Apple is trying to reinvent group audio chat with no cell or WiFi needed

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware

Apple is developing technology that would allow any number of willing people in close proximity to start an audio chat, using only an iPhone and a headset like AirPods, with no WiFi or cell service needed.

Two figures with headsets, connected to wireless transceivers and communication modules. Arrows illustrate audio communication between them.
Using an iPhone and a headset, many people could talk with others nearby.



Instantaneous communication like the Walkie-Talkie feature on the Apple Watch would be possible but with groups of people instead of individuals.

Unlike the Walkie-Talkie feature, this new technology would eliminate the roundtrip to Apple's cloud servers, a step that makes Walkie-Talkie unreliable at times. Also, unlike Walkie-Talkie, this would allow groups of willing people to talk to each other simultaneously.

In a newly published patent application Apple details a system for person-to-person communications directly between devices that would communicate directly rather than using the internet to transmit messages.

This technology would usher in a new communication experience, allowing users to select one or more people to talk to with seamless functionality, using only the iPhone in their pocket.

In practice, this would function much like AirDrop, but for conversations. With AirDrop, iPhone users can connect to another user and share files without needing to connect to a network or use the cloud for transmission. This proposed technology would allow one-to-many connections, where all group members can talk to each other at the same time.

For example, a group of people at a crowded festival could communicate with each other to discuss where they are going to meet up. The iPhone would display how close people are based on the same technology that shows the direction and distance to your AirTag.

Apple's Ultra Wide Band (UWB) technology already allows the iPhone and Apple Watch to detect the location of a person or object. UWB works a bit like echolocation, sending out radio waves and measuring the return signals.

The UWB chip is what gives iOS and watchOS the ability to get compass like directions to devices like the AirTag and get a live update of the distance.

This could also be used to meet new people. Those same festival goers could chat with other willing attendees, sharing tips or providing guidance on the best things to do. The distance and direction to other people could help groups meet up.

Diagram of multiple stick figures in a grid pattern, with arrows indicating communication between them and external nodes.
Apple's system could allow groups to talk to anyone nearby.



Another powerful use would be in emergency response situations. Teams could coordinate without needing the same physical walkie-talkie system and frequencies.

Cell phone networks are often overloaded or not functional in an emergency. Apple's technology would allow coordination even if cell connections are down.

The patent shows an interface where nearby people are displayed in a proximity circle. People inside the main circle are closest, and people farther away are shown in a larger circle.

The rings of the circle indicate the distance that this ad-hoc network between people would work.

Like AirDrop, the new technology would allow people to add members to the chat even if they're not in a user's contact list. People known to the user would display their names, while unknown people would also appear on the interface based solely on distance.

Simply tapping on a name would add someone to the conversation, and users could tap as many nearby people as they'd like. People could be added to a conversation as they came into range.

Presumably, unknown people could share a contact card and photo, like when you start a Message conversation with a group.

The patent application specifically shows an iPhone and a headset as the central technology for this to work. Still, it's not difficult to imagine using headsets like the Apple Vision Pro for these point-to-point communications.

As these systems get smaller, perhaps to the size of the much-rumored Apple glasses, having the ability to chat with people in your area directly would become even easier.

The patent application is credited to Esge B. Andersen and Cedrik Bacon. Andersen filed the original patent in 2022 with the same name.



Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 19
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 2,130member
    Perhaps more precisely: 'Apple is trying to reinvent group audio chat with no cell or WiFi network needed'.

    I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that the devices would link directly using the iPhones' WiFi radios. 
    beowulfschmidtwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 19
    I have been hoping for years that walkie-talkie would be exported to AirPods.  

    My vision was that one could create ad hoc voice groups in small geographies that allowed regular people to have the same sort of always on communications as you see for security teams (like in the movies, but in less exciting situations).  My use case was for situations like crowds or walking with a group down a city street where, with noise cancellation, you could have a conversation without yelling or needing to stand right next to someone.  

    And, in some future vision, if AI got good enough, it might be able to guess whom you were speaking with (maybe the start of the conversation is with all but then narrows to a pair when obvious whom the participants are).  And dynamically adjust volume so others can sort of hear but assume they don't really need to pay attention until context makes it clear that something was meant for everyone.
    darbus69shaminoAppleZuluwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 19
    shaminoshamino Posts: 536member
    AppleZulu said:
    I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that the devices would link directly using the iPhones' WiFi radios. 
    The article and the abstract of the patent say just that.  The devices establish a connection over an ad-hoc Wi-Fi network, much like how AirDrop works.
    My vision was that one could create ad hoc voice groups in small geographies that allowed regular people to have the same sort of always on communications as you see for security teams (like in the movies, but in less exciting situations).  My use case was for situations like crowds or walking with a group down a city street where, with noise cancellation, you could have a conversation without yelling or needing to stand right next to someone.
    The patent has several diagrams of a hypothetical UI.  See the collection of "Figure 6" drawings, and text starting from paragraph 95 (page 12).

    From my quick scan of the text, they are describing a UI where you are an icon in the center of the screen.  Surrounded by two circles, one representing the range within which you can detect people and open connections (e.g. Wi-Fi range), and an outer one representing the range within which you can detect people but not open ad-hoc network connections (e.g. Ultra Wideband range).  Nearby people are presented as icons in locations corresponding to their distance and direction from you.

    It then depicts you tapping on a person to initiate a conversation, the other person getting a confirmation, after which a connection is established.  They seem to be describing a separate point-to-point ad-hoc network link for each such conversation.

    They also depict connections over a public network to reach users further away than an ad-hoc network can reach, but without (I think) going through a central server.  Basically a peer-to-peer Internet link.

    It looks like they are deliberately not establishing multicast connections for group conversations, but are sticking with multiple unicast connections.  Which probably makes sense since you may want to selectively add/drop people, have multiple private conversations, and permit roaming/handoff between networks as your peers move closer and further away.

    If the UI for this feature is sufficiently, convenient, this could easily implement your vision.
    edited July 11 ForumPostwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 19
    mpantonempantone Posts: 2,150member
    AppleZulu said:
    Perhaps more precisely: 'Apple is trying to reinvent group audio chat with no cell or WiFi network needed'.

    I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that the devices would link directly using the iPhones' WiFi radios. 
    This walkie talkie function could easily be done over Bluetooth networking. We already know that Bluetooth is perfectly capable of handling audio data transfer.

    And we know that Bluetooth works fine without WiFi or cellular data connectivity. Just switch your phone to airplane mode then enable Bluetooth.
    edited July 11
  • Reply 5 of 19
    So….FireChat?
    NotSoMuchtiredskills
  • Reply 6 of 19
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 3,005member
    So… like Ericsson did decades ago? 
    nubusNotSoMuch
  • Reply 7 of 19
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 2,130member
    mpantone said:
    AppleZulu said:
    Perhaps more precisely: 'Apple is trying to reinvent group audio chat with no cell or WiFi network needed'.

    I would be willing to bet a dollar to a donut that the devices would link directly using the iPhones' WiFi radios. 
    This walkie talkie function could easily be done over Bluetooth networking. We already know that Bluetooth is perfectly capable of handling audio data transfer.

    And we know that Bluetooth works fine without WiFi or cellular data connectivity. Just switch your phone to airplane mode then enable Bluetooth.
    WiFi has greater range and capability of transmitting through walls and other obstacles, but sure, go with Bluetooth if that doesn’t matter to you. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 19
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,442member
    I can see this being popular on planes of all sizes. 
    It would be good if they allowed an emergency broadcast frequency so to speak. 


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 19
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,563member
    So… like Ericsson did decades ago? 
    It does seem to be similar in utility to the old Nextel push to talk feature that also didn't need cellular. After a hurricane knocked out cell systems here in Florida years ago, the Nextel/Sprint feature kept some of us in touch. Us oldies surely remember, but the younger iPhone users probably never heard of it. 
    https://www.rent2way.com/sprint-nextel-walkie-talkie/
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 10 of 19
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 2,130member
    I have been hoping for years that walkie-talkie would be exported to AirPods.  

    My vision was that one could create ad hoc voice groups in small geographies that allowed regular people to have the same sort of always on communications as you see for security teams (like in the movies, but in less exciting situations).  My use case was for situations like crowds or walking with a group down a city street where, with noise cancellation, you could have a conversation without yelling or needing to stand right next to someone.  

    And, in some future vision, if AI got good enough, it might be able to guess whom you were speaking with (maybe the start of the conversation is with all but then narrows to a pair when obvious whom the participants are).  And dynamically adjust volume so others can sort of hear but assume they don't really need to pay attention until context makes it clear that something was meant for everyone.
    With the noise level in a lot of restaurants, this could perhaps be useful for carrying on conversations with others at your table. As I think about it, though, a side effect of background noise cancellation and close-miked voice isolation could be amplified lip-smacking, chewing and swallowing, so that could be a little gross.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 19
    I've spent a bit of time working on an app which does this using Bluetooth LE (so I'm kind of hoping that would count as prior art re. the patent application...). It's still a little rough - but works on Android and iOS and is available in the respective app stores 'Murmur : Bluetooth Group Calls'. I've been using it for cycling with my family.

    Of course Apple can use Coded Phy for increased range, and send BLE advertisements when the screen is off - so their implementation will likely be free of the artificial restrictions on iOS.




    watto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 19
    AppleZulu said:
    WiFi has greater range and capability of transmitting through walls and other obstacles, but sure, go with Bluetooth if that doesn’t matter to you. 
    This isn't true - Both use 2.4GHz (and 5GHz does not go through walls anywhere near as well). Your WiFi router likely has a huge antennae on it which isn't really a fair fight - try using the WiFi hotspot from a phone for a fair comparison.

    There are also two levels of 'long range' in Bluetooth 5 - Coded Phy S2 and S8. They increase the range between handsets to ~100m. Apple doesn't expose these to developers for use in iOS - but all iPhones since iPhone X support it (they were briefly available in an iOS 13 beta I think). Android does have APIs for using these long range modes. From first hand experiments - Bluetooth LE Coded Phy S8 travels further than a WiFi hotspot from the same phone.
    muthuk_vanalingamgatorguyavon b7watto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 19
    shaminoshamino Posts: 536member
    jallison said:

    There are also two levels of 'long range' in Bluetooth 5 - Coded Phy S2 and S8. They increase the range between handsets to ~100m.
    Yes, but as with all things, there are tradeoffs.

    The Coded Phy systems gain greater range and reliability through transmission of additional (quite a lot of) error-correcting data.  So the overall bandwidth goes way down.  The high-speed 2Mbps data rate has a range of about 80% of the "standard" 1Mbps rate.  The Coded S2 PHY doubles the range, but cuts the bandwidth in half - to 500 kbps.  Coded S8 doubles that range (4x the standard range), but reduces the bandwidth by another 75% - to 125 kbps.

    Now, 125 kbps is sufficient for a voice call (voice land lines digitize to 56 kbps), but would that be enough for modern users who are used to the quality of a VoLTE call?




    muthuk_vanalingamjallison
  • Reply 14 of 19
    shamino said:

    Now, 125 kbps is sufficient for a voice call (voice land lines digitize to 56 kbps), but would that be enough for modern users who are used to the quality of a VoLTE call?
    125kbps is indeed sufficient for voice - many voices in fact. Addressing quality of a VoLTE call first - although the spec for Enhanced Voice Services goes up to 48kHz (FullBand) - Most 'Classic' Bluetooth headphones only support 16khz for voice calls (WideBand).  The mics in Airpods Pro 2 top out at 24kHz for voice calls (though the earbuds themselves do have another 'Spatial Audio' mode which plays 48khz stereo - and is currently used by facetime - I don't know if it's 2-way). Whilst AptX Adaptive Voice apparently supports 32khz (SuperWideBand) voice calls - I've not yet managed to find a phone that supports it. LE Audio is starting to appear now - the spec for this is mandatory 32kHz for voice calls. Anyhow - my point is that 32kHz mono is pretty much the most people are going to be able to do anything with (and for many, 16kHz - which really, for voices, does sound completely fine). 

    Another thing to bear in mind is that the codecs and bitrates chosen for Bluetooth headsets are mainly chosen to optimise battery life (and component cost) - so balancing the power needed for the codec complexity in the MCU to compress the audio vs the power needed to transmit the data. If you've already got a powerful CPU and a comparatively  huge battery - and aren't trying to make the whole thing fit in someone's ear - you can make some different codec choices and really get the bitrate down on a phone.

    The Opus codec ( https://opus-codec.org ) at 64kbps (less than half Coded Phy S8s 125kbps) is pretty much transparent (to me) 48kHz Stereo - which would be fine for a one-one call. This codec is used by Google's Pixel Buds Pro for its spatial audio implementation. 

    For group calls - and bearing in mind modern phones do not lack in compute - if you can tolerate a drop to wide-band (which most 'Classic' Bluetooth headphones would force anyway) Google has made their Lyra V2 codec open (and MIT licenced) - which goes down to just 3.2kbps - which would allow 40 channels on Coded Phy S8. It's worth checking the samples at ( https://opensource.googleblog.com/2022/09/lyra-v2-a-better-faster-and-more-versatile-speech-codec.html ).

    Meta also has MLow - which at 6kbps also does wide-band, but at a lower complexity than Opus. Meta seem to be keeping this proprietary though  ( https://engineering.fb.com/2024/06/13/web/mlow-metas-low-bitrate-audio-codec/ )

    Another low bitrate codec is LMCodec (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2303.12984). This goes down to 0.5kbps, and still sounds very acceptable (there was a project page with very impressive samples at ( https://mjenrungrot.github.io/chrome-media-audio-papers/publications/lmcodec/ ) - but it's doing odd things today). Voice codecs below 0.7kbps come under export controls in the UK ( https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/660d281067958c001f365abe/uk-strategic-export-control-list.pdf ), and I've heard 3.2kbps for some other countries, so I'm not expecting to see that appear in the wild.
    edited August 2 gatorguyavon b7shamino
  • Reply 15 of 19
    Correction (though both are permissive - so the intended meaning is unchanged):

    Google has made their Lyra V2 codec open (and MIT Apache-2.0 licenced)
  • Reply 16 of 19
    shaminoshamino Posts: 536member
    jallison said:
    125kbps is indeed sufficient for voice - many voices in fact. Addressing quality of a VoLTE call first - although the spec for Enhanced Voice Services goes up to 48kHz (FullBand) - Most 'Classic' Bluetooth headphones only support 16khz for voice calls (WideBand).  The mics in Airpods Pro 2 top out at 24kHz for voice calls (though the earbuds themselves do have another 'Spatial Audio' mode which plays 48khz stereo - and is currently used by facetime - I don't know if it's 2-way). Whilst AptX Adaptive Voice apparently supports 32khz (SuperWideBand) voice calls - I've not yet managed to find a phone that supports it. LE Audio is starting to appear now - the spec for this is mandatory 32kHz for voice calls. Anyhow - my point is that 32kHz mono is pretty much the most people are going to be able to do anything with (and for many, 16kHz - which really, for voices, does sound completely fine).
    You seem to be confusing sampling rates (Hz) and bit-rates.  Or at least it seems that way to me.  The sample rate (along with encoding and compression) is important for audio quality.  But the bit-rate is important for deciding how well you can transmit it over a particular radio interface.

    Land-line voice calls (that are digitzed to 56 kbps without compression) are actually 8kHz samples, with 7 bits per µ-Law sample.

    48 kHz samples is higher than CD quality (which is 44.1 kHz, 16-bit, stereo).  Assuming 7-bit µ-Law encoding and no compression (which is probably wrong), that would be 336 kbps.  Of course, different sample formats and compression algorithms will produce different results.
  • Reply 17 of 19
    shamino said:

    Land-line voice calls (that are digitzed to 56 kbps without compression) are actually 8kHz samples, with 7 bits per µ-Law sample.

    48 kHz samples is higher than CD quality (which is 44.1 kHz, 16-bit, stereo).  Assuming 7-bit µ-Law encoding and no compression (which is probably wrong), that would be 336 kbps. 


    I thought this was the G.711 codec and was 8kHz (NarrowBand) at 64kbps and 8bits per sample? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.711 ). Audio CDs are uncompressed LPCM encoded at 1411 kbps (with additional error correction). u-Law encoding is lossy compression, as samples are quantised to logarithmic boundaries (mapping a large 16bit dynamic range to a smaller more linearly distributed 8bit values). It halves the bitrate. Very little 'modern' media is sampled at 44.1kHz anymore, and the native sample rate of the audio hardware in your phone or laptop will likely be 48kHz (or a multiple of it). 44.1kHz was chosen originally for CDs due to some recording studios using video tapes to store recordings ( www1.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/audio/44.1.html ). Telephony codecs tend to be multiples of 8kHz (8, 16, 32, 48) .

    Anyhow - no - not confused, perhaps not being clear though - I don't think we're in disagreement. Different audio codecs have different processing costs (and also latency), and for a given frequency can give higher or lower bitrates, or for a given bitrate give higher or lower signal bandwidth. As a very crude rule of thumb - You can pick two from:
    1. Low bitrate (Small packets on the network->short transmit duration->low radio transmit power consumption)
    2. High signal bandwidth, (FullBand vs Narrowband)
    3. Low processing cost (doesn't require expensive chips or a large battery to power it)
    ... depending on which codec you choose to encode/decode the audio. Decode is often simpler than Encode too - so on headphones for instance, it may only be feasible to receive in one codec (such as FullBand AAC), and transmit in another (such as WideBand SBC - which also has a lower latency). 

    My main point was that audio codecs are chosen to suit. Bluetooth Earbuds have tiny batteries, so they use codecs that optimise for power usage, and as they require FullBand (48kHz) audio for listening to music - the encoded bitrate is quite high. If you're transmitting from phone to phone though - with comparatively huge batteries and a far more processing power - the constraints are different. You can use codecs that optimise for low bitrate instead, like LMCodec, and get a really low bitrate (0.5kbps) and still have WideBand (16kHz) voice - which is massively better than say, the G.711 codec, which is incredibly simple (low processing cost), but has a pretty high bitrate (64kbps) and only gives you NarrowBand (8kHz).
  • Reply 18 of 19
    shaminoshamino Posts: 536member
    jallison said:
    shamino said:
    Land-line voice calls (that are digitzed to 56 kbps without compression) are actually 8kHz samples, with 7 bits per µ-Law sample.
    I thought this was the G.711 codec and was 8kHz (NarrowBand) at 64kbps and 8bits per sample? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.711 ).
    As I understand it Europe uses 8-bit A-Law encoding, with 64 kbps.  But in North America and Japan, land-line voice calls use 7-bit µ-Law encoding, using the high bit of a DS0 link for signaling purposes.  Hence 56 kbps of in-band data carried on that 64 kbps channel (and also the reason dial-up modems have a theoretical limit of 56 kbps).

    When there is a connection between an A-Law system and a µ-Law system, the data is encoded with A-Law.
    edited August 11
  • Reply 19 of 19
    jallison said:
    I've spent a bit of time working on an app which does this using Bluetooth LE (so I'm kind of hoping that would count as prior art re. the patent application...). It's still a little rough - but works on Android and iOS and is available in the respective app stores 'Murmur : Bluetooth Group Calls'. I've been using it for cycling with my family.

    Of course Apple can use Coded Phy for increased range, and send BLE advertisements when the screen is off - so their implementation will likely be free of the artificial restrictions on iOS.




    In my opinion, Apple should consider reintroducing APIs for Coded Phy, as there are numerous applications that could benefit from the extended range it offers. Personally, I was working on an app for auto-tracking using an iPhone and Apple Watch. Now, with the addition of Apple DockKit and the Vision framework, this idea is even more appealing. You can combine object tracking with the Vision API and enhance it with BLE when the tracked subject moves out of range or behind an obstacle.

    If you're familiar with the Soloshot product (https://soloshot.com/), which uses BLE for auto-tracking with a tag, you'll know the concept is great, but the product itself is difficult to use and suffers from poor hardware and software quality. As a surfer, I would love to see an app that can track me using person detection (via pose or other methods) and location with an Apple Watch.

Sign In or Register to comment.