Apple says it can take pulse oximetry out of Apple Watch -- but shouldn't have to

Posted:
in Apple Watch

Apple is urging the Federal Court to stay the Apple Watch ban until all appellate proceedings are over, at the same time as insisting that there are ignored rules that could've halted the ban in the first place.

Apple Watch Series 9 on the left, and Apple Watch Ultra on the right, in front of a white background
Apple Watch Series 9 and Apple Watch Ultra



Monday's Federal Circuit filing from Masimo revealed that Apple had managed to convince U.S. Customs and Border Protection that it could import current-gen Apple Watch units to the United States without the allegedly patent-infringing blood oxygen features. In a new filing, Apple says it shouldn't be asked to go to those lengths at all.

In a January 15 filing with the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, Apple says it supports its motion to stay the International Trade Commission (ITC) ban on the Apple Watch until the end of the appeals process. The ITC has already filed its opposition to the proposed stay, which would extend the existing one on the ban for a longer period of time.

However, Apple's motion, as explained by IP-Fray, says that the Apple Watch maker is still suffering irreparable harm from the sales ban, despite Customs clearing versions without the problematic feature. Indeed, Apple goes on to insist that the ITC decision is one that could not stand, because ITC's rules aren't being applied properly.

The chief issue is that a U.S. import ban requires that the complainant commercialize the patented invention in the U.S. in some form, be it in an actual product or via licensing. Apple says that the product was being designed but wasn't readily available to purchase, meaning the patent wasn't properly commercialized.

Apple proposes that if this was an acceptable standard, "complainants with CAD software and a future product idea [would have] access to [U.S. import bans]."

Masimo's W1 watch is sold "in de minimis [trivial] quantities in the U.S., argues Apple, with the W1 not sold in the consumer channel, but more the clinical channel. Furthermore, Masimo's Freedom' watch "has never been sold," Apple offers.

The ITC's decision to waive some arguments is also raised, including a theory that Masimo waited 13 years after a provisional patent application to file a continuation application just after the launch of the Apple Watch, to try and incorporate the product into its patent designs.

For the patent itself, Apple also insists it is capable of prevailing in court over whether Masimo's patents are valid or not.



Read on AppleInsider

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 35
    I tend to agree with Apple on this arguments 
    ronnjibjas9940domikillroydewmechasmwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 35
    Live by the patent, die by the patent.
    9secondkox2
  • Reply 3 of 35
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,257member
    I thought Apple won the trial something like 5 out of 6 but it had to be unanimous so they lost. That's ridiculous. I bought a finger pulse oximeter from Innova. There's all kinds of these things on amazon and when I went to a patent for one it had a ton of other patents it referred to. I've always seen these attacks of Apple products as being a money grab. Why can I buy a standalone pulse oximeter for $30 and Apple can't include parts of one in their (my) watch? 
    jas9940domikillroywilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 35
    igorskyigorsky Posts: 759member
    My understanding is the basis for the parent is that it’s an oxymeter on a watch. How in the world was something so general given as a patent to begin with?  Ridiculous. 
    lordjohnwhorfinjas9940domikillroy9secondkox2watto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 35
    rob53 said:
    I thought Apple won the trial something like 5 out of 6 but it had to be unanimous so they lost. That's ridiculous. I bought a finger pulse oximeter from Innova. There's all kinds of these things on amazon and when I went to a patent for one it had a ton of other patents it referred to. I've always seen these attacks of Apple products as being a money grab. Why can I buy a standalone pulse oximeter for $30 and Apple can't include parts of one in their (my) watch? 
    Maybe because it's not as accurate as Masimo's.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 6 of 35
    igorsky said:
    My understanding is the basis for the parent is that it’s an oxymeter on a watch. How in the world was something so general given as a patent to begin with?  Ridiculous. 
    You would be aghast to find out the kind of things that get patented. Apple too has its fair share of ridiculous patents.
    jas9940domiwilliamlondondewmegrandact73
  • Reply 7 of 35
    ronnronn Posts: 661member
    rob53 said:
    I thought Apple won the trial something like 5 out of 6 but it had to be unanimous so they lost. That's ridiculous. 
    Apple neither won nor lost. The trial resulted in a hung jury which means they'll have a new trial. Maybe! There's no telling how a completely different jury will rule. Nevertheless, that trial itself has nothing to do with the ITC ruling that banned Apple Watch sales in the U.S.
  • Reply 8 of 35
    flydogflydog Posts: 1,127member
    igorsky said:
    My understanding is the basis for the parent is that it’s an oxymeter on a watch. How in the world was something so general given as a patent to begin with?  Ridiculous. 
    Your understanding is not correct. Maybe you should actually read the patents before spouting nonsense.

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US10945648B2/en

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US10912502B2/en

    This might be helpful too https://www.inquartik.com/blog/apple-watch-masimo-pulse-oximeter-litigation/

    williamlondongrandact73
  • Reply 9 of 35
    igorskyigorsky Posts: 759member
    flydog said:
    igorsky said:
    My understanding is the basis for the parent is that it’s an oxymeter on a watch. How in the world was something so general given as a patent to begin with?  Ridiculous. 
    Your understanding is not correct. Maybe you should actually read the patents before spouting nonsense.

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US10945648B2/en

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US10912502B2/en

    This might be helpful too https://www.inquartik.com/blog/apple-watch-masimo-pulse-oximeter-litigation/

    Thanks for clearing up. Appreciate the extra douchiness 👍
    lordjohnwhorfinkiehtandewmeglennhwatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 35
    Maybe we’ll be able to sideload it back in how funny would that be?
    40domiblastdoorwatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 35
    igorsky said:
    flydog said:
    igorsky said:
    My understanding is the basis for the parent is that it’s an oxymeter on a watch. How in the world was something so general given as a patent to begin with?  Ridiculous. 
    Your understanding is not correct. Maybe you should actually read the patents before spouting nonsense.

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US10945648B2/en

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US10912502B2/en

    This might be helpful too https://www.inquartik.com/blog/apple-watch-masimo-pulse-oximeter-litigation/

    Thanks for clearing up. Appreciate the extra douchiness 👍
    Clearing up what? It’s a ridiculous patent for an oxymeter on a watch, with tons of brand-X infringing products selling on Amazon for $30. Should never have been granted to begin with. Masimo only went after Apple because they saw dollar signs. F them.
    jas9940domikillroywilliamlondonstevenozbloggerblogpulseimageswatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 35
    ronnronn Posts: 661member
    Florian Mueller, App developer and IP authority & activist:
    Yes, Apple has obtained customs clearance of a Watch version *without* pulse oximetry.

    No, that one won't necessarily ever be actually imported and sold. They're still allowed for now to sell Watch with the feature and are still fighting for a longer-term enforcement stay.


  • Reply 13 of 35
    Apple believes they shouldn’t have to take pulse oximetry out? My kid thinks he shouldn’t have to do homework. 

    Seems to me Apple has already looked at cost vs gain and decided they will lose less shutting down the functionality vs paying for the licensing. Perhaps I’m wrong, but why else would Apple go to such lengths to avoid settling this? 
    edited January 16 williamlondonmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 14 of 35
    thttht Posts: 5,484member
    macbootx said:
    Apple believes they shouldn’t have to take pulse oximetry out? My kid thinks he shouldn’t have to do homework. 

    Seems to me Apple has already looked at cost vs gain and decided they will lose less shutting down the functionality vs paying for the licensing. Perhaps I’m wrong, but why else would Apple go to such lengths to avoid settling this? 
    As has been said so many times, Apple may truly believe they don't infringe.

    And absolutely, it's a minor feature for the Apple Watch. They have to weigh the benefits of including a feature that infringes on a patent versus removing it and redesigning so it doesn't infringe. For most companies, it's always better not to pay a licensing fee and design around any patents.
    40domiwilliamlondonmacbootxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 35
    flydog said:
    igorsky said:
    My understanding is the basis for the parent is that it’s an oxymeter on a watch. How in the world was something so general given as a patent to begin with?  Ridiculous. 
    Your understanding is not correct. Maybe you should actually read the patents before spouting nonsense.

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US10945648B2/en

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US10912502B2/en

    This might be helpful too https://www.inquartik.com/blog/apple-watch-masimo-pulse-oximeter-litigation/

    Seems to describe the Apple Watches sensor but also every other blood ox product as well. I guess the other products use a different wavelength?
    40domikillroylordjohnwhorfinwatto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 35
    igorsky said:
    My understanding is the basis for the parent is that it’s an oxymeter on a watch. How in the world was something so general given as a patent to begin with?  Ridiculous. 
    It’s not the fact that it’s an o I meter on a watch anymore than Chevy needs to pay for for a tachometer on a car. 

    It’s the novel technical way of doing it that apple has copied. They just need to figure out another way or pay the license fee just like every business move ever. 

    Or, using the third option, they could purchase Maximo, eliminating the issue altogether. However, this option introduce new hurdles, making Apple an actual medical device company - opening legal liabilities and accountability. That may be the reason apple hadn’t done this yet. 
    MplsPwatto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 35
    It’s as novel as a shovel.
    9secondkox2chasmwatto_cobra
  • Reply 18 of 35
    A couple of years ago Apple, poached a team from Masimo. Not illegal. 

    A couple of years later apple by way of a coincidence had a technology that infringed on Masimo technology. 

    One of three things happend. 

    1) Apple accidentally copied Masimo technology. 
    2)  The team apple poached refreshed it knowledge of Masimo technology. Without apple knowledge. 
    3) Apple told their poached team that we hired you to copy it so do it. 

    I think Apple thinks it has so much money it can push anyone out of its way. 

    Anyone who think Masimo technology is the same as the junk you buy for $30 on Amazon is sniffing glue. 


    The fact that the team from Masimo was able to recreate a technology that they developed at Masimo years later at apple. Should be all the judge needs to hear.




    9secondkox2williamlondongrandact73macbootxMplsP
  • Reply 19 of 35
    flydog said:
    igorsky said:
    My understanding is the basis for the parent is that it’s an oxymeter on a watch. How in the world was something so general given as a patent to begin with?  Ridiculous. 
    Your understanding is not correct. Maybe you should actually read the patents before spouting nonsense.

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US10945648B2/en

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US10912502B2/en

    This might be helpful too https://www.inquartik.com/blog/apple-watch-masimo-pulse-oximeter-litigation/

    Thanks for the links. They were useful.
    “wherein the protrusion comprises opaque material configured to substantially prevent light piping and comprises one or more chamfered edges” is the patent for which hardware infringement was cited by ITC. Huh?  An opaque plastic rim around the O2 sensor on the bottom of watch? I bet the Masimo W1 watch as that feature. I don't know about you but this sounds ridiculously trivial.  Masimo may be a troll if that is their trade secret 'invention' they are litigating on. If Masimo loses and has all of their patents invalidated , it may be schadenfreude time.


    ronnInspiredCodewatto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 35
    Apple’s arguments sound about right. No stretching of the truth.
    watto_cobra
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