a member of the GSMA standards group have tried to push E2EE as a part of the RCS standard. What's one reason they're fully supporting and integrating the proposed MessageLayerSecurity standard, while still working with GSMA to integrate E2EE into the RCS standard. MLS brings cross-platform and cross-app E2EE security. and won't require Google maintain servers to do what the carriers would not.

    If GSMA continues to drag their heels as they have for years, Google has covered their bases by already supporting MLS in addition to their own flavor of E2EE RCS. 
    edited November 2023
  • Reply 13 of 61
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,728member
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Oh, let me clarify that for you. Google wants to a) collect data from messages, and b) push rich advertising into messages, which of course they would benefit from.

    I didn’t make this up — it’s been referred to in previous articles talking about Google’s version of RCS. Apple would never allow crap like that, so Google was never going to get Apple to adopt their version of RCS.

    I am actually starting to feel bad for Android users, because if Google gets its way their experience in messaging is about to get a lot crappier.
    Google cannot collect user data from Google Messages RCS. End of story. So yeah, you made that part up.
    They know who is messaging who, which is still worth something since it builds knowledge of connections between people.
    12StrangersAlex_VronnwilliamlondonsphericAlex1NMplsP
  • Reply 14 of 61
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Oh, let me clarify that for you. Google wants to a) collect data from messages, and b) push rich advertising into messages, which of course they would benefit from.

    I didn’t make this up — it’s been referred to in previous articles talking about Google’s version of RCS. Apple would never allow crap like that, so Google was never going to get Apple to adopt their version of RCS.

    I am actually starting to feel bad for Android users, because if Google gets its way their experience in messaging is about to get a lot crappier.
    Google cannot collect user data from Google Messages RCS. End of story. So yeah, you made that part up.

    Can RCS be used for delivering rich media which could include advertising? Yup, but that's not a Google exclusive.

    You're the one making things up. We went through this once before and you are still so blindly loyal to Google that you don't want to see what is plainly clear for everyone else.

    Google E2EE with their version of RCS, can only exist if both the sender and receiver are using Google Messages. All Google Messages uses Google servers and this is what allows Google version of RCS to have E2EE. Much like how all iMessage users are all using Apple servers and WhatsApp users are all using WhatsApp servers. If either the sender or receiver are not using Google Messages, the message is no longer E2EE. Even Google Messages will default to SMS, so the receiver can still get the text message. And this will most likely happen in a group chat where if one of the person in the chat is not using Google Messages, the whole chat is no longer E2EE for anyone in it. So to say that Google can not collect users data from Google Messages is making things up. You can't possibly believe that Google can not collect users data from unencrypted messages, that they are hosting on their own servers.   

    This is why when Apple adopts RCS, there will still be no E2EE between iMessage and Google Messager. They exist on two different companies servers and uses different protocol. Google RCS E2EE is not a standard. And neither is Apple iMessage E2EE. However, when Apple adopts RCS, both iMessage users and Google Messages user will be able to text each other using the standard RCS. Much like how they can text each other using SMS now. And both Apple and Google can collect users data. But it's mainly Google collecting users data that is the concern for most. And you can bet that if the telecoms adopts a standard E2EE protocol, Google will not be all too happy, as once that happens as Android users no longer be locked into using Google Messages to receive RCS messages that are E2EE. Once E2EE protocol is a standard, it will be avialable for every messaging service to use. Which is what Apple is waiting for.  


    edited November 2023 12StrangersAlex_VmacseekerronnStrangeDayswilliamlondonanonymousesphericAlex1N
  • Reply 15 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    davidw said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Oh, let me clarify that for you. Google wants to a) collect data from messages, and b) push rich advertising into messages, which of course they would benefit from.

    I didn’t make this up — it’s been referred to in previous articles talking about Google’s version of RCS. Apple would never allow crap like that, so Google was never going to get Apple to adopt their version of RCS.

    I am actually starting to feel bad for Android users, because if Google gets its way their experience in messaging is about to get a lot crappier.
    Google cannot collect user data from Google Messages RCS. End of story. So yeah, you made that part up.

    Can RCS be used for delivering rich media which could include advertising? Yup, but that's not a Google exclusive.

    You're the one making things up. We went through this once before and you are still so blindly loyal to Google that you don't want to see what is plainly clear for everyone else.

    Google E2EE with their version of RCS, can only exist if both the sender and receiver are using Google Messages. All Google Messages uses Google servers and this is what allows Google version of RCS to have E2EE. Much like how all iMessage users are all using Apple servers and WhatsApp users are all using WhatsApp servers. If either the sender or receiver are not using Google Messages, the message is no longer E2EE. Even Google Messages will default to SMS, so the receiver can still get the text message. And this will most likely happen in a group chat where if one of the person in the chat is not using Google Messages, the whole chat is no longer E2EE for anyone in it. So to say that Google can not collect users data from Google Messages is making things up. You can't possibly believe that Google can not collect users data from unencrypted messages, that they are hosting on their own servers.   

    This is why when Apple adopts RCS, there will still be no E2EE between iMessage and Google Messager. They exist on two different companies servers and uses different protocol. Google RCS E2EE is not a standard. And neither is Apple iMessage E2EE. However, when Apple adopts RCS, both iMessage users and Google Messages user will be able to text each other using the standard RCS. Much like how they can text each other using SMS now. And both Apple and Google can collect users data. But it's mainly Google collecting users data that is the concern for most. And you can bet that if the telecoms adopts a standard E2EE protocol, Google will not be all too happy, as once that happens as Android users no longer be locked into using Google Messages to receive RCS messages that are E2EE. Once E2EE protocol is a standard, it will be avialable for every messaging service to use. Which is what Apple is waiting for.  


    To repeat. Google cannot access user data or message contents in a Google RCS chat.  A fact the first time I said it. 

    You are confusing things with a non-RCS chat, meaning some participants either cannot or choose not to take advantage of Google RCS, which is end-to-end encrypted by default. 

    If Google's aim was to harvest user data from messages it would be more effective had they not set E2EE as default, or better yet just stuck with SMS/MMS which didn't cost them anything. :) And if they were going to go all-in with RCS at least make encryption opt-in if the intent was eavesdropping and data-mining. Kinda hard to collect what you can't see. 

    edited November 2023
  • Reply 16 of 61
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
    gatorguy said:
    davidw said:
    gatorguy said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    Google cared because they wanted to offer private and secure messaging for the not-Apple community and no one else was willing to take on the effort and expense. Now that Google figured out how to offer it all over the world, and developed the structure and support, the carriers want in too. Nothing prevented it before except for those carriers doing what they could to maintain control over it to the detriment of consumers.  
      
    If Google was the least bit concern about the privacy and security of the not-Apple community messaging services, they would allow all Android messaging services to offer Google RCS with E2EE. But Google don't want Android messaging services like WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Signal, Telegram others to be able offer Google RCS with E2EE because this would mean Android users could use any Android messaging service to open Google RCS E2EE messages that their carrier has adopted. Google only wants Google Messages to have E2EE with RCS and that's the way it is now.
    Why would Google want to pay for securing WhatsApp or Facebook messages, and supply the servers and infrastructure to do so? I'm sure it's expensive enough to give it to Google and Samsung Message users for free. Google doesn't want to do this forever,, and as a member of the GSMA standards group have tried to push E2EE as a part of the RCS standard. What's one reason they're fully supporting and integrating the proposed MessageLayerSecurity standard, while still working with GSMA to integrate E2EE into the RCS standard. MLS brings cross-platform and cross-app E2EE security. and won't require Google maintain servers to do what the carriers would not.

    If GSMA continues to drag their heels as they have for years, Google has covered their bases by already supporting MLS in addition to their own flavor of E2EE RCS. 

    Why wouldn't they (want to pay for the cost of other messaging service to adopt E2EE with RCS). Google is paying most of the cost for the telecoms (that are dragging their feet), to easily adopt RCS, by hosting their RCS messaging on Googles servers. You don't think it's costing Google anything to do this? So even you must admit that Google wants Android users to use Google Messages and this is their main goal. Not their concern about Android users privacy or security. Which they can have by using other messaging services. The more telecom companies that adopts RCS, the more Android phones will come with Google Messages as the default messaging service, if the telecoms wants to offer Google RCS with E2EE with their service.
    ronnStrangeDayswilliamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 17 of 61
    Alex_VAlex_V Posts: 218member
    The more I use messaging apps, the more I appreciate the genius of Apple’s simple, useful, elegant, Messages app. 
    tomkarlmike1williamlondon12Strangers9secondkox2jimh2jony0
  • Reply 18 of 61
    Just use Signal
    williamlondon
  • Reply 19 of 61
    Just use whatever you preferred, period….
    williamlondonAlex1N
  • Reply 20 of 61
    Anilu_777 said:
    I still wonder why Google even cares about this and then why it’s pushing so hard. I don’t trust Google. 
    I don’t trust Google nor Apple. Both are evil. 
    williamlondon
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