Apple insists to EU antitrust regulators that it runs five App Stores, not one

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in iOS

Apple's November challenge against the EU's Digital Markets Act says the European Commission got it wrong by saying there's only one App Store, when there's actually five.




The Digital Markets Act is the European Union's attempt to level the playing field and increase competition by reducing the dominance of major tech firms. With Apple in the crosshairs, the iPhone maker has taken multiple actions to try and reduce the impact the rules has against its business.

In the latest report about Apple's challenges, it appears that it has taken offense to the European Commission's treatment of Apple's digital marketplaces, and is treating them all as one single platform.

Apple filed its legal challenge in November, but details of the filing were not made public at the time. On January 8, some details of the legal challenge were revealed.

The Commission made "material factual errors," Apple claims in its European General Court plea, reports Reuters. These errors include a conclusion "that the applicant's five App Stores are a single core platform service."

Apple's five stores cover iPhones, iPad, Mac, Apple TV, and the Apple Watch, the argument states, with each servicing a particular platform and device.

Under the DMA, Apple would be required to allow third parties to open their own app marketplaces on Apple's hardware, a potential pain point to Apple's future financials. By insisting each App Store is separate, it would give Apple a greater chance to reduce the user counts for each and to have more of its storefront empire free of DMA intervention.

This is not the first time Apple has tried to divide and conquer to beat the DMA. In November, it attempted to tell the EU that it has three separate browsers named Safari, though it found more solid ground in declaring it ran five distinct operating systems.

Apple also complained about the Commission designating iMessage as a number-independent interpersonal communications service (NIICS), which led to an investigation as to whether iMessage should have to deal with DMA rules too.

The iPhone maker argues that the NIICS designation doesn't apply, since it doesn't charge fees for the service, nor does Apple monetize it through hardware sales, no marketing, and not through processing personal data.

Apple did get an initial reprieve from the DMA in September, arguing that iMessage wasn't big enough to be classified as a gatekeeper service. EU officials have since attempted to determine whether the rules do actually apply to the messaging platform.



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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 43
    These kinds of statements probably work in the US.

    I wonder what the EU's attitude is towards such lawyer-speak.
    muthuk_vanalingamgrandact73
  • Reply 2 of 43
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,281member
    Apple is correct in stating there are five stores because the software available in each store only works on a specific platform. This is like saying a company that owns a pharmacy, sporting goods store, hardware store, grocery store and electronics store is required to call all of them one store, maybe called PSHGE, instead of five different stores carrying different products. There are many companies that have multiple store fronts with different names that keep their stores separate. (don't ask me specifics, because I don't care to research this but take a company like Whirlpool, who makes all kinds of brands of household products, each having a store under the brand's name) 

    As for anything the EU does, it's time they quit trying to run another country's product line. I'm sorry but anything related to current computers and operating systems rarely is created in EU countries anymore. Sure, you can find a few high tech companies in the EU but not as many as before and nowhere near as many as in the USA.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 43
    badmonkbadmonk Posts: 1,326member
    I hope the EU is ready to track down all these little app stores for appropriate taxation.  They may regret their decisions in this regard.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 43
    Whatever Apple makes of it, it’s 5 different flavours of the same OSX (derivative) app software.

    williamlondonnubus
  • Reply 5 of 43
    rob53 said:
    Apple is correct in stating there are five stores because the software available in each store only works on a specific platform. This is like saying a company that owns a pharmacy, sporting goods store, hardware store, grocery store and electronics store is required to call all of them one store, maybe called PSHGE, instead of five different stores carrying different products. There are many companies that have multiple store fronts with different names that keep their stores separate. (don't ask me specifics, because I don't care to research this but take a company like Whirlpool, who makes all kinds of brands of household products, each having a store under the brand's name) 

    As for anything the EU does, it's time they quit trying to run another country's product line. I'm sorry but anything related to current computers and operating systems rarely is created in EU countries anymore. Sure, you can find a few high tech companies in the EU but not as many as before and nowhere near as many as in the USA.
    While I actually side with Apple on most of the claims of anticompetitive behavior, your analogy is wrong. It’s pretty much BS to say they are different stores. The more correct analogy would be to say they were like a GameStop. They sell games for X Box PlayStation and Nintendo…different platforms, but it’s still one marketplace. I think it also undermines their argument because many apps are universal. I can buy an app for my iPhone and it will magically appear on my iPad or Apple TV. They even advertise this on the app listings, saying what other devices they will work on. It’s all one big marketplace. 
    nubusgatorguyelijahggrandact73
  • Reply 6 of 43
    rob53 said:

    As for anything the EU does, it's time they quit trying to run another country's product line. I'm sorry but anything related to current computers and operating systems rarely is created in EU countries anymore. Sure, you can find a few high tech companies in the EU but not as many as before and nowhere near as many as in the USA.
    It's not where a product is created that is important here, it's simply whether or not a product is sold in the EU that matters to the EU regulators. Doesn't matter if the product is created in America, Japan, China, Vietnam, the EU, wherever... the number of high tech companies in Europe compared to America is completely irrelevant.
    nubuselijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 7 of 43
    nubusnubus Posts: 562member
    rob53 said:
    Apple is correct in stating there are five stores because the software available in each store only works on a specific platform. 
    We had the exact same problem when Apple in November told EU it had 3 different browsers all called Safari. https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/11/03/apple-told-eu-regulators-it-has-three-browsers-all-called-safari - that was pretty ugly, and here we go again. With Apple Arcade being "available across devices" and Apple telling how similar things are - and how apps now can be binary compatible across most platforms.

    Some in this forum seems to believe the Constitution reads "We the corporations". It doesn't.
    elijahgcroprgrandact73
  • Reply 8 of 43
    The cynical view is that this is simply a threat to Apple’s profits if they allow 3rd party apps direct to devices. 

    The actual threat / gain to customers is security. Due to the integrated nature of Apple’s ecosystem. Which is priceless. 

    Actually, there is a price you can calculate.  Losses thru scams. IT budgets. Longevity of hardware. 

    Look at the difference between macOS and iOS. Apple still maintains malware protection (silent) on macOS. And Malwarebytes is still a goid idea just for peace of mind. No such need on iOS, thanks to the security of a single store.  

    It's not a monopoly just because it's successful. Customers vote with their feet. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 43
    ctt_zh said:
    rob53 said:

    As for anything the EU does, it's time they quit trying to run another country's product line. I'm sorry but anything related to current computers and operating systems rarely is created in EU countries anymore. Sure, you can find a few high tech companies in the EU but not as many as before and nowhere near as many as in the USA.
    It's not where a product is created that is important here, it's simply whether or not a product is sold in the EU that matters to the EU regulators. Doesn't matter if the product is created in America, Japan, China, Vietnam, the EU, wherever... the number of high tech companies in Europe compared to America is completely irrelevant.
    It does matter where the product is created though. Why should someone literally on the other side of the planet have any say about what I do? They are trying to force their views upon us. Look, I think it’s fine that they want things a certain way. I’m cool with that, but they aren’t doing that. They are forcing a company that isn’t in their area of control to do something that they shouldn’t have to deal with. They should have done this 20 years ago if it meant that much to them. Same with the whole usb-c thing. “Trying to save landfills from e-waste.” Created a decades worth of e-waste from literally every country all around the planet. Good job at stopping waste, because usb-c will totally be around in a decade and it’s going to take that long to stop the lightning cables from being around. It’s stupid. You want to stop waste? This is where you stop it. Stopping the EU from doing stupid stuff. They got away with the ridiculous waste of usb-c, now you want them to run app stores? There will be many more power hungry server farms now. So, more e-waste, more power hungry server farms that use coal for power. Good job EU!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 43
    Great...5 App Stores...they all still each (except one) act in the same anti-competitive way that the EU is looking at.  Mac is the only platform that you are not forced to acquire apps from the Mac App Store and pay for them through Apple.  
  • Reply 11 of 43
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 3,676member
    If the EU persists in this, Apple could separate its App Store into two different App Stores:
    * one in the EU where only EU developers could upload code, and
    * one for the rest of the world where the rest of the world could sell there software.
    Nobody from the EU could sell apps in the worldwide store, and nobody from outside the EU could sell apps in the EU store.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 43
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,528member
    rob53 said:
    Apple is correct in stating there are five stores because the software available in each store only works on a specific platform. This is like saying a company that owns a pharmacy, sporting goods store, hardware store, grocery store and electronics store is required to call all of them one store, maybe called PSHGE, instead of five different stores carrying different products. 
    So a store like Walmart.
     They are a pharmacy, a sporting goods store, eye glass store, clothing store, and a grocery store. So they're not really one Walmart store then? 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 13 of 43
    ctt_zhctt_zh Posts: 83member
    ctt_zh said:
    rob53 said:

    As for anything the EU does, it's time they quit trying to run another country's product line. I'm sorry but anything related to current computers and operating systems rarely is created in EU countries anymore. Sure, you can find a few high tech companies in the EU but not as many as before and nowhere near as many as in the USA.
    It's not where a product is created that is important here, it's simply whether or not a product is sold in the EU that matters to the EU regulators. Doesn't matter if the product is created in America, Japan, China, Vietnam, the EU, wherever... the number of high tech companies in Europe compared to America is completely irrelevant.
    It does matter where the product is created though. Why should someone literally on the other side of the planet have any say about what I do? They are trying to force their views upon us. Look, I think it’s fine that they want things a certain way. I’m cool with that, but they aren’t doing that. They are forcing a company that isn’t in their area of control to do something that they shouldn’t have to deal with. They should have done this 20 years ago if it meant that much to them. Same with the whole usb-c thing. “Trying to save landfills from e-waste.” Created a decades worth of e-waste from literally every country all around the planet. Good job at stopping waste, because usb-c will totally be around in a decade and it’s going to take that long to stop the lightning cables from being around. It’s stupid. You want to stop waste? This is where you stop it. Stopping the EU from doing stupid stuff. They got away with the ridiculous waste of usb-c, now you want them to run app stores? There will be many more power hungry server farms now. So, more e-waste, more power hungry server farms that use coal for power. Good job EU!
    If the EU were to require Apple to allow other App Stores, this would obviously only affect folk in the EU and so wouldn't affect you in any way. If you are on the other side of the planet to the EU they don't have any say in what you do... 
    edited January 8
  • Reply 14 of 43
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,944member
    This looks very bad on Apple and is clearly a wriggle movement. Will it work?

    I don't know. Stranger things have happened and some group of legal experts at Apple obviously thought it was worth a try. 

    That said, to the non expert, it does seem a bit silly. What's to stop them from making 'stores' for every category of app?

    The games App Store 
    The sports App Store 
    The news App Store 
    The shopping App Store 
    ... 

    They all run 'iOS' of sorts. They are all tied to AppleIDs. They are all subject to the same policy decisions. They all probably run off the same back end processing tools run by the same engineers.

    To all intents and purposes it's the same 'App Store' with different branding.

    But technicalities are technicalities. 
    edited January 9 designrelijahggrandact73
  • Reply 15 of 43
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,281member
    gatorguy said:
    rob53 said:
    Apple is correct in stating there are five stores because the software available in each store only works on a specific platform. This is like saying a company that owns a pharmacy, sporting goods store, hardware store, grocery store and electronics store is required to call all of them one store, maybe called PSHGE, instead of five different stores carrying different products. 
    So a store like Walmart.
     They are a pharmacy, a sporting goods store, eye glass store, clothing store, and a grocery store. So they're not really one Walmart store then? 
    I don't believe Walmart sells one item that they have actually manufactured. They only sell products made by various companies. Apple created each operating system. Yes, they are now built around the same code (Xcode) with variations for each specific product. Contrary to @Avon B7's statement, iOS is not the base coding system for all the others, Xcode is. Apple also hosts Apple-created apps on all five Apple App Stores. Apple allows the hosting of non-Apple created apps on all their platforms. @gatorguy, I know you know all of this.

    As for the "European Union's attempt to level the playing field and increase competition by reducing the dominance of major tech firms" I find this just another attempt by a non-American company to force a successful American company to open their system for control by foreign country companies. I'm trying to think of one foreign country company that the USA forces the opening of their product so the US Government can access it. This is what the Digital Markets Act is all about and members of the EU simply refuse to acknowledge it. Apple makes one of the most secure and compatible computer operating system environments, something no EU company can match, so the only way to break into this environment is to force them to open it up. Once it's been opened up, it will no longer be secure. This is why Apple fights to stay closed, even fighting the US government, which I totally agree with. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 43
    What Apple is saying does make sense. You can't purchase an app in the Mac store and use it on your Apple Watch or your iPhone. Every one of those devices has its own unique OS. So it is true that the App Store isn't really monolithic. 
    thtchasmwatto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 43
    nubus said: We had the exact same problem when Apple in November told EU it had 3 different browsers all called Safari. https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/11/03/apple-told-eu-regulators-it-has-three-browsers-all-called-safari - that was pretty ugly, and here we go again. With Apple Arcade being "available across devices" and Apple telling how similar things are - and how apps now can be binary compatible across most platforms.
    Apple Arcade still requires unique versions of the app for each OS and type of hardware that it runs on. I play NBA2K all the time on Apple Arcade and that game is definitely not identical on each platform. I think Apple does have a valid point with this. 

    Think about AAA games that are available on Windows, Playstation, Xbox and Switch. 
    edited January 9 thtwatto_cobra
  • Reply 18 of 43
    RespiteRespite Posts: 111member
    What Apple is saying does make sense. You can't purchase an app in the Mac store and use it on your Apple Watch or your iPhone. Every one of those devices has its own unique OS. So it is true that the App Store isn't really monolithic. 
    So?  I can walk into GameStop and buy a PS5 game and a Xbox game that each don't work on the other console.  Doesn't mean I visited two stores.

    Hell, Apple gift cards work across all their stores, it's very clear that they're a network.  

    This is a silly and transparent attempt to worm out on a manufactured technicality.  This attempted avoidance of the issue does Apple no favours legally, just makes them look slimy.
    elijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 19 of 43

    caskey said:  The more correct analogy would be to say they were like a GameStop. They sell games for X Box PlayStation and Nintendo…different platforms, but it’s still one marketplace.
    It's not like GameStop. The Mac App Store only sells Mac versions of games. The iPhone App Store only sells iPhone versions of games. Etc. 

    And if you buy a Mac, Apple doesn't give you an iPhone/iPad/ATV/Watch along with it. You buy all those things separately. 
    edited January 9 watto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 43
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,528member
    rob53 said:
    gatorguy said:
    rob53 said:
    Apple is correct in stating there are five stores because the software available in each store only works on a specific platform. This is like saying a company that owns a pharmacy, sporting goods store, hardware store, grocery store and electronics store is required to call all of them one store, maybe called PSHGE, instead of five different stores carrying different products. 
    So a store like Walmart.
     They are a pharmacy, a sporting goods store, eye glass store, clothing store, and a grocery store. So they're not really one Walmart store then? 
    I don't believe Walmart sells one item that they have actually manufactured. They only sell products made by various companies. Apple created each operating system. 
    Apple doesn't create all the apps in the app store either, and yes Walmart has its own branded products that compete with 3rd party sellers, just as Apple does. They also create their own marketing and sales plans, inventory management software, and store designs and layout, and contract for certain products to be built by 3rd parties to their specifications.

    So like Walmart...

    -Walmart builds a store and sellers use its store shelves to sell their products with Walmart's permission, and with Walmart making a profit on every item sold. 
    -Apple builds a virtual store, and developers use its virtual shelves to sell their products with Apple's permission, and with Apple making a profit on every item sold. 

    The difference? Most of the Walmart store products, outside of the first-party ones, can be purchased at another big store, either virtual or physical, ones such as Target or Amazon.

    edited January 9 elijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
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