People are still gullible enough to buy this "I'm fighting for the little guy, against big baddie Apple, even if I lose everything, I'm doing it for virtue and justice!" horse-shit?
Yep, apparently people are, even on this very forum. Stunning how some of you are so easily propagandized.
If Masimo spends $100 million and more, but gets nothing for it, that changes the trolling calculus entirely.
Even IF Masimo prevails, this case changes the calculus for any smaller company that wants to sue Apple, even if they have a legitimate claim. The decision is now guided by, "Do we have $100 million and years to fight this?" Very few smaller companies can answer affirmatively to that question.
The problem with behemoths like Apple is they know few can afford to defend their rights in court so they exploit that to their advantage constantly. Apple is a bully, just face it. Pretty much always has been, even (or especially) under Jobs. Microsoft and Google are still worse though.
Apple has no choice. They are constantly targeted by patent trolls just because they have so much money. Apple’s only option is to draw out each fight as long as they can, and make litigation as expensive as possible to give patent trolls second thoughts about contesting a patent.
People are still gullible enough to buy this "I'm fighting for the little guy, against big baddie Apple, even if I lose everything, I'm doing it for virtue and justice!" horse-shit?
Yep, apparently people are, even on this very forum. Stunning how some of you are so easily propagandized.
Masimo aren't "the little guy". They're a $6 BILLION company. (They briefly reached about 15 billion during Covid.) They've been building pulse oximetry equipment for health care for 25 years.
This is NOT some patent troll going after Apple for easy money. This lawsuit is not easy money — it has already cost them $100 million, and it's unclear whether they will win.
But these guys are going after Apple because they were there first, they've been doing it — and doing it well — for a LONG time.
Most of this articles seems to be about the money Masimo makes out of patent settlements. Is Masimo a serious company or is it a patent troll that keeps up a charade of selling medical products.
To research that I checked Amazon.
Their Masimo MightySat Fingertip Pulse Oximeter currently sells for $269.99. It has a 4.5 star rating and has sold a mere 50+ in the past month. That's not much business for a company that's spending $100 million on lawyers. They have no business to save worth speaking of.
A similar looking Innovo Deluxe Fingertip Pulse Oximeter has a slightly better 4.7 star rating, sells for $34.99 and has sold 5K+ in the past month. Indeed, Amazon has page after page filled with pulse oximeters selling for between $25 and $45. Masimo's is such a far outliner I could not find another even close to its price.
On point 1, you have to wonder if Masimo's dismal sales of that particular item are due to Apple's watch doing the same thing or wether they just didn't market it properly/make a good product, etc.
One point 2, cheap sells more than expensive. Not rocket. science.
but the bottom line. in all of this, whether Masimo makes their big money on patent royalties or not, they have valid, hard-earned patents and deserve to get paid for licensing. Just because they MAY not make. a huge business out of. it does not justify others stealing their IP without licensing and gong forward. If Apple did indeed violate these patents - and it sure looks that way, they need to pay up, license the patent properly and let the owner enjoy the fruit of their labors. It doesn't matter if it's Google, Microsoft, Al Queada, Apple, or the pope doing this. Patents exist for a reason and they should be honored and defended.
But Apple have already gotten over a dozen of Masimo patents invalidated. Ask yourself this, When Masimo was the big bully and holding their patents over smaller companies, how much did they make licensing patents that they shouldn't have been awarded? The smaller companies must pay Masimo the licensing fee because they don't have the resources to fight back to invalidate the patents, but Apple do. If Masimo is making money licensing patents that they know they shouldn't have been awarded, who's doing the stealing?
People are still gullible enough to buy this "I'm fighting for the little guy, against big baddie Apple, even if I lose everything, I'm doing it for virtue and justice!" horse-shit?
Yep, apparently people are, even on this very forum. Stunning how some of you are so easily propagandized.
Masimo aren't "the little guy". They're a $6 BILLION company. (They briefly reached about 15 billion during Covid.) They've been building pulse oximetry equipment for health care for 25 years.
This is NOT some patent troll going after Apple for easy money. This lawsuit is not easy money — it has already cost them $100 million, and it's unclear whether they will win.
But these guys are going after Apple because they were there first, they've been doing it — and doing it well — for a LONG time, and they have to clarify whether Apple is infringing, because even if they lose, if they don't defend their own patents, they WILL be invalidated for all future court cases, because that's what happens if you let them languish and don't defend them.
You are thinking about trademarks, not patents. If a company doesn't defend its trademarks, like the Apple logo, Coca-Cola bottles, MS Windows (both the word and logo), they supposedly are at risk of them.
Patents are valid until they expire. If a company decides to use them to sue another company, the patents could be invalidated. "Submarine" patents have been used to sure all the time, where some product, process or method is left to mature over 5 to 10 years, and the patent holders use that patent to sue everyone who are using that product, process or method.
People are still gullible enough to buy this "I'm fighting for the little guy, against big baddie Apple, even if I lose everything, I'm doing it for virtue and justice!" horse-shit?
Yep, apparently people are, even on this very forum. Stunning how some of you are so easily propagandized.
Masimo aren't "the little guy". They're a $6 BILLION company. (They briefly reached about 15 billion during Covid.) They've been building pulse oximetry equipment for health care for 25 years.
This is NOT some patent troll going after Apple for easy money. This lawsuit is not easy money — it has already cost them $100 million, and it's unclear whether they will win.
But these guys are going after Apple because they were there first, they've been doing it — and doing it well — for a LONG time, and they have to clarify whether Apple is infringing, because even if they lose, if they don't defend their own patents, they WILL be invalidated for all future court cases, because that's what happens if you let them languish and don't defend them.
You are thinking about trademarks, not patents. If a company doesn't defend its trademarks, like the Apple logo, Coca-Cola bottles, MS Windows (both the word and logo), they supposedly are at risk of them.
Patents are valid until they expire. If a company decides to use them to sue another company, the patents could be invalidated. "Submarine" patents have been used to sure all the time, where some product, process or method is left to mature over 5 to 10 years, and the patent holders use that patent to sue everyone who are using that product, process or method.
Thank you; I was wrong on that. Appreciate the correction.
Most of this articles seems to be about the money Masimo makes out of patent settlements. Is Masimo a serious company or is it a patent troll that keeps up a charade of selling medical products.
To research that I checked Amazon.
Their Masimo MightySat Fingertip Pulse Oximeter currently sells for $269.99. It has a 4.5 star rating and has sold a mere 50+ in the past month. That's not much business for a company that's spending $100 million on lawyers. They have no business to save worth speaking of.
A similar looking Innovo Deluxe Fingertip Pulse Oximeter has a slightly better 4.7 star rating, sells for $34.99 and has sold 5K+ in the past month. Indeed, Amazon has page after page filled with pulse oximeters selling for between $25 and $45. Masimo's is such a far outliner I could not find another even close to its price.
On point 1, you have to wonder if Masimo's dismal sales of that particular item are due to Apple's watch doing the same thing or wether they just didn't market it properly/make a good product, etc.
One point 2, cheap sells more than expensive. Not rocket. science.
but the bottom line. in all of this, whether Masimo makes their big money on patent royalties or not, they have valid, hard-earned patents and deserve to get paid for licensing. Just because they MAY not make. a huge business out of. it does not justify others stealing their IP without licensing and gong forward. If Apple did indeed violate these patents - and it sure looks that way, they need to pay up, license the patent properly and let the owner enjoy the fruit of their labors. It doesn't matter if it's Google, Microsoft, Al Queada, Apple, or the pope doing this. Patents exist for a reason and they should be honored and defended.
But Apple have already gotten over a dozen of Masimo patents invalidated. Ask yourself this, When Masimo was the big bully and holding their patents over smaller companies, how much did they make licensing patents that they shouldn't have been awarded? The smaller companies must pay Masimo the licensing fee because they don't have the resources to fight back to invalidate the patents, but Apple do. If Masimo is making money licensing patents that they know they shouldn't have been awarded, who's doing the stealing?
It’s not bullying to defend your patented IP - regardless of how big or small the infringing company is.
The problem with behemoths like Apple is they know few can afford to defend their rights in court so they exploit that to their advantage constantly. Apple is a bully, just face it. Pretty much always has been, even (or especially) under Jobs. Microsoft and Google are still worse though.
Apple has no choice. They are constantly targeted by patent trolls just because they have so much money. Apple’s only option is to draw out each fight as long as they can, and make litigation as expensive as possible to give patent trolls second thoughts about contesting a patent.
Except mason doesn’t troll.
They have a legit business that rides on this. From products to licensed tech.
A troll does nothing except sue whenever someone does anything remotely close to what their patent covers.
In Masimos case, they are defending patents DIRECTLY infringed by Apple that harm their business materially.
It’s a legit fight. Apple needs to do the honorable thing and license the tech or go about glucose monitoring in a way that doesn’t infringe.
It doesn’t matter if you love Apple and hate Masimo or their business practices. It will all come down to what the law says. So far Apple has lost on every step here but they have gotten to a place where they can argue their case in a Federal court. You can play outraged armchair patent lawyer or wait for the case to be heard and judged on the merits as it relates to the law. Till then it is all empty speculation.
Having been a target of Masimo and knowing other targets, I can tell you they are bullies and have little regard for the consumer or patent rights. There are plenty of ways to measure sPO2 without getting near Masimo patents but they send threatening letters and lawsuits anyway. The Apple lawsuit is merely because Apple hired away Masimo employees who devised a new method for Apple.
Like it or don't, Apple Watches and similar devices save lives. By getting them off the market, Masimo has blood on their hands. Been reading about the patents lawsuit with Masimo v Garmin, Google, Fitbit, etc? Nope. That's how Masimo rolls.
It doesn’t matter if you love Apple and hate Masimo or their business practices. It will all come down to what the law says. So far Apple has lost on every step here but they have gotten to a place where they can argue their case in a Federal court. You can play outraged armchair patent lawyer or wait for the case to be heard and judged on the merits as it relates to the law. Till then it is all empty speculation.
Where are you getting your info from? Apple has not lost every step up to now. The actual patent trial was a mistrial (and seems to have been in Apple’s favor 6-1).
I’m interested is evidence that Apple is actually infringing whatever patents Massimo is claiming. This sort of O2 Sat technology has been around forever. The patent is not on O2 sat tech. It is on a specific “new” refinement of the tech. Has Massimo presented evidence showing actual infringement or are they just saying “Apple must be infringing to be able to do that” like many of these claims seem to be.
The problem with behemoths like Apple is they know few can afford to defend their rights in court so they exploit that to their advantage constantly. Apple is a bully, just face it. Pretty much always has been, even (or especially) under Jobs. Microsoft and Google are still worse though.
Apple has no choice. They are constantly targeted by patent trolls just because they have so much money. Apple’s only option is to draw out each fight as long as they can, and make litigation as expensive as possible to give patent trolls second thoughts about contesting a patent.
Except mason doesn’t troll.
They have a legit business that rides on this. From products to licensed tech.
A troll does nothing except sue whenever someone does anything remotely close to what their patent covers.
In Masimos case, they are defending patents DIRECTLY infringed by Apple that harm their business materially.
It’s a legit fight. Apple needs to do the honorable thing and license the tech or go about glucose monitoring in a way that doesn’t infringe.
Just because they have a legitimate business doesn’t mean the can’t be a troll. As discussed, this tech was solved decades ago.
Masimo is not a sham company selling sham products. Admittedly, they consumer products are pretty limited, but, as a hospital-based physician, I see their products ALL THE TIME in the hospital. Specifically, they make physiological monitors that are extensively used in ICUs, operating rooms and ERs. In the mid-90s, Masimo introduced software / algorithms that reduced error due to motion artifact or low flow states. It really revolutionized the use of pulse oximetry and allowed it to be used outside the OR and ICU settings (where patients are typically still) and into more ambulatory settings such as ERs, ambulances, clinics, etc.
I have no idea about the merits of this case, but Masimo is certainly not a patent troll. They did about $1.24 billion in revenues last year (about $125M in profits). Compared to Apple, they are certainly a "small" company.
The problem with behemoths like Apple is they know few can afford to defend their rights in court so they exploit that to their advantage constantly. Apple is a bully, just face it. Pretty much always has been, even (or especially) under Jobs. Microsoft and Google are still worse though.
Apple has no choice. They are constantly targeted by patent trolls just because they have so much money. Apple’s only option is to draw out each fight as long as they can, and make litigation as expensive as possible to give patent trolls second thoughts about contesting a patent.
Except mason doesn’t troll.
They have a legit business that rides on this. From products to licensed tech.
A troll does nothing except sue whenever someone does anything remotely close to what their patent covers.
In Masimos case, they are defending patents DIRECTLY infringed by Apple that harm their business materially.
It’s a legit fight. Apple needs to do the honorable thing and license the tech or go about glucose monitoring in a way that doesn’t infringe.
Just because they have a legitimate business doesn’t mean the can’t be a troll. As discussed, this tech was solved decades ago.
It obviously wasn’t solved decades ago or there wouldn’t be modern patents on it.
What was solved decades ago is the basic tech for this. That’s not the tech being leveraged. What’s being leveraged are patents on new updated tech that enhances or makes the basic tech much more useful.
Pulse oximeters from China can be purchased retail for $1.50 online and they work just fine.
That's one dollar and fifty cents, in case you think I missed a decimal point.
How much can royalties be worth?
The next time you're in the hospital for serious medical treatment, be sure to refuse all medical-grade equipment approved for clinical use and insist they only treat you with the cheapest equipment they can buy online from China. After all, "they work just fine," so why waste that money on your health? What's the point of all this expensive, medical-grade equipment when it's only your life potentially at stake? Accuracy, Shmaccuracy!
Masimo is not a sham company selling sham products. Admittedly, they consumer products are pretty limited, but, as a hospital-based physician, I see their products ALL THE TIME in the hospital. Specifically, they make physiological monitors that are extensively used in ICUs, operating rooms and ERs. In the mid-90s, Masimo introduced software / algorithms that reduced error due to motion artifact or low flow states. It really revolutionized the use of pulse oximetry and allowed it to be used outside the OR and ICU settings (where patients are typically still) and into more ambulatory settings such as ERs, ambulances, clinics, etc.
I have no idea about the merits of this case, but Masimo is certainly not a patent troll. They did about $1.24 billion in revenues last year (about $125M in profits). Compared to Apple, they are certainly a "small" company.
Nice to read the words of a thoughtful and informed post amidst the idiocy being posted here about "patent troll" and "this tech was invented decades ago," as if patents aren't issued for improvements and evolutions of existing tech. Like you, I'm not saying that Masimo deserves to prevail here--I don't have all the information I would need to make that determination--but when your entire business and over a billion in revenue annually rests primarily on the sale of your pulse oximetry equipment, you are hardly a "patent troll" for vigorously defending what you believe is your IP in the pulse oximetry space. In fact, if you don't vigorously defend it--If it can be shown that you were aware of possible infringement and did nothing about it--that seriously weakens your ability to bring a case in the future.
Comments
Yep, apparently people are, even on this very forum. Stunning how some of you are so easily propagandized.
Stuff like this is their bread and butter:
But Apple have already gotten over a dozen of Masimo patents invalidated. Ask yourself this, When Masimo was the big bully and holding their patents over smaller companies, how much did they make licensing patents that they shouldn't have been awarded? The smaller companies must pay Masimo the licensing fee because they don't have the resources to fight back to invalidate the patents, but Apple do. If Masimo is making money licensing patents that they know they shouldn't have been awarded, who's doing the stealing?
Patents are valid until they expire. If a company decides to use them to sue another company, the patents could be invalidated. "Submarine" patents have been used to sure all the time, where some product, process or method is left to mature over 5 to 10 years, and the patent holders use that patent to sue everyone who are using that product, process or method.
The rest of the post stands.
Like it or don't, Apple Watches and similar devices save lives. By getting them off the market, Masimo has blood on their hands. Been reading about the patents lawsuit with Masimo v Garmin, Google, Fitbit, etc? Nope. That's how Masimo rolls.
lost every step up to now. The actual patent trial was a mistrial (and seems to have been in Apple’s favor 6-1).
I have no idea about the merits of this case, but Masimo is certainly not a patent troll. They did about $1.24 billion in revenues last year (about $125M in profits). Compared to Apple, they are certainly a "small" company.
That's one dollar and fifty cents, in case you think I missed a decimal point.
How much can royalties be worth?
Nice to read the words of a thoughtful and informed post amidst the idiocy being posted here about "patent troll" and "this tech was invented decades ago," as if patents aren't issued for improvements and evolutions of existing tech. Like you, I'm not saying that Masimo deserves to prevail here--I don't have all the information I would need to make that determination--but when your entire business and over a billion in revenue annually rests primarily on the sale of your pulse oximetry equipment, you are hardly a "patent troll" for vigorously defending what you believe is your IP in the pulse oximetry space. In fact, if you don't vigorously defend it--If it can be shown that you were aware of possible infringement and did nothing about it--that seriously weakens your ability to bring a case in the future.